How to snap/rotate faster?

[SkatEn]

Hi

I have been doing conditioning and noticed that it really helped the height of my jumps (off-ice). I just video'd and saw that I have more height when I jump up and down. However, when I jump and rotate, I seem not to go as high as I do, and that there is no much difference between today's height and last time's height. I also rotate quite slowly.

What are the muscles controlling rotation? What can I do to snap faster and rotate faster (is there a difference?)?

Coaches commented that I start to rotate slower and also open up early. :giveup: I want my axel.

Any exercises/drills/comments will be appreciated!

[Skate@Delaware]

I've been reading up on this. Basically, if you want to move faster, you have to train your muscles to move faster. Try doing speed drills of varying types (not just rotation). Line-to-line drills, jump/squat drills, etc. Add some 1/4, 1/2, full-rotation drills using a metronone (each tick is a rotation-it pushes you to move beyond a speed you "think" is fast). Go for speed, not form-use 2-foot landings.

I'm also working on speed/snap as well...seems the only snap I get these days is in my cereal :frus:

[doubletoe]

You don't need that much snap for the axel; it's mostly just a matter of re-training your body to do things that have not been natural for you up to now, like trasfering your weight to the right side and rotating backward over that side. What helped me get that into muscle memory was lots of backspins and lots of the "bench exercise" and axels on the floor.

Bench exercise:
- Stand about 1-2 feet in front of a bench that is mounted firmly to a wall or floor (or any other firmly mounted surface that is about 2 feet high).
- Facing the bench, with your left (takeoff) side forward and your right shoulder and leg (free side) back, take off like a waltz jump, but with your right knee (landing leg) bent in the air so that you jump up instead of forward.
- Do 1/2 turn in the air, landing backward on the bench on your right foot (landing foot),with your left foot (takeoff foot) in front. By the time you land on the bench, you should be done with your half turn so that you aren't doing any rotation on the bench. You'll be facing the direction you came from and your left foot will be in front of your right calf, just like a loop air position (the left leg is open, with the knee bent, not touching the right leg). Your arms will be open and rounded, like a nice waltz jump position.
- Once you get that exercise down, try doing the same thing on the open floor, but after you've done that first 1/2 turn in the air and you're in the open loop position, just pull in. That will give you 1 more rotation in the air. Just keep your torso pulled up and tall in the air. I imagine I'm jumping up onto the bench and doing a backspin there.
- When doing axels on the floor, don't cross your legs at the ankle. That will make it hard to check out when you start doing them on the ice. Instead, have your left knee a little bent so that you feel your right knee against the upper part of your left calf when you bend your right knee. If you pay attention to your backspin, you'll notice that that's also the position your free leg is in there, too.

[SkatEn]

You don't need that much snap for the axel; it's mostly just a matter of re-training your body to do things that have not been natural for you up to now, like trasfering your weight to the right side and rotating backward over that side. What helped me get that into muscle memory was lots of backspins and lots of the "bench exercise" and axels on the floor.

Bench exercise:
- Stand about 1-2 feet in front of a bench that is mounted firmly to a wall or floor (or any other firmly mounted surface that is about 2 feet high).
- Facing the bench, with your left (takeoff) side forward and your right shoulder and leg (free side) back, take off like a waltz jump, but with your right knee (landing leg) bent in the air so that you jump up instead of forward.
- Do 1/2 turn in the air, landing backward on the bench on your right foot (landing foot),with your left foot (takeoff foot) in front. By the time you land on the bench, you should be done with your half turn so that you aren't doing any rotation on the bench. You'll be facing the direction you came from and your left foot will be in front of your right calf, just like a loop air position (the left leg is open, with the knee bent, not touching the right leg). Your arms will be open and rounded, like a nice waltz jump position.
- Once you get that exercise down, try doing the same thing on the open floor, but after you've done that first 1/2 turn in the air and you're in the open loop position, just pull in. That will give you 1 more rotation in the air. Just keep your torso pulled up and tall in the air. I imagine I'm jumping up onto the bench and doing a backspin there.
- When doing axels on the floor, don't cross your legs at the ankle. That will make it hard to check out when you start doing them on the ice. Instead, have your left knee a little bent so that you feel your right knee against the upper part of your left calf when you bend your right knee. If you pay attention to your backspin, you'll notice that that's also the position your free leg is in there, too.

I've done the "bench" exercise. In my case, I did them on the steps. Did it translate off ice or on ice? Nope. I have the height needed to rotate, but I don't rotate.

Regarding the crossing, well, I'm not crossing on the ice and don't cross tight in off-ice either. Coach used a harness on me for the last 5 minutes of lesson and I managed to do one that's crossed. So he thinks it's a fear factor and not actual inability. I don't know. I tend to pop those that I try to cross, or I don't even go up then I try to cross.

I used a slow-motion on my video and on a YT skater's. She has a shorter distance and height (but also smaller and thinner), but she rotated and landed clean. At my peak, I already have 0.5 rev. On the way down, I do another 0.5. I need to rotate faster.

I'm probably sounding unreceptive, that's what a year plus of trying axel does to me;). It seems like I have tried so many things. Backspins exercise doesn't seem to work. In fact, I don't even get it. Yeah, I know I'm supposed to be in the backspin position, but when I do a waltz-backspin, the timing is completely different from the axel!


Anything and everything will help, thanks!

Skate@Delaware Thanks! I think I have an issue with sluggish muscles - shuttle run is my worst component in the physical fitness test. I'll do the metronome exercise! Sounds fun too!

[RachelSk8er]

You don't need to think rotation for an axel. In reality, by the time you leave the ice, it's less than 1.25 revs with a proper take-off. You need to focus on staying down on the entry edge, driving the knee through first and keeping the shoulder of the free side back, and then folding into the R side and shifting your weight once you're up in the air. Too many get hung up on the fact that it's a forward take-off and backward landing and think they need to rotate more, but that's not the case whatsoever. Most people who have axel issues (myself included) have them because of everything but rotation.

[jp1andOnly]

if you arent getting the rotation it's basically that you aren't getting enough height. By focusing on rotation you arent getting all the height. Think about jumping up first and then pulling in.

[SkatEn]

I understand that I should be thinking up, but can I know how to rotate faster as well? No harm knowing how to rotate and snap faster... :lol:

[jp1andOnly]

think backspin......(and if your legs arent crossed then that postion cannot be achieved and therefore you wont/arent getting enough height)

[doubletoe]

I've done the "bench" exercise. In my case, I did them on the steps. Did it translate off ice or on ice? Nope. I have the height needed to rotate, but I don't rotate.

Regarding the crossing, well, I'm not crossing on the ice and don't cross tight in off-ice either. Coach used a harness on me for the last 5 minutes of lesson and I managed to do one that's crossed. So he thinks it's a fear factor and not actual inability. I don't know. I tend to pop those that I try to cross, or I don't even go up then I try to cross.

I used a slow-motion on my video and on a YT skater's. She has a shorter distance and height (but also smaller and thinner), but she rotated and landed clean. At my peak, I already have 0.5 rev. On the way down, I do another 0.5. I need to rotate faster.

I'm probably sounding unreceptive, that's what a year plus of trying axel does to me;). It seems like I have tried so many things. Backspins exercise doesn't seem to work. In fact, I don't even get it. Yeah, I know I'm supposed to be in the backspin position, but when I do a waltz-backspin, the timing is completely different from the axel!

I've been exactly where you are, so I understand. It took me a year to land it on the floor, then another year before I landed one on the ice without the harness. Sometimes it takes awhile! The bench/step exercise helped because it gave me the timing and technique of the transfer of weight over the right hip. The backspin helped because it gave me the correct body position and feel of the rotation, even though the timing was different.

As for crossing your free leg in front, you don't really want to cross the free leg so much as you want to turn your right hip in so that you face into the free leg, then you pull in. That's where the bench exercise and backspin both help. You turn the right hip in to get backwards (and straighten the landing leg), then pull arms & free leg in. The timing is "Up! Hip! Arms!". Keeping your right shoulder checked back until takeoff will help you create that snap, so you might want to try it from a side hop, which forces you to keep the right side back.

[coskater64]

I was able to land axels on the floor for months before I could land them on the ice, I can do an axel with 3 inches of height so height doesn't make a difference...its the snap and how you enter the jump, don't lean back, rock off your toe make the H's with your legs, transfer your weight and there you go.

It is an odd feeling...once you get it, it will come and go, you need to be aggressive, ask to be put on the belt and try to feel it,...I also used a pole lesson which would help sometimes...it really is odd but height is something you get later once the jump gets more comfortable.

:halo:

http://www.youtube.com/bouldersk8r#p/u/6/C6jag3kHHwA
see for yourself....

[doubletoe]

...its the snap and how you enter the jump, don't lean back, rock off your toe make the H's with your legs, transfer your weight and there you go.

You bring up a very important point: Your weight has to be on the ball of the foot just before takeoff so that you roll up straight up off the toepick as you point your toes on takeoff.

[Isk8NYC]

A great teaching tool for fast spin rotation is an off-ice harness. For adults, it's complicated: first you have to find a facility with the fixed harness, then a strong coach to do the training.

I guess a gymnastics or diving center may be able to help.
There are carnival "rides" that put you in a bungee harness on a trampoline, too.


Frank Carroll's "backspin 'til you drop" drill is a DIY technique.

Much of tight rotation comes from strength training. Carl Poe's book addresses that issue.

[jjane45]

Coach just pointed out I should not cross my leg with an open free hip on the backspin, as hips need to be closed and tight. Alas my hips don't close...

[Isk8NYC]

Sure they will - keep both knees facing forward. This is a definite off-ice exercise - good for those long standing prayers at Church, line queues anywhere or after a workout.

My problem is crossing my legs while sitting down. I've always wondered how people can cross their legs at the knee and wrap their foot around the back of the calf. My legs just don't go that way; never have, never will.

[sk8joyful]

My problem is crossing my legs while sitting down. I've always wondered how people can cross their legs at the knee and wrap their foot around the back of the calf. My legs just don't go that way; never have, never will.

Easily ;) I can & do "cross legs at the knee and wrap foot
around the back of the calf." - what is this skill good for?

[Isk8NYC]

Easily ;) I can & do "cross legs at the knee and wrap foot
around the back of the calf." - what is this skill good for?
Nothing in skating - it just looks cool at a cocktail party, lol.

[GoSveta]

Don't develop a wrapping problem in your jumps.

You should really aim for ankle contact in jumps, not wrapping the legs.

It looks ugly and for many people it will actually slow down your rotation (not everyong is Midori Ito).

There was a girl who wrapped her jumps and her falls were trademark here.

People called them <Her Name> Falls.

She's out with a hip injury now. Maybe she quit, I'm not sure.

The unfortunately thing is that she was a big jumper. She didn't even need to wrap to get them around and avoid 2 footing. It's just a terrible habit that she developed, and it never went away (it's hard to get rid of that).

I heard jumping with your feet side by side (on singles-doubles, not triples) is a good way to wean yourself off of wrapping.

I would never suggest someone wrap in a jump. That's terrible advice and if you do that at competitions you will probably lose points on every jumps you wrap.

I'm not just talking about the pronounced Ito-type wrap, either.

Moving on from that. Yes, you want your knee to be sort of over one knee, but what most kids do is forget that the ankles should so have contact (Ankle Buzzers work wonders for letting them know when they're getting it). What they do, instead, is pull that foot up (bending it at the knee) creating a wrap. If they aren't fully extending their leg in the air, it makes it even hard for them to get ankle contact, and actually encourages wrapping.

Have to be careful not to develop those habits :P

If you goto iCoachSkating.com Audrey Weisiger actually has one of her skaters work on getting ankle contact even on singles. There are a bunch of drills she uses to help skaters with getting ankle contact. I recommend :P

[Kim to the Max]

Don't develop a wrapping problem in your jumps.

You should really aim for ankle contact in jumps, not wrapping the legs.

It looks ugly and for many people it will actually slow down your rotation (not everyong is Midori Ito).

There was a girl who wrapped her jumps and her falls were trademark here.

People called them <Her Name> Falls.

She's out with a hip injury now. Maybe she quit, I'm not sure.

The unfortunately thing is that she was a big jumper. She didn't even need to wrap to get them around and avoid 2 footing. It's just a terrible habit that she developed, and it never went away (it's hard to get rid of that).

I heard jumping with your feet side by side (on singles-doubles, not triples) is a good way to wean yourself off of wrapping.

I would never suggest someone wrap in a jump. That's terrible advice and if you do that at competitions you will probably lose points on every jumps you wrap.

I'm not just talking about the pronounced Ito-type wrap, either.

Moving on from that. Yes, you want your knee to be sort of over one knee, but what most kids do is forget that the ankles should so have contact (Ankle Buzzers work wonders for letting them know when they're getting it). What they do, instead, is pull that foot up (bending it at the knee) creating a wrap. If they aren't fully extending their leg in the air, it makes it even hard for them to get ankle contact, and actually encourages wrapping.

Have to be careful not to develop those habits :P

I would say that wrapping is not the ideal way to jump, however, in certain situations, it may be recommended. These are very few and far between, and my specific situation is one where my coach would RATHER I wrap than do what I do now. I currently, will not cross my feet at all...I have tried, and I cannot seem to get it. I have done all of the exercises and have we have been working on it. She would rather I wrap badly and we can work later on pushing that foot down than me jumping with my feet side by side. But, that is a very specific situation and I would not recommend getting to this point...

[RachelSk8er]

What helps me on my axel (which still has a long way to go, it was almost there but then injuries and life got in the way) is instead of thinking of crossing the L leg over my R, I think of tucking the R behind the left (after driving the knee through, of course). This seems to help me get the weight transfer easier because I'm thinking about the R side rather than the left, and I guess gives that "snap" everyone is talking about. It REALLY REALLY helps/works on the floor, I'm still trying to get it to translate to the ice but strange things happen when the shoes come off and the skates go on, as we all know.

My coach doesn't really like to use the term snap, he talks more about folding in--same concept, but having a hard word like "snap" in your head tends to cause people to tense up and get stiff.

[GoSveta]

I would say that wrapping is not the ideal way to jump, however, in certain situations, it may be recommended. These are very few and far between, and my specific situation is one where my coach would RATHER I wrap than do what I do now. I currently, will not cross my feet at all...I have tried, and I cannot seem to get it. I have done all of the exercises and have we have been working on it. She would rather I wrap badly and we can work later on pushing that foot down than me jumping with my feet side by side. But, that is a very specific situation and I would not recommend getting to this point...
Wrapping is neither ideal nor recommended.

Anyone who can do a triple with a wraped or dangling leg (think Amber Corwin, Ito). Should not have any issues doing one with ankle contact. The jumps will also be easier to rotate with ankle contact, and I can't think of more than one or two skaters in the past 20+ years who did a wrapped axel. Even Ito pulled in and down (if that makes any sense) for hers.

Wrapping becomes less and less efficient the more rotation you add to the jumps. Skaters who wrap tend to get their jumps downgraded more than others due to the constant cheating they do since the wrap allows them to rotate underrotated jumps on the ice in many situations where someone with ankle contact would double foot (and likely fall or fall out of it) the same jump. That cheating can become habitual, especially on Jump + Loop Combinations.

Not to mention it can lead to some spectacular falls due to the way your body is wrapped around (although the wrap does lend some extra stability to the skater, so they can probably just cheat most jumps that are at least on axis but underrotated when they jump that way).

Sorry you are having issues with it, but no one person's issues are enough to legitimize wrapping. If you can do a decent backspin, then you can get ankle contact in jumps. You just have to work hard to get there.

[GoSveta]

My coach doesn't really like to use the term snap, he talks more about folding in--same concept, but having a hard word like "snap" in your head tends to cause people to tense up and get stiff.
Yea, that's the term I like to use.

Once you get the concept through, the skater can just work on folding in faster :)

Snap makes them think too hard about the speed of it, and it can cause things to fall apart when they are thinking too hard about it - not going up high enough in the knee, missing the toe picks on take-offs, etc.

[Kim to the Max]

Wrapping is neither ideal nor recommended.

Anyone who can do a triple with a wraped or dangling leg (think Amber Corwin, Ito). Should not have any issues doing one with ankle contact. The jumps will also be easier to rotate with ankle contact, and I can't think of more than one or two skaters in the past 20+ years who did a wrapped axel. Even Ito pulled in and down (if that makes any sense) for hers.

Wrapping becomes less and less efficient the more rotation you add to the jumps. Skaters who wrap tend to get their jumps downgraded more than others due to the constant cheating they do since the wrap allows them to rotate underrotated jumps on the ice in many situations where someone with ankle contact would double foot (and likely fall or fall out of it) the same jump. That cheating can become habitual, especially on Jump + Loop Combinations.

Not to mention it can lead to some spectacular falls due to the way your body is wrapped around (although the wrap does lend some extra stability to the skater, so they can probably just cheat most jumps that are at least on axis but underrotated when they jump that way).

Sorry you are having issues with it, but no one person's issues are enough to legitimize wrapping. If you can do a decent backspin, then you can get ankle contact in jumps. You just have to work hard to get there.

I am going to leave it at this: listen to your coach. Things are done for specific reasons even if they are not the proper or correct way to do things. My situation is very specific to me and I provided it as an example of an exception. I am working to correct my issue and for now, that correction may be to develop a bit of a wrap which would be better than the way I jump now. This is something my coach and I have discussed and it is calculated and well thought out. I have spent the last 2 and a half months trying to re-learn how to do an axel to break myself of some bad habits and to gain that "snap" or that "fold in" that is needed for the jump. I have also been trying to fix my take off. This has been a long process and I have worked hard and I will continue to work hard.