Cross Strokes vs Cross Rolls

[dbny]

What is the difference between these two? I recently read the definitions somewhere, but it made no sense to me, and in the "Swing Rolls vs Cross Rolls" thread, Lee states that the Paso Doble has Cross Rolls, which I thought were Cross Strokes. Roller dance does not have (or didn't when I did it eons ago) two different names for a cross in front. In fact, as I recall, there were only XFO and XFI for "cross in front outside" and "cross in front inside."

[jenlyon60]

Cross Roll - A roll started forward with the feet crossed in front or backward with the feet crossed behind. The impetus is gained form the outside edge of the skating foot as it become the free foot. Note: A roll is, by definition, a short or long, forward or backward edge, which curves in the opposite direction to the preceding edge thus creating the rolling movement that gives the step its name.

Cross Stroke - A step started with the feet crossed so that the impetus or power is gained from the outside edge of the foot that is becoming the free foot. Note - the legs cross above the knees.

[dbny]

Your definition for cross roll is exactly what I have been taught as cross strokes, and the one for cross stroke, could be a simple crossover, as no edge is specified nor is the next stroke.

[jenlyon60]

I'm sorry... I could have explained better. Cross-(whatever) is change of foot, same direction, same edge. Generally outside-outside, although I suppose if one were contorted enough, one could do an inside-to-inside cross stroke.

Paso is a good example of repeated forward cross-rolls, at the end of the pattern, right before the lady's quick swing mohawk.

The steps in the Argentine tango about 3/4 of the way through, (after the lady's twizzle and cross-3) are repeated backward cross-rolls.

Technically speaking I would consider a cross-roll to be a longer cross-stroke. One in which I use more power and drive the edge "curvier"

And this is probably still fuzzy.

[dbny]

Just came back from my lesson and coach, who really knows her stuff, said the term "cross roll" is not in any USFSA documentation for skaters, coaches or judges. The correct term is cross stroke. I'm guessing that cross roll may be a UK term for the same thing.

[Lee]

"Cross roll" and "cross step" both show up in the Skate Canada technical manuals.

A cross step is where the free foot crosses in front (or behind) the skating foot below the knee. A cross roll is where the free foot crosses above the knee.

[dbny]

I can't cross my free foot only below the knee off ice, and don't see how this is possible without either holding one's knees very tightly together or bowing them out and stepping onto the side of one's foot.

I'm taking "free foot" to mean "free leg", otherwise, one would have to hike the free foot up to one's waist to cross it above the knee.

Has anyone ever seen the Canadian version of a "cross step" demo'ed? I'm convinced that, in spite of the definition, (which BTW, I think I saw in an ISI book) these are the same thing.

[Lee]

Uh, yeah, I have... I have a daughter who has passed the Diamond dance test (Rhumba, Ravensburger, Yankee and Romantica) -- I've watched for years...and out of interest (as a former test chair), read the Canadian rulebook and tech stuff. It *does* exist...

[Elsy2]

Hmmm....a cross roll is defined in the USFSA rulebook, and for 2003 the definition is highlighted in grey meaning that this is a change from last year's book.

DG 5.14 Cross Roll (XR): A roll started forward with the feet crossed in front or behind. The impetus is gained from the outside edge of the skating foot as it becomes the free foot. In this case, the change to the curve in the opposite direction creates a rolling movement.

Also:

DG 5.08 Cross Stroke (XS): A forward or backward step started with the skating foot crossing in front or behind, respectively, the previous skating foot so that the legs cross above the knee and with impetus being gained from the outer edge of the foot which is becoming the free foot.

DG 5.05 Cross Step Forward (XF): A step in which the free foot is placed on the ice along the outer edge side of the skating foot with the calf of the free leg crossed in front of the shin of the skating leg. No impetus is gained from this stroke.

Don't worry dbny...your coach was probably just refering to freeskating and not thinking about dance terms.

Let the discussion continue ;)

[dbny]

Originally posted by Elsy2
Don't worry dbny...your coach was probably just refering to freeskating and not thinking about dance terms.

Not worried :lol: but it does make sense that she wouldn't recognize or even think of a dance term. The XF definition sounds like what I know from roller dance, and it seems to me that the XS definition would apply to crossovers also. The odd thing is though, that the cross strokes in the Juv MIF fit both the XR and the XF definitions. At least these definitions make sense. :lol:

[TashaKat]

.... in the UK we have 'Cross Rolls' and 'Cross Cuts' .....

Forward Cross Rolls ...... FO edge, free leg crosses in front onto a FO edge

Back Cross Rolls ...... BO edge, free leg crosses behind onto a BO edge and so on

Back Cross Cuts ...... BO edge, free leg crosses IN FRONT onto a BO edge

There's also a 'Forward Cross Cut' but I'm not sure if it's called that ...... FO edge, free leg crosses behind onto a FO edge!!

:twisted:

L x

[kar5162]

Originally posted by dbny
The odd thing is though, that the cross strokes in the Juv MIF fit both the XR and the XF definitions. At least these definitions make sense. :lol:

Actually no. The guidelines for Juv MIF state that cross steps are not acceptable. This makes sense as Elys2's definition states that "No impetus is gained from this stroke" and the focus of Juv MIF is power.

[jasmine]

I just had to go off and watch my ISU video Instructional Video of Ice Dancing 1992 to get definitions of these steps. They show both cross strokes and cross rolls on the video and I have come to the conclusion that they mean exactly the same thing.

Zhulin demonstrates a cross-stroke "A cross stroke is a step started with the feet crossed so that the impetus or power is gained from the outside edge of the foot that is becoming the free foot. The legs cross above the knees."

Usova demonstrates a roll "A roll is a short or long forward or backward edge which curves in the opposite edge to the preceding edge" and then cross rolls and swing rolls "Variations on this are cross rolls and swing rolls".

But what they are each doing looks identical to me ...! 8O :lol:

These are what are described in charts as XR. But XF is something else, it is a cross in front chassee. The difference is that XR is on continuous opposing outside edges (eg LFO with RFO XR), whereas XF is continuous on the same edge. (eg LFO with RFI XF)

[dbny]

Originally posted by kar5162
Actually no. The guidelines for Juv MIF state that cross steps are not acceptable. This makes sense as Elys2's definition states that "No impetus is gained from this stroke" and the focus of Juv MIF is power.

Oops! Quite right, don't know how I missed that as I love hearing the rip on my cross strokes and wish I could go as fast on the B as the F ones.

[dbny]

Originally posted by jasmine
I just had to go off and watch my ISU video Instructional Video of Ice Dancing 1992 to get definitions of these steps. They show both cross strokes and cross rolls on the video and I have come to the conclusion that they mean exactly the same thing.

Thank you! ITA.

I think cross step (XF and XR) is the only one that is actually different, providing no impetus (as kar5162 has emphasized.)