Adult skating - steady vs. haste

[toepix]

Hi guys,

I've seen several threads on the demerits of coaches rushing kids through basics in favour of more glitzy jumps and spins. However, what are your thoughts on this in an adult context - people who aren't necessarily going to build triples on the foundation and have the comprehension to think about what they are doing?

I would like to - and have been told that there is no reason I shouldn't be able to - land doubles eventually. It's not that I don't enjoy footwork - I really do! - but nothing seems to be as limited as jumps by age.

I notice that some of the other adult skaters/their coaches seem to be rushing through the elements. There's a girl who started around when I did and, without wanting to sound mean, she can do quite a few elements technically but they are not pretty. She is starting on flip but her waltz jumps have little distance or height, for example. Her edges, extension and power are not great, but enough to see her through. But her coach's philosophy seems to be to do it all, then come back and tidy up.

I guess I'm a little bit concerned. My coach is exceptionally precise (dancer!), which I appreciate, and I realise that having rock solid MITF and singles is a great starting point - on the other hand, I'm not getting younger and one can improve edges, positions and power at any age?

Thoughts? Am I being too paranoid?

[techskater]

Those adults you see rushing though elements are typically not going to do well with those elements because they have poor basics. Many people get their Axel in their 30s and 40s as long as their basics are SOLID. They take a different path to Axels and doubles but it's equivalent (typically in time) to the adult who rushes to work on these elements and the one with solid basics typically has a better difficult element than one who rushes to work on it. Dis-Axel anyone?

[miraclegro]

How long have you been skating, i mean when did you start?

All of the jumps and spins are based on GOOD fundamentals....pay now or pay later is what i say. I get taken right back to the basics when i am trying something difficult, even the axel. And also, nothing is uglier than a program with sloppy connecting moves. Perhaps you can talk to your coach about this, and see if you may wish to have an edge coach and a jump coach and see what he/she says.

[Sessy]

My 3-turns improved further with the sal and toe-loop practice and I heavily suspect my group class coaches of having given me more difficult footwork to do on occasion only to clean up my more basic stuff more quickly after just practicing it was clearly not helping at all, and yeah it worked. So pushing it certainly helped me on occasion. I've seen ppl try to learn waltz jumps without having a comprehension of the edges though, that's pushing it too far I think.

[blue111moon]

I've seen a lot of adults rush through the basics, picking them up quickly whether through natural talent or impatience, to get to "the fun stuff" of jumps and spins, and then eventually get stuck on something because their basics aren't sound. They get frustrated with the sudden lack of progress, resist "going back" to work on basics and eventually quit.

Whereas the ones who plug doggedly on the basics, keep working edges and turns and stroking along with "the fun stuff" stick around a lot longer and in the end have more fun with skating.

[RachelSk8er]

Think about what makes up a program. What do you spend the majority of the time dedicated to--jumping and spinning, or connecting steps? No one is going to care that you have a nice loop jump and a nice scratch spin if what you do getting from one to the next is not just as pleasant to watch.

There are 2 male adult skaters in my area (both have yet to compete). One just turned 18, the other is 25. I've seen the 18 year old, who has only been skating for a year, land axels, double toes, and double sals, but he can hardly do a 3-turn and it's really hard to watch him do his program because his basic skating skills aren't good at all. And neither are his jumps really--he just flings himself into the air and lands on one foot. And he has combination spins, but like everything else, they're a big sloppy mess. I never see his coach working on him with moves or just basic skating. The 25 year old, on the other hand, has been skating for a few years. He spends hours and hours (probably 60% or more of his time on the ice) on stroking, turns and basic skating skills. He may not have doubles, but he's much more pleasing to watch because his basic skills are strong for his level (he's on bronze, could pass his silver). In the long run, he'll be a lot better off. He'll get his doubles eventually, and probably be able to keep them because he's taken so much time to focus on technique and basic skills. And he'll probably suffer a lot less injuries because he's taking time to learn and not flinging himself into the air. (Along those lines, we have another guy at my rink who used to fling himself in the air like that and after constantly hurting himself and not seeing improvement and not doing as well as he'd like in competitions, he finally realized it's time to go back and start at the beginning and learn better technique.)

[GoSveta]

My 3-turns improved further with the sal and toe-loop practice and I heavily suspect my group class coaches of having given me more difficult footwork to do on occasion only to clean up my more basic stuff more quickly after just practicing it was clearly not helping at all, and yeah it worked. So pushing it certainly helped me on occasion. I've seen ppl try to learn waltz jumps without having a comprehension of the edges though, that's pushing it too far I think.

Waltz Jumps aren't hard. It's just a step up from a bunny hop.

The edges isn't my worry - IRT waltz Jumps, it's the fact that most of the skaters I see doing them have no concept of weight transfer and their landing positions are horrible.

And there isn't anything that makes me cringe more than skaters who abuse the toepicks on jump landings, and terrible landing positions.

There is one girl here with big jumps, but her posture and landing positions are horrible. Sometimes I want to remind her why Surya Bonaly never won Worlds...

[Skittl1321]

Waltz Jumps aren't hard. It's just a step up from a bunny hop.


I think waltz jumps are way easier than bunny hops. My experience with beginning adults is most are terrified of bunny hops, but will give a try with waltz jumps- so I know it's not just me.


And there isn't anything that makes me cringe more than skaters who abuse the toepicks on jump landings, and terrible landing positions.


What do you mean? They drag their toe pick in the landing position? That has nothing to do with the jump- but with poor backward edges.

I can't land my jumps on my toe pick to save my life. They all thud down on the flat.

[GoSveta]

Think about what makes up a program. What do you spend the majority of the time dedicated to--jumping and spinning, or connecting steps? No one is going to care that you have a nice loop jump and a nice scratch spin if what you do getting from one to the next is not just as pleasant to watch.

There are 2 male adult skaters in my area (both have yet to compete). One just turned 18, the other is 25. I've seen the 18 year old, who has only been skating for a year, land axels, double toes, and double sals, but he can hardly do a 3-turn and it's really hard to watch him do his program because his basic skating skills aren't good at all. And neither are his jumps really--he just flings himself into the air and lands on one foot. And he has combination spins, but like everything else, they're a big sloppy mess. I never see his coach working on him with moves or just basic skating. The 25 year old, on the other hand, has been skating for a few years. He spends hours and hours (probably 60% or more of his time on the ice) on stroking, turns and basic skating skills. He may not have doubles, but he's much more pleasing to watch because his basic skills are strong for his level (he's on bronze, could pass his silver). In the long run, he'll be a lot better off. He'll get his doubles eventually, and probably be able to keep them because he's taken so much time to focus on technique and basic skills. And he'll probably suffer a lot less injuries because he's taking time to learn and not flinging himself into the air. (Along those lines, we have another guy at my rink who used to fling himself in the air like that and after constantly hurting himself and not seeing improvement and not doing as well as he'd like in competitions, he finally realized it's time to go back and start at the beginning and learn better technique.)

Well... I guess it depends on the person. I landed Toe Loop, Flip, and Lutz in Basic 4. I did lots of off-ice jumps (up to Doubles + Double Axel), so they were easy.

Good jumpers can improve their basics, but there are skaters who have excellent basics who will probably never be able to land the types of jumps he's landing.

You don't just fling yourself into the air on double jumps and manage to land them, as a relative beginner. Without at least decent technique, they will fail - often - and those types of falls are enough to let the student know they shouldn't be attempting the element.

If he's landing them consistently and his technique is acceptable, I see no reason why anyone should stop him from practicing them.

EDIT: Also, how can someone "hardly do a 3 turn," but do double toe loops (one 3-turn, unless mohawk entrance) and double salchows (basically two 3-turns, unless he enters from mohawk).

[GoSveta]

I think waltz jumps are way easier than bunny hops. My experience with beginning adults is most are terrified of bunny hops, but will give a try with waltz jumps- so I know it's not just me.
I agree. I haven't done a bunny hop since I had to do them like 3 times in L2Sk8 :P I find Waltz harder than a flip, personally. I can't stand that forward outside edge takeoff, and since I'm so used to doing Axels off-ice, I have to work too hard to eek out only half a rotation. It's really hard fighting muscle memory.

What do you mean? They drag their toe pick in the landing position? That has nothing to do with the jump- but with poor backward edges.
I mean some skaters land on the toe pick (en point, as if they were in ballet) and spin around to finish the rotation, then drop down to the flat and glide out. It's not that evident on singles, but when they are doing doubles it's very evident. I've seen a skater do like half a rotation on the ice on the toe-pick on a double toe loop, drop down, do another 1.5 toe loop, come down on the toe pick for half a rotation, drop down and glide out.

The coach said "good job" and I almost cried. She never mentioned the URs/cheats, or the bent-legged landing position.

I can't land my jumps on my toe pick to save my life. They all thud down on the flat.
I tend to land a bit flat most times as well, but my coach says that can lead to knee/back issues because you're taking way too much brute force on the landing.

I personally don't like the feeling of landing on the edge of my toepick (not on the whole toepick, just on like the bottom pick somewhat), and it makes me check extremely hard when I don't have to - causing me to dip forward. I don't like it.

If I land my jumps the way I usually do, the landings are great. Can hold them for about 2 big circles :P

[techskater]

You don't just fling yourself into the air on double jumps and manage to land them, as a relative beginner. Without at least decent technique, they will fail - often - and those types of falls are enough to let the student know they shouldn't be attempting the element.

If he's landing them consistently and his technique is acceptable, I see no reason why anyone should stop him from practicing them.

EDIT: Also, how can someone "hardly do a 3 turn," but do double toe loops (one 3-turn, unless mohawk entrance) and double salchows (basically two 3-turns, unless he enters from mohawk).

I skate elsewhere from Rachel and know EXACTLY what she's getting at for this. The three turn is unchecked and the skater basically flings into the air in any ol' position and somehow manages to land the jump (consistently). It looks terrible and will eventually lead to injury!

[GoSveta]

I skate elsewhere from Rachel and know EXACTLY what she's getting at for this. The three turn is unchecked and the skater basically flings into the air in any ol' position and somehow manages to land the jump (consistently). It looks terrible and will eventually lead to injury!

It's not hard to check a 3 turn, so I'd have to see it to make a better judgement. If his basics are so terrible that he can't do a 3-turn properly, then I'm starting to think some unintentional overstating is at play here :D

If you can't check a 3-turn, I doubt you can land (or rather, do) a double salchow consistently. Off-ice training can fix air position.

[dreamnmusic]

I've only been skating for a few months so take this as you will. lol But I know personally I tend to learn things quickly, at least the basics, but it takes me a while to polish them. That takes time. Its been my experience that no matter how quickly you learn something, you still need time to get used to what-ever the thing is and to polish it. I enjoy watching other skaters on the ice, kids up through adults. You can tell quickly how far along someone is in their training and how new they are. When I watch people skate around they automatically do things like crossovers without even thinking about it. Now, speaking for myself, my crossovers are very nice. However I have to think about them when I'm doing them. I have to think about stroking to. And its not because I can't do it, I'm just new. That... polish takes time.

So... Adding new things while a skater gets used to moves seems okay. If I waited until I could do forward and backwards crossovers without thinking about it before adding new things I'd get bored quickly. I like to be challenged so I need new things to work on periodically.

I should think if a skater at least knows how to do the move then moving on is alright. Doesn't mean the skater can stop practicing the move though :D Honestly I can already tell you how I'll respond when I'll need to string several things together. I won't do it right for a while. For me its two different concepts. I think its a bit like knowing how to add, subtract, multiply and divide then learning about the order of operations. At first you're all over the place and adding where you should be multiplying and subtracting where you should be adding. Good stuff. lol.

[RachelSk8er]

I skate elsewhere from Rachel and know EXACTLY what she's getting at for this. The three turn is unchecked and the skater basically flings into the air in any ol' position and somehow manages to land the jump (consistently). It looks terrible and will eventually lead to injury!

That's exactly what this kid does. It's not a properly checked 3 turn, it's like some sort of helicopter flinging about that starts off forward and winds up backward. He lands them pretty consistently too, I have no clue how, because he's a hot mess taking off, all over the place in the air, and his landing position isn't all that great, either. (And seeing crap like that makes me bang my head against the wall wondering why the heck my stupid axel isn't clean.) He's probably more than 1/4 short so they probably would not get called under IJS, and at least not without major negative GOEs. Sooner or later he's going to hurt himself. I think he gets away with it because he's young (just turned 18) and pretty fearless, has long legs so he can fling himself up easily, and right now he wants to jump jump jump and not work on anything else. Perhaps once he starts testing and competing he'll realize he can't get away with that. Right now he wouldn't be able to pass anything higher than prelim or adult bronze moves or free test based on his skating skills and other technique issues (his camel spin wouldn't pass silver free or the camel/sit on pre-juv, his lutz def would not fly on a pre-juv free test). I have seen him working on prelim moves lately though.

It does seem like guys can get away with the awful jump technique much more so than women. I don't know if it's because they're less cautious, or have more power to get themselves up in the air, or what. But the trade-off is that they seem to have a harder time learning to spin.

It's not hard to check a 3 turn, so I'd have to see it to make a better judgement. If his basics are so terrible that he can't do a 3-turn properly, then I'm starting to think some unintentional overstating is at play here


Checking a 3 turn actually can be something that's hard for a new or low level skater to get. I see skaters working on the consecutive 3s on prelim moves and struggling with that all the time. That doesn't mean that those same kids can't do salchows.

I may not wear my glasses when I skate, but I'm not so blind that I can't see someone skating with really crappy technique trying things they probably should not be.

[GoSveta]

Guys are generally (only generally) more powerful than females, so it's easier for them to get enough high to be able to rotate and land jumps.

The spins issue has a little to do with biology as well. Females are generally (again, only generally) more flexible in the hip and back area then men are, and they're also generally lighter, so it's easier for them to get in positions like a sit spin, because they don't have to hold as much weight up. They have less bulky muscles as well (generally!).

The girls my height at the rink (I'm rather short, 5'4") are about average 40 pounds lighter than I am, and I'm in very decent shape. This also makes them a bit less injury prone. Falls aren't as aggressive, for example. (All Skaters can suffer overuse injuries despite body type/weight/etc. however.)

Muscle memory also tends to be harder to overcome :<

[Pandora]

Reading the responses on this thread reminds me of Aesop's fable "The Fox and the Grapes". I mean, if you are so convinced that "technique counts" and that everything needs to be "by the book" and perfect, then be happy that YOU are working towards that goal, but don't put the rest of us down who disagree with you. :( I still say I'd rather have a sloppy triple than a perfect single....But that is just my opinion, and I don't put you down for working on that single.....

And as dreamnmusic rightly points out, all items start out "sloppy." It takes time to refine them. What you think is "rushing" maybe not really be rushing at all. I think skaters (adult or not) naturally gravitate towards their strengths, don't you?

I think adult skaters tend to be perfectionists and they are generally just a little too concerned about doing things "perfectly" instead of going for higher level items. This tends to hamper them in the end and limit their potiential. That is the other side of the coin.

[Sessy]

The coach said "good job" and I almost cried. She never mentioned the URs/cheats, or the bent-legged landing position.



Perhaps the skater was intended to cheat the jump in order to get over the fear of jumping or to get the rotational position right. Girls at my rink do axel-backspin all the time to get to their double axel eventually.

Waltz Jumps aren't hard. It's just a step up from a bunny hop.
The edges isn't my worry - IRT waltz Jumps, it's the fact that most of the skaters I see doing them have no concept of weight transfer and their landing positions are horrible.

Taking off waltz jumps off a flat is bad because it forces a skater to do some very weird things to get in the air. Also, I was under the impression weight transfer awareness is not expected until one starts learning the loop and flip? *shrug* at my rink it's not expected anyway.

[RachelSk8er]

Reading the responses on this thread reminds me of Aesop's fable "The Fox and the Grapes". I mean, if you are so convinced that "technique counts" and that everything needs to be "by the book" and perfect, then be happy that YOU are working towards that goal, but don't put the rest of us down who disagree with you. :( I still say I'd rather have a sloppy triple than a perfect single....But that is just my opinion, and I don't put you down for working on that single.....


Yes! Let's beat a dead horse!!!

What the heck is the point in doing a lousy double in competition and getting negative GOEs for it and therefore it not being worth as much as a solid, clean, strong single that gets you positive GOEs? Unless you don't give a crap about how you place. Or who is going to want to watch you do harder jumps when the in-between skating, which is the majority of the time in a program, isn't up to par? (And the low PCS marks that will come as a result won't help placement either.)

Wait, haven't we had this conversation on here 7,000 times already?

[TreSk8sAZ]

I think adult skaters tend to be perfectionists and they are generally just a little too concerned about doing things "perfectly" instead of going for higher level items. This tends to hamper them in the end and limit their potiential. That is the other side of the coin.

I think there is a difference between trying to do things correctly (therefore minimizing risk of injury and maximizing potential in competitions and testing) and doing things "perfectly" (which is unattainable). No one is saying that things have to be done perfectly. However, there are proper ways to do things in the skating world that when one is competing and testing must be taken into consideration. Just landing a jump on one foot isn't enough in competition to do well.

Yes, if you don't want to pass tests or compete at a high level, it is possible to do things incorrectly but do more of them (a sloppy triple may be possible). However, by doing things sloppily or incorrectly, you may not actually be doing the elements you think you are because they are incorrect. And certainly you wouldn't be able to pass higher level testing or do well in competitions. But, that's not your focus, so you probably could get what you want eventually.

As in many things, there is a "correct" way and an "incorrect" way. Similar to math. There is one correct answer and one "proper" way of getting to it. Though you can fudge and do it a different way, and come up with the same answer, it won't be as consistently correct as doing it the "proper" way.

Anyway, to OP: I've definitely seen people who have no clue on the basics throw themselves around. The falls they take are spectacularly scary, even on things like spins and footwork, and they generally burn out faster because they get frustrated when they hit a certain point they just can't get beyond.

[Pandora]

Why does it bother you so much, then? And I see you like to come down on the skaters who jump with "bad" technique without hearing from the other side. How nice of you. Well, I let it go for a while, but if you are going to attack my "side" I will speak up. So sorry.

And....

If what you say is true, then you win, right? So what is your "problem" with the adults that rush? Or have bad technique? After all, you're winning, right? Why do you have to put them down and insult their skating? I mean, what should it matter to YOU? Sour grapes, much? ;)

You might not like me, personally. That's fine. Don't care. But my comment was the truth. The adults I have met are far too concerned about perfection and it holds them back. Period. At the end of the day something can be said for actually doing the item (even with "bad" technique.)

And as for the dead horse....I didn't dig it up....The forum did.... But it's MY horse so naturally I feel a bit of a symapthy for the poor dead thing.... May bring roses....Possibly a wreath....

[Pandora]

As in many things, there is a "correct" way and an "incorrect" way. Similar to math. There is one correct answer and one "proper" way of getting to it. Though you can fudge and do it a different way, and come up with the same answer, it won't be as consistently correct as doing it the "proper" way.


So how far "off" does something have to be to be incorrect? This is not math. What if the "correct" skater has a bad day and the "incorrect" one stands up? How "bad" is a leg wrap (Nakano)? And there are elites with "toe axels" etc. I guess if your goal is perfection....But that is relative....

Don't understand what you mean by injury. I have fallen on concrete, ice, and wood for over half of my life. Never got a bad injury. A few bangs and scrapes, but nothing bad. I've seen adults with "good" skating skills (MITF) fall on dance steps and break bones......I think a little bubblewrap would fix this injury thing. ;)

And, come on, let's be honest here. Don't you think there are just a few sour grapes in this bunch? Just a few....;)

I guess what I'm saying (to everyone who is writing to put down skaters with more advanced moves and "bad" technique), is that while we apprecite your desire to help us overcome our flaws by so very nicely pointing them out. I don't see why it should bother you since you are advancing at a slower rate but with the wonderful, correct technique that you so espouse. As several of you have pointed out, you will be rewarded by the judges for this, and the other skaters (my side, so to speak) will be hammered by the judges. OK. So let it be. Why the "issues" with skaters who you consider to have higher level elements with "bad" technique? Why insult us? It does sound a lot like sour grapes. Sorry. But it does....Frankly, it sounds like someone who doesn't have the physical strength or "intestinal fortitude" to attempt a higher level item putting down those of us who do. Sure sounds like this to me, anyhow. Let the other readers make up their own minds.

[MusicSkateFan]

:bow::bow::bow::bow::bow:

Wow "Bitter, party of two? Bitter, Party of two, your table is ready!"

Juicy comments and I did not even chime in with my usual jabs!

:yum::yum::yum::yum::yum:

[Pandora]

Oh, don't worry, I'm sure this thread will be locked soon. :roll: ....But I'd rather see it locked than have them continue to hammer me (and adults like me.) It is annoying to have someone who cannot even land an axel put down someone who can land doubles. Know what I mean? And they think they are "better" than the skaters who can land the doubles because their singles have "good technique." Give me a break! I mean this might make them feel better about themselves, and maybe their coach will agree with them in theory and to continue getting their lesson $, but in reality this just doesn't fly......And it is insulting to those of us who CAN land doubles (even sloppy ones)!!!

[GoSveta]

Perhaps the skater was intended to cheat the jump in order to get over the fear of jumping or to get the rotational position right. Girls at my rink do axel-backspin all the time to get to their double axel eventually.
That would make sense if she didn't have all her doubles and wasn't working on double axel, double double combinations, etc.

If the coach uses video analysis, he or she can know if a skater is even capable of a double axel (air time, etc.), without wasting time training an element the skater is not yet capable of landing consistently.

Taking off waltz jumps off a flat is bad because it forces a skater to do some very weird things to get in the air. Also, I was under the impression weight transfer awareness is not expected until one starts learning the loop and flip? *shrug* at my rink it's not expected anyway.

I didn't mean taking off from the flat.

You don't need weight transfer awareness for toe loop or salchow?

[GoSveta]

Oh, don't worry, I'm sure this thread will be locked soon. :roll: ....But I'd rather see it locked than have them continue to hammer me (and adults like me.) It is annoying to have someone who cannot even land an axel put down someone who can land doubles. Know what I mean? And they think they are "better" than the skaters who can land the doubles because their singles have "good technique." Give me a break! I mean this might make them feel better about themselves, and maybe their coach will agree with them in theory and to continue getting their lesson $, but in reality this just doesn't fly......And it is insulting to those of us who CAN land doubles (even sloppy ones)!!!

I'm not gonna lie... I feel similarly. That's the reason why that specific post sort of stuck out at me...

But if the thread is going to degrade into a flame fest, I'd rather suspend my participation in it for a while :P

[Isk8NYC]

Just a reminder to keep the discussion going without insulting or attacking others. If you can't agree, just disagree in an agreeable way. The Ignore feature is available if needed to keep your temper (and fingers) in check.

[BatikatII]

Surely as adults we are free to make our own choices. He who pays the piper calls the tune and all that.

If your goal is testing and competitions then obviously it pays to learn things to the standard that will be called - particularly difficult now under IJS where jumps that have passed the relevant tests and been marked as such in competition now seem to be 'not good enough' - or at least that's what happened to many UK adults this year at the IJS championships.:evil: :x

But if you aren't interested in doing competitions but want to jump and do doubles and don't much care about the niceties then that's a valid choice too and for those who don't like to see jumps with bad technique you can think of them as useful pointers in what to avoid and be happy in the knowledge that in competition the better technique will win out.

Not sure why every one gets so heated about this - aren't we adults who can make our own choices?

My personal preference is probably for good technique since I do want to compete and age and physical limitations mean I'm finding it hard going to get a lutz, let alone an axel (although I have attempted doubles in a camp alongside the kids!8-) but if some people want to chuck themselves about who am I to stop them:D

[Isk8NYC]

I've seen several threads on the demerits of coaches rushing kids through basics in favour of more glitzy jumps and spins. However, what are your thoughts on this in an adult context - people who aren't necessarily going to build triples on the foundation and have the comprehension to think about what they are doing?

I would like to - and have been told that there is no reason I shouldn't be able to - land doubles eventually. It's not that I don't enjoy footwork - I really do! - but nothing seems to be as limited as jumps by age.

I notice that some of the other adult skaters/their coaches seem to be rushing through the elements. There's a girl who started around when I did and, without wanting to sound mean, she can do quite a few elements technically but they are not pretty. She is starting on flip but her waltz jumps have little distance or height, for example. Her edges, extension and power are not great, but enough to see her through. But her coach's philosophy seems to be to do it all, then come back and tidy up.

I guess I'm a little bit concerned. My coach is exceptionally precise (dancer!), which I appreciate, and I realise that having rock solid MITF and singles is a great starting point - on the other hand, I'm not getting younger and one can improve edges, positions and power at any age?

Thoughts? Am I being too paranoid?

Back on topic: there are two approaches to learning/training for skaters of ANY age.

Some skaters, especially adults, want to do everything as perfect as possible while they're learning. Every movement and check takes time to perfect, but once the jump, spin or other element is learned, it's solid and looks correct from the first successful completion.

The other way is to force elements with minimal finesse. The forceful skater uses speed and strength to complete the elements. While they appear to be doing the actual element, the checks, edging and full position/rotation isn't always there.

Speaking from experience, it takes just as much (and perhaps more) time to correct the errors that result from learning through brute force. Other elements also suffer, which is why many skaters get "stuck" on higher-level skills - the foundation core just isn't there.

There's another affect: the "forced element" skater really believes that s/he can "land a double loop" or "do a layback." but their rinkmates often think to themselves that the skater is delusional because the element is cheated and incorrect. To the other skaters and to judges, a cheated, sloppy element doesn't count. Others' opinions matter more to some people than others, so it is again, your choice to make as a skater.

It's up to each person to decide where they want to spend their time learning, or even if they want to learn elements properly. There's always some skating school that will hand out badges for poor element execution. However, the USFSA judges are much more strict.

I've learned (the hard way) that starting out slow and correct is easier than forcing and relearning. I've seen it in myself, fellow skaters, and in my students. The tortoise really does win the race in the end if your goals include having other people watch you skate. YMMV, though.

[Pandora]

Back on topic: there are two approaches to learning/training for skaters of ANY age.

Some skaters, especially adults, want to do everything as perfect as possible while they're learning. Every movement and check takes time to perfect, but once the jump, spin or other element is learned, it's solid and looks correct from the first successful completion.

The other way is to force elements with minimal finesse. The forceful skater uses speed and strength to complete the elements. While they appear to be doing the actual element, the checks, edging and full position/rotation isn't always there.


It is interesting that you mention that there are two approaches but then espose one approach and kind of dis the other.....

I would argue that too much emphasis on "perfection" limits many skaters and puts them in a "safe" zone so they don't have to try items they are "afraid" of or have taken a few "bad" falls on....

No item is "perfect" when the skater starts to work on it. (Not even Plushinkos triples. There is a video of him on youtube as a child. Triples with curly, tight landings. He was, like, nine. But you get the picture.) You have to start somewhere....

There's another affect: the "forced element" skater really believes that s/he can "land a double loop" or "do a layback." but their rinkmates often think to themselves that the skater is delusional because the element is cheated and incorrect. To the other skaters and to judges, a cheated, sloppy element doesn't count. Others' opinions matter more to some people than others, so it is again, your choice to make as a skater.

Well, if the jump takes off from a back outside edge and lands on a back outside edge and does rotates 2 revs, (OK on ice this gets "weird" because you tend to use your pick to hook the jump, so it's really, like 1 and 3/4 rotation, but you get what I mean), then they DID do a 2 loop. Maybe other skaters/judges would like to see it higher or faster or....whatever...but it IS a 2 loop. Same for the layback. As long as the head is level to the shoulders, then it is a layback. Maybe other skaters/judges would like to see more backbend or a better leg position or.....whatever....But it is still a layback... What I'm getting at is the point at where an item is so "bad" that it is not acceptable is relative. It is relative in general (against the book), and it is also relative to your competitiors (if you in a competition)....

[Isk8NYC]

The OP asked for opinions and that is my opinion based on my experience.

I actually care what other people think about my skating now, much more than I did when I was a young adult. I didn't like being outskated, so I cleaned up my technique. Okay, my very-German skating coach MADE me clean up my act and I am forever grateful to her for that strictness because it made me a much better skater and competitor.

As I said to the OP, your mileage may vary. Everyone has to make their own choices with their coaches' input.

[BatikatII]

It is interesting that you mention that there are two approaches but then espose one approach and kind of dis the other.....

I would argue that too much emphasis on "perfection" limits many skaters and puts them in a "safe" zone so they don't have to try items they are "afraid" of or have taken a few "bad" falls on....


I don't think she was dissing it as you put it. That's not how I read it at all. Plus I don't think anyone is saying things have to be 'perfect' since that's pretty unattainable anyway.

The difference is between rushing into things because you are keen to do them even if they don't look as good, as compared to someone who wants the elements to look as good as they can get them. The first is a valid approach if you are not too bothered about competing where the inbetweens and basic skating and good positions etc are part of the judging system.

If you go that route and want to compete then you have to go back and tidy up what you have, which as many people have pointed out often ends up being harder than taking a bit more time to learn it properly in the first place. But if what you want out of skating is the excitement of jumping then that's great as long as you appreciate that it won't be scored as highly (should you decide to compete) as the same element done better.

And if you aren't competing then it shouldn't matter what other people think of your jumps. If you do care about what they think then it pays to try to do it as well as possible with good technique and that will impress them more than one with sloppy technique



Well, if the jump takes off from a back outside edge and lands on a back outside edge and does rotates 2 revs, (OK on ice this gets "weird" because you tend to use your pick to hook the jump, so it's really, like 1 and 3/4 rotation, but you get what I mean), then they DID do a 2 loop. Maybe other skaters/judges would like to see it higher or faster or....whatever...but it IS a 2 loop. Same for the layback. As long as the head is level to the shoulders, then it is a layback. Maybe other skaters/judges would like to see more backbend or a better leg position or.....whatever....But it is still a layback... What I'm getting at is the point at where an item is so "bad" that it is not acceptable is relative. It is relative in general (against the book), and it is also relative to your competitiors (if you in a competition)....

Competitive skaters tend to consider you can only really claim to have an element if it is of a standard that would pass the relevant test. In general if your jumps would pass the tests on that jump then yes you have that element. (Even though I have seen under rotated jumps pass and conversely pretty darn good ones fail!). The levels don't just include jumps though so to get the tests you also need to have the footwork and spins etc. which means if you only want to jump you can't take the tests and you have no way of knowing whether they'd pass or not.

The rules on jumps under IJS are really tough though so if you want to compete under IJS the jumps have to be very good technically - even the singles or they are simply not even counted.

To the OP: it sounds like maybe you don't have the best fit with your coach and you might be better off with a freestyle coach rather than a dance one (or have both!) and be sure to let them know what you you want out of your skating. Nothing to stop you asking to learn the jumps faster while continuing to do the footwork and stuff.

[jazzpants]

I've learned (the hard way) that starting out slow and correct is easier than forcing and relearning.Yup! That's me as of now. Am redoing BASICS (you guys read A LOT from me about working on crossovers, right?) No fun losing my flips and lutzes in the process, but then again, they probably weren't all that great in the first place if a couple of judges thought they were either toe loops or loop jumps... so... :roll:

Other case in point...Adult Silver Move... have to work on basic EDGES a LOT to get to the point where I can get those pesky 3turns in the field. It's what I get for working with one coach that is a edge/footwork specialty and another that has a figures background. :P

To the OP... it sounds like you got a dance coach... Am I correct? (I'm asking b/c my secondary coach is VERY detailed and concise, but all her students are FS students. She does have a dance background which is why she's VERY detailed and concise.)

[AxelBaby]

To the OP:

My recommendation to you would be to try to scope out a "jump coach." One that you can just jump with, and save the basics for another coach. Yes strong basic skating is very important. But I also feel where you are coming from with the "not getting any younger." I seriously have nightmares about what I am going to do when I can't pound jumps for hours anymore. I agree with your opinion that it seems like the jumps are most limited by age. So I say definitely go for it and try to achieve all you can jump wise. Just don't neglect those other skills. As others have pointed out, it will catch up with you. But if you have enough time and energy, I simply don't see why you can't excel in both area. But I think it would be helpful to have another coach, or even an extra lesson a week with your current coach, but let them know that you really want this extra time to be dedicated to jumping only. Sometimes I think coaches and skaters can both become overwhelmed in a lesson because lets face it, there are alway a zillion things to work on and improve upon. Perhaps it is just a matter of separating the time a bit better.

As for some of the other posts...I am torn. I am one of those skaters who loves to jump, and hates being told to work on my basic skating. But I work on both. I learned the hard way that YES!!!! those three turns, mohawks, and everything else really do count.

I agree with pushing yourself. Especially for myself, I learn by making mistakes. So sometimes it is helpful for me to actually work on something long before it is perfect, because that is how I learn to correct myself. It is actually much more beneficial to me than hearing corrections, I have to feel them. And I am also guilty of attempting certain skills before I am actually ready for them. But that is my own choice.

I am also one of those people who absolutely HATES it when I see children or adults doing under rotated jumps or sloppy spins and claiming that they "have" a skill. Drives me bonkers. In my opinion you "have" a skill when it is largely consistent and done properly.

Are my skills perfect? Absolutely not. Yes, of course I want to accomplish all that I possibly can. But in my opinion there really is no excuse for improper technique. To me it's like comparing the kid in school that works hard and gets "As" to the kid that does the bare minimum and gets "Cs." I like my As. I'm not afraid to work hard for it. But in the end I think the result is the same. The child or adult who works hard and does things properly, is the "better" skater (just in my opinion!). Everything looks polished. But at the same time, of course it's really fun to be able to have a great skill they can show off.

We all skate for ourselves. So I agree with the other postings that give the messages of "well if you are happy with your skating..."

But at the same time, imagine what the sport would be like without the artistry? Imagine what it would be like if you no longer saw the polished performances where you know that every single movement was so close to perfect that it was absolutely awe inspiring and brought tears to your eyes. Those are things that you simply cannot rush through, and things that are very rare in children and adults.

In the end that is what I want to strive for - the entire package. It isn't enough for me to just have jumps or spins, I want it ALL!!! But hey...that's just me.

Sorry for the tangent.

OP you can do both!! Just because you want to advance your jumps quicker doesn't mean you have to neglect the other portions. Perhaps you just need more ice time to get everything in!

[Sessy]

That would make sense if she didn't have all her doubles and wasn't working on double axel, double double combinations, etc.

If the coach uses video analysis, he or she can know if a skater is even capable of a double axel (air time, etc.), without wasting time training an element the skater is not yet capable of landing consistently.

A skater can have enough air time, but not have a correct or tight enough spinning position (wrapping, opening up, etc) which is why the after-landing spinning then gets added to the jump. Plus, you have to start learning a jump somewhere, often it's with drills like that.

Kinda suspicious about the skater already having all her doubles and having them like that though.



I didn't mean taking off from the flat.

You didn't, I did when I said doing waltz jumps with no concept of edge was pushing it too far... Are we still talking about the same thing? I'm confuzzled.


You don't need weight transfer awareness for toe loop or salchow?

Not really... Until skaters start trying for a loop or a flip or so their toeloops and salchows tend to basically be nothing more than steps anyway, how much weight awareness transfer is needed for a mohawk? With the elements for the F diploma mastered (at least at my skating rink) all of the singles come into focus and then suddenly skaters start having to take off for their jumps and then weight transfer becomes an issue. But a sort of stepped waltz jump, meh, happens all the time at first. At least, at my club. I think it's mostly just an issue of getting people to sort of, do *something* and then height and technique can be added later. People at first tend to be like glued to the ice with fear of flying.

[doubletoe]

Surely as adults we are free to make our own choices. He who pays the piper calls the tune and all that.

If your goal is testing and competitions then obviously it pays to learn things to the standard that will be called - particularly difficult now under IJS where jumps that have passed the relevant tests and been marked as such in competition now seem to be 'not good enough' - or at least that's what happened to many UK adults this year at the IJS championships.:evil: :x

But if you aren't interested in doing competitions but want to jump and do doubles and don't much care about the niceties then that's a valid choice too and for those who don't like to see jumps with bad technique you can think of them as useful pointers in what to avoid and be happy in the knowledge that in competition the better technique will win out.

Not sure why every one gets so heated about this - aren't we adults who can make our own choices?

Agreed! In a world where people all had the same learning style and weren't getting any older, I would definitely recommend getting your edges and turns solid before jumping. But each of us has a different personality and learning style and we are also getting a little older every year. I probably would have gotten really bored if I hadn't been allowed to jump until everything else was perfect. I also know that I am more afraid (and rightfully so) of learning new jumps In my 40's than I was in my 20's and 30's, so I am glad my coach allowed me to work on any jump I wanted back then, even though my skating skills weren't as good as they are now. Sure, I had to go back and re-learn my toeloop takeoff and I also had to re-work my double salchow, but at least I wasn't afraid of them.

[teresa]

As a new adult skater my lst coach was all about the fun stuff. I did have fun playing. =-) It's crazy but she had my trying axels after 3 months. =-0 I really had no idea... After about 6 months I started to notice the skaters around me and knew this wasn't right. I tried to find a coach who could help me with technique and moves. After trial and error I found someone I feel comfortable with and who does work with me on moves and technique. She also seems to understand my desire to try things. Like mentioned, adults are aware of a limited time for jumps. Moves with good technique makes quality jumps and spins. After a certain level is accomplished I do think it's okay to try jumps and spins. If you wait until your perfect, especially as an adult, you may never get to try. It doesn't mean that you stop practicing moves to make them as good as possible. Skating is a journey to always make things better. =-) I did find that "relearning" skating after playing was HARD. It's much better to build a good foundation 1st! Yes, I was very lucky that I didn't kill myself!

teresa

[Kim to the Max]

I am a fan of slow and steady wins the race...that is what I tell my kids and that what I believe works. I have seen kids get jumps and spins like that, but that 2 toe is about 2 inches off the ice and then when the kids grows, they lose the jump because they can't just whip around any more, then they get frustrated and they quit. But, if you spend the time working on something and not rush it, you will be able to compensate, and yes, you may lose it, but you will also have a good foundation to get it back.

Yes, adults are different. They are not growing, and yes, time is limited in a sense. But each skills builds on each other. I do not think you need to wait until one things is perfected before starting another. If I had done that, I would still be working on a lutz jump (some days it's pitiful - always has been even as a kid), and yes, my axel is still cheated on a good day, but my 2 sal is huge (and while not completely clean, it's closer than the axel), and my 2 toe is getting closer to being on 1 foot. All 3 of those use similar take offs so it is all working together. But - if I did not have a good waltz jump or a good back spin or good edges, I could kiss all of those goodbye.

But that is just my opinion.

[GoSveta]

Kinda suspicious about the skater already having all her doubles and having them like that though.

It's probablly a bad habit that the skater was allowed to train, and never corrected. Sometimes she'll land on her toe pick and stay up there for like half a second.

You can imagine how much speed she has coming out of her jumps because of that.

Her singles, however, are quite nice. She should probably be told to flex her landing food in the air a little, instead of pointing it like a gymnast.

[jazzpants]

Not really... Until skaters start trying for a loop or a flip or so their toeloops and salchows tend to basically be nothing more than steps anyway, how much weight awareness transfer is needed for a mohawk? The weight transfer is actually relevant for all toe jumps. The reason I say this is I'm fixing my flip and lutz now... and the weight transfer thing is the problem. (I have to learn to pole vault into a spin in the air!?!!?!? And land cleanly to a nice BO edge glide too??? 8O ) Needless to say, the toe loop is NOT my best jump for a reason... :giveup:

Okay, this other topic about bad jump technique has been talked about ad nauseum here and we're...

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e367/gatsby6306/thsmiley_deadhorse.gif

Can we agree to disagree

http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/musik/d025.gif

and go on with our lives?

http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/musik/p020.gif

http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/musik/n015.gif

[Mel On Ice]

you haven't found a champagne emoticon yet Joanna?

[toepix]

Wow, I never knew that this post would cause so much debate! It's been really interesting to get everyone's feedback. Thank you :)

I've been taking lessons for 2 months but started as a recreational skater with reasonable stroking and crossovers, messy forward 3s in one direction only (and bizarrely, a high, wide but hella ugly toe loop). I'm aware of the need to be patient in case my post sounds otherwise - it was a combination of looking ahead and a whiny post after a bad skate, in which I almost dislocated my knee and fell on EVERYTHING ;) I've taken a step back over the past couple of days and feel a bit better.

Yes, my coach is a dance coach but I actually chose him because I saw one of his adult pupils land beautiful axels and doubles,so I definitely don't doubt his competence to teach freestyle. I'm only working on waltz, sal and toe right now, so not sure that a separate jump coach isnecessary (nor would know who to go to at my rink - I'm UK based and the focus is on dance, only 2 coaches have people I know are landing doubles) - but definitely bearing the idea in mind for the future so thanks to those who suggested :D

[jazzpants]

you haven't found a champagne emoticon yet Joanna?

Oh, I HAVE!!! :mrgreen:

There's this:
http://www.cosgan.de/images/kao/nahrung/f010.gif

And then there's this:
http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/musik/n025.gif

and this...
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And of course, what happens AFTER drinking the champagne:

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http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/musik/l050.gif

[Mel On Ice]

I think I like the bubbles in the flute glass best.

[londonicechamp]

Hi

It is always important to get the basics correct before attempting any jump. When I first learnt skating over 10 years ago, the coach just rushed me through all the jumps from waltz up till toe loop, and then rushed me through one foot spin, not aware that my leg crossing position was not even correct, in that there was an extra step before I crossed. So I later on changed coach, and that coach spent ages to correct those wrong moves/bad habits.

Since 1 year ago, I am picking up skating again after 4 non-skate years due to work commitment. Now that I have a private coach in my home country (Singapore), she is very strict in making sure that my landing position is correct (I have tendency to have bent knees), then my jump (such as loop jump) is not rushed. She will have me do edges work on every lesson too. She rather that I move up the level slowly than rushed me through, as that would be better for me in the long run.

And yes, it sucks to correct the bad habits of years of lousy skating.

I have seen a man over his 60s in my home country rink, and he does huge jumps, though the posture is not great and there is almost non-existence of landing position. He also views himself as the only elegant skater in the ice rink, and often jumps without looking whether another skater (either small kids, children or adults) are behind him or not.

londonicechamp