Timing of Jumps on and off of the ice?

[singerskates]

Why is the timing of jumps so different? Jumps work out on ice; Salchow, but then not off ice. Then there are jumps that work off ice easily but on ice mess up; Loop, Flip and Lutz, just enough that you get down graded. But it seems the Waltz jump and the Toe Loop work both off-ice and on-ice equally well. Why is it so hard to get my timing right for the Loop, Flip and Lutz on ice? My coach says that I'm pulling out my arms too fast while I'm in the air and that my free leg is too loose as well yet I'm still getting the rotation but can't keep my free leg in front long enough for the landing to work properly. What to do to fix this besides more practice? Help!!!

[slusher]

Without doing a skating jump can you consistently rotate the revolutions off ice? From the last few training seminars I've been to with top coaches, they have an emphasis on off ice training and the ability to rotate off ice before even getting to the ice.

Eg: For a triple, be able to do a triple rotation in the air on the spot from a 2 foot standstill and land on 2 feet. Then, do that same rotation on the spot and land on one foot and hold landing position. Then put the rotation into the jump, loop from one foot etc.

[Skate@Delaware]

It would be great if someone would post a "how-to do off-ice jumps" video on youtube or someplace for the different jumps. We don't have any type of training class for it at my rink and I've forgotten what I learned at Hackensack camp. My coach only teaches the axel off-ice and I'm not there yet.

[Query]

This is OT, and I can't help, but how do you folks absorb the horizontal momentum when you land jumps off-ice?

It is obvious that, since you can't slide through the landing the way you do on ice, you have to do move your arms or legs in such a way as to absorb the horizontal momentum, or align the leg non-vertically so as to absorb it in the knee bend, or hop after landing, or something. But when I try any or all of these things, even with very simple half rotation skate jumps, I feel like there is still a fair amount of stress on my foot, ankle and knee, and I tend to tip after I land.

I suppose one could practice off-ice on roller skates or in-lines, so as to get the same slide, but it doesn't explain how most skaters are able to practice skating jumps off-ice in bare feet or tennis shoes. Besides, I feel less stable on rollers and in-lines.

[Isk8NYC]

The skater "hops out" the entry and landing to lessen the impact and stop the forward momentum while checking the landing off-ice.
It would be great if someone would post a "how-to do off-ice jumps" video on youtube or someplace for the different jumps. We don't have any type of training class for it at my rink and I've forgotten what I learned at Hackensack camp. My coach only teaches the axel off-ice and I'm not there yet.

I thought sk8strong had an off-ice jumping video, but I can't find it in their catalog.

[Skate@Delaware]

The skater "hops out" the entry and landing to lessen the impact and stop the forward momentum while checking the landing off-ice.

yeah, lots of little hops-NEVER stick these landings!

I thought sk8strong had an off-ice jumping video, but I can't find it in their catalog.
that's what I thought as well...and some of the ones on youtube only SHOW someone off-ice jumping. I need the full-blown "how to" instruction!

[doubletoe]

[SIZE="3"]Then there are jumps that work off ice easily but on ice mess up; Loop, Flip and Lutz, just enough that you get down graded. But it seems the Waltz jump and the Toe Loop work both off-ice and on-ice equally well.

The jumps I've found to work best for me on the floor are the axel and the loop. I had what I *thought* was a consistent double toeloop on the floor and was starting to land it pretty consistently on the ice, too. . . and then I found out that I was pre-rotating on the toe on takeoff on the ice. Then my coach pointed out that I was also pre-rotating on the picking foot on the floor, and that it is really impossible to simulate a toeloop takeoff on the floor because you can't slide your skating foot back to meet the picking foot.

Has your coach seen your loop, flip and lutz on the floor? Are they fully rotated or is it possible that you are pre-rotating or underrotating them on the floor as well?

[Isk8NYC]

My favorite off-ice jump to watch is a double salchow. There's a beautiful skater at our rink that does the coolest off-ice double salchow as part of her warmup.

She stands on her takeoff foot, arms checked and free leg stretched well behind, then she hops in place around and around, then SNAP! - she jumps up, free leg comes through, check and she's already in the backspin position. Blink and you miss it, but it's the startup that fascinates me - that revolving in place with the perfectly checked free leg. It's like watching a music box ballerina.

Her on-ice jumps are spectacular as well.

[Blosmbubbs]

I do all my jumps off ice to warm up. I definately do not stick the landings, you can hurt your knees. For axel and double axel I do a turn which would on the ice be the mohawk then axel. Salchow I do the 3 turn on the floor then step up just like on ice. Toeloop is just like on ice. Loop is same as on ice, make sure knees are really bending. Flip and Lutz are just like on ice.

[GoSveta]

The jumps I've found to work best for me on the floor are the axel and the loop. I had what I *thought* was a consistent double toeloop on the floor and was starting to land it pretty consistently on the ice, too. . . and then I found out that I was pre-rotating on the toe on takeoff on the ice. Then my coach pointed out that I was also pre-rotating on the picking foot on the floor, and that it is really impossible to simulate a toeloop takeoff on the floor because you can't slide your skating foot back to meet the picking foot.

Has your coach seen your loop, flip and lutz on the floor? Are they fully rotated or is it possible that you are pre-rotating or underrotating them on the floor as well?

Agree.

I used to be able to do Double Axels off ice (I stopped doing those, no reason since I'm not throwing them on ice).

Toe Loops and Salchows are the hardest jumps to do off-ice, due to the nature of the jumps. Toe Loops because you can't really get the pivot right off-ice, and Salchows because it's hard to get the turn into the take-off right because it's hard to balance on the inside of your foot off-ice while you're "bringing everything around."

I stopped doing multi-rotation toe loops off-ice because it's just hard. It lends itself to two footing the take-off because lots of people can't do it right. People who do it from the 3 turn often tend to toe axel them off-ice at the lower levels, and this messes up their on-ice technique, as well. Salchows I stopped doing because I just couldn't get the timing right, and would end up taking off backwards (all jumps take-off forwards, even Loop, from the toepick), which is terrible technique, so I stopped doing them.

But Flips, Lutz, Loop, and Axel are all easy. Toe and Sal are the hardest jumps for me, and I attribute that chiefly from my lack of training them off-ice. I started landing good Lutz and Flip jumps in Basic 4

Many top coaches say you should be able to do a jump off-ice before attempting it on-ice.

Remember, if you can do a full axel (truly 1.5 rotations, off ice - it will look somewhat overrotated in many cases) then as long as you have decent technique and jump high enough it should be easy on ice. Doing the jumps on-ice requires less rotation and the inertia you have on ice actually helps you achieve more height, distance, and (if you technique is decent) rotation on the jumps.

Being able to edge your feet off-ice without risking ankle sprains/injury is also a good "skill" to have (it also means your ankles are strong - but don't do it "just cause I mentioned it).

I've seen skaters who have most of their doubles and have been doing them for a year or more twist their ankle on an axel off-ice, but I can do almost triple flips and double axels all day long and not even come close to doing it because my ankles are strong and I can actually land off-ice jumps on an edge without my ankle collapsing (and thus risking injury).

The off-ice jumps really helped me on-ice as well, IRT jump landings. It improves your awareness in-air, and I usually know exactly where I need to be to land something (and to prevent falling). I probably have my foot slip out from under me 5+ times a week, but I haven't fallen on a jump but twice in 6+ months.

I do think that at the lower levels they (off-ice jumps) tend to help male skaters more than females, though, because we're stronger and more adept at going into jumps and initiating [external] rotation by opening the hip on the take-off.

A lot of female skaters really depend on the internal rotation of their picking/takeoff foot on takeoffs to fully rotate their jumps, and that is - IMO - much harder to reproduce off ice.

But there are some strong girls :P