Loop Compulsory Figure [Archive]

JimStanmore

08-18-2010, 09:42 PM

OK, so I read a couple of threads about tricks vs MITF and it got me thinking. At first, I got really upset - I mean jumps are edges/MITF in the air to me and the hooking together is the art... After a while, I realized that MITF are the tricks to me. For instance, I keep adding to the number of double-3's I can do with control and try to put in an edge pull ever so often. That is a trick to me and my goal is once down on one foot and back up on the other MITF with enough speed to not take up much of my 1:40. FWIW, I think accomplishing that will almost mean more to me than getting my Axel, Lutz or Pancake. So, when I watched a John Curry video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXJqsoFwUic) I knew I had to add some of those moves to open my programs. Now, I realize that some of that stuff is no big deal to skaters that tested figures, but to me they really look good.

I am designing my second program and I have started thinking that the power (guy thing) shouldn't come from the music this time but from my control, command of the ice and flow (a no-test/Pre-Bronze talking command of the ice, LOL.) No constantly blasting trumpets, strident strings or insistent bass lines this time, just a slow dramatic build to a powerful ending to draw everyone into my world (evil laugh.) The loop and that two foot spin John Curry does in After All fit what I am looking for exactly.

Anyway, my question is how do I do the loop compulsory figure. I am assuming that the move that he goes into on an LBI starting at around 20 sec are loops. I tried them today at the rink and they wouldn't "swoop" - they sort of circled or I fell off of the edge. I have been searching, but all I can find is that they are in some current sequences.

So, can any of you figures people tell me about the edge, pushes, weight transfer, tips, etc for a loop ? And, before anyone says anything, I am on a short break from lessons due to my current schedule. Any comments on that two foot spin would be appreciated, also, as well as any good figures book recommendations.

drskater

08-18-2010, 11:09 PM

Re: John Curry video. Wow. I'm blown away. I can't believe we eliminated school figures and lost that kind of expertise forever. I really believe that no senior man could skate like that today.

phoenix

08-18-2010, 11:28 PM

Well--a figure loop is an advanced move--it is being added to the Novice MITF test starting in Sept., and actually the backwards ones will be in Junior MITF (although for many people the backwards loops are easier than forwards). Back in the day it was on the 4th figure test (out of 8). So it will take a long time & lots of practice to get a loop under your belt.

I'd recommend LOTS of edge practice--edge rolls/swing rolls. One exercise is to do 3 cross rolls & every 3rd one hold the edge for a complete circle, working to make it as small a circle/deep an edge as possible. For backward loops, your body / shoulders will face outside the circle. At the last 3rd or so of the loop, there is a short power pull motion of the knee & free leg to help close the circle. So--practice LOTS of power pulls as well.

You may not have it pulled together for your next program, but it's a great goal to work toward! Good luck!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EE1bZ3jewc --the second figure on this video shows a paragraph loop figure--amazing!!

JimStanmore

08-18-2010, 11:28 PM

We have three Olympic pairs teams at our rink and high level boy/teen men. I have seen some great jumps and really nice moves (the pairs coach beat Torvil & Dean,) but I have to agree with you. Everything looks so effortless. One thing that really intrigues me is that the jumps and spins are in there, but they are woven seamlessly into the tapestry of the program(s.) I personally don't think the telegraphing looks good. It bothered me in the Olympics to see a third of the ice being used for setting up a jump. Since I first saw the video a few days ago my edgework went from 25% to 80% of my practice time.

Now to find a good patch coach somewhere...

phoenix: Thanks. That was just what I was looking for - where to start. There had to be supporting/building block moves and now I know. I agree, maybe not this year, but think of what the quest will do for my skating!

blue111moon

08-19-2010, 07:30 AM

Almost any coach over the age of 40 will have done some figures (at least all the ones at my itty-bitty rink), at least enough to get skaters through the first couple of levels. A lot of the older judges have done them too, and are only too happy to share their knowledge with skaters. The toughest thing, I found, was finding ice to work them on. I lost count of the number of times I got blindsided by skaters who didn't realize how slowly I was moving.

Loops are really hard. I worked on them exclusively for a couple of years and rarely got them to the point of doing the whole figure on one foot. Even when you get the idea, getting the size and placement correct are a challenge. The closest move to them in freestyle or Moves are twizzles (which are supposed to be little loops, not a row of consecutive three-turns, which is what I see a lot of).

But I'm weird. I think figures are fun. Frustrating, difficult, intense, and exhausting, but fun.

fsk8r

08-19-2010, 07:35 AM

The closest move to them in freestyle or Moves are twizzles (which are supposed to be little loops, not a row of consecutive three-turns, which is what I see a lot of).

But I'm weird. I think figures are fun. Frustrating, difficult, intense, and exhausting, but fun.

I was told twizzles were NOT meant to be a series of little loops. More a series of consecutime three turns. Hence why the ISU refers to "twizzle-like" action, and that on the NISA tests we have exercises with multiple 3-turns which are precursors to twizzles.

But I agree, figures are fun. Frustrating but fun. And I'm really really thankful that I get a summer of once a week of figures ice every year.

RachelSk8er

08-19-2010, 07:57 AM

I was told twizzles were NOT meant to be a series of little loops. More a series of consecutime three turns. Hence why the ISU refers to "twizzle-like" action, and that on the NISA tests we have exercises with multiple 3-turns which are precursors to twizzles.

Twizzles are consecutive 3 turns as far as the edges you're on go. The difference between a single twizzle and doulbe 3 has to do with the knee bend involved. On a doulbe 3, you're re-bending before each turn and checking, you don't on a twizzle.

I can't speak for singles but I know in synchro teams used to get twizzles called as double 3s all the time because there was too much knee action going on (particularly in the intermediate/novice levels where skaters are younger and hadn't been working on them long when IJS was introduced).

Actually a poorly executed loop can turn into a double 3, too. I used to do that all the time on back insides when I first started working on them.

Clarice

08-19-2010, 08:37 AM

fsk8r

08-19-2010, 09:19 AM

Agreeing with what's just been said about twizzles - and adding that if you look at the tracing on the ice, it will look like consecutive three-turns. If you see little loops, you're doing them incorrectly.

It was being shown the tracings which suddenly meant that I was able to go from badly executed singles to doubles and triples. In seeing the little loop just after I'd done it, I was able to associate the feel of the loop with the tracing.

Ironically, I can easily do these loops on forward twizzles, but forward loops are really really hard. Those edges have to be damn tight and the body strongly checked to be able to pull off the loop. The back insides are definitely the easiest.

Skittl1321

08-19-2010, 09:36 AM

I cannot do loops on a figure, but I can do 2 forward loops that are relatively correct in shape. For me the way to think about it is a salchow where you forget to jump. On the other edge, not so much.

The coach who taught them to me was shocked that I could pull them off. They should be way above my ability.

dbny

08-19-2010, 09:41 AM

"After All" is an amazing program. I can never watch it just once.

You can practice FO loops on two feet, but should have someone show you how. Check YouTube, you might find some instruction on loops there.

Isk8NYC

08-19-2010, 10:22 AM

FSWer came across a DVD with all the School Figures demonstrated.
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=30211

The creator has a YouTube demonstration video of several Figures that includes the backward Paragraph Loop figure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EE1bZ3jewc#t=2m1s

The short-and-fast Promo video shows the forward Loop being demonstrated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG0ZsKAtuDw&feature=channel
They've speeded up the video, so you'll have to watch carefully to see the checks and free leg positions.
You can turn off the sound on your TV or computer if it bugs you.

I thought someone on this board (Daisies, maybe?) had started a webpage devoted to Figures resources? I can't find a link, sorry.

Our Skaters' Reference sticky thread includes a few links to other resources:
http://www.skatingforums.com/showpost.php?p=348291
(Specifically posts #19, 24 and 28)

Carlo Fassi's book "Figure Skating With Carlo Fassi" has some very clear illustrations of the basic turns and figures as well as freestyle elements. It's not as convenient and easy to understand as a video, though.

For the basics of Figures, Maribel Vinsen-Owen's book is excellent. It's available online here: http://worldfigureskating.net/figureskating27.php

dbny

08-19-2010, 02:10 PM

In addition to the commercial promo video on YouTube (first one that Isk8NYC posted), there is one from the same DVD that is somewhat instructional and is a sample of what is actually on the DVD. All of the USFS test figures are on it in addition to the ones that were used by the ISU. I'm thinking of buying it. I don't think $46 is too much, and I can write it off as a business expense.

Isk8NYC

08-19-2010, 02:50 PM

Is that longer instructional video different from the first demo video I posted, or is my link not working? I feel like I missed something, but the only two relevant videos on that account are the ones I posted.

Here's my "Big Brother" moment of the day: This morning, I checked the PSA online store to see the price of that video (still the same, $46 or $39 with the PSA member discount). I closed the browser when I was done.

This afternoon after lunch, I received an email from the PSA for that DVD. Someone or something wanted to see if they/it could give me a nudge to buy it, lol. Hey, my birthday's coming, PSA! How about a promo code for an extra discount? (Just kidding, just kidding.)

Maybe I can "justify" it mentally as a self-birthday present, lol. I'd really like to have a copy, if only as a novelty since I am so very bad at footwork but I own a scribe, ROFLOL!

I know it's a business deduction and I would use it for my students. I'm still on the fence, but that's a good selling point, DBNY.

doubletoe

08-19-2010, 02:56 PM

The tough part about doing a loop is resisting the urge to turn on the blade. You need to stay on the same edge the entire time. A lot of people say the LBI is easiest for them but I can only do the RFI and one reason I like it is because I can see where I'm going. I was taught to let my upper body "hover" over my loop, looking into my circle, ankle bent deeply and toe of free foot right behind heel of skating foot. I try to make the size of the loop about 1-1/2 blade lengths, starting at 6:00 on a line, going up to 12:00 (that's the 1-1/2 blade lengths), then coming back down to 6:00 and exiting. IIRC, the free foot stays right behind the heel of the skating foot until I'm almost back down to my 6:00 starting point, then I draw a little loop with that foot in the air and bring it forward to create that little push on the exit. Daisies could really tell you how to do them, though!

techskater

08-19-2010, 08:07 PM

Left for right and right for left. Basically, arms should be opposite in the way they are for edges. Leg stays back until the very end of the turn.

blue111moon

08-19-2010, 08:15 PM

If twizzles are just consecutive threes, then I can do them no sweat. But three different coaches on two continents have told me that what I'm doing is wrong.

phoenix

08-19-2010, 08:47 PM

If twizzles are just consecutive threes, then I can do them no sweat. But three different coaches on two continents have told me that what I'm doing is wrong.

I don't know who told you what, but the people here are correct--a twizzle does not leave loop tracings, it leaves pointed tracings the same as a series of 3 turns, just close together as the twizzle rotates. What makes it a twizzle, as others have said, is the stable skating knee and the unchecked turns. During the twizzle, there are moments of forward and backward gliding as the blade turns. If it were done as loops, you would always be traveling either forward or backward depending on the entrance. I'm not sure how you would even make it travel if you did it as loops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9zNjsw2Zkg&feature=related

This one does it slower so you can see a little better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRRIWwvGZGE&feature=related

sk8tmum

08-19-2010, 09:31 PM

Ask any Canadian who has passed a Junior Silver Skills test (or tried to) about loops. 8 loops (the 4 forward, 4 backward), and 6 of the 8 have to be correct for that small chunk of the test to be passed. There are 3 compulsory skills patterns ... all 3 have to be passed on the day ... the loops one is just the first half of one of the patterns ...

The loops are the biggest obstacle, IMHO, for skaters in our side of the world in terms of progressing through skills ... Senior Silver and Gold seem to go by much faster ...

However, we have coaches on our rink who did figures tests, including one who is barely 30 and has the 8th figure test (along with others who are over 50 also with the same level). Watching them demonstrate loops, and seeing them teach them, is impressive, as is entire edge quality. You get why they are impressive when you see them done with style, flair and perfect control.

JimStanmore

08-19-2010, 10:24 PM

Wow, thanks. Great ideas, tips, resources and discussion. All of the discussion made me start looking for free Google books and I found quite a few of the original skating figures. Definitely TMI... It is fascinating to read and goes into quite a bit of depth. It appears, for instance, there was quite a debate between the British style and the American or Continental style. One title seems to be like the current PSA yearly MITF series and starts in the 1880's, the latest I have been reading is 1910:

http://books.google.com/books?id=F8lMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA66&dq=ice+skating&hl=en&ei=jeVtTNmyIYP58AbntbSbDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-preview-link&resnum=9&ved=0CF8QuwUwCDg8#v=onepage&q=ice%20skating&f=false

I find this especially interesting because while the aesthetics or style may have changed, the physics hasn't/can't. Crosscut (pg 46), Salchow's Star (pg 37), from http://books.google.com/books?id=sp4XAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA9&dq=ice+skating+figures&hl=en&ei=ttptTMSoJsT38AbVsdSaDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-preview-link&resnum=3&ved=0CEAQuwUwAjgK#v=onepage&q=ice%20skating%20figures&f=false.
I can't imagine anyone actually doing the Brillen dance (pg 76 from the first book.

Once again, I can't believe people could actually do all of that stuff!

EDIT: The series is A System of Figure Skating starting in maybe 1869.

EDIT: Had to add 1828: http://books.google.com/books?id=MNZZaz06Vy8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+art+of+skating&hl=en&ei=u_JtTMjTAcKC8gbEyOTxDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

dbny

08-19-2010, 11:48 PM

Isk8NYC - I only knew of the figures DVD from the PSA email I got this afternoon. There were no prices in my email. It does have a link that led me to the retailer's web site which has a link for a promo video and a second link for the commercial, which is the one you posted. Sorry for my confusion of the names of the 2 videos. That's where I got the link to the promo (demo) video, which is lightly instructional:

http://www.PeakEdgePerformance.com/PeakEdgePerformance/DVD.html

I probably didn't get the second email because I hadn't signed in to the PSA site, which is also probably why I wasn't shown the member's discount.

fsk8r

08-20-2010, 01:22 AM

RachelSk8er

08-20-2010, 10:20 AM

We're working on backward loops now since I am not going to be able to test my jr moves before the changes. I've been able to do backward loops in footwork but we need to make them better for the test pattern (i.e. need a ton more control on the entry/exit edges in order to pull off the COE). For now he has me just doing the old figures pattern to work on the entry/exit edges and getting my loop at the top of the lobe. What I seem to have the most trouble with on loops is that my coach wants me to look down at my heel while doing them on the backward ones. I've had it beat into my head over and over and over for years NOT to look down at the ice, and when it comes to freestyle/dance we've been working on getting my eyes up (head is up, but when I get nervous, eyes go down). Suddenly I'm being told to look down at the ice, and it just feels wrong.

dbny

08-20-2010, 11:40 AM

The tough part about doing a loop is resisting the urge to turn on the blade. You need to stay on the same edge the entire time.

For F loops, I've found that pressing hard into the heel helps with this.

blue111moon

08-23-2010, 11:12 AM

I don't know who told you what, but the people here are correct--a twizzle does not leave loop tracings, it leaves pointed tracings the same as a series of 3 turns, just close together as the twizzle rotates. What makes it a twizzle, as others have said, is the stable skating knee and the unchecked turns. During the twizzle, there are moments of forward and backward gliding as the blade turns. If it were done as loops, you would always be traveling either forward or backward depending on the entrance. I'm not sure how you would even make it travel if you did it as loops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9zNjsw2Zkg&feature=related

This one does it slower so you can see a little better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRRIWwvGZGE&feature=related

I know what I've been told (by a couple of judges and high level coaches) and they are all clear on the fact that twizzles are NOT consecutive threes. Threes change edges, twizzles (and loops) do - or should - not. I even got quite a lecture on the subject over the weekend from an International Dance Judge. I do also know that I have been roundly scolded for doing consecutive threes when I thought I was doing twizzles.

For now, anyway, I'm going to continue with the way I'm being taught which is to have tiny loop circles (more like a spin) rather than the points of threes in my tracings. If I'm wrong, well, I'm sure the judges on my next test will make that clear.

Isk8NYC

08-23-2010, 11:22 AM

Threes change edges, twizzles (and loops) do - or should - not. That makes sense to me for some reason - I'm going to try it today and see why it appeals to me, lol. Maybe I can draft our resident ice dance coach into demonstrating a few and I'll photograph the tracings with my phone.

Maybe they've noticed the "checking" of the double threes as your foot turns while attempting a twizzle? The double three rolls up more to the front of the blade to execute each turn, whereas a good twizzle looks as if the blade is turning on the middle of the foot effortlessly. I have some students who learned twizzles in a group lesson setting and they're doing double threes - you can see the stop/start of each edge because they rock on the blade.

I just took a seminar where the elite dance coach said the key to avoiding the "double three" evaluation is to keep the skating knee steady - either straight or bent - on twizzles, and that the shoulders/arms don't move from the sides. He also suggested keeping the leading shoulder back slightly in the direction of the rotation. (Almost cross-checking)

The uber-coach was asked to demonstrate both and you can see the difference in the movement more easily than the difference in the tracings. There were no loops on the ice after either, though, and I don't think the judges can SEE the tracings during a test or competition.

Perhaps your body position and blade usage is what's causing your twizzles to be called double threes?

jjane45

08-23-2010, 12:44 PM

I just took a seminar where the elite dance coach said the key to avoiding the "double three" evaluation is to keep the skating knee steady - either straight or bent - on twizzles, and that the shoulders/arms don't move from the sides. He also suggested keeping the leading shoulder back slightly in the direction of the rotation. (Almost cross-checking)
Thank you, great tips!

Clarice

08-23-2010, 05:16 PM

Threes change edges, twizzles (and loops) do - or should - not.

According to my coach, who is master rated in figures and dance, this is not correct. Twizzles do not stay on the same edge like loops do. That's why the tracings look like double three turns except closer together. The difference between a twizzle and a double three is that the twizzle is not checked. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't continue to practice as coached - it's entirely possible that your coach is trying to correct something specific about your technique. But if you try to make twizzles stay on the same edge you're going to set yourself up for a different error.

Isk8NYC

08-24-2010, 10:33 AM

I worked on RFI twizzles last night with my student and I think I have an idea as to why there are differing opinions. When I do twizzles, I'm really just moving from side to side on the blade, changing edges, but staying on the rocker with little forward/backward movement. I press down with the ball of my foot to control the blade. Definitely changing edges, but not visibly to the spectator.

The student's first attempts at a Twizzle were just double threes - it was obvious she was rolling up and down the blade and you could see the shoulders checking/forcing each turn.

Once I corrected her arms (waving those too-high synchro arms again! :roll:) and had her keep the knee steady, she almost managed that motionless edge change with very little front-to-back blade rocking. Not bad for a no-test skater.

Of course, all bets are off when she starts using her new skates, lol.

FWIW, the USFSA patterns show twizzles as pointy-looking consecutive turns, not as loops.

The new PSA Moves in the Field book (5th Edition) defines as twizzle as:

Twizzle: A traveling turn on one foot with one or more rotations, which is quickly rotated with a continuous (uninterrupted) action. The weight remains on the skating foot with the free leg in any position during the turn, and then placed beside the skating foot to skate the next step. A series of checked three-turns is not acceptable, as this does not constitute a continuous action. If the traveling action stops during the execution, the twizzle becomes a solo spin (pirouette). This four different types of entry edges for twizzle are forward inside, forward outside, backward inside, and backward outside.

Hmmm... pirouette - haven't seen that word used in skating since the late 1970's.

I'm stumped on the twizzled loop tracings, sorry. Maybe they're tracing "spoons" or performing a "traveling spin/backspin." Hope you master it, either way. Things that make me go hmmmm....

In the PSA MITF book, a loop is defined as:

Loop: A teardrop-shaped turn formed within a circle, skated on a small circle approximately equal to the height of the skater, and on the same edge throughout.

fsk8r

08-24-2010, 11:21 AM

Once I corrected her arms (waving those too-high synchro arms again! :roll:) and had her keep the knee steady, she almost managed that motionless edge change with very little front-to-back blade rocking. Not bad for a no-test skater.

FWIW, the USFSA patterns show twizzles as pointy-looking consecutive turns, not as loops.

Bizarrely if you said synchro arms to me on twizzles I drop the arms to my side as that's the way I've been taught to do them for synchro. And before I was taught "synchro" arms, I was holding them in ballet position.

I think the loops come when your weight is not fully over the skating foot. I tend to drop to the inside edge and draw loops then. But I do that on my backspin as well. When I'm upright the twizzle draws a pattern on the ice like a double 3, but as said before the knee isn't moving and there's no checking between the turns.

Isk8NYC

08-24-2010, 11:29 AM

Oh no, don't get me wrong: the synchro coaches do teach twizzles with arms down, hands touching the side of the hips/thighs. The high arms to the side, as if she's in a shoulder hold, is a habit she's developed from Synchro. I have to remind her that no one else can see her invisible skating partners, lol. (She says the synchro coach taught twizzles, but I suspect she either didn't memorize everything the coach taught, or she self-taught herself twizzles. That's happened in the past. It means means extra reminders and some unteaching/reteaching, which sets us back in lessons.)

Meh. At least she's not slouching or putting her hands in her pockets. ;) There are worse things in this world.

I also learned it with ballet arms and I find that the skater breaks at the waist easier that way, which stops the "continuous movement" and uncontrolled finishes. I find the twizzles much easier with the hands down at the sides, so I thought it might help others, which is why I mentioned it.

RachelSk8er

08-24-2010, 12:08 PM

Bizarrely if you said synchro arms to me on twizzles I drop the arms to my side as that's the way I've been taught to do them for synchro. And before I was taught "synchro" arms, I was holding them in ballet position.

Yeah, if I'm doing a twizzle, my arms drop straight down by my sides. You do a twizzle in a NHSS with your arms out, and you're smacking your teammates in the face. Not good.

Synchro skaters should not be skating with their arms out any more. Programs are not done with 98% of it holding on these days and haven't for several years now. My last team did step sequences in both blocks and our circle at no hold and our line at hands. Our arms were all over the place in different holds in the rest of our block, the only time we were really holding onto shoulders was in our wheel and when traveling our circle.

Isk8NYC

08-24-2010, 12:59 PM

You're talking about a high level team, not a Beginner team and no test skater. The "98% no holds" doesn't affect the Beginner teams, which are governed by Basic Skills. Those programs are expected to skate lines with holds. The higher level teams do have segments with lines/blocks/etc. that require the more advanced skating. I wonder if that will change the issue from too-high shoulders/arms to too-low shoulders/arms among the lower-level skaters.

Skaters who spend 3-4 hours on the ice skating synchro under supervision, then spent at most 2 hours on the ice skating independently seem to struggle with switching over to singles style for the 30 minute lesson. It's just muscle memory fighting for dominance and I guess it just takes time, practice and lots of reminders.