I need some advice about my daughter!

[Daisy2]

Could someone help me as to how to help my daughter get over popping her jumps. It has really become a big problem. She is a very good skater and lands her jumps easily, when she actually jumps. I have tried everything that I can think of to try and help. :(

Any Advice?

[Scott]

You need to step out of the picture and say nothing. Let your daughter and her coach solve this problem. I would only talk to your daughter about this problem if she raises it with you. By stepping back you will be takingthe pressure off and she can then work with her coach. You may also want to have someone else work with her on her jumps.

[Daisy2]

I have been trying to help her because her coach is so mad at her right now. Her coach thinks if he throws her out of her lesson that this will help. I don't agree. I think he should work with her and try to find a way to overcome this problem.

[blue111moon]

Find another coach.

[Daisy2]

The only problem with that is that we are a small club with only one high level coach. I already travel 1 hour each way to get to the rink. I can't travel any further.

[RobinA]

Do you need a "high-level" coach? Popping is kind of mental, so it sounds to me like this situation can only get worse under the present circumstances. If her coach can't help your daughter overcome this (and may even be making the problem worse), and you certainly can't because you aren't a skating coach, the only option is another coach with an approach that might better serve your daughter.

[JDC1]

I agree the coach should not be getting mad at her about her popping her jumps. Her coach should be supportive and focus on something else, like teaching her some new spins or some new footwork. You both should talk to her about her jumps , Why does she think she's popping them, is it fear? Does she want more attention and she finds that she gets attention if she pops her jumps? He should have her practicing her backspin more and then he should also use the harness. Do your best to find another coach, drive further if you have to, if your daughter loves skating it's worth it, this non-supportive coach might make her hate skating. I know I'd hate skating if my coaches got mad at me when I couldn't learn something!!

[Daisy2]

I asked her why she pops and she tells me she doesn't feel right going into it or she will just stop if another skater is even within 10 feet of her.
I really don't think she is afraid. She can land all of her doubles when she jumps, she mainly pops on her double lutz.

I really feel it is all mental but I don't know how to help with that. I thought about a sports psycologist

[adrianchew]

Daisy - I'm moving this topic over to On Ice - we have skaters of various levels that check On Ice more often, and they might be able to help you out better. ~adrianchew~

[A.H.Black]

It's a little late in the year, but how about a two week trip to another rink and another coach? I know Linda Leaver used to send Brian Boitano all over for different seminars and camps. Anything she thought might help him. A new perspective might help her and you.

[RoaringSkates]

It does sound like it's mental. A sports psychologist might help.

I'm also one who hates doing certain near other skaters. They make me nervous. It takes some getting used to for me, especially now, when the rinks start getting more crowded.

Is there a less crowded session that she might be able to skate on? Maybe she could work on this jump in that session and get more confidence with it, then move to the more crowded session again?

[backspin]

How long has it been going on? It may be a phase, which everyone goes through with jumps as I'm sure you've noticed.

I'm not a freestyle coach so I can't give you advice about how to fix her jumps, but if it hasn't been that long, I don't know that you need a sports psychologist.

Different coaches have different ways of saying something, & maybe hearing something from someone else will help her. I agree with the idea that a seminar or outside coaching is a good idea, IF you discuss it with her coach & get him/her behind the idea. It does no good to go away, get everything fixed up (which may or may not happen, by the way), and then come back to a surly coach who will criticize everything "the other" coaches told her.

I really think you need to start w/ the coach here, it sounds like they are not helping. Do it away from your daughter so she doesn't feel like she's being "discussed". If the coach is not approachable or is unwilling to try a different tack (tact?), maybe you will be forced to find another alternative. In general when something high-level isn't working, I'd suspect the underlying basic technique. Even if it's mental, like she says, "it doesn't feel right", there may be a real underlying reason.

How old is your daughter? Does she have important comps coming up that make it crucial to get these jumps back NOW? How long did she have her doubles before this problem began? Did she take a bad fall sometime that started it all off?

[Daisy2]

My daughter is 11. She has been doing all her doubles
for a few years. She has had this problem on and off for a while. Recently it was only bad when practicing her jumps individually. It seemed that if she skated her program, she would jump them all. But last week at regionals it was a different story. She skated beautifully the first round and finished 2nd but in the second round she popped both of her lutzs. Her coach was calm at first until we got back home. Now he is mad that she did that in competition. I think now the more we talk about it the worse it gets. She says she is trying not to pop but continues to do it. I also thought about taking her off the ice for a few weeks but she doesn't want to.

[flo]

Sounds like there's a problem between the skater and coach. I agree that a change is in order. A new start for all. As far as a "high level coach", the present one does not seem to be working - high level or not.

[backspin]

Well, popping jumps in practice at home & popping them in the throes of a qualifying competition are 2 entirely different things.

Sounds like she started doubting herself before regionals, & when she got there the added pressure of it all just got to be a little much. Makes me wonder if coach made some comment like "now go out there and don't pop those jumps!". Works just like saying "don't think about elephants!". Can't help it, right? And now she probably can't stop thinking, "don't pop your jumps!"

I don't know, it may be a phase of self-doubt she needs to work through.

Here's an idea that may sound a little wacky but may have some merit:

When I started coaching I found that when I'm demonsrating something that I'm normally a little shaky on, I always do it better in front of the students. It's like, okay, you're the coach, you'd better do this right! Is there any situation you could get her into where she would be helping a class or a coach by demonstrating different things? Not just jumps, but everything. It's still pressure, but it's a different kind, & I've seen it work. And if you do miss the element, it isn't a big deal. It may also have the advantage of making her explain and/or demonstrate all the little pieces that go into the element, & she may be able to start analyzing how to make it work better.

Think how good a little kid would feel if a coach called her over & said to their student, "Kim's got a really strong lutz entrance; could you demonstrate that for me Kim?" Kids believe what they're told--maybe if she's told her lutz is really good, she'll start believing it again.

I think, above all, neither you nor the coach should make a huge deal of this. You work on the jumps, you work on the spins, you work on it all. Focusing on one thing that isn't working & drilling it into the ground rarely works to fix it. She gets off the ice after popping her lutzes, well, the lutzes are still on vacation. But your spins were really good today. Always point out the positive & be encouraging, & let her know that just because they didn't work today doesn't mean they won't work tomorrow.

I don't know if I've been helpful at all, but I hope everything works out for you & your daughter. Be patient, & it will eventually come back together, I'm sure.

[Daisy2]

Thank you for your kind words and advice. I will give it a try.:)

[AxelAnnie22]

If you are going to stay with that coach, then let him coach. Don't undermine him. If your daughter is going to stay with this guy, she needs to know that YOU are not second guessing her coach.

But it sounds like she simply let nerves get the better of her in one program at one competition. That's not a big deal, in and of itself. If you daughter does not respond well to anger (and I don't ---I fold), well then she is with the wrong coach. Coaches generally have one teaching style, and it doesn't fit all students. I work well with praise for the good things I do, and correction for the bad. Some people respond well to harrangues and anger.

Also, as a mother of 5, I can tell you that you need to get out of the conversation with your daughter. Just listen. She has to work it out. The more discussion of "popping" jumps, the more you will see "popped" jumps. It will becomes all she thinks about while she is skating. She will be either worrying one is coming, or worrying that one just happened.

Keep us posted...OK?

[pinkjellybean]

AxelAnnie's advice is really great.

When I stated bailing on jumps it was after an accidentand some veryhard falls. I needed to get my confidence back up and get some distance from the memory of the falls. So instead of my usual routine of doing one thingover and over until it was perfect I allowed myself some extra time to warm up and get comfortable on the ice. That took my focus off the jump that was giving me problems and then I could work on that jumps little by little so that I could regain confidence.

But I think you need to step out of the situation. To have my mom try andsolve my problems on the ice would make me feel more pressure. She listened and reinforced that I wasn't a horrible skater and agreed with me that focusing on other things would take the pressure off.

But if your daughters coach can't adapt histeaching style to put her at ease then maybe he's not the right coach for her. When my first and only coach moved she recomended another coach. I didn't like my first impressions of the coach but we hired her because my coach and mom thought it would be good since she would push me (like my 1st coach) and is good at technique (also my like my 1st coach)... well she was also very good at yelling and being abusive. I had to stay with her for two weeks until after my test. But she demoralized me so much those two weeks were the first time ever I didn't even want to go into the arena, and I have skated in countless competitions and tests but the parents watching could literally see my legs shaking during the test where I missed jumps I hadn't missed in the longest time. Teaching style is very important. If I'm not comfortable with my coach I don't skate as well as I could. At my home club I ended up with a coach who may not have the biggest reputation for pushingreally hard but we could work together to my goals... to most people she doesn't come across as demanding but she was like my first coach in that she pushes but it comes out as positive reinforcement insted of screaming at me.

I would say you should step back from the situation. If the problem is that your daughter's not comfortable with the coach then that's a different story. But give her some time without expecting her to always land the jumps, sometimes you lose the jump for a little while. Just give her confidence and listen to what she is saying.

[ClevelandDancer]

Originally posted by flo
Sounds like there's a problem between the skater and coach. I agree that a change is in order. A new start for all. As far as a "high level coach", the present one does not seem to be working - high level or not.

I agree, sounds like your daughter is in need of a different coach, if not permanently at least temporarily. You might be able to get a different coach to choreograph a new program, even a Christmas/exhibition type thing for her. I'd choose someone with a completely different coaching style to give her a different perspective on things.

Do be mindful of a possibility ... the reason you think her coach is the only high-level coach around could be because he/she said so him/herself. I've seen it happen.

[Daisy2]

:) Thanks everyone! I am sure glad I posted my question.

[icenut84]

Everyone's advice has been really great. I hope your daughter can sort out this situation. Maybe a coaching change is one answer. Just wanted to say - I'm another one who doesn't like to do things if people are too close. I skate in pretty crowded sessions and sometimes stand waiting for ages for enough space to do a jump, whereas most people would have done 10 in the time. I don't know why - I'm just scared of hitting people. I've always been like that though - even in gymnastics, I hated when I had to do a cartwheel and someone was too close - I ended up with bent legs and bailing out and not doing it properly. Maybe it's the same with your daughter - if someone's too close, she doesn't feel comfortable going for the jump.
Also, what she said about it not feeling right - it is often very difficult to perform a jump well if you know that the entrance is not exactly right, that everything isn't in the right place. You may have noticed that some skaters on TV seem to "telegraph" their jumps, ie. they pause for a few seconds before the entry. This is a way for them to ensure everything is right, and therefore the jump will be successful. It's not uncommon - just so you know.
I also think maybe there needs to be less pressure put on the jumps - the more someone panics about popping a jump, the more likely they will. Maybe this is a phase she will get through - a lot of skaters lose a jump occasionally. It doesn't mean they never get it back.
Good luck! :)

[KathySkates]

Daisy, you may want to take your daughter to another rink or a different session even for just one day. A change of venue may be just the jump start she needs.
Or if you can afford it, rent the ice for her for a half hour. Have her practice the double lutz nice and easy without the coach. Do this on a day when she is well rested and in a good mood.
I'm struggling with double toe and I know that it will be back when I can find the time to go off in a corner by myself to work on it. During my lessons, I am too anxious to please the coach. I will do all kinds of crazy things on jump attempts. We can get frantic and pop jumps or circle around and around before even making an attempt!
As for the coach, re-examine the relationship. Unless a student is being abusive, disrespectful or insubordinate, he or she should not be thrown off lesson. This just humiliates the kid. Trust me. I have been a school teacher for 18 years.
I take lessons from a well-known elite coach. He is terrific but the other "unknown" coaches that I work are wonderful as well. Several years ago I used to see Robin Wagner every day. Let me tell you, she was a great coach then too! Maybe another coach would be best for your daughter.
Good Luck to you! Let us know how it turns out!

[1lutz2klutz]

Has your daughter recently had a growth spurt, or started to go thru puberty? She's certainly in the right age range, and if her body is changing,she may well feel that "things aren't right" going into her approach or in the air. I remember when my kids were going thru growth spurts they seemed to lose a lot of coordination until they got used to their "new" bodies.

[pinkjellybean]

I think this has kind of been suggested here but my coach used to take me to other coaches...wether it was during the summer or for a couple of lessons... It provided me with another point of view andanother set of eyes. Eventhough we had no problems it was very helpful to have objective input from someone outside the everyday circle of things. I always found this refreshing...it obviously wasn't an everyday occurance but once in a while it renwed me and helped with any ruts I had fallen into. See if there are any upcoming on-ice seminars in your area. Sometimes others have tricks on entries that help them feel comfortable with jumps, or different ways to practice the jump process step by step.

:)

[FSWer]

I don't skate myself. But why not try geting the book "Figure Skating for Dummies". It has ilistrations on all the moves.

[dooobedooo]

Is she doing that standard entry into the lutz where the skater travels very fast backwards and can have a blind spot to skaters passing behind?

Perhaps it might be better if she worked out some fancy footwork into the lutz which gave her better sightlines? She could have a two or three different programmed entries and do them alternately. It would also make more flow through the jump itself.

A skater I admire remarked to me, that if something isn't working, then you need to work on the bit of skating immediately before it, because that is often where the problem lies.

[Daisy2]

She does work on the lutz with some footwork in the entrance. That seemed to work for a while but then that went bad too. Her coach gave her some new footwork into it last night and she landed 2 out of 3 and see did not pop. I really do believe it is totally mental. If he could just give her new footwork everytime she jumps it she might be ok but as soon as she gets comfortable with the footwork the pops happen again.

[ClevelandDancer]

Originally posted by FSWer
I don't skate myself. But why not try geting the book "Figure Skating for Dummies". It has ilistrations on all the moves.

Edited at request of moderator ... I don't think this would be helpful.

[nutty-ducky]

what is popping? :oops:

[ClevelandDancer]

Originally posted by nutty-ducky
what is popping? :oops:

Popping is when a skater tries to do a multi-revolution jump, i.e., a double, triple or quad, but either fails to pull in to do the revolutions or opens up way too early and thus fails to do the revolutions. In either case, they usually end up landing a really funny looking single version of the lump. Most "popped" jumps do result in a landing rather than a fall.

It's pretty easy to recognise a popped jump vs. an intentional single. When popping, the skater is up in the air in a very open position (free leg and arms way out away from body) looking like they have a lot of time on their hands and no idea what to do with it. Popped jumps have a "lot of hang time" look to them.

For an intentional single, the skater would have all their limbs pulled in to the standard rotating position, they would just be rotating slowly.

Hope this helped!

[nutty-ducky]

Originally posted by ClevelandDancer
Popping is when a skater tries to do a multi-revolution jump, i.e., a double, triple or quad, but either fails to pull in to do the revolutions or opens up way too early and thus fails to do the revolutions. In either case, they usually end up landing a really funny looking single version of the lump. Most "popped" jumps do result in a landing rather than a fall.

It's pretty easy to recognise a popped jump vs. an intentional single. When popping, the skater is up in the air in a very open position (free leg and arms way out away from body) looking like they have a lot of time on their hands and no idea what to do with it. Popped jumps have a "lot of hang time" look to them.

For an intentional single, the skater would have all their limbs pulled in to the standard rotating position, they would just be rotating slowly.

Hope this helped!

thanks for explaining, ClevelandDancer. :D

[anital]

What a great explanation Clevland Dancer!

Daisy2,

When I pop jumps (and it's usually the lutz too) it's always because I'm thinking too much. Mostly comes from information overload, being told do this and this and this and then footwork into the lutz and this and then this. Four times and then you can go home. :) Or something to that effect! So my brain is in overload and I'm just not relaxed enough to pull off the jump and I pop it.

To overcome this, I try to do a lot of things I'm good at (unlike your daughter, the lutz is my hardest jump) first, skate around for a bit, lalalalala, relax, get comfortable and ta-da, the jump usually comes. I practice the footwork into it by itself a lot first and everything else before and after and the lutz alone a few times, then I do the whole lot together.

It does sound like it might be a mind set for your daughter, especially if it's just the one jump. Giving her new footwork everytime is not a good option, because it wouldn't necessarily work if she was working on a program. Does she usually get the jump in practice when the coach isn't there? I too believe a coaching change is in order.
Do keep us posted and good luck!

[sk8rzmom]

You say she's 11? I bet that nasty bug called puberty is setting in. And when it comes to visit it canlast for years! Seriously though, this is a problem that some skaters go through more than others. Is she a perfectionist? That personality trait seems to set a kid up for popping. If something isn't exactly right, they pop or, worse yet, circle endlessly.
But hold on, it will end when you least expect it! And then, get the most mileage out of the good times by taking tests. 'Cause if you wait, most kids lose interest before they test to senior. Too many kids with all that great potential quit because there's way too many other things to do, like get a driver's license, or a part-time job, or a boyfriend.
If the coach is hung up on results, make wure your daughter knows you are more interested in learning, and that you know progress may ne uneven for a while. Just be supportive.

[supersk8er]

Oh dear...you need to take a step back from this skating...you don't want to become one of those "skating moms" that skaters talk about to eachother. You need to let your daughter work out her own mental issues by herself or with her coach...don't take this offensively...it's just important that you don't butt in because there's really nothing you can do to help your daughter.