ISU Underrotation Rules

[Pandora]

The other way is to force elements with minimal finesse. The forceful skater uses speed and strength to complete the elements. While they appear to be doing the actual element, the checks, edging and full position/rotation isn't always there.


Actually, this brings up an interesting point I have been wondering about. (Don't know if I should discuss it here. Maybe need to start a new thread.) But I thought that in another thread somewhere I read that one of the new changes going through the ISU this year concerned "cheated" jumps getting some value (more than the lesser jump but not the value of the higher jump). For example, 2 complete rotations on a 2axel landed forward with a 3 turn would be worth more base value than a single but not up to a fully clean 2axel. I'm not talking about GOE here, just base value. Does anyone know anything about this?????

[Pandora]

Oh!! I just found the answer on another forum. It says that:

Jump under-rotated by 1/4 to 1/2 revolution gets 70% of base value. Jump under-rotated by more than 1/2 gets downgraded to next lower jump.

So this would tend to favor the "muscling jumps" side. ;)

Of course, a judge who was not on our "side" could slam us with GOE. :(

Still 70% is pretty good..... :)

[Skittl1321]

Of course, a judge who was not on our "side" could slam us with GOE. :(

Still 70% is pretty good..... :)

I think if the jump is underrotated to the naked eye- the negative GOE will happen.

It's jumps that only the tech caller can see on slow-mo that the judges don't mark down.

[Pandora]

So, technically, if there is a clear 3 turn, (1/2 rotation short), then "officially" the skater should get 70% of the higher base value...... But he/she would be hit with a negative GOE (from -1 to -3). Right?

P.S. This thread got moved from the "steady vs hate" thread. That is why it is kind of "odd" looking out here on it's own.

Cool. 8-) Have found answer to this. Was wondering about it for a while....

[Skittl1321]

No, jumps from 1/4 to 1/2 get 70% of the base value.

If you have 1/2 or more- then it's a single or double depending on if you were doing a double or triple. And they also likely get the negative GOE. So if you are underrotating by 1/2 you are going to get hit hard.

(Actually it looks like depending on where you read the ruling the exactly 1/2 mark is questionable. Still- I wouldn't risk underrotating by that much if you are planning to underrotate, in case the caller takes the harder stance. But why PLAN to underrotate? Fix the jumps! <--- says the girl who spent a year and a half learning to not toe-waltz.)

[fsk8r]

This is actually a good thing for those of us only doing singles and coming up against harsh tech panels without slow-mo replay. At least there's a chance that we might get something called. It's very demoralising when your coach tells you that your jumps were clean on the video, but the score sheet says that they weren't and the only thing called was the step sequence.
The rules were written for people doing triple jumps and those at the lower ends are stuck trying to work within them when they weren't designed for us.

[Pandora]

Actually, this is also interesting because I had a discussion about it with another skater who is also working on her 2axel (although she is 10 years younger than me). She has always been an ice skater (as a child). And she is going for the "whole thing": That is, the complete 2 1/2 revs. Now, I am taking the "roller approach" by going for the full 3 turn at the end in order to find my axis (the axis is not the same as on the single.) When I feel secure on my takeoff and I know where the axis is, then I will add the power for the full rotation. This is how all jumps work on roller.

Now, on ice I can see that she has "good" air position which means her legs are very tight and toes are pointed. I guess it is difficut/impossible? for her to land forward and "cheat" because when she does come down 1/2 short she just hits her picks and falls forward, (not flat enough on the blade to 3 turn it.) I am, of couse, much looser in the air and can save the jump with the 3 turn.....

I was thinking this is a difference between ice and roller, but then I noticed that almost all of the kids at the rink are "cheating" their doubles as they learn them, (landing forward and turning), even the ones with "good" air position. Their coaches seem happy with this. Eventually these kids find their axis and rotate it like we did on roller. It only seems to be the late teens/adults who have a problem with this approach. It is kind of an ego thing.... I don't cheat my jumps....You know what I mean?

I would argue you should cheat your jumps until you learn where your axis is.... But like I said this might just be another way of approaching the added rotation. I like my way better, it hurts less....;)

[Pandora]

This is actually a good thing for those of us only doing singles and coming up against harsh tech panels without slow-mo replay. At least there's a chance that we might get something called. It's very demoralising when your coach tells you that your jumps were clean on the video, but the score sheet says that they weren't and the only thing called was the step sequence.


Yes, this is one rule I like. I think it helps almost all of us. :D

[Ellyn]

I would expect that a double jump that lands forward and turns to backward with a three turn on the ice would be downgraded to a single with the new << symbol, not get the 70% base value of the double with the < symbol. And probably average -2 GOE.

I see a lot of skaters at the preliminary and prejuvenile levels putting severely cheated doubles into their programs. These levels are not judged under IJS in the US. I also see it fairly often at juvenile. The thinking is probably that the skaters will get experience putting out "double" jumps in competition and landing them on one foot at this early point in their career and that the quality of their jumps will improve as they move up in skill level and as they get physically stronger. Depending how their bodies change at puberty that may or may not happen -- some will never be able to rotate the jumps fully.

Same with the better juveniles and intermediates attempting double axels, or intermediates and novices attempting triples. Sometimes they put them out in competition knowing they won't get full credit because they want the experience of doing them in competition so that when (if) they do get clean jumps it won't be a new experience trying them in front of judges.

With adults it's a different story, especially adults first learning double or harder jumps as adults. Physical strength is more likely to decrease more quickly than the technique increases.

A juvenile-level skater with cheated doubles is more likely to have clean doubles a few years from now than a gold-level adult-onset skater.

For that matter, former kid skaters at higher levels who used to do clean doubles with ease and even land some triples may struggle to rotate doubles 20+ years later.

But an adult who learns to land moderately cheated (clearly less than 180 degrees) double jumps, or even single axels, as an adult has still accomplished something impressive, so it's good to have that accomplishment be worth more than a bad single . . . or nothing, in the case of the axel.

[Sessy]

The rules were written for people doing triple jumps and those at the lower ends are stuck trying to work within them when they weren't designed for us.

Don't they rate lower level comp stuff in 6.0 anymore then?

[Skittl1321]

Don't they rate lower level comp stuff in 6.0 anymore then?

Yes, but most judges have a very IJS mindset.

[BatikatII]

Don't they rate lower level comp stuff in 6.0 anymore then?

Yes they do but in the UK at least this year's adult championships was held under IJS and they applied the rules incredibly strictly which meant an awful lot of adults had their single jumps disregarded completely despite those same adults having competed previously and tested and passed with the same jumps.

My programme only had the upright spin and the step sequence counted (although it was at least pleasing to get no negative GOE's on these :D) I was coming back from injury but I know my salchow and toe-loops were no worse than when I've previously scored quite well.

The reason given was not always about underrotation but apparently they decided most peoples jumps didn't even merit the -3 GOE (could be on height, air position, landing edges etc) so they didn't count them at all.

This meant there was no differentiation between someone who could make only a pathetic attempt at a jump, maybe not even taking off or landing two footed and someone whose jump was pretty reasonable and consistent and had passed the test at the level.

[fsk8r]

Don't they rate lower level comp stuff in 6.0 anymore then?

The UK is going all IJS in the next couple of years. They've had the first trial Opens for the kids and from next year club competitions can decide which way they want to go.
Adult competitions in mainland Europe tend to all be IJS.

I think Canada has a modified system so waltz jumps have a base value to help the lower level skaters. In the UK waltz jumps are disappearing from competition because they don't count for any points other than a different entry into the second jump.

[Pandora]

I would expect that a double jump that lands forward and turns to backward with a three turn on the ice would be downgraded to a single with the new << symbol, not get the 70% base value of the double with the < symbol. And probably average -2 GOE.

I don't completely understand this because, technically, the new rule says "more than half" for downgrade and 1/4 to 1/2 for 70%, so the full 3 turn (landed forward) would fall on that line. (Know what I mean?)

I guess I am naturally "friendly" to this idea because roller always allowed "extra" points for a "good" cheat (balanced 3 turn that continued speed and flow).....:D

So you think that ice (judges) will come down on the downgrade side since they have a "choice" because the jump is on the "line" and ice seems to have a natural dislike for "cheats".......

Also.....
If you are correct and a judge downgrades to a single and then takes off the -2 GOE is this actually a lower score than a fall on a double?

[Ellyn]

It's not the judges who decide the downgrades, it's the technical panels. The judges just award the GOEs.

Some judges are sticklers; some are more forgiving.

Technical specialists tend to follow the letter of the law in that capacity, as far as I have seen.

I don't know what kind of training they have received, but it would seem to me that once you land on a forward inside edge instead of back outside (or toepick), you're not in a gray area any more -- the jump is clearly at least 180 degrees short.

[kayskate]

When I was learning doubles and the axel as an adult, my coach wanted me to land on 1 foot whether I was under-rotated or not and to stand up. The idea was to get me used to being over my axis and completing the jump w/o a fall so I could build strength. Eventually, I would be able to land the full rotation, which I never did consistently. I think this is a similar mentality to landing a jump in a back spin and completing the rotation on the ice. If the skater is still spinning (rotating) she would eventually be able to continue to rotate in the air as the jump got higher and stronger.

Kay

[aussieskater]

I don't completely understand this because, technically, the new rule says "more than half" for downgrade and 1/4 to 1/2 for 70%, so the full 3 turn (landed forward) would fall on that line. (Know what I mean?)

ISU Communication 1611 (at p1 section 1) actually says:

• A Jump/Throw will be considered as “Under-rotated” if it has “missing rotation of more than ¼, but less than ½ revolutions”.

• A Jump/Throw will be considered as “Downgraded” if it has “missing rotation of ½ revolutions or more”.

So the 180 degree cheat will be downgraded.

[Pandora]

Oh, now that makes sense. :D I got the other wording off another forum and it seemed really confusing as to where a 1/2 rotation would fit in.....This wording makes much more sense.

[Pandora]

When I was learning doubles and the axel as an adult, my coach wanted me to land on 1 foot whether I was under-rotated or not and to stand up. The idea was to get me used to being over my axis and completing the jump w/o a fall so I could build strength.

Yes, that is how we always learned the next rotation on roller. We would delibrately go for the 1/2 cheat. (Roller skates can only land forward or back. Quarters don't work, skate slips out sideways and the dreaded "hip slam" happens. Bad.) :cry: This allowed us to get the "feel" of the new take off and find the new axis. When the 1/2 cheat was "solid" then we would add extra knee bend and speed and try for the whole rotation. That always worked (and it looks like what the younger kids are doing on ice)....BUT...

As I said, when I bring this up to "older" ice skaters (late teens and adults) they tend to think a "cheat" is unacceptable (even as a learning tool), and throw themselves as hard as possible into the air in order to rotate the whole thing.....Ouch!! 8O

At first I thought it had to so with the toepicks catching on the forward landings, but now I think it is more of an ego type thing. ("Better to fall fully rotated than to stand up short of rotation.") Nothing wrong with either approach, (in my opinion), but I was just shocked because they seem to be leaving out a really crucial step.....And the little kids do seem to use the "cheat" method like we did. It is just the older kids/adults who don't. Strange.

Also, it may come into play that on ice "cheats" are heavily deducted (downgraded) while in roller they are given credit...... So if the skater plans to use the jump in a competition, they will need to have it (mostly) around. But I don't see why they skip the "cheat" method as a learning tool. After all, they don't have to actually use the jump until it is clean.....

[RachelSk8er]

It has nothing to do with ego. A lot of teens/adults who start working on doubles have the physical strength to get the full rotation and don't need to cheat the jumps, they just have take-off and landing issues to sort out in order to get it clean. They usually start with drills to build up to the rotation (i.e. doing 1.5 revs and landing forward on 2 feet, and once that's down it's not much more to go for the full rotation). If a skater is physically strong enough to fully rotate a jump, no coach is going to "teach" them to cheat it. The ones I see cheating a lot on the ice are the really little ones who can hardly see over the boards but are working on doubles and they often do not have the strength yet when they start working on them.

Plus, at least under the old rules, you were better off doing a slightly two-footed jump with enough rotation than cheating it. Two of my friends compete in gold. One has a large axel that is fully-rotated but is never landed clean (she touches the free foot down every time). She still gets them called as axels, and just gets a hit to her GOE. Another friend lands hers on one foot but a lot of times they are cheated and don't get called as axels. Whose PCS score takes the bigger hit?



• A Jump/Throw will be considered as “Under-rotated” if it has “missing rotation of more than ¼, but less than ½ revolutions”.

• A Jump/Throw will be considered as “Downgraded” if it has “missing rotation of ½ revolutions or more”.

I wonder how this will work if a jump is cheated on the take-off, rather than the landing. You see this mostly on axels (you know...the "axel" where the take-off edge hooks around so much that the skater is practically backwards before they take off, or they are thinking rotation versus driving the knee through first and wind up starting to rotate before the foot fully leaves the ice)? Those are technically "missing rotation" as far as the wording of the rule is concerned, but the way the take-off is done, it really makes it more of a salchow. An axel with a clean forward take-off that is short rotation on the landing still has the correct forward take-off of an axel.

[Pandora]

Plus, at least under the old rules, you were better off doing a slightly two-footed jump with enough rotation than cheating it. Two of my friends compete in gold. One has a large axel that is fully-rotated but is never landed clean (she touches the free foot down every time). She still gets them called as axels, and just gets a hit to her GOE. Another friend lands hers on one foot but a lot of times they are cheated and don't get called as axels. Whose PCS score takes the bigger hit?

Yes, I think this is where the real diffence is. The ice skates who want to use the jump in competition are better off getting it around (for the competitin scores), while in roller, you get some credit for the "cheat."

I wonder how this will work if a jump is cheated on the take-off, rather than the landing.

Good point. The rule seems to only reflect "cheats" on the end of jumps. Not on the beginnings.....

[fsk8r]

I wonder how this will work if a jump is cheated on the take-off, rather than the landing. You see this mostly on axels (you know...the "axel" where the take-off edge hooks around so much that the skater is practically backwards before they take off, or they are thinking rotation versus driving the knee through first and wind up starting to rotate before the foot fully leaves the ice)? Those are technically "missing rotation" as far as the wording of the rule is concerned, but the way the take-off is done, it really makes it more of a salchow. An axel with a clean forward take-off that is short rotation on the landing still has the correct forward take-off of an axel.

I thought they only started counting the rotation from the point of take-off? I know in some of the cheated take-offs it can be difficult to call the actual point (and there's the bit about most jumps actually pre-rotating slightly before leaving the ice), but the really bad ones are quite obvious in the same ways as the bad landings where they 3turn out of it are equally obvious.

[Isk8NYC]

But I don't see why they skip the "cheat" method as a learning tool. After all, they don't have to actually use the jump until it is clean.....Because landing forward on a figure skating blade is more dangerous than on roller skates due to the rocker and toerake. Landing forward on a rocker can easily allow the skater to roll forward out of control and trip over the toepick. Ice figure skaters always try to fall on their butt rather than face-plant. On a roller floor, you don't have the sliding factor to consider, but on ice, it really does help eliminate serious injuries by lessening the impact.

Landing forward and threeing also develops the bad habit of landing on a flat or edge instead of the toepick-to-edge transition needed for a correct landing. While using the correct landing foot is good, most skaters benefit from trying to complete the jump.

It was really funny (to me) when skidding the axel entrance became acceptable and the norm. I was ahead of my time, I tell you - all coaches and judges back then were looking for clean outside edge/toepick takeoffs. The skid would have been a cheat. My eyes were incredibly wide when Priscilla Hill gave a PSA jump workshop and described teaching Johnny Weir how to skid. (He was working on the triple, of course, lol.) The times, they are a'changing.


Just FYI: The jumps' rotation measurement is based on your blade's position on takeoff and landing, based on the tech specialists slow-motion demos shown during the Olympics. If you were to enter an axel with a little three-turn on the entrance, the jump would be actually be a salchow (BO edge entrance) because you're only performing a single revolution in the air due to the 1/2 turn on the ice. If you sacrifice the rotation on the entry or the exit, I believe the jump will be marked as underrotated - note that the rule aussieskater posted doesn't specify landing. That's the new definition of a "cheat" - more than a 1/4 turn short, and it'll cost you under IJS.

[Skittl1321]

Good point. The rule seems to only reflect "cheats" on the end of jumps. Not on the beginnings.....

It's been explained to me by tech callers that they "add" together the cheat from the front and the back end.

GOE is probably more likely to be just off the landing, unless the cheat on the front is very obvious- because the judges don't get a replay.

[Ellyn]

I wonder how this will work if a jump is cheated on the take-off, rather than the landing. You see this mostly on axels (you know...the "axel" where the take-off edge hooks around so much that the skater is practically backwards before they take off, or they are thinking rotation versus driving the knee through first and wind up starting to rotate before the foot fully leaves the ice)? Those are technically "missing rotation" as far as the wording of the rule is concerned, but the way the take-off is done, it really makes it more of a salchow. An axel with a clean forward take-off that is short rotation on the landing still has the correct forward take-off of an axel.

When I could do axels, I often cheated the takeoff, sometimes to the point of skidding to backward still on the ice, making it more like a salchow.

I figure, if the blade is still traveling forward when it leaves the ice, and there's more than 1 full rotation, it's an axel. Whether it's downgradable depends on the calling rules at the time.

I have once seen a more advanced adult skater make the skid-to-backward error on an intended axel takeoff and have it called as a salchow.

[RachelSk8er]

Landing forward and threeing also develops the bad habit of landing on a flat or edge instead of the toepick-to-edge transition needed for a correct landing. While using the correct landing foot is good, most skaters benefit from trying to complete the jump.



Which is exactly what you do on roller skates. I almost killed myself playing around in roller skates and landing jumps until I got the hang of landing them flat-footed. That's how you can almost always pick out someone who started in roller skating on the ice, they land flat-footed and kind of thud, rather than a nice soft toe-first landing.

Just because something works with wheels on your feet, or is acceptable under the rules and coaching norms of one sport, does not mean it works or should be the same (or changed to be the same) when you trade the wheels in for steel double edged knives and a wood floor for ice.

[Isk8NYC]

Which is exactly what you do on roller skates. I almost killed myself playing around in roller skates and landing jumps until I got the hang of landing them flat-footed. That's how you can almost always pick out someone who started in roller skating on the ice, they land flat-footed and kind of thud, rather than a nice soft toe-first landing.
Normally, roller skates aren't rockered unless they're PIC or Snow White versions, right? That absolutely explains why the "land forward and three" training technique would be okay for roller but not for ice skating.

Are there half-revolution jumps in roller? One of the reasons bunny hops, side toe hops, ballet jumps, half-flip, half-lutz and Mazurkas are included in LTS programs is to teach a skater how to save themselves should they land facing forward -and- to train the skater to control a landing on the pointed foot/toepick.

When teaching an axel, one of the preparation drills is to do a one-rotation jump that takes off forward and lands forward. Some people call this a half-Axel or Bell jump. The skater lands on the toepick of one foot and immediately pushes off onto a checked edge of the opposite foot.

[RachelSk8er]

Normally, roller skates aren't rockered unless they're PIC or Snow White versions, right? That absolutely explains why the "land forward and three" training technique would be okay for roller but not for ice skating.

Are there half-revolution jumps in roller? One of the reasons bunny hops, side toe hops, ballet jumps and Mazurkas are included in both ISI WeSkate and USFSA Basic Skills programs is to teach a skater how to save themselves should they land facing forward -and- to train the skater to control a landing on the pointed foot/toepick.


Yeah, old school quad roller skates are not rockered, so you land jumps flat-footed. (You loosen the trucks so you get a side to side give to allow you to use edges, but from toe to heel they are the same).

I've personally done half flips and half lutzes on roller skates, but that's because I'm a figure skater who playing around, and I was using that to work up to getting comfortable enough to try a full rev just as we do in figure skating. I'm not sure what's actually taught to roller skaters by roller skating coaches, the only actual roller skating training I've had (other than derby which is a whole other world) is a little bit of roller dance group lessons that all the adult figure skaters at my ice rink get together and take once in a while for fun. They also do half loops to link jump sequences just like on ice (they call them Eulers), but we all know that's not a real half-rev jump, you take off and land backwards.

I always watch the artistic roller skaters when I get to roller derby early and they are practicing because I'm just fascinated by the physics of it (I don't get how spinning works). But from what I've seen, I don't think they're ever taught to land forward in building jumps. Two of them are supposedly a big deal on the national roller skating scene, and in watching the older of the two do what they call triples, particularly on edge jumps, they really swing the free leg and dip the upper body to yank themselves in the air, land after 2 revs, and the 3rd rev is almost entirely done on the floor. (It would make most figure skating coaches cringe, but in roller skating, I guess it works because her coach always tells her what a nice triple she did). And all their more difficult jumps are always done in sequences or combinations because they can't control the landing and hold it, they have to pop right up into another easier jump to gain control. If they're taught to be yanking themselves like that, I don't see how they could control a jump enough to land forward and stay that way when learning a multi revolution jump like your axel/bell jump example, or the 1.5 revs/land forward that a lot of people start to build doubles off of. They have to cheat and spin on the floor when they land. Even the younger ones learning singles never seem to be working on half jumps, they land after half a rev and spin on the floor. Now, that could be the norm, or it could just be this particular group of coaches and the way they teach things, I don't know.

This would explain why the roller coach (after seeing my friend and I doing singles just goofing off in roller derby skates, which aren't even the right boots/trucks/wheels/toe stops for artistic) keeps telling us that we need to compete in roller skating because he'd easily be able to teach us to land doubles.

[Pandora]

This would explain why the roller coach (after seeing my friend and I doing singles just goofing off in roller derby skates, which aren't even the right boots/trucks/wheels/toe stops for artistic) keeps telling us that we need to compete in roller skating because he'd easily be able to teach us to land doubles

(Laughing). Poor roller coach. He would love to "steal" ice figure skaters and "turn them" to "our side." :lol:

Artistic roller is dying here in the US... :cry:
You are lucky to live in an area that even has any clubs left. I would love to go back to roller (where my technique is "correct" and there are no tests), but there are simply no rinks with clubs or practice time in my area and I cannot afford to move .. :cry:

Yeah, old school quad roller skates are not rockered, so you land jumps flat-footed.

Yup, this is how I land everything. It works on ice....to a point. Not calling it "good technique" on ice....But it will work.... Someone landing like this (espeically with a high wrap leg) can actually manage to "cheat" jump landings becuase it is much easier to do than with "correct ice technique" (legs crossed at ankles with pointed toes)....

Not saying the 1/2 turn cheat is the "correct" way to add rotation on ice.....But since it works with the flat landings, I find it easier than falling (hard) trying to go for the whole thing. It is a less painful way of finding the axis....for me, anyways....and I am old. Bubble wrap or not, those falls kind of hurt... ;)

Are there half-revolution jumps in roller? One of the reasons bunny hops, side toe hops, ballet jumps, half-flip, half-lutz and Mazurkas are included in LTS programs is to teach a skater how to save themselves should they land facing forward -and- to train the skater to control a landing on the pointed foot/toepick.

Yes, roller skaters do have these jumps. :D ...But the landing on these jumps is different than the "cheat" landing I was referring to in that on these jumps the skater lands on the toe pick (on ice) or the toe stop (on roller) and then pushes onto the other skate......The 1/2 cheats I am talking about are a landed on the IF edge of the landing foot and then a IF-OB 3 turn to complete the rotation.

[kayskate]

Just to clarify. When I was learning axel and doubles, my coach wanted me to land in a backspin and pivot out whether or not I was forward, backward or somewhere in b/w. This would keep me in proper position for a correct landing when I could complete the rotation in the air. I usually landed flat and did a 3turn. I do not know if this is b/c I did a lot of roller skating as a kid. From what I am reading here, it makes sense to me now. However, I never had this prob w single jumps that were easy for me to complete.

On rollers, it would be nearly impossible to land toe first b/c the skater would fall forward on her face or catch the toe stop. A good roller jump, as I understand, lands "flat back", truly backwards on all 4 wheels. There is no cheat at all and absolutely no rotation on the floor, not even 1/4 or less. From what I have seen, a roller skater who can land a fully rotated, clean triple (or double) is completing more rotation in the air than a comparable jump on ice.

For ex, here is roller skater landing a flat back axel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQA6Gzi81cQ
She starts dead straight and lands completely backwards.
Here is a roller skating champion landing 3axels and 3loops:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoXNGhtSqNI&feature=related
He has more "edge" into the jumps than the previous young skater.

Kay

[Pandora]

On rollers, it would be nearly impossible to land toe first b/c the skater would fall forward on her face or catch the toe stop. A good roller jump, as I understand, lands "flat back", truly backwards on all 4 wheels. There is no cheat at all and absolutely no rotation on the floor, not even 1/4 or less. From what I have seen, a roller skater who can land a fully rotated, clean triple (or double) is completing more rotation in the air than a comparable jump on ice.


Yes, we used to dis the ice skaters (friendly way) by claiming they always "cheat" at the beginning because they need to "turn into" or "hook" their jumps. ;) In the "old days" roller never did this. It was completely flat to flat: All rotation in the air....

However...

With the "new standards" now, they are alllowing for some "toe rotation" like ice does up into the jump. (Of course, roller really doesn't need this since there is no pick to catch....But it does make the jump easier to do which is why I think they are allowing it.) And, yes, in the worst cases, like RachelSk8er noted the jump spins on the floor going up and cheats at the landing so a supposed "triple" is really a double cheated 1/2 going in and 1/2 comming out.....Of course this is only in the worst cases. But it's still not good.....:cry: Not all rollers cheat, though. World Class like Jayson Suttcliffe don't. Most world class men don't (at least in quad. Inline is much harder for them.) Some world class women do, because it is so much harder due to weight of the skates and other issues (blade vs wheels, lack of speed, etc.)

When I was learning axel and doubles, my coach wanted me to land in a backspin and pivot out whether or not I was forward, backward or somewhere in b/w. This would keep me in proper position for a correct landing when I could complete the rotation in the air. I usually landed flat and did a 3turn.

Yes, this is what I am doing. Usually I three turn, sometimes I get lucky and the tracing is less (usually 1 quarter). I do like that about ice.....You can "save" a landing less than 1/2 short. On roller, the wheels don't slide sideways. If you are less than 1/2 short (forward landing), the skate will slip out sideways and there is a nasty fall.....I called it "hip slam." :(

On rollers, it would be nearly impossible to land toe first b/c the skater would fall forward on her face or catch the toe stop.

So true. If we were lucky we would just kind of bounce around on the toe stop and save ourselves by tripping out with a sloppy mohawk.....IF we were lucky...;)

[Sessy]

So true. If we were lucky we would just kind of bounce around on the toe stop and save ourselves by tripping out with a sloppy mohawk.....IF we were lucky...;)

What of landing with the weight on the heel and 3-turn out? Only works if you know you're gonna underrotate, and maybe it only works on snowwhites lol?

[Sessy]

Normally, roller skates aren't rockered unless they're PIC or Snow White versions, right? That absolutely explains why the "land forward and three" training technique would be okay for roller but not for ice skating.

Actually, when I started learning the axel (before the injury that took me out from jumping for years - injury was spin-toepick-catch-related btw) I was told to just land it forward and 3-turn out, land on my landing foot if I could (and I could). Then the precious few times when I actually had more than 1-and-a-bit revolution I had a problem cuz I'd land backward on the back of my blade and go boink boink on my butt from there (cuz landing backwards really does require weight more forwards on the blade). But it does work for learning, I was landing it forwards and 3-ing out all the time for a bit there. Maybe it's just me, I think I naturally land too heavily and flat-footed (maybe I shouldn't use rollers so much lol!) Totally need to work ont hat.

Another thing coaches suggested was landing on the toe and then bouncing right back up to complete the half rev in the air on a new jump of sorts.

What Isk8NYC suggests, I've not seen done around here (which is not to say it never is, just that I haven't seen it).

[Pandora]

What of landing with the weight on the heel and 3-turn out? Only works if you know you're gonna underrotate, and maybe it only works on snowwhites lol?

Oh yes, definitely, that is the idea (landing flat back or 3 turning out). A roller toe landing, (other than on forward landing jumps like ballet, mazurka, split etc where the skater steps onto the other foot), is always a mistake resulting from a forward lean or break in the waist.....Like you said, rollers land flat......Or, at least, we try to.... ;) That is why rollers can do long combinations (5-9 jumps in a row), because the landing edge doesn't curl like it does on the toe-edge landing. (This is probably why ice limits combination lengths.)

Another thing coaches suggested was landing on the toe and then bouncing right back up to complete the half rev in the air on a new jump of sorts.

Yes, I read that for 2axel a good prep is axel-2loop so I have been doing these. I like the combo (for my test program), but I don't really think it's helping all that much.... The axis is different for the single and the double... This doesn't help with finding the axis...

I was told to just land it forward and 3-turn out, land on my landing foot if I could (and I could).
See, now that is what I'm talking about. It seems that with the younger skaters or the skaters just beginning doulbes the coaches are OK with the "cheat" method....But from what I hear the skaters learning triples are encouraged to go for the whole thing. (Of course these are "better" skaters, usually in their mid-late teens/early 20s).

[Skittl1321]

That is why rollers can do long combinations (5-9 jumps in a row), because the landing edge doesn't curl like it does on the toe-edge landing. (This is probably why ice limits combination lengths.)



I think ice could do long combinations, the rules just don't allow it. But I've seen skaters do 15+ loops in a row. Loop contests seem to be the norm on game days. Maybe the force of a triple that wouldn't be possible, I don't know.

[RachelSk8er]

I think ice could do long combinations, the rules just don't allow it. But I've seen skaters do 15+ loops in a row. Loop contests seem to be the norm on game days. Maybe the force of a triple that wouldn't be possible, I don't know.

Yeah, if you can control your landings, you can keep jumping on ice. You just have to think of keeping the hip on your free side forward and not let it pull back (which usually results in your left shoulder following...which is also how a lot of people end up toe waltzing, too). A lot of coaches will have skaters do loops until they can't do them any more to work on keeping up speed/power between jumps in combinations and proper position of the free hip.

[Pandora]

I think ice could do long combinations, the rules just don't allow it.
I wonder why not??? I guess they are afraid the programs will just deteriorate into a bunch of long combos trying to rack up points... Wish they'd allow at least one 5 or 7 jump combo, (maybe with singles to link the jumps like on roller.) They are fun to watch. ;)

[kayskate]

I actually encourage my students to do long series of jumps to improve control and flow usually waltz jumps or toe loops. I also like skaters to do long combos/series of various jumps so they have to think about what they are doing b/w jumps. i also find that when skaters do long series they become less inhibited. The waltz jumps in the middle and toward the end of a long series are commonly the best ones. They learn to control the landing and jump w/o over thinking. Ideally, a series of waltz jumps should build speed. I often see this happening w my students.

I have also watched skaters learning doubles do a series of jumps before the double. This seems to work well w loops. When I was training axel, I did 2+ waltz jumps then the axel. Results were pretty good.

Kay

[rlichtefeld]

I wonder why not??? I guess they are afraid the programs will just deteriorate into a bunch of long combos trying to rack up points... Wish they'd allow at least one 5 or 7 jump combo, (maybe with singles to link the jumps like on roller.) They are fun to watch. ;)

Part of the reason is the Zayak rule. That is you can't repeat a jump, except in combination, and then only once. If you did a 7 jump combo, you would use use a great number of your possible jumps in one combo.

The other reason is that figure skating isn't all about the jumps - otherwise they'd call it something like ice jumping. A good program is built of a series of jump passes, spin elements, spiral sequences, step sequences, and connecting steps. And, in pairs there are lifts, death spirals, combo spins, pairs spins, and sbs jumps.

Figure skating started as a competition of people doing compulsory figures - hence the name. Much later came freeskating, but you only got to compete that event if you were tops in the compulsory figures.

After TV came about and the powers that be decided that TV audiences didn't want to watch compulsory figures, the ISU removed them and added a short program.

However, the roots and beauty of the sport are the skating aspects. This is part of the reason why USFS is adding some of the old compulsory figure elements back into the Moves in the Field tests starting Sept 1.

Unfortunately, the ISU has now also messed with Ice Dancing, and will remove the compulsory dances and replace them with a short dance. And, don't even get me started on the Mixed Team event! I mean lets add an Olympic event that no one is competing currently and not add Synchro - grrrr.

I have met Ottavia Cinquanta, and he seems like a nice man. However, his background is speed skating, and his ideas of what should be involved in figure skating and judging is ruining a sport that has been an Olympic event for over 100 years.

Rob

[RachelSk8er]

Part of the reason is the Zayak rule. That is you can't repeat a jump, except in combination, and then only once. If you did a 7 jump combo, you would use use a great number of your possible jumps in one combo.

The other reason is that figure skating isn't all about the jumps - otherwise they'd call it something like ice jumping. A good program is built of a series of jump passes, spin elements, spiral sequences, step sequences, and connecting steps. And, in pairs there are lifts, death spirals, combo spins, pairs spins, and sbs jumps.

Figure skating started as a competition of people doing compulsory figures - hence the name. Much later came freeskating, but you only got to compete that event if you were tops in the compulsory figures.



You actually used to see people doing longer combos back in the day when top skaters were only doing maybe a doulbe or two at the most and we didn't have those rules in place because you didn't really need them. If you pull up videos of Carol Heiss, she would do 4 axels in alternating directions one after the other. And she had at least two other axels in that same program. But figure skating evolved beyond that to where we expect skaters to demonstrate more variety in their jumping ability.

[Pandora]

I have also watched skaters learning doubles do a series of jumps before the double. This seems to work well w loops. When I was training axel, I did 2+ waltz jumps then the axel. Results were pretty good.

I know what you mean. Roller usually uses a traveling 3 or waltz jump enterence into a loop jump. It is odd to see one done flat back off an edge (like ice). I noticed that it is much, much easier for me to do the loop off a combo. (Probably masking some sort of error on takeoff.....But it works.) ;)

The other reason is that figure skating isn't all about the jumps - otherwise they'd call it something like ice jumping. A good program is built of a series of jump passes, spin elements, spiral sequences, step sequences, and connecting steps. And, in pairs there are lifts, death spirals, combo spins, pairs spins, and sbs jumps.

Yes, as much as I'd like to see a "jump event" added, that should be an entirely seperate event. As you said in "figure skating" there should be a balance....I do think, however, that there are too many rules on the long program in ice....The short program should have all the "rules" while the long program should allow skaters to showcase their tallents to a greater degree than it does now. (The "freeskate" is no longer free. :()Maybe a good spinner would like to add another level 4 spin while a good jumper would like to get credit for another jump combo... Some rules are good. (Zayak rule rule for example. Can't keep getting credit for the triple toe loop over and over and over :roll:)....But it would be nice to open things up a little bit....Right now the long programs are all so "cookie cutter," know what I mean?

[kayskate]

What is the mixed team event?

Kay

[Skittl1321]

What is the mixed team event?

Kay

There was a team trophy "fluff" event last year- and I think the ISU has added it as an official championship, with possibility of adding it to many competitions later.

There were 2 male singles, 2 female singles (one each competing short and long), and then a pair and a dance team (IIRC. The scores were added together to find the winning country.

Like an "all-around" event. But only a few countries are strong enough in all the disciplines to even have a chance to play.

[vesperholly]

And, don't even get me started on the Mixed Team event! I mean lets add an Olympic event that no one is competing currently and not add Synchro - grrrr.

Great post, Rob. I would love love LOVE for synchro to be in the Olympics, but I don't hold much hope because it means so many more athletes to accommodate. :(

[RachelSk8er]

Great post, Rob. I would love love LOVE for synchro to be in the Olympics, but I don't hold much hope because it means so many more athletes to accommodate. :(

Yeah, logistically it's not going to happen without more drastic changes to the sport. And any current/former synchro skater, coach, judge or general enthusiast will tell you that they would rather see it stay out than to see the sport we know totally discombobulated into something else that doesn't even resemble synchro just so that the Olympic committee would approve.

There was a team trophy "fluff" event last year- and I think the ISU has added it as an official championship, with possibility of adding it to many competitions later.

There were 2 male singles, 2 female singles (one each competing short and long), and then a pair and a dance team (IIRC. The scores were added together to find the winning country.

Like an "all-around" event. But only a few countries are strong enough in all the disciplines to even have a chance to play.

So basically what's been going on (sort of) with high school and collegiate competitions for about 10 yrs in the US now (maybe even longer, but it's grown over the last 10), but on a more official level.

Do they compete again/seprately for this event against only other countries entering skaters in the event, or are the scores from the regular events just added to determine the winning country?

[Skittl1321]

Do they compete again/seprately for this event against only other countries entering skaters in the event, or are the scores from the regular events just added to determine the winning country?

I think right now Team Trophy is just a seperate event, so they compete seperately only for the event. (I can't find an official write up of the ISU Congress. This link: http://www.iceskating.org.uk/files/CONGRESS%20DECISIONS%202.doc has some summary. You might be interested that they tried to remove men from synchro- but the motion failed.)

[RachelSk8er]

I think right now Team Trophy is just a seperate event, so they compete seperately only for the event. (I can't find an official write up of the ISU Congress. This link: http://www.iceskating.org.uk/files/CONGRESS%20DECISIONS%202.doc has some summary. You might be interested that they tried to remove men from synchro- but the motion failed.)

Yeah removing men will never fly, some of the countries struggling to get teams together need that option in order to get enough skaters to have a team at worlds and there is no evidence whatsoever that teams with men have any sort of advantage over all-female teams. It comes up every few years, closest they have gotten is capping it at 4. Once upon a time, there was a Russian team called Dream Team that was 12 men/12 women (back when senior was 24 skaters), it was pretty cool to watch, they were a decent team, but not one of the top teams in the world or anything like that. Team Berlin had 5 the year they placed 5th at worlds (in 05), but the program would have been just as good with 20 female skaters.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Here's some info on the Team Trophy event:
http://www.isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1872