Do I need to strengthen my knees?

[icenut84]

Hi all
I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice. I skate weekly but I keep getting aching knees for the rest of the day after skating. Last week, both knees were aching, and this week my right knee is ok (pretty much), but my left (landing) knee is aching quite a lot. It probably is a lot to do with skating - we spent about 10 mins of my lesson today on loop jumps. It's really bugging me though - I'm guessing your knee isn't supposed to ache like this after every practice (which mine has been). My dad (an ex-long distance runner) says I need to build strength in my knees and I think he's probably right. I'm very wary about weight training because I don't want to get really big muscles. I meant to ask my coach about it today but I forgot till after, and I won't see her till next Saturday now. I was planning to ask a dance teacher I know at college on Tuesday, but I thought it'd be a good idea to throw it out here first, as you lot might be able to advise me more considering you know more about skating and the particular stresses of it. What should I do? :( I do get exercise outside of skating, I walk a lot (have done for years) and also do a limbering (strength and flexibility) class once a week. I don't know what to do about this. Can anyone help? :cry:

[jasmine]

Do you swim? Swimming is great for knees, especially breast-stroke (with that froggie-like kick).

I swim once or twice a week and it really sorts out any knee problems, but my coach's advice is to swim AFTER skating or on a day when you are NOT skating and not just before it. Don't know why but swimming seems to stretch and soften the muscles too much to skate well immediately afterwards.

You could also try doing alternate single leg squats (or alternatively, wallsits) at home twice a week taking up a sit spin position, and this will help with your sit spins too. Find a couple of chairs and stand in between them. Lower yourself into a sit spin position on one leg, hold for a few seconds, then rise. (When in sit spin position, shoulders are over knees, weight is on squatting leg, free leg is stretched out in front with foot turned out). Repeat on other leg. Gradually stop using your hands to give support. This exercise is a KILLER and I HATE doing it but it definitely helps!

[sk8pics]

I do leg curls and leg extensions faithfully at my gym, 2-3 times a week, and I never have any knee pain despite a past history of some knee problems. I do 3 sets of 12 repetitions, one leg at a time so that each leg is forced to work equally. Although your situation will be different from mine, I'm doing 55 pounds for the leg extensions (which work the quads) and 60 pounds on the curls (which work the hamstrings. I started at about 30 pounds on each exercise. Don't skip one set, you need to strengthen both your quads and your hamstrings or you will end up with knee troubles. You probably don't need to worry about bulking up doing exercises like these, but you will get some muscle definition on the outside of your thighs, which is a good thing to me!

Good luck!
Pat

[skateflo]

Two points:
1. After you get off the ice, stretch your quads by bending your leg up to your tush using your opposite hand. Do it gently and hold for 20 seconds. Also stretch your hamstrings and your calves. Do it in the locker room or such - don't wait until you get home from the rink. This is when your muscles are most warm and pliable and less likely to be injured (micro tears of the muscle.)

2. Knees hurting can be caused by many things but to help your quads and at the same time protect your knees try the following:
Sit on the floor with your legs out in front you can lean against a wall if you want) and place a small rolled towel behind your knee. Now tighten your quad muscle and focus on pushing your knee against the towel. If you are doing it correctly, you will be able to feel a small muscle down by your inner knee tighten. This is an important muscle to keep your knee tracking right as well. If your knee is a clock and 12 is near your toes, the muscle will be at 8. You should be able to feel it tighten with your fingers.

Focus on going up and down stairs "quietly" or on a Step if you have one. I like using my Pylo ball against the wall, legs just less than shoulder width and out from my torso about 12-18 inches. Now roll down the wall until your legs are 90 degrees to your knees - no more! Tighten your quads and that little muscle, hold for a count of 8, push back up using your quads and pushing from your heels.

Skaters frequently get into muscle strength imbalance which makes matters worse - so be sure you stregthn your calves as well!

Good luck, go slowly with your exercise, and never do it without a few minutes of a warm-up to get blood moving and warming your muscles.

Let us know how you make out!

[skaternum]

To add to what's already been said:

You can't really strengthen your knees. You strengthen the muscles in your thighs, so they can provide support to your knees. You mostly strengthen the quadriceps and the hamstrings.

I think you really should go see a physical therapist. He/she can take a look at your knees & thighs and give you some strengthening exercises specific to you.

And keep an eye on it. It could be something more than weak supporting muscles. (She says, with experience.) If it keeps hurting, see a doctor!

[peachstatesk8er]

Originally posted by skaternum
To add to what's already been said:

You can't really strengthen your knees. You strengthen the muscles in your thighs, so they can provide support to your knees. You mostly strengthen the quadriceps and the hamstrings.

I think you really should go see a physical therapist. He/she can take a look at your knees & thighs and give you some strengthening exercises specific to you.

And keep an eye on it. It could be something more than weak supporting muscles. (She says, with experience.) If it keeps hurting, see a doctor!


ITA. And, since this has been a persistent problem and pain you should get it checked out. A PT can suggest exercises and appropriate weight training to strengthen the right muscles. Don't be afraid of weights; you can build strength without building bulk. When I first started jumping my legs got bigger from the muscles that I had not really used like that before, but when I started with weights, my thighs actually got smaller from all the toning. :)

And, it will help with imbalances. My trainer measured my legs before I started with the weight training and found that my right thigh, which is my landing leg, was 1 1/2 inches bigger than my left thigh! 8O Talk about an imbalance! Weight training helped even it out.

[melanieuk]

I also train with very light weights, twice a week.
It makes a huge difference to the power you feel in your legs.

After skating, I sometimes get vaguely achey knees too.

I've been warned about kneecap injuries, specifically caused by the hamstring being pressed against the calve muscle.

Logically, if they are pressed together (like in a low sit spin) there is enormous pressure on the kneecap.

[anital]

icenut,
I agree with everything everyone else has said and doubly recommend swimming, but I want to ask, do you have any blood clotting problems? I had a stroke and the condition I have (my blood clots too easily) is actually more common in people my ages joints. I know a guy who had a blood clot in his knee that caused it to really ache (he's a triathlete) and it was easily fixed once diagnosed.
Also, I'd definitely recommend a non-jumping skating session at least once a week to let your knees have a break. :)
Good luck, and if in doubt, don't be scared to see the doctor!

[kayskate]

My knees will ache is I do too many loop jumps or land too many cheated doubles. I wear a support on my landing knee which helps. I also try to spread out skills during a skating session and do not jump until I am warmed up. I also intersperse jumping w/ other skills. I agree stretching before and after skating is very important.

Kay

[JDC1]

I really think the first thing to do is make sure it's nothing serious and then work on strengthening your quad muscles. Also, how do your skates fit? When you bend your knee are you getting a good knee bend or are you trying to force a knee bend? I had pain in my meniscus(?) the muscle that runs along side your knee and it felt swollen and sore so I made and appt with a doc since you really have to baby your knees. Also next time your practice don't spin on 1 foot at all and see if your knees feel better. I noticed once I began spinning on 1 foot is when my knees really hurt but my old boots didn't fit right.

[garyc254]

Yes, go get professional medical advise first just to make sure it is nothing serious.

My girlfriend's daughter (age 16) was having some minor pain in her right knee. At a lesson last week, her coach had her trying to land her doubles over and over and over. By the end of the day, her knees were both extremely sore and swollen.

She went to her doctor who scheduled her an appointment with an orthopaedist for later this week.

Her doctor thinks she may have to give up jumping completely. :(

So, YES. Go check it out first. It may save you from severely injuring it later.

[Mrs Redboots]

You are not alone in having aching knees. I do, too - and like you, I was worried about them. Then I read somewhere that one of the main causes of aching is that it is a lot easier to strengthen the muscles in our thighs than it is to stretch the tendons that attach them to our knees.

I find that mine ache particularly if I do a great many up-down-up exercises, like changes-of-edge, or what the Americans call "power pulls" (one-footed slaloms). I now keep support straps in my skate bag, and strap them up if I'm having a "bad knee day", which seems to do the trick - often, I only have to strap them for half the session.

Having said that, I am assuming that where they ache is at the front of your knees, not at the back! And I agree that it's probably worth having it checked in case your cartilage needs seeing to - but I wouldn't think that likely at your age, far more likely just to be that your tendon needs strengthening.

[wannask8]

icenut, if you are getting this pain routinely now, get to an orthopedist and get checked out first to make sure it’s nothing serious. Don’t do what I did: years ago, I waited too long to get a decent doctor to check out my knee pain, and ended up with muscle atrophy and will always need to keep up some kind of physical therapy regimen to maintain sufficient quad strength. This is why I can only skate an hour a week. So see someone now. They can then refer you to someone who can design an exercise program that’s right for your physiology and the demands of your particular lifestyle (including skating). BTW, for my particular problem (where the kneecap slightly jumps its track) the breaststroke kick is not recommended, as it tends to pull the kneecap off-track a bit.

In the meantime, in addition to the above suggestions, you might try icing your knees when you get home from practice. This does wonders for me. Make sure you don’t put ice directly on your skin (cover with a thin towel), and remove it if it feels uncomfortable. Ten minutes on/ten minutes off a couple of times is good for me. Over-the-counter NSAIDs like ibuprofen are also helpful, but I don’t like to rely on them too much, and you definitely don’t want to be using them during practice (you can feel too good and overdo and injure yourself further).

Good luck, feel better, and let us know how it goes.

-- wannask8

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by wannask8
Over-the-counter NSAIDs like ibuprofen are also helpful, but I don’t like to rely on them too much, and you definitely don’t want to be using them during practice (you can feel too good and overdo and injure yourself further). Of course, here in the UK we can get Ibuleve gel and its imitators (mostly from Boots), which is excellent for sore knees, but except in an emergency (such as a test or a competition) only to be used after skating, and then only if it hurts!

[icenut84]

Thanks so much for all the good advice anyone. I'll definitely get it checked out, just to make sure. I've been meaning to get an appointment with an osteopath for my back, so I'll get it for my knees too. Hopefully they can advise me on specific exercises etc too. Thanks again!! I'll let you all know how it goes when I get the appointment.

[jenlyon60]

One more thing... unless a female's hormones are way wacky or you dehydrate yourself dreadfully or take male hormone supplements, females generally do not "bulk out" from a moderate amount of weight training. Even a moderate amount of heavy weight training.

[skateflo]

Many of you have raised excellant points - certainly getting it checked out is primary.

But reading someone else's post reminded me of something that Judy Blumberg pointed out to me during an off-ice session at AN. When I bend my knee, I was going too far inward rather than keeping my knee over the 2nd toe. And she was right! It is a bad habit that I wasn't even aware of - just a tendency to pitch my knee a little too far inward put a lot of stress on my knee. It also made me realize that my thigh muscles were out of shape because as I focused on straightening my bend, I could feel the strain in the muscles.

Just thought I would pass along this reminder to also look at one's skating technique even in the most simplest things......

[icenut84]

I've just booked an appointment with an osteopath for tomorrow afternoon. I was sitting in a class today, completely normal, and my left knee (the one that was hurting most before too) started to really hurt. I just had my legs normal, 90 degrees, and I got aching and pain on the knee. The kind of area was on the right edge of the knee cap and the area next to it, the more fleshy area. :( I rubbed it gently pretty much all lesson, which warmed my knee up a bit and made it a bit better. It hasn't been hurting 24/7 this week since Saturday but it has ached off and on. I'll let you all know what happens with the osteopath tomorrow. :(

[icenut84]

I didn't go to the osteopath. I cancelled the appointment - they charge 30-something quid just for the first appointment!!! And £24 a time for any follow ups! Good grief. Ridiculous. And I'd wanted it to be for my back aswell as my knee, and my mum said they wouldn't do both in one session. I'd probably be lucky to get treatment in the first session too. Hmph. Anyway, I went to the doctor's this morning. It was mainly for something else (Doc thinks I have a virus - I've been feeling rotten and had zero energy since last Friday), so I've got to take ibrupofen for that now apparently, and I asked her about my knee too. She thinks it's probably because of skating, and explained about tendons etc in and around the knee, and basically said the best thing to do was "rest". :cry: As in don't skate for a couple of weeks, then if it's not better, go back and she might give me some anti-inflammatory stuff or something. So that rules out skating tomorrow (I have a day off college so I was hoping to go, but I doubt I'd have the energy anyway - I felt terrible when I went into college today). I thought I'd have to miss Saturday too, and maybe the Saturday after that, but it might be ok. I told my dad (he's an ex-long distance runner) and he said that as an athlete they never go to the doc because the treatment is always "rest". He said as long as I'm not in a lot of pain I'll probably be fine, and said I need to start doing strengthening exercises for the muscles etc around the knees. What does everyone think? I'm not in loads of pain - mostly it's just aching, and even that's not all the time, and I really don't want to have to miss skating. Any more advice? ;) :(

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by icenut84
As in don't skate for a couple of weeks, then if it's not better, go back and she might give me some anti-inflammatory stuff or something. So that rules out skating tomorrow (I have a day off college so I was hoping to go, but I doubt I'd have the energy anyway - I felt terrible when I went into college today). I thought I'd have to miss Saturday too, and maybe the Saturday after that, but it might be ok. I told my dad (he's an ex-long distance runner) and he said that as an athlete they never go to the doc because the treatment is always "rest". He said as long as I'm not in a lot of pain I'll probably be fine, and said I need to start doing strengthening exercises for the muscles etc around the knees. What does everyone think? I'm not in loads of pain - mostly it's just aching, and even that's not all the time, and I really don't want to have to miss skating. Any more advice? ;) :( If you have a virus, don't even think about skating this week. I know, I know - but it's so bad for you to train with a virus - you don't want to risk CFS/ME, do you? Or, at that, risk a bad fall and injuring yourself. Take a week off, and you'll be fine again by next Saturday.

I should listen to your Dad, who almost definitely knows what he's talking about, and may have some useful exercises to show you - when you are better! Use Ibuleve gel after skating (never, ever before except in an emergency like a test or competition), and buy and use a knee brace if it hurts while you are skating.

And try to push yourself to do some, but not too many of the exercises that make it hurt each time you skate, to strenghten it. There's a fine line (I haven't quite discovered it yet!) between doing enough to strengthen your knee tendons and doing so much that they hurt!

[jasmine]

Some knee-strengthening exercises from internet ...

http://skiing.about.com/cs/tp/knee-strength.htm
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.backandbodycente r.com%2Fmedinfo-Injury-CCELK.htm
http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:Jl6JfmliuOMC:www.acs.ohio-state.edu/units/osuhosp/patedu/Materials/PDFDocs/exer-reh/physical/body-flx.pdf+strengthening+exercises+knees&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Also, practise your landing position on or off-ice; jumping and landing without rotation onto soft knee bend, then rise into landing position. Practise on both legs, so they become equally strong.

[jenlyon60]

I just got this book.. Conditioning for Skating : Off-Ice Techniques for On-Ice Performance by Carl Poe

It gives a lot of different exercises and training suggestions for skaters. Singles, pairs and dance.

only cost around $12 from Amazon.

Apparently Poe has worked with the USFSA on off-ice training programs for the top skaters.

[icenut84]

Originally posted by Mrs Redboots
If you have a virus, don't even think about skating this week. I know, I know - but it's so bad for you to train with a virus - you don't want to risk CFS/ME, do you? Or, at that, risk a bad fall and injuring yourself. Take a week off, and you'll be fine again by next Saturday.

What do you mean, risk CFS/ME? :?:

I should listen to your Dad, who almost definitely knows what he's talking about, and may have some useful exercises to show you - when you are better! Use Ibuleve gel after skating (never, ever before except in an emergency like a test or competition), and buy and use a knee brace if it hurts while you are skating.

Ok, I might do that. What does Ibuleve gel do? Does it relieve pain or something? Also, a knee brace sounds like a good idea - is that to keep the joint warm? Is that what you're meant to do? (I'm a bit confused anyway - the doc said to ice it when it hurts, and my dad said to use heat). Last week it did hurt when I was skating - it ached quite a bit.

And try to push yourself to do some, but not too many of the exercises that make it hurt each time you skate, to strenghten it. There's a fine line (I haven't quite discovered it yet!) between doing enough to strengthen your knee tendons and doing so much that they hurt!

Thanks Annabel. :) And thanks everyone else too. All this is most appreciated. :) I was thinking it might be a good idea to go to some kind of sports injury clinic place? I thought maybe they'd know more what they were talking about than the doc, lol (she wasn't my normal doctor). My parents weren't happy about me taking the ibrupofen either - it says on the label to take one tablet 3 times a day after food, when required. I took one but I haven't taken any more. She wasn't going to give me a prescription, she just mentioned it (also mentioned neurofen), but I asked if she was going to give me one because I wasn't sure what I should be getting.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by icenut84
What do you mean, risk CFS/ME? :?:Chronic fatigue syndrome, they call it, or post-viral myalgic encephalitis. That awful illness where you simply can't get any energy, no matter how much you rest.... people your age seem even more prone to it than others.

Ok, I might do that. What does Ibuleve gel do? Does it relieve pain or something? Also, a knee brace sounds like a good idea - is that to keep the joint warm? Is that what you're meant to do? (I'm a bit confused anyway - the doc said to ice it when it hurts, and my dad said to use heat). Last week it did hurt when I was skating - it ached quite a bit. The ibuleve gel is pain-relieving; it's basically ibuprofen that you apply topically, instead of swallowing tablets (I rather agree with your parents, you don't want to be taking painkillers the whole time, even ibuprofen). You want to ice your knee if it's sore after skating, and then put the gel on, I think. Incidentally, Neurofen is jsut a brand name for ibuprofen tablets.

The brace or bandage - most sports shops sell them, or will get them for you - is good if you know it's going to be sore but you still have your lesson to come.....

The sports medicine clinic would cost as much as the osteopath, if not more, but might be worth it.

It occurs to me - have you asked your coach about it? Often coaches are used to this sort of thing and can give you advice.

[Andie]

Originally posted by Mrs Redboots
Chronic fatigue syndrome, they call it, or post-viral myalgic encephalitis. That awful illness where you simply can't get any energy, no matter how much you rest.... people your age seem even more prone to it than others.

My friend (the one in Northern Ireland) got that when he was 12, he got over it when he was about 14, he's told me all about it so as soon as you said that I gasped. It doesn't seem like something you should risk getting! :(

[icenut84]

Originally posted by Mrs Redboots
Chronic fatigue syndrome, they call it, or post-viral myalgic encephalitis. That awful illness where you simply can't get any energy, no matter how much you rest.... people your age seem even more prone to it than others.

Well, that's kinda how I've felt. Some nights I went to bed at 9pm, didn't get up till about 10.30am the next morning and as soon as I was up I was exhausted. I just didn't have any energy at all. I was eating properly and getting enough sleep, so I don't know what it was. I was tired last week (though that might be because I was quite stressed), and started to feel bad on Friday. I went skating on Saturday, although my knee ached a bit and I was pretty tired. I'm a lot better now (Friday), but up till about Wed this week I didn't have any energy at all. I was still tired on Thursday and I'm still a little tired now, but nowhere near as bad. Does that sound like the kind of thing you mean? Although it didn't last as long as Andie described. I've got a blood test on Tuesday too, to check my iron levels (I asked for one) because my mum thought that might be the cause of my tiredness, i.e. anaemia. She might be right too, as the time I felt worst was when I was on my period so that makes sense. What do you think?

The brace or bandage - most sports shops sell them, or will get them for you - is good if you know it's going to be sore but you still have your lesson to come.....

Does it keep the joint warm? Is that why people use them? If I do skate tomorrow I probably won't be able to get one beforehand, but I might get one for next time.

It occurs to me - have you asked your coach about it? Often coaches are used to this sort of thing and can give you advice.

I told her about my knee last week, and she said I should go to the doctor first. If I do skate tomorrow, I'll describe exactly how it feels and tell her what the doc said (rest, ice when hurts, and if it's still bad go back and she might give me some anti-inflammatory stuff), and see what she thinks. I can't decide whether to go skating tomorrow or not - I really want to, and I am feeling a lot better from the viral thing, but my knee still aches a little sometimes. My mum said to play it by ear, see how I'm feeling. My dad said I'll probably be fine if I'm not in a lot of pain (which I'm not), and I need to build up strength. Dunno what to do for the best. I know the easiest thing to say is to just not go but... I really want to! :(

[JDC1]

Icenut, sounds like you've gotten good advice! I don't know if we're having similar problems or not but I have "runners knee" and I have to wear a brace (velcro-lycra thingy available at drug stores - 15 dollars) for 3 weeks, no spinning or jumping with left leg and no squatting or lunging with weights and no lunging on the ice. Then I go back to the orthopedist and he'll see if that's helped. My pain varies between OUCH and ouch but since it's present even when I am not excercising I figured I should get it checked out. Anyway, he has me icing my knee after I do any excercise and taking advil everyday no matter what but advil gives me a stomach ache so I'm just playing that by ear.

[icenut84]

Well, I did skate this morning and my knee seems to be fine. I didn't do any loops or flips at all last week, and this morning I didn't do any jumps at all, not even a waltz jump (since they all mean landing on my left leg and I thought it might make it worse). I'm ok for spins since I'm spinning on my right foot (not really practicing the backspin yet), so practicing them is no problem. I don't know what it'll feel like for this next week, so I'll just see how it goes and if it starts to hurt again I'll go and see my normal doctor (he's on holiday next week, apparently). And I'll try to exercise it, knee bends etc.

Thanks so much everyone for your advice! Very much appreciated. :)

[Mrs Redboots]

It *is* possible to damage your left knee through landing poorly. My husband has done just that - 90% of the time it's fine, but if he does more than just a couple of jumps, it then hurts for the rest of the week. So he has moved over to dance - and now, when he does jump, it is so much better than it used to be - time was, when he landed a loop jump, the whole rink would hear this awful crash and turn round to see who had fallen. Mostly he hadn't fallen at all, just landed like a rock! But now he is as light and as high as you would wish too see - and I yell at him to STOP DOING THAT because I don't want to have to put up with his sore knee for a week.....

[coco]

I saw this thread last week and thought it timely since my knees were really bothering me after skating, particularly on the inside. One thing that helped me this week was stretching the inner thigh and hamstrings - A LOT. One helpful stretch in particular is to sit straddled, but w/your back on the floor and your legs against a wall. Sit as close to the wall as possible, roll onto your back, walk your feet up the wall, and "scooch" your rear until it and the backs of your thighs and calves touch the wall. Then gently and SLOWLY let your legs straddle until you feel tension. Stay in this position for as long as you can, taking deep breaths.

((((((whoever has chronic fatigue))))))) hang in there!