Learning the Axel - How long?

[Scarlett]

I just start seriously working on the axel. I am at the very beginning stages doing lots of waltz-loops and waltz-back spins. I already can see how this is going to be the hardest, most frustrating thing I've ever done.

My question to the forum is two fold:

1. How long did it take to learn the axel from the first drill to actually having the jump?
2. Did anyone else feel like kicking old Axel Paulsen in the teeth?

[AgnesNitt]

Well Johnny Wier learned the axel in a week and triples in three. :twisted:

No one ever says how long it took him to learn counters and rockers though.

[doubletoe]

It took me over a year to land my axel on the floor, but then one day it just clicked and I did it. Interestingly, the timing coincided with my backspin progress. ;) After landing it on the floor, it took me another year to land it on the ice without the harness. That transition was partially physical (the skates are heavy and bulky so it's harder to pull into the right air position), but probably mostly mental. I was 38. Your mileage may vary.

[MusicSkateFan]

There will be ups and downs. I spent a good year on drills (waltz, loop...waltz, back 3's etc.) In that time working on harness with coach. Got pretty consistant on harness. Land a few off harness then had to go back into harness when I would lose it. Been almost 2 years now..went through a bad patch this fall when I had a fluke fall on an axel and suffered a concussion. Took several weeks off goin back to just drills. Today in my lesson I landed 6 clean of 8 tries. Actually was working on landing position.

There was those times when I thought I would never get it and times when people thought I should stop trying because of all the Big falls. Keep at it...let it happen and it will!

My coach is not a fan of "stand still" axels I had to learn mine with flow in and out which made it harder but I think in the long run it will serve me better.

[vesperholly]

The first time I landed it, I was 17 and I think I'd been working on it for a year and a half. Didn't have it very consistent and lost it for years. Finally got it back when I was 26 after working on it for about 3 years. It took another 6 months to get it really consistent, and then a few years until I landed it in competition (to be fair, I only compete 1-2 times a year).

I could never do it from a standstill. Even to this day.

[AxelBaby]

I feel like it took me FOREVER to land that stupid axel. And yes...I cursed the inventor every single time attempted the jump. Now it is one of my favorite jumps.

I actually landed the third one I tried. Complete fluke as I couldn't land it for months afterwards. I think it took me about 10 months before I would say that it was really consistent. Largely because I REFUSED to have an "adult axel." Which at our rink means that you clearly pre-rotate on the ice.

Now I actually have a quite nice axel. Good height and great ice coverage. And it actually looks very much as if I learned it as a child.

One piece of advice I have on the axel is that you just need to go for it. I believe this is a jump that you will NOT land unless you give it 110% all the time. Also you just need to start falling. All of the waltz-loop and waltz-backspin drills did nothing for me. I can't do it from a standstill and I actually still have a hideous off ice axel. Though I can do double axel off ice on my "bad" side.

I just had to have a little faith and start hurling myself in the air. Eventually my body figured out where it was supposed to be. And yes, I took an incredible amount of spectacular falls during this process. I have seen a lot of children and adults work on this jump who are afraid to fall on it, and in my opinion it is certainly a jump you can't learn unless you start falling.

Try not to get discouraged. This is one of those finicky jumps. I never had a problem on any of my other singles. I had waltz through lutz all within about two months of putting on my first pair of skates. And I actually landed all of my doubles up through double flip (not consistently of course) before I had a solid axel.

I shed a lot of tears over this "darned axel" but it is definitely one of my favorite jumps now. And seriously, when you land it for the first time, clean, there is no other feeling on earth. Good luck!!!

[Ellyn]

Took about 6 months from first preparatory exercises to minimally acceptable successes when I was 14. Then I quit shortly afterward.

It took 2-3 years of practice and lessons to get it back in my 30s. But I haven't done it in years and probably never will again. :(

[doubletoe]

And seriously, when you land it for the first time, clean, there is no other feeling on earth.

That is so true! I'll never forget the moment I landed my first axel. I was getting really close to a clean landing, then a teenager who was working on her axel suggested I slow my setup down to a crawl. I tried that, and it must have helped my alignment on the takeoff, because next thing I knew, I had just landed on a clean back outside edge. I literally stopped and retraced the jump in my mind because it had felt too easy. "OK, did I land backward? Definitely yes. Did I take off forward? Definitely yes. Was it a waltz jump? Definitely not. OK, then it HAD to be an axel. So I just landed an axel!" LOL!

[RachelSk8er]

When I was a kid, it took me one session of flinging my body in the air from a forward take-off to get 1.5 revs and land backwards on one foot. Within a few weeks, my body flinging axels were consistent, even in competition. I took lessons from a coach who allowed this total lack of technique and bad habit development. Then I grew 3", all hell broke loose, all my jumps went away, and I quit freestyle and just did synchro.

I started freestyle again about 2.5 years ago with a coach who will not let me fling myself about (plus I'm 29 and have no desire to do that anyway). We started working on axels 2 yrs ago and I *still* don't have it clean, but it's more for lack of time and other priorities and things to accomplish and injuries that got in the way than actual ability.

Over the past 2 yrs, I had to also re-learn all my other jumps properly ('cause guess what, they had no technique either), and had to learn how to spin because I was NEVER a good spinner (when I started freestyle again, all I could do any more was a scratch spin that traveled really far) and an axel was going to get me nowhere competing adult silver if my spins were lacking. And I had to get the backspin down first. I started law school so my ice time has been cut down drastically. And now I'm trying to get my junior moves passed before September.

Last summer we actually buckled down on my axel and got it to where I had it in my program and tried it in competition in August (just in compulsory, pulled it for freestyle because I didn't need it). Then I injured my left ankle in October, was off the ice for a few months, and once I was strong enough to really skate again, it was time to get my program back together and work on strengthening what I already had so I would be ready for competition season, and not worry about the axel--I had a lot of tissue damage that didn't fully heal to where I could handle an axel take-off until March anyway, and at that point we were only a month from ANs. (Only one person in my group at ANs landed 'em clean anyway.)

We started back on axels again last month. I limit myself to 10 minutes/session and 5-10 minutes of lesson time on them. It's back to being up and fully rotated and I just scrape the toe of the free foot down on the landing (on a good attempt) because I have timing issues that we need to work out mostly stemming from the take-off. Goal is to have it by the end of Summer but I'd rather have my junior moves, so if the axel doesn't happen, it's not the end of the world.

I hate stand still axels too, my coach doesn't make me do them any more. Part of my issue is that I overthink the axel rather than just letting it happen. Same with my lutz. But if we put footwork or other stuff before them, it distracts me. My best axel attempts come from doing footwork into them (RBI 3-change edge, step forward and jump), my best lutzes have a bracket entry.

[Ellyn]

I hate stand still axels too, my coach doesn't make me do them any more. Part of my issue is that I overthink the axel rather than just letting it happen. Same with my lutz. But if we put footwork or other stuff before them, it distracts me. My best axel attempts come from doing footwork into them (RBI 3-change edge, step forward and jump), my best lutzes have a bracket entry.

Ha. I've never done an axel at speed, but I did have to do it stepping forward from a back outside edge. However, when I was working on getting it back as an adult I found that if I did a RFO rocker, or a two-foot rocker in that direction, before stepping from RBO to LFO takeoff, my shoulder muscles would be engaged in an advantageous way for me to snap the rotation.

[doubletoe]

Ha. I've never done an axel at speed, but I did have to do it stepping forward from a back outside edge. However, when I was working on getting it back as an adult I found that if I did a RFO rocker, or a two-foot rocker in that direction, before stepping from RBO to LFO takeoff, my shoulder muscles would be engaged in an advantageous way for me to snap the rotation.

That's brilliant! :D

[RachelSk8er]

Ha. I've never done an axel at speed, but I did have to do it stepping forward from a back outside edge. However, when I was working on getting it back as an adult I found that if I did a RFO rocker, or a two-foot rocker in that direction, before stepping from RBO to LFO takeoff, my shoulder muscles would be engaged in an advantageous way for me to snap the rotation.

I want to try from a rocker tomorrow when I skate again. Except at my last lesson, I was banished to my coach's take-off drills until I get the timing of my knee coming through first and my shoulders pinched back enough down again. And rather than just going for the whole thing when he's not around, I am actually listening to him this time. :giveup:

[Scarlett]

Thanks for the advice. I was looking for a basic idea of how long it took adults to learn the axel and now I have a good idea. I skate with a bunch of kids and its hard to get an accurate feel for how long things typically take when you are over 30.

[AshBugg44]

There is no correct answer. I have seen people get in within a couple months, and I saw someone work on it for YEARS (and she was not an adult!) before getting it. She passed her senior moves and couldn't land an axel, not even kidding! There are so many factors that go into that darn jump that the amount of time it takes for any given person is different than the person next to them.

[RachelSk8er]

There is no correct answer. I have seen people get in within a couple months, and I saw someone work on it for YEARS (and she was not an adult!) before getting it. She passed her senior moves and couldn't land an axel, not even kidding! There are so many factors that go into that darn jump that the amount of time it takes for any given person is different than the person next to them.


I have a friend who has struggled with axels since she was a teenager. She's now 25, has her senior moves, and still doesn't have a clean, consistent axel, and still competed in champ gold last year, qualifying based on the strength of her skating skills and her spins. (She landed her axel in the retry on her test the 2nd time she took it to pass but that's really the only clean one she's done in a test or competition.) So needless to say, the axel is not the be-all, end all, and has little to do with your actual skating skills. (I'm on my junior moves and pre-gold dances, mine isn't consistent. I have plenty of other friends on intermediate + moves and/or silver + dances who don't have consistent axels.)

A lot of us in silver don't have one at all and still do well against people who are attempting them (and not landing clean) or even landing them because our skating skills and other elements are strong. A lot of people put them in their program even though they know they have no shot of landing it...personally my theory is that I'd rather not throw away a strong, clean single I can do, like a loop jump, for an axel I probably won't land, and I'd rather spend my limited skating time working on other things that will probably make a difference in how I place, like my spins (which up until recently really sucked). I've finished ahead of people who have had axel attempts or even clean (although sometimes cheated) axels plenty of times by just being a stronger skater. I do plan to have it in my program this year now that my spins are stronger and my flying camel is finally consistent.

So depending on what level you compete or plan to compete, there may be no sense in beating yourself up over it and rushing to get it. Unless, of course, you're in a hurry to move up to gold, in which case you need it to pass the test (and even then, that only applies to sectionals/ANs, you can skate up at any other competition without the test).

[climbsk8]

First of all, congrats to Rachel. It sounds like you're really on the right track! Now, patience....

Here's my question. I started landing my axel in competition in 2002. I tested Adult Gold in 2004. It's now 2010 and it still is no more consistent than when I first started landing it. I'm about 50-60%, although some days I just show up at the rink and forget to bring it with me!

Once you start landing it ... what's the secret to make it more consistent? I haven't had any breaks in my skating, only a couple of big crashes on the axel, no injuries from it, and I'm blessed with amazing coaches.

I should also mention that I was never allowed to do the jump from a standstill or a hop-start, and because of my knees I don't do jumps off ice. It always felt totally different to me anyway.

[vesperholly]

Once you start landing it ... what's the secret to make it more consistent? I haven't had any breaks in my skating, only a couple of big crashes on the axel, no injuries from it, and I'm blessed with amazing coaches.

Personally, it took a whole lot of PATIENCE. For many skaters, the jump will come and go for a while after they first land it. I think it's almost easier to build bad habits when you've landed the axel. Once you've tasted the forbidden fruit, it can be very tempting to be even more desperate to land it again and again, because now you know you can!

It's really important to remember when the jump goes for a bit, don't start flinging yourself willy nilly out of desperation. Aim for good technique and good attempts, because that's what you want your body to learn. Give yourself a limited number of attempts, and then STOP.

[techskater]

Not only patience that it will come but patience on the entry. A good Axel entry will float through the entry edge and it will seem like you wait a good long time to take off

[RachelSk8er]

Not only patience that it will come but patience on the entry. A good Axel entry will float through the entry edge and it will seem like you wait a good long time to take off

My coach's theory on axel takeoffs is that not having figures any more makes it harder to get the correct feel. Back when skaters had to do figures, by the time they got to where they were starting axels, they automatically knew the feel of being on a LFO edge (for a CCW jumper) over the circle with the body aligned so that the right shoulder stayed back where it needs to stay for an axel take-off. Fast forward 15 years. No figures. Skaters don't really learn that (lobes in moves doesn't teach it). So it's one more thing to have to get working properly before you have a shot at even landing it cleanly.

[Purple Sparkly]

It took me about 9 months to land it when I was 14 and skating maybe two or three times a week. It was never very consistent and I always hated the jump and was scared of it. My coaches made me do what they called the "question mark" set-up. I still use this set-up for flip and double toe, but it is really strange for the axel and now I wonder why they made me do it.

Anyway, after I stopped skating for two years, I could land them inconsistently when I came back at 21, but they were not very good and my new coach hated them. We rewinded and I only practiced them on the line at creepy crawly pace until they got better. I jump CCW, so I did a RFO edge before stepping into the jump. Now the axel is one of my best jumps. I can do it from stand still, from a hop, or from lots of speed. I can do three in a row. I can still do it after not skating for two weeks. I think it may surprise those that have seen my axels that I used to struggle with it so much.

[fsk8r]

It took me about 9 months to land it when I was 14 and skating maybe two or three times a week. It was never very consistent and I always hated the jump and was scared of it. My coaches made me do what they called the "question mark" set-up. I still use this set-up for flip and double toe, but it is really strange for the axel and now I wonder why they made me do it.

Anyway, after I stopped skating for two years, I could land them inconsistently when I came back at 21, but they were not very good and my new coach hated them. We rewinded and I only practiced them on the line at creepy crawly pace until they got better. I jump CCW, so I did a RFO edge before stepping into the jump. Now the axel is one of my best jumps. I can do it from stand still, from a hop, or from lots of speed. I can do three in a row. I can still do it after not skating for two weeks. I think it may surprise those that have seen my axels that I used to struggle with it so much.

Can you explain what the "question mark" setup is? I've seen reference to it before somewhere (can't find it now!) and am curious as I've just had a few setups created for my singles to try and get me to skate into them faster.

[RachelSk8er]

Now the axel is one of my best jumps. I can do it from stand still, from a hop, or from lots of speed. I can do three in a row. I can still do it after not skating for two weeks. I think it may surprise those that have seen my axels that I used to struggle with it so much.

Yeah, they are very big and floatey. Because you take your time on the entry, stay down, and don't just fling yourself into the air and start rotating too soon (which a lot of people who land them clean still do, which is what keeps them from being floatey).

[Stormy]

I think it may surprise those that have seen my axels that I used to struggle with it so much.

It surprises me a little, but also gives me hope that mine will someday look like yours!! It's a great axel, like Rachel said, big and floaty.

[vesperholly]

Can you explain what the "question mark" setup is? I've seen reference to it before somewhere (can't find it now!) and am curious as I've just had a few setups created for my singles to try and get me to skate into them faster.

I do a question mark setup too, in fact it's the only setup that works for me. You do crossovers clockwise, then do a change of edge (two foot or one foot) so you're on a RBO edge. I usually do 1 or 2 crossovers, then hold the RBI, do a wide step with the left foot to get onto the RBO edge, and jump. For me, it solved the problem of having my right shoulder come around too early by forcing me to check it. If I do a CCW circle, I can't hold the check.

I don't have a "floaty" axel like Purple Sparkly, but here's a video of me doing that setup anyways (yes I need to kick through more):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STkt4hz_rJk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNQ0Cc6tHgE

[doubletoe]

I don't have a "floaty" axel like Purple Sparkly, but here's a video of me doing that setup anyways (yes I need to kick through more):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STkt4hz_rJk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNQ0Cc6tHgE

Fantastic!:bow:

[RachelSk8er]

Oh snap, peeps (Sparkly and Holly and Stormy), I'm at work and just thought of us in Olive Garden at ANs and just busted out lauging at my desk and now everyone is wondering what is up with me.

Ok, carry on. Back to axels. Or my lack of one.

[vesperholly]

Oh snap, peeps (Sparkly and Holly and Stormy), I'm at work and just thought of us in Olive Garden at ANs and just busted out lauging at my desk and now everyone is wondering what is up with me.

Ok, carry on. Back to axels. Or my lack of one.

Oh man. That dinner was the best. Bananaphone.