Sk8Strong new article links

[rsk8d]

A new article is now posted on www.sk8strong.com: "Foot Pronation and the Figure Skater" The link is at: http://www.sk8strong.com/articles/article/6311334/142273.htm

Please post article topic suggestions on this thread!

I will use this thread to post new articles once they are written, instead of the old thread I had used. Find older articles at www.sk8strong.com/articles.html:

March 2010 Figure Skating and the Glut Medius Muscle

11 Feb 2010 How to Test Psoas and Hamstring Flexibility

26 Dec 2009 Plyometric Training Tips

26 Dec 2009 The Basics of Injury Prevention for Figure Skaters

26 Jun 2009 Proper Shoe-wear for Your Fragile Feet

19 Apr 2009 Don't Forget the Hamstrings

28 Feb 2009 Knee Pain: Is the Root Above the Knee?

14 Jan 2009 How Can Biomechanical Principles Help Us in Our Analysis of Skills?

21 Dec 2008 What is Core Stability?

3 Oct 2008 Functional Training vs. Weight Machines

30 Aug 2008 The Importance of Stretching

[rsk8d]

New article "What to Do When a Skater is Injured: Part One" at www.sk8strong.com.

Link: http://www.sk8strong.com/articles/article/6311334/143272.htm

[Query]

I love your articles. They provide such a good resource for the skating community.

Fortunately I don't have any major excess pronation or supination issues - just a sideways slant to the bottom of my feet that is easily corrected with a little tape under the insole.

But would it make sense, in tight fitting boots, like skates, that extend a little above the ankle, for someone who pronates or supinates too much, to employe differential pressure above and below the ankle, in addition to arch support?

I.E., if your ankle bends inwards (towards the opposite foot) during excess pronation, could you apply a small amount of extra pressure on the inside of the foot above and below the ankle joint, and on the outside of the foot at the ankle joint? This could be done by changing the tightness of boot fit at those points, or reshaping the boot. What I suggest is the obvious simple physics-based technique to straighten the joint.

It is obvious that if an ill-fit boot places differential pressures in the wrong places on your foot, it could force you to pronate or supinate, especially if you already have a tendency in that direction. So there must be people with skate pronation or supination problems who would not, if they had boots that fit their feet properly in a full 3-dimensional sense.

I assume that properly placed arch support, such as what you discuss in that article, is the more conservative, medically approved approach. But for those people for whom that alone is not enough, and are given additional extreme treatments that may actually hurt, such as a substantial sideways pressure arch pinch to immobilize the joints, it seems like small amounts of pressure around the ankle would hurt less, limit circulation less, and bruise less.

Do medical experts ever do this?

[rsk8d]

Good thought process Query. Ultimately the biomechanics of the foot should be corrected by support under the foot, such as an orthotic. Yet, the pressure from parts of the boot could somewhat affect a biomechanical issue. Pronation problems can result from a motion problem of the forefoot or the rearfoot. If it is purely a forefoot problem, adjusting the pressure at various parts of the boot may not do too much. A rearfoot problem usuallly occurs in conjunction with internal rotation of the tibia, so working with the boot to counteract it may have some effect on the ankle movement. Before I had my orthotics made (due to pronation on my left foot), I used to pull more on the laces on the inner side of the boot to put more pressure on that side. The effect of that only lasted a few minutes though.

[Query]

Umm. I think diagnosis like forefoot vs rearfoot motion go way beyond what a person can figure out for themselves, unless they have received the diagnosis in some other context. All an untrained individual can do is try the method, check for comfort and proper edge, then undo the change if it doesn't help.

If you apply more pressure to one side overall than the other, basic physics says that the boot position relative to the foot will shift until the total pressure on the left equals the total pressure on the right. But applying differential pressures, as suggested, might do something.

I guess medical practitioners are supposed to follow the standard medical practices for which they are trained. There are very few shoes which go high enough, or fit tight enough, for what I suggest to be common medical practice, so this kind of technique probably isn't part of standard practice. So maybe you as a PT couldn't safely apply the methods I suggested.

You say that corrections should come purely from beneath. But one skater told me that her podiatrist made her an orthotic which also prevented sideways (medial) motion. Apparently, as her arch collapsed, something caused the bottom of the arch to shift sideways. One would think that a rigid fitted insole (simple orthotic) would prevent the collapse and therefore the problem, but I guess there must exist enough soft tissue between the skin and the joints, muscles and ligaments that collapse or stretch, that immobilizing the outer skin did not adequately constrain the motion and stretch of those internal components. That was also the lady whose doctor made use of a strong arch pinch to force arch immobilization. She went to all the major skate manufacturers to get custom skates made, but none made her happy or comfortable. (I tried to convince her to visit a master boot maker to do the fit and adjustments.) I can only imagine that skating caused her much pain. A sane person with such issues wouldn't skate, but you must have met a few athletes who are not completely sane and reasonable.

[Lsk8]

Rsk8d--
how about an article on SI joint injury? this is what I've been dealing with. My PT says it has to do with strong back and quads, not so strong abs and medial hamstrings and medial gluts. any info would be appreciated.
Linda

[rsk8d]

Hi Linda,

My SI Joint injury at 16 was how I got into physical therapy. I'll put it on my list of topics! :)

[rsk8d]

New article posted: "How Important is the IT Band to Figure Skaters?"

Link is as follows: http://www.sk8strong.com/articles/article/6311334/144048.htm

[Skate@Delaware]

Excellent article, Lauren (they all are)!! I have an extremely tight left IT band and the rolling & stretching really help.

[rsk8d]

Thanks Skate@Delaware!

By the way, we are having a 4th of July weekend sale: 10% off with the code 'sk84th'

Anyone with article requests let me know!

[Isk8NYC]

I know you're not a skate tech, per se, but could you maybe give us some insight on how to diagnose skate issues vs. skater issues in beginners?

For example, here are some common things that I see among beginners:

Leaning constantly on an inside edge
Shuffling, being unable to hold a one-foot glide
Gliding with feet wide apart, can't bring them closer
Gliding with feet UNEVEN - can't keep them together

I've done various drills and exercises, but I often feel that it's the skates.

I hate referring people to the pro shop because most of the time, they won't go in unless I with them. They pretend the problem will go away on its own, which doesn't happen. They get frustrated because they don't progress.

Sometimes when they go to the pro shop, they're told they need orthotics. The parents' first reaction is to run away - what an expensive sport. Orthotic inserts cost $30 or more on top of the cost of a skate.

[Query]

As an experienced coach, I'm sure you make sure their laces are tight enough to control the boots. Except of course in group lessons, where there may not be time.

I picture elaborate socks with pressure sensor grids whose measurements would be transmitted to a computer for analysis of how uniform the pressures are on different parts of the foot, while the skater balances off-ice over the blade, and refined while the skater skates. If anything like that exists (for podiatrists?) it would probably be expensive.

Physics: A skater will balance over one skating foot if he or she keeps his/her center of gravity over the point of contact with the ice, no matter what is wrong with the skates. But it may take muscle strength in specific muscles, to hold a suitable body pose, and it may make the foot or muscles sore, if there is a lot of excess pressure on some parts of it, or they continuously use muscles to compensate. Or they may be unable to bring the blade to the right vertical alignment, and causing a skid, or the body pose may not look pretty.

If a skater can feel whether they have more pressure on one part of their foot than another, or if they are using muscles to compensate, you could ask and compensate. But it's hard for many people, especially kids, to put into words what they feel in their feet and muscles.

You could carry athletic tape or the several dollar priced wedges (http://www.tognar.com/boot_heater_warmer_fitting_dryer_canting_dryers_sk i_snowboard.html#wedges) to make mods for your students.

I recently had to rent boots when I had left mine home. It took me 10-15 minutes of playing around to get the balance right, and I'm pretty used to playing with balance.

While playing with the rentals, I found a quick and dirty but temporary method to play with balance - I rolled up one or two paper towels, and stuffed it under my foot on one side of the sock, and played with the towel's position until I approximately equalized the left and right pressure, and forward/back pressure, on the bottom of the foot while skating. A lot faster than reshaping an insole with tape until it has the required shape, or than molding something like Superfeet. Good enough for one use, or to test the idea.

But it would take a sizable fraction of their lesson time to get everything right. I can imagine a skater or parent thinking they had wasted the time and cost of the lesson. And impossible to manage in the course of group lessons.

Besides, the boot fitter should get it right!

[doubletoe]

Very useful article. Thanks for posting!

[rsk8d]

New article posted at http://www.sk8strong.com/articles/article/6311334/144683.htm

Discusses ACL tears, SI joint injury, wrist sprains, and groin strains. Enjoy!

[GoSveta]

Besides, the boot fitter should get it right!

I've already spend 5x the cost of these skates driving back and forth to get them "fixed" to where they are now (Klingbeil Stock Boots are $505, for reference, and yes the figure is accurate). I've had everything from a sore back to Achilles Tendonitis + 3 weeks off the ice + medical bills. Custom boots with a similar boot profile will also fall flat on their face on my feet.

Any non-master fitter who can give me a pair of customs that fit right the first time out, I'll give him or her $5k over the boot cost.

That's how confident I know they'll miff it up.

[Query]

I've already spend 5x the cost of these skates driving back and forth to get them "fixed" to where they are now.

Wow!

Wouldn't be neat if fancy boot places, like factory stores, could have a foot doctor who specialized in sports medicine give an exam and do the fitting and adjustment, for an extra fee? It would double or triple the price of the skates, worse if they needed x-rays or MRIs, but for people like you who knew they had medical issues, maybe it would be a bargain in the long run...

Unfortunately, the current crop of boot makers are master craftsmen, but not doctors.

I don't understand why we don't all have foot problems. High heels are so unnatural, as is everything else about skating and our boots.

[GoSveta]

No, it wouldn't be neat. It would be unnecessary. I'm feeling some unappreciated sarcasm in that post. :roll:

[Query]

I didn't mean to be sarcastic. Just practical.

It sounds like returning to Klingbeil alone has been largely a waste of time and money for you, and you need another path to skating nirvana.

If he knew how to deal with your problems correctly, he should fixed them at the first adjustment after the skates were made. Don Klingbeil has the knowledge and experience to make virtually any changes that he understands to his boots, but he must lack the knowledge or medical training to identify and deal effectively with your issues.

If he can't do the job, and you can't either, it seems obvious you need someone else's help.

Podiatrists and Orthopedic Surgeons who specialize in sports medicine have many years of training in related areas, and are certified to make such corrections. They should have the knowledge to find and eliminate potential medical problems in advance, especially the ones who other skaters say they have been happy with. At the very least, they ought to be able to tell you what to look for, so that you could make your own changes after visiting the rink. There are at least 5 skaters in my geographic area were misfit for Klingbeil boots by the same boot fitter who had misfit me, and who then went to the same podiatrist. I wasn't one of them, and had found my own path before learning of this option, but some of them seem fairly happy with the results, though the costs were substantial, and at least one of them had some residual problems.

I was able to make my own changes, after many years of experimentation, with discussions and help from the best boot fitters I could find. But I didn't have substantial medical issues - just pain and the soreness from dealing with poorly fit and balanced boots.

Don Klingbeil couldn't improve on what I had done in that regards, but he did freely rebuild my boots, which is way beyond my knowledge and skills, and he somewhat reluctantly gave me info about heat molding. Given the age of my boots (at that time, 5 or 6 years and about 2000 hours on the ice), and the non-standard modifications made to them by myself and others, he went way beyond the call of duty.

He clearly felt I would be better off paying him to make new custom boots after being personally measured and fit by him, but I guess I was too stubborn.

I found him extremely knowledgeable and helpful. Furthermore, most of the reasonably good skaters I know who have managed to skate for many years in the same boots are in Klingbeil boots. Some skaters who skate in other boots think it's OK for skates to break down beyond repair in less than a year, even if they don't jump much. (Exception: some of the Russian and east European ice dancers, including an Olympic skater and coach of my acquaintance, skated in the same very soft skates for decades. I don't know who made those boots.) After over 10 years, one of my Klingbeil boots is starting to form the barest traces of a break-down crease, directly opposite a V that I had cut to make bending a little easier at the ankle. I would have been better off in a little softer boots, and I should have gone to the boot maker himself for the fit, but I can't deny that my boots have worn well.

But everyone has different opinions of who does and doesn't do a good job. I think preferences in boot makers, boot fitters and coaches are somewhat akin to religious differences, and that asking who is best yields the same sorts of disagreement. No one makes everyone happy.

[GoSveta]

I haven't returned to Klingbeil yet.

That's why I said I "am going to go" to New York for my next pair of skates.

Seems you misread.

My issues aren't really medical. They're anatomical. I know what they are, and the boots fit fine. What isn't fine about the boots, is the foot bed. I need one that is somewhat flatter than a stock foot bed.

A normal fitter may get the custom boots fitten well (arch support, etc. I do wear SuperFeet in them so it may help in that regard), but if they come with as steep a foot bed as these, it will be a waste of money.

I rather go to a master fitter and let them know what I think I need, and then have the conversation with them.

Also, if I have to keep wearing SuperFeet I want my next boots to have space space allotment for them in the boot, as well.

As you can tell, I'm quite picky XD

[Query]

I'm not sure what you mean by "flat" - maybe you mean the shape to which the Superfeet are molded, or maybe you mean the overall left-to-right or front-to-back slant.

But either way, if you have room for Superfeet in your current boots, you very likely have room to fix how "flat" the foot bed is, and don't need new boots.

You can create and reshape your own insole, for several dollars material cost. Use leather or felt, a scissors and athletic tape, to give you exactly the right shape, snugness and slant that you want, with a much greater degree of control than is possible with Superfeet or equivalent. Expect to spend an hour or two the first time, because you have to experiment to figure out what you need. My page (http://mgrunes.com/boots/boots.html) talks about this.

Your Superfeet molded shape may be a good starting point for what you need. If they are thin enough, you could modify them instead of starting from scratch. Athletic tape can modify the desired slant, if there is enough room inside the boots. Superfeet are too rigid to change the top shape by adding tape from underneath, but if you use something sticker than athletic tape, like Moleskin, you can do that too, though it may gradually rub off and need to be redone, and you need to be careful to create a smooth surface, with no sharp edges, for your feet to rest on.

Most fitters do foot impressions when they fit custom boots. If Klingbeil uses all the information available from those impressions (I don't know), and if the fitter did the impressions right (mine didn't), the foot beds would have had the right shape and slant. Getting the foot beds right is most of what people mean by "custom boots", though there are other issues.

What a doctor can do is to determine whether you have health issues that comfort or a molded insole alone can not determine. If you don't need that, it would indeed be a waste of time and money. Of course there is a risk that, looking only for comfort, you might create a foot bed+insole shape that causes medical problems. I believe most people can feel problems with their feet, but a person who made shoes for diabetic feet told me that some people don't have enough sensation in their feet..

Some PT's and certified athletic trainers are also licensed and permitted to work on this sort of thing, if you don't feel confident to do it yourself. Perhaps rsk8d is, as suggested by the article this thread started with. Since she skates herself and works on skating related PT issues, she might be perfect.

[Isk8NYC]

Bill Klingbeil (the founder) originally made orthopedic shoes, so he had extensive training in fitting and adjustments from his apprenticeship and early employment. I remember him noticing (during my first measuring appt.) a small bone in my instep and remarking that my family was from a certain part of Europe, which is true. He had extensive knowledge of making custom footwear and correcting problems within the skates.

I'm not sure how much of that knowledge and training he was able to transfer to his successors. I will say that Don Klingbeil has been nothing but kind and helpful to me in dealing with my now-wacky feet and custom insoles. Then again, I'm from NY and have known him for years, so I give sarcasm as good as I take it, so he doesn't rattle my cage as much as someone off the street. Don customized the insole for my last pair of skates, replicating my custom orthotic perfectly. I've known people who struggled with skate fittings and Klingbeil spent hours trying to resolve the problem. Some were given refunds if their issue couldn't be resolved.

[rsk8d]

My thread has been hi-jacked....:P

[Isk8NYC]

Thank you for writing it. Thread drift is like rip tides at the beach: it can suck you under, but eventually, you'll surface. Preferably more alive than dead.

[rsk8d]

If the site is closing, I'll see if I can post the articles on goldenskate forums in the lutz corner. I'll check out FSU, but I don't think they'd let me.