Etiquette and Right of Way in Freestyle Sessions

[GoSveta]

How do you handle situations where skaters chronically cut you off (some do it intentionally), especially when you're in a lesson and they aren't.

Had a girl one day doing splits on the ice in the Lutz corner looking at me in a "just go away already" fashion.

I almost got hit by a skate blade today (missed me by about 4 inches or so) doing a set moves pattern in a lesson by a skater who wasn't even in a lesson much less with a coach (same skater almost ran into me at almost full speed 2 other times while I was in a lesson).

Another girl intentionally cuts off many skaters, or skates into their direction when she obviously knows she should go around, stop, or at least try to avoid a collision. I've seen way too many coaches working on Axels with skaters in a pole harness have to bail their element and let her pass, because she outright refuses to give them the of way they should have.

Other skaters spin in the Lutz corner (not supposed to happen). Many others stand on the ice and have conversations at times (not at the boards on the ice, on the ice away from the boards) - those times someone tends to want to skate into that direction...

I'm starting to think some of these skaters need to find out what it's like when a Pinto bears into the lane of a Mack Truck, but I think that's a bit extreme - irregardless of how entertaining the thought may be.

A particular issue is that most of those skaters are... Well, let's just say they have friends in high places. I've already mentioned it before (like a year ago), and the situation has only gotten worse. Doesn't seem like mentioning it yet again will do anything but make me look like a whiner.

Thoughts, opinions, and recommendations?

[Debbie S]

Truthfully, I would recommend skating somewhere else. You say you've complained about it and nothing changed? Maybe the next step is for your coach to say/do something (when a cutoff happens in lesson). If no one (skating director?) is willing to enforce the rules, then I would take your business elsewhere. There's no reason you should have to put up with that - although there is at least one rude diva at every rink....but most of the time, authority figures will stand up to him/her/them.

[GoSveta]

I'd have to move out of state to skate somewhere else.

That's a big part of the problem.

The only other rink is only open during the winter time, and it's TERRIBLE.

Hopefully with School starting soon I'll be able to resume my half priced, double duration freestyle sessions i.e. Public Sessions where I'm the only one skating.

[herniated]

Yeah, since you can't skate anywhere else there goes my suggestion. Your coach can/needs to attempt to correct the situation at least during your lesson. If it helps, these situations happen EVERYWHERE.

One situation I'm thinking about...has to do with a little girl (9 or 10) and her mother is an absolute BEAST. I know that the kid is at least verbally abused. That kid is the worst to share the ice with, she does alter her route for anything or anybody. My point in bringing this up is that I fear if she does alter her route to give the right of way to another skater and therefore sabotages her program? Her mother would ...let's just say be very very hard on her. I know that doesn't help but sometimes there are 'reasons' why skaters do what they do.

But, chatting in the middle, doing splits in the lutz corners is totally unacceptable. The skating director should intervene, that is just dangerous.

On the bright side, summer is almost over and then you can go back to your empty sessions. It's the same for me over here. If I didn't love skating so much I'd quit in the summer.

[dbny]

It sounds like a particularly tough situation. As an older adult, I've never had a problem announcing my intent to stay on pattern with a loud "excuse me!". I've also told specific people that if there's an accident, I would likely be carted off on a stretcher.

As a coach, I teach my students to be aware of other skaters and to honor the freestyle rules. Unfortunately, many coaches do not do that, especially, in my experience, the Russians. The only time I ever brought up right of way with another coach, he said he tells his student (it was one particular kid, also Russian) but the student doesn't listen....shrug. Many coaches feel entitled and I no longer bother with them. The ones who care will do the right thing anyway.

[Morgail]

I would talk to your coach and ask him/her to speak to those kids' coaches, especially since it's occurring while you're in a lesson.

You might also try dbny's "Excuse Me!" when you have the right of way.

One thing that might help is being friendly with the kids who are the troublemakers. Catch one alone and say something nice, like "I really like your program music" or "Your axel's really good. How long did it take you to land it?". Then keep it up, smiling at the kid when you see him/her or engaging the kid in a quick conversation once in a while. Do the same with the kid's parents. It's harder to be nasty to someone who goes out of their way to be nice to you. And if you're friendly with the parent, the parent is more likely to say something to the kid if she deliberately cuts you off.

[hanca]

Crush into them? You are bigger, so very likely heavier too... They will get the message, eventually. Just go for the jump, don't stop, especially if you have right of way (during your program). At the end of the day, they are skating at their own risk and if something happen to them and you had the priority, no one will say a word to you. And they will remember it for the next time.

[sk8lady]

I used to skate on a session like this with a group of girls who liked to play "chicken" during the summer when this was the only ice available within a 2 hour drive. Shouting "Excuse me!" when I was coming through a corner with a sizable partner doing a compulsory dance did not get them to move, even if we clipped them. They eventually started staying away from me only after a couple of crashes where both skaters involved (me and the other girl) were mildly stunned. Started happening a few years ago again and I went to the skating director straight away and had a hissy fit, given that I had been unable to complete an end pattern in a dance I was testing the following week for an entire session I had driven an hour and a half to attend. Unfortunately, the squeaky wheel usually gets the grease in these situations.

[dbny]

I think colliding with anyone is very risky and could land you in a cast and in trouble. That said, it can't hurt to show a little fearlessness yourself and see who gives way. I really like Morgail's suggestion. That's pretty much how I operated as a skater before I began coaching, and it does help.

[GoSveta]

Thanks for the recommendations. I will try the safe ones :)

I would talk to your coach and ask him/her to speak to those kids' coaches, especially since it's occurring while you're in a lesson.

You might also try dbny's "Excuse Me!" when you have the right of way.

One thing that might help is being friendly with the kids who are the troublemakers. Catch one alone and say something nice, like "I really like your program music" or "Your axel's really good. How long did it take you to land it?". Then keep it up, smiling at the kid when you see him/her or engaging the kid in a quick conversation once in a while. Do the same with the kid's parents. It's harder to be nasty to someone who goes out of their way to be nice to you. And if you're friendly with the parent, the parent is more likely to say something to the kid if she deliberately cuts you off.

They have no issues having 30+ minute group conversations with me off the ice, and all the mothers talk to me, all the time.

Some of them just seem to have split personalities: On-Ice and Off-Ice.

[RachelSk8er]

As of today, my coach has officially banned me from skating on our adult sessions. Those seem to be the worst--too many skaters not paying any attention to their surroundings. I'm the strongest/highest tested on those sessions usually and most of the skaters seem to think that because of that, I'll move out of their way and avoid them, so they pay no attention. Last night I couldn't work on my moves or even run sections of my program. Part of the problem is that the level of skating on this session is generally very low, beginners to just barely bronzes. One skater has been inviting tons of people in the adult LTS classes. That's great for numbers, but they just don't get right-of-way, or they will stop in the middle of the ice to watch me do something and be in my way because of it. Or they just don't recognize music for the higher dances and translate to hearing the Starlight to meaning "stay out of Rachel's way". And there is an adult TOI group practicing on this session too that expects everyone to stay out of their way. Even when they are huddled in the corner discussing their routine so that when I'm running my program with the music I can't do my lutz.

So then I can't get any work done and I just get frustrated and goof off instead, and as a result, my moves test has taken a little step back. It sucks, I like the skaters on these sessions and I want to go to support us getting adult ice back and to also be a role model (since I'm one of the ones who is more involved in competing), but at the same time if I can't get work done, it's not really worth the time/money. Ideally my coach wants me back on intermediate + sessions (which my club allows me on since my dance/moves are not proportionate to my FS) where I work a LOT harder, but d/t my schedule I can't make any of them.

[blue111moon]

Uhm, I don't mean to be harsh, but one of the very first rules I was taught about right of way, was that the more-accomplished skaters have the obligation to look out for the less-skilled ones, simply because the high-test ones are more capable of changing direction and stopping.

I learned that one summer when a friend and I traveled to take some lessons with a National-level coach at a private training center. The ice was Open Freestyle but most of the people on it were National Junior and Senior competitors. After ten minutes of watching me duck and swerve and bail out of single jump attempts, the coach snapped at me "Just do your thing! They're better than you! They'll get out of your way!" And to my shock, they did. Up until that point, I had been told (by lower-level coaches and parents mostly) that adults yielded to kids ALL THE TIME, just because I was an adult and supposed to be more aware. Mind you, at that point, I was lucky to be able to get out of my own way,, let alone someone else's. :)

Nonetheless, I did my best to avoid being an obstacle to them. But, as the coach pointed out, we're all paying the same amount for the ice time, and we're all entitled to use it as best as we can. That said, though, I do try to avoid higher-test sessions if at all possible.

[Skittl1321]

I've also been taught it's the responsibility of the better skater to get out of the way of the less skilled skater.

However, I've only understood that to mean when the order of the right of way is questionable (or when it's clear the lower level skater does not have the means to get out of the way). Not that a low level skater always has ROW over a high level one.

So a senior level skater in lesson, doing a program to music shouldn't be expected to have to continually yield to pre-pre skaters just playing around. She should only have to yield if an unexpected circumstance comes up and a skater doesn't understand they got in the way. If Rachelsk8r is having to continually yield when she has right of way of clueless skaters, she has a point that the session is useless to her.

But if two skaters were out of lesson doing programs without music (so right of way is questionable between the two of them) then the higher skater should yield.

(I kind of feel the same way as an adult. It doesn't matter that the 9 year old is better than me, when fingering pointing starts I always feel like the "you're an adult, you should have known better" will come up.)


My pet peeve: Skaters have right of way whenever their program music plays. I really think this should have a limit to it. If a skater is hogging the stereo and everyone else is working on something other than a program, is it really necessary to yield to the same skater for the entire hour? Some skaters can get their programs in a good 20 times in a session. I don't know what the actual answer is, because it seems that most other sessions have monitors who determine when skaters music can play, maybe this is unique to my rink. But I feel that after the 10th or so time you've done your program in an hour long session, I shouldn't have to yield everytime anymore, you can go around my moves pattern (usually in lesson, since right now I'm almost only skating in lesson) while practicing it. I got out of the way for you, wasting my LESSON time, the first 9 times.

(If they are in lesson and the coach is having them do their program 10-15 times, I usually just move without being too annoyed, they are in lesson too. But when they are just playing around with their program, it bugs the crap out of me.)

[Debbie S]

Or they just don't recognize music for the higher dances and translate to hearing the Starlight to meaning "stay out of Rachel's way". I understand your frustration, but if someone does not do dance, there's no way they can discern the different dance rhythms and match to the patterns skaters are doing to tell who's doing what. My club ice has a lot of dancers - at any given moment, some may be practicing in lesson, some not in lesson. Usually the music is for a skater in lesson, but sometimes dancers not in lesson will have music on. After 5 years, I can still only recognize the Paso, the Blues, and the Hickory Hoedown (all waltzes sound the same to me, lol), and I don't know the patterns, so unless I happen to know the skater that is working on that, or actually see a coach start the music, I have no idea who the music is for. I do the best I can to stay out of the way of dancers, esp when they're in lesson, but unintentionally crossing into their pattern is unavoidable. I want to get work done, too, esp when I'm in lesson.

I once had another adult skater, who does dance, come up to me and take me to task for not seeing a dancer in lesson when I was in the middle of a spin. :roll: This person is your garden variety know-it-all annoying twit. I was spinning in the center, where club rules say spins should be done, and when I finished the spin, she came up to me and asked if I knew that on an FS session, people playing music had the ROW - gee, this is only my first time on an FS session. :roll: I said yes (wanted to say something else but there were little kids around) and she said in a teacher-ish voice, "You almost just got run over by a Starlight" - I'm thinking, who? Then I realized she was referring to another skater doing dance. But really, it's up to that skater and coach to tell me I'm in the way, and how was I supposed to see them coming toward the center when I'm in the middle of a spin?

Then another time, Twit yelled from the other side of the rink for me to "Move!" (as if someone appointed her rink monitor :roll:) when a dancer and her coach were heading in my direction. Except I didn't know which way they were going, so I didn't know which way I should move to get out of their path, so I guessed, and guessed wrong. Thankfully, we each stopped short of colliding. Twit should have just kept her mouth shut. I just ignore her now, anyway.

[Skittl1321]

ooh- can I complain about dance too...

There is a woman at our rink who constantly plays the compulsory dance CD for music. (Seriously- it's a problem. We have to fight her for the music. For programs. But it is the only break we get from the group of skaters who do their programs over and over and over) She sometimes does the dances, but generally it's background music to her stroking, which usually isn't even in time.

As such, no one pays attention to dance music. So when you are doing a compulsory dance to music, NO ONE, connects "dance music" to "in program"- they all think of it as horrible background music.

I don't think it's expected for every skater to know every dance, but I think reasonable effort should be made to stay out of the way of dancers skating to music. The movement of the dance should be "learned" in the same way that you learn a skater's program by the end of the season. A dancer skating a compulsory dance is in program, just as much a a freestyle skater is when their music plays. And even easier- the steps to compulsories are available for anyone to look at. It's not like a program where you have to pay attention so you can eventually learn where to expect skaters to be while their music is on.

[kayskate]

My pet peeve: Skaters have right of way whenever their program music plays. I really think this should have a limit to it. If a skater is hogging the stereo and everyone else is working on something other than a program, is it really necessary to yield to the same skater for the entire hour?

I've dealt w this situation too. This is my personal approach. I don't know if there is an "official" guide line. The first time, I yield, as is common courtesy. The second time, I do my thing and keep an eye out. After that, I hold my ground. IMO, no one has the right to expect others to yield repeatedly even if they are doing a program (assuming it is not in a lesson).

Kay

[davincisoprano1]

When I'd go to freestyle sessions, I would always keep watch for who was in a lesson so I didn't skate right through it, and I would figure out whose music went to who. I still associate Vivaldi's Four Seasons with this little boy years ago, because when I heard it I knew he'd be doing triples and I definitely didn't want to be in the way of that. I guess I was always the one not getting as much practicing in because I was too focused on watching out for everyone else.

At public sessions I'm much better than I used to be and can dodge around people much easier than I could before. But it gets to be hard trying to not knock over the little ones that get closer to you when you go to do a spin.
Moth to the flame effect.

[hanca]

My pet peeve: Skaters have right of way whenever their program music plays. I really think this should have a limit to it. If a skater is hogging the stereo and everyone else is working on something other than a program, is it really necessary to yield to the same skater for the entire hour? Some skaters can get their programs in a good 20 times in a session. I don't know what the actual answer is, because it seems that most other sessions have monitors who determine when skaters music can play, maybe this is unique to my rink. But I feel that after the 10th or so time you've done your program in an hour long session, I shouldn't have to yield everytime anymore, you can go around my moves pattern (usually in lesson, since right now I'm almost only skating in lesson) while practicing it. I got out of the way for you, wasting my LESSON time, the first 9 times.

(If they are in lesson and the coach is having them do their program 10-15 times, I usually just move without being too annoyed, they are in lesson too. But when they are just playing around with their program, it bugs the crap out of me.)

I usually do program twice per lesson; if one of them is awful then three times (once extra to make it better). However, I did have a lesson when I did it five times. It was when every attempt I have done to skate a clean program was interrupted by someone getting into my way while I was starting a jump and I did not jump because I didn't want to land on them. It is so frustrating! Imagine, you have before competition or test, all you want is to have one clean skate of your program and someone gets into your way. Fine, you start again (when you can). Someone again gets into your way.... Having clean program gives you confidence for the test or competition, but knowing that you had to miss 2 elements (out of 7) won't give you the confidence (even if you know that missing them was not your fault). So to gain the confidence you are willing to start again, and again...I think it is pretty frustarting not being able to do a clean program and starting again and again. I know it is awful for other people to hear the music repeatedly, but has anyone thought about the fact that if the person could do it properly once, they may not have to repeat it again and again?

[hanca]

I understand your frustration, but if someone does not do dance, there's no way they can discern the different dance rhythms and match to the patterns skaters are doing to tell who's doing what.

Well, I don't think you need to know all the patters because the compulsory dances all go anti clock wise in circle-ish shape so just make sure you keep moving if someone is doing compulsory dances and aim somewhere where they don't aim and you will be fine. :lol:

[Ellyn]

It does help to know which dances have deep lobes that curve into the center of the ice and back toward the boards (and where), and which ones maintain a more or less even oval shape.

That's a lot easier to learn than every kid's (or adult's) program, especially if your schedule and the schedules of the other skaters at your rink are such that you don't always skate with the same skaters week in and week out. Over the course of a few months I might share ice with 100 or more different skaters of various levels. Maybe 30 of them I skate with often enough to know by name and/or music and program layout.

Our monitors announce who's doing a program and what color sash they're wearing, so I do try to look out for those skaters. And if it's a high-level skater whom I won't be able to get out of the way of quickly enough, I try to stay on the other end of the rink or stay by the boards.

At least the high-level skaters I'm more likely to recognize.

[Skittl1321]

I know it is awful for other people to hear the music repeatedly, but has anyone thought about the fact that if the person could do it properly once, they may not have to repeat it again and again?

I'm not kidding when I say 20 times in a session. And it's not restarting the program- it's doing the whole thing. And these kids aren't in lesson- if they were in lesson doing a program to music, I'd have no problem yielding, though I wish they'd give me the same courtesy.

And a big competition is not coming up. This is every session.
(When sectionals were coming up, pretty much everyone just stood to the side while our teams did their programs. We don't have too many qualifying skaters at my rink. It was easy just to step aside and watch, so no yielding issues existed at all.)

It has nothing to do with it being awful to hear their music (though I do feel that way about the "background" dance music, although to be honest- most of this is ISI spotlight and footwork, so it's bad cutesy music) it's that I can't take a lesson because I spend the whole time watching where the same kid is going.

[Debbie S]

Well, I don't think you need to know all the patters because the compulsory dances all go anti clock wise in circle-ish shape so just make sure you keep moving if someone is doing compulsory dances and aim somewhere where they don't aim and you will be fine. :lol:Um, are you trying to be serious here? Gee, I didn't know dances went CCW, thanks for informing me. And yeah, it's great advice to "keep moving" (since I usually stand in 1 spot the entire time :roll:) and just not go where dancers go, which would be "CCW", so I should go in the opposite direction, according to your logic? :roll:

As Ellyn pointed out, all dances have different patterns and the lobe placement is not identical. And not all skaters move in a CCW circle around the rink (this is FS, not a public session). Some moves patterns go diagonally, some go in a large circle in the center (i.e. power circles, 8-step). FS programs go everywhere. If a skater is doing power circles in a lesson and there are 3 or 4 dancers out there, 2 in lesson and the other 2 practicing solo, and maybe one of the dancers in lesson is playing the music or maybe it belongs to a skater not in lesson, it's inevitable that someone is going to get in someone's way and/or have to alter their pattern. And each has some priority - there are just some times where someone (or several) has to stop in order to avoid getting hurt.

I usually try to yield to everyone I can where it's called for, but if I've yielded to a skater once already in a session, and if neither of us has greater claim to the ice (neither is in lesson), then I hold my ground. I suppose there are limits - I'm not going to risk another broken limb - but I will then sometimes yell at them to watch it in my former-teacher voice. That at least gets their attention, lol.

[GoSveta]

When I'd go to freestyle sessions, I would always keep watch for who was in a lesson so I didn't skate right through it, and I would figure out whose music went to who. I still associate Vivaldi's Four Seasons with this little boy years ago, because when I heard it I knew he'd be doing triples and I definitely didn't want to be in the way of that. I guess I was always the one not getting as much practicing in because I was too focused on watching out for everyone else.

At public sessions I'm much better than I used to be and can dodge around people much easier than I could before. But it gets to be hard trying to not knock over the little ones that get closer to you when you go to do a spin.
Moth to the flame effect.
This is exactly what my problem is.

[Casey]

Personally, I'd just play their game right back at them. Maintain etiquette with most people, but just ignore the problem folks, and if they happen to get in your way, don't yield. Increase the intensity of your skating so that you're every bit as fast as they are. Odds are that you are never really in danger of being hit, but they'll get close enough to make you think you are, as an intimidation tactic. So do the same right back - don't run into them outright, but come as close as you can to doing so without actually making contact.

This has worked well for me in the past when I've had to deal with such personalities. But then, I'm the sort of skater who will accidentally scare the bejesus out of overprotective parents and paranoid slow skaters on public sessions. :twisted: I've been complained about to rink staff, but they take my side in things because they know I don't ever hit anyone.

[tazsk8s]

Except I didn't know which way they were going, so I didn't know which way I should move to get out of their path, so I guessed, and guessed wrong. Thankfully, we each stopped short of colliding.

We used to have an adult ice dance team at our rink. Unfortunately I seemed to always be in their way no matter what I did...I'd try and guess where they were going so I could go the other way, only to end up in their way anyway. Even flattening myself against the boards when I saw them coming was no good...I did it once only to get loudly berated by the woman anyway ("We could have gotten tangled up with you and fallen!!") Couldn't win for trying...as nice as it can be to have other adults on the ice, I wasn't too sorry when they moved on to another rink.

[Debbie S]

We used to have an adult ice dance team at our rink. Unfortunately I seemed to always be in their way no matter what I did...I'd try and guess where they were going so I could go the other way, only to end up in their way anyway. Even flattening myself against the boards when I saw them coming was no good...I did it once only to get loudly berated by the woman anyway ("We could have gotten tangled up with you and fallen!!") Couldn't win for trying...as nice as it can be to have other adults on the ice, I wasn't too sorry when they moved on to another rink.When I first started skating on my club's ice, I tried to move out of the way when I saw dancer/coach pairs coming and I would usually end up in their way. I would apologize and they would be OK about it (no berating, thank goodness), but after a few near-misses, one adult dancer told me the best thing to do was to stand still so they could see me and go around me, versus trying to figure out where I was going (and me doing the same with them, lol). So now when I see dancers coming, I move to the boards if I'm close or I stand still. If I'm near a coach or other skater that is somewhat stationary, I'll move next to them so that we're one big object instead of two smaller ones - easier to see and move around us. Unless the dance path seems to be between me and the other person, and then I just pray, lol.

Today, there was a teenager whose mother must have restarted her music 5 times in quick succession. The girl was trying to land her axel, which was in the first 10 secs or so of her program, and kept falling or popping, and the mother would start the music over. I felt like going over to the mother and pointing out that the kid's not going to get her music restarted in comp, but I refrained. :roll:

[hanca]

Um, are you trying to be serious here? Gee, I didn't know dances went CCW, thanks for informing me. And yeah, it's great advice to "keep moving" (since I usually stand in 1 spot the entire time :roll:) and just not go where dancers go, which would be "CCW", so I should go in the opposite direction, according to your logic? :roll:


I am sorry if I have offended you, but I really don't understand what the problem is with keeping out of their way. I don't dance myself, so I don't know at all the patterns, but somehow I don't seem to have the problem to keep pout of their way... As long as I keep moving, it is pretty easy to keep out of their way. It is much more difficult with free dance or free skating programs which don't have patterns.