What good are ISI Beta back crossovers?

[AgnesNitt]

I'm doing an edit to change 'crossovers' to 'Beta crossovers'. So skittle and drskate replied to my original badly written post. Me bad. Sorry

(Just a headsup--after last year's broken ankle and being off ice for a year I'm relearning everything, this month it's back crossovers)

Now that I have nailed choppy BETA back crossovers-both ways again-I'm wondering: "Why do I practice these things? :?? I'll start doing cross cuts and presumably never do them again."
Is it like learning backward stroking where you learn it, then that's it, you move on?
I've never seen anyone other than coaches and beginners do BETA back crossovers. What's the point of practicing them once you get out of Gamma (for the second time-sigh-)
Just a warning--nobody better say 'cause they're good for you'. My mother said that about liver and I've lived a perfectly happy life without it either.:roll:

[Skittl1321]

I've never seen anyone other than coaches and beginners do back crossovers.

I've had the opposite experience of you- I rarely see people skate forward once they learn to do back crossovers. I think elite skaters use back crossovers as transitions MUCH more than forward crossovers.

The most useful time for back crossovers for me is into a scratch spin (though I suppose you could do a 3-turn) or setting up for a jump like a waltz jump or salchow. Most people do loops out of back crossovers too- but I can't do that method.

I'd say back crossovers are probably my MOST used skating skill.

Sorry you hate them :(
But you're an adult. Don't do them if you don't want. Just realize you'll have a gap in your skating ability if you choose not to.

[AgnesNitt]

Well, I should qualify my definition of back crossovers. The ones I mean are the ones where you lift your outside foot over the inside foot. The ones where the foot slides in front of the other, is that the cutback? Is my grotesque ignorance leading me down the garden path?

[drskater]

AgnesNitt,

Oh dear, I believe you'll be deluged with responses to your post.

Whoa!!! Backward crossovers are essential to almost everything you do in figure skating: entries to jumps, spins, glides... There are backward crossovers of some kind on almost all USFS tests and are a key component in the dance patterns for more advanced ISI tests (freestyle 2 and above). You need to do them to build speed and move across the ice during a program, to turn in new directions while crossing the ice, and...they are damn fun!! They're so important that demonstrating good backward crossovers are something skaters do when they audition for ice shows.

"Big girl " (to quote my coach) bwd crossovers are nothing like what you learn in Beta. Advanced (i.e. correct) bwd crossovers are done on two inside edges with no scratchng toepicks. If they weren't essential they wouldn't be in MITF tests all the way up to senior!

[AgnesNitt]

AgnesNitt,

"Big girl " (to quote my coach) bwd crossovers are nothing like what you learn in Beta. Advanced (i.e. correct) bwd crossovers are done on two inside edges with no scratchng toepicks. If they weren't essential they wouldn't be in MITF tests all the way up to senior!

Yep, that's my question--I'm doing 'little girl' crossovers, I'm moving up to cutbacks, do I need to work on the Beta Crossovers? I can seem my sloppy language is going to get me into trouble.:bow:

[Kat12]

I dunno. i never learned "little girl" backward crossovers. To this day I'd probably fall down if I tried them. For the longest time I couldn't do backward crossovers, so one day I decided to try what you'd call "cutbacks" or what I've heard described as "progressives"--the outside foot doesn't leave the ice and cross over. THAT I could do, after a lot of practice.

I maybe shouldn't talk because my back crossovers suck, but I don't think that's because I didn't learn the "foot lifting" method first.

[Skittl1321]

Yep, that's my question--I'm doing 'little girl' crossovers, I'm moving up to cutbacks, do I need to work on the Beta Crossovers? I can seem my sloppy language is going to get me into trouble.:bow:

Ah- I see. I didn't ever take Beta, so I didn't learn that until I became an instructor. We teach USFS, but the "little girl" crossovers are actually a good exercise- in theory they help insure you are on the correct edges.

So yeah, once you get past Beta you don't need those anymore. But mastery of them is going to help you, because it shows you can hold the edges where they are supposed to be.


(Kat12- I don't think the back crossover where you don't pick up your foot can be correctly called a progressive. A back progressive looks nothing like a crossover - right now I kind of feel like I'm randomly kicking my feet- they are more runs. While forward progressives look exactly like a crossover, but with the foot gliding over on the ice. No idea why these things are so different and have the same name.)

[drskater]

Hmmmm. I suppose there is a use for the "pick up the foot" beginning bwd crossover with absolute beginners who are taking one group lesson a week and never plan to advance. Otherwise I see your point. Could you ask your instructor to work on the correct technique? If not, you should take some private lessons.

[falen]

I read this with interest.

DD can do "big girl" crossovers on the dominant side but those "little girl" crossovers only on the bad side. She never did the "little girl" ones on the dominant side. But had to resort to them on the bad side. Maybe those crossovers are just easier so they teach them first?

[jazzpants]

Oh, dear... I don't remember even learning little girl's back crossovers. I mean I learned back crossovers kinda thru osmosis (hanging with the other little girls) when I was very young and still managed to hang on to those when I came back on the ice many years later. I did, however, have to learn BIG GIRLS' back crossovers and those are really really hard to learn. (I'm still learning them in fact. I still ROYALLY SUCK at these in fact but not as bad as, say, 3 years ago...) But the good part is that if you learn the BIG GIRLS back crossovers, you will look more polish.

As for whether you need to learn back crossovers... well, I need those back crossovers though for transitioning to a jump or as a setup to a forward spin, if you are looking for a reason to have to learn back crossovers. But if you are concerned about learning the little girl's crossovers vs. the big girls one... hmmmm.. tough choice. :?? I know for me the little girl's forward crossovers are NOTHING like the big girls one and if anything it was confusing learning the BIG GIRLS' one for me. So I dunno... :??

[dbny]

(Kat12- I don't think the back crossover where you don't pick up your foot can be correctly called a progressive. A back progressive looks nothing like a crossover - right now I kind of feel like I'm randomly kicking my feet- they are more runs. While forward progressives look exactly like a crossover, but with the foot gliding over on the ice. No idea why these things are so different and have the same name.)

I believe they have the same name because "progressive" is short for "progressive run", which is a three step dance move. In freestyle, F progressives are really progressive style F crossovers, not progressive runs. I doubt you will ever see B progressives in freestyle except possibly as part of a footwork sequence.

[aussieskater]

"Big girl " (to quote my coach) bwd crossovers are nothing like what you learn in Beta. Advanced (i.e. correct) bwd crossovers are done on two inside edges with no scratchng toepicks.

Agree about the "little girl" vs "big girl" crossovers (love the descriptions BTW!). Down here, I've heard the "little girl" ones called "Russian" ones (not to be confused with Russian stroking). Not sure why?

As far as your description of "2 inside edges" goes, I wonder if there might be local variation in how these are taught, or maybe between freestyle (which I don't do) and ice dance (which I do)?

I've been taught that the foot on the inside of the circle must be on an outside edge - instead of "reaching in" with your inside foot, which must land on an inside edge to make the "reach in" work, you push away with the outside foot while your weight is mostly on your inside foot (which should stay on an outside edge).

Then the outside foot comes back and slides over the inside one, and as it does, you transfer your weight to that outside foot (which is still on an inside edge), and push under with the inside foot (which is still on an outside edge). Clear as mud, hey!! (Even I'm getting confuzzled with the "insides" and "outsides"...)

When my coach sees our freestylers "reach in" with their inside foot, he sighs. When he sees me doing it, he shouts. Loudly. :D

[fsk8r]

(Kat12- I don't think the back crossover where you don't pick up your foot can be correctly called a progressive. A back progressive looks nothing like a crossover - right now I kind of feel like I'm randomly kicking my feet- they are more runs. While forward progressives look exactly like a crossover, but with the foot gliding over on the ice. No idea why these things are so different and have the same name.)

The back progressive run is the random feet kicking thing and is so called because when you're doing it in a dance in waltz hold the backward skaters feet match the forward skaters in terms of extension.

I believe the forward progressive run is so called cos the outside foot (the one crossing over in my small brained view of it) progresses forward from the skating foot, whereas in a forward crossover it would be placed alongside the skating foot.
There is generally some logic in some of the funny names they've given things over the years.
I've still no idea what the difference is between a crossover and a crosscut unless it's a regional thing.

[aussieskater]

The back progressive run is the random feet kicking thing.

:D :D :D

(lengthen message)

[renatele]

I've been taught that the foot on the inside of the circle must be on an outside edge - instead of "reaching in" with your inside foot, which must land on an inside edge to make the "reach in" work, you push away with the outside foot while your weight is mostly on your inside foot (which should stay on an outside edge).

I do something in the middle - almost literally ... I both push with the outside foot, and reach in with the inside. Yes, the inside foot does go down at a slightly inside edge, however it does not stay on it at all - the weight shift to the inside foot puts it on BO edge right away - I don't ever think of inside edge there. If one stayed on inside edge, the underpush would be impossible.

BTW Charlie Butler teaches this technique in his "physics on ice" dvd - this style back crossovers gain the maximum power.

[Isk8NYC]

The "lift to cross" back crossovers in ISI Beta improves weight transfer, balance, edging and timing. I find a lot of low-level skaters will do the pick-up crossovers when I ask them to skate a circle of BXO's. I have to remind them to "keep it on the ice." I learned and taught them since I was an ISI skater, but many USFSA coaches (including myself) use them as at least a drill for correcting poor cutover crossovers.


Weight Transfer: With the cutover crossovers, it's very easy for the skater to keep their weight on both feet, which makes the pushes less effective. Lifting the outer foot before crossing and lifting (w/ underpush) the inner foot forces the skater to transfer their weight from inner to outer foot more quickly and effectively.

Balance: The cutover crossovers allow improper two-footing technique. Often, skaters to ride the toepicks on one foot while using the other foot to continue movement, which masks the poor technique since the skater doesn't slow down perceptively. With the Beta crossovers, the skater will scratch to a stop if they ride the toepick, so using this as a drill helps control toepick usage (which should be nil), as well as balancing between the back/inner foot and forward/outer foot. Back crossovers should be done with the skater "sitting" on the deep, bent knee of the inner leg. Many skaters lean forward and balance on the toepicks to draw the outer foot across.

What's also vital is that the skater learns to keep their feet uneven to do the c-cut push and lift. Many, many skaters bring their feet together before starting a back crossover push, which wastes energy since it has to come forward to cross in front anyway. The Beta BXO doesn't require as much unevenness, but it's a good learning drill.

Edges: In order to stay on a circle, the skater has to use the BO edge of the inner foot and check the shoulders. It's pretty difficult to square your upper body while putting the outer foot down on the inside edge. To effect that edging, the skater also learns to manage the check better. The inside c-cut is obviously on a BI edge and the Beta XO forces them to make that push effective since they have to lift it in front to cross. You'll see many rookies start the c-cut with feet next to each other, then use the inner foot to force the feet to cross. The Beta XO eliminates that and compartmentalizes the pushes.

Timing: The transfer of weight from side to side, front to back and of course foot to foot is more effective if it's done quickly, but to learn it properly, you have to do it s-l-o-w-l-y and feel the shifts. With the cutover crossovers, it's very easy for a skater to do powerless, but pretty, crossovers.


The only things Beta XO's don't enforce are the "grab and draw across" of the inner foot and the full c-cut push of the outer foot.

Grab and draw: DRskater said BXO's use two inside edges - the inner foot starts on an inside edge, then "rolls across" to the outside edge during the draw, before the underpush. That's correct, but it's a more advanced crossover, which I was taught by my German coach. I reach waaaay inside the circle with my inner foot, grabbing the ice with the inside edge, then drawing across to roll over to an outside edge for the underpush on the other side. I think of it as a "third push" on the crossovers - awesome for the power circles. This provides power and speed easily, although Renatele can kick my butt on the ice any day. The c-cut, as noted above, has to be a complete, fluid movement done ahead of the inner foot or it loses its ability to propel the skater backwards. Since the Beta XO doesn't keep that foot on the ice, the skater has to hold the inside edge and keep the knee angled to the inside as the outer foot crosses over. I teach my skaters to trace the upper part of a question mark. If all of the other components are good, those two skills are easy to pick up.


Take your time relearning these and I'm sure they'll be better than ever.

[Skittl1321]

Hmmmm. I suppose there is a use for the "pick up the foot" beginning bwd crossover with absolute beginners who are taking one group lesson a week and never plan to advance. Otherwise I see your point. Could you ask your instructor to work on the correct technique? If not, you should take some private lessons. (emphasis mine)

As far as ISI is concerned the "little girl" crossovers ARE the correct technique for beta. Doing "big girl" crossovers in an ISI competition will get you a "no element" score- the element is pick up your foot crossovers.

[Mrs Redboots]

One very good reason for teaching the lifting technique is to make sure you learn to have your weight in the right place, as I see ISk8NYC has already said. My old coach used to make me do them like that sometimes, just to check I was on the correct edges with my weight in the right place.

Meanwhile, I am at a loss to understand why you say you don't use backward stroking after you learn it! Are not backwards outside and inside edges a part of your Moves in the Field tests as they are a part of our Skating Moves? Very strange!

[Skate@Delaware]

One very good reason for teaching the lifting technique is to make sure you learn to have your weight in the right place, as I see ISk8NYC has already said. My old coach used to make me do them like that sometimes, just to check I was on the correct edges with my weight in the right place.

These "little girl" crossovers were a great re-learning tool when I had to learn technique after my back injury/surgery. Every so often I use them for myself and when I teach hubby.

[drskater]

Grab and draw: DRskater said BXO's use two inside edges - the inner foot starts on an inside edge, then "rolls across" to the outside edge during the draw, before the underpush. That's correct, but it's a more advanced crossover, which I was taught by my German coach. I reach waaaay inside the circle with my inner foot, grabbing the ice with the inside edge, then drawing across to roll over to an outside edge for the underpush on the other side. I think of it as a "third push" on the crossovers - awesome for the power circles. This provides power and speed easily, although Renatele can kick my butt on the ice any day. The c-cut, as noted above, has to be a complete, fluid movement done ahead of the inner foot or it loses its ability to propel the skater backwards. Since the Beta XO doesn't keep that foot on the ice, the skater has to hold the inside edge and keep the knee angled to the inside as the outer foot crosses over. I teach my skaters to trace the upper part of a question mark. If all of the other components are good, those two skills are easy to pick up.

Ah, you are so wise. Yes, I believe that this is what my coach wants. She insists on the "grab" with the inside edge--old coach taught me the outside edge which resulted in weight bobbling and scratching. I know this isn't "impossible" because my coach demonstrates the technique all the time (she is more edge conscious, I'm sure, due to her Golds in Figures and Dance as well as Freestyle) and because I've noticed it while watching the stars on tv.

As Skittl points out the Beta crossover is required by ISI--I think I remember reading this in the manual.

Ha ha--it's interesting how as people advance in skating they learn more and more about the basics!

[Ellyn]

I doubt you will ever see B progressives in freestyle except possibly as part of a footwork sequence.

Haha, I do them in my program at one point to gain speed into a jump combo, instead of multiple back crossovers, because they go so well with the music.

[renatele]

I reach waaaay inside the circle with my inner foot, grabbing the ice with the inside edge, then drawing across to roll over to an outside edge for the underpush on the other side. I think of it as a "third push" on the crossovers - awesome for the power circles. This provides power and speed easily, although Renatele can kick my butt on the ice any day.

I can kick your butt only on back crossovers, dear :D

[Isk8NYC]

I can kick your butt only on back crossovers, dear :D
And any kind of footwork, Ms. Gold/Intermediate Moves.

[kayskate]

When I got on the ice as an adult in my 20s, I had never done Beta xovers, or at least I did not remember doing them. I took LTS at about 7 yrs old. Maybe learned them then, but they did not stick. I did adv back xovers on roller skates as a teen. So my first coach tested me in the ISI skills and had to show me how to do the lift xovers. Never used them again until l started teaching.

In my exp, some kids have trouble relearning xovers as crosscuts. I have one student in particular who looks like a horse counting when she does little girl xovers. I am trying to work on this, but she is very immature and resents it.

In addition to teaching proper weight shift, etc. Little girl xovers are a stepwise progression to crosscuts. IMO, crosscuts are too complicated to teach at the lower levels where the skill is first introduced.

Kay

[GoSveta]

They teach crosscuts in L2S here. I did some ISI tests and when we got to back crossovers, I ended the test right there. There was no way I was going to put myself through that. I could do them to my strong side (since my edging/balance/weight shifting is so much stronger that way), but the other way? Lol... NO.

I'm sure I can do them right now, and after reading this thread, I think I will start doing them exclusively for a week or two to try to improve my deteriorating crossovers and improve my balance/edging (which needs some help).

When I learned crosscuts I learned them the "roll outside to inside" way. I don't think anyone taught it to me, it just seemed the most stable way for me to do them, because I can control the weight shift much easier while obtaining higher speeds with greater efficiency.

I changed coaches and she said it was wrong, so I'm basically back to square one on the crossovers, and it's quite frustrating. It doesn't help that I only do her version of BCO when I'm in a lesson, either.

But I will switch to Beta Crossovers a while. They sound like they can help in resolving some issues I'm having.

Thanks for all the advice in this thread!

[AgnesNitt]

Thanks to everyone for their lovely replies, especially thx to the moderator for kindly stepping in and fixing the Title. I'm going to keep track of this thread so I can come back to the big girl crossovers hints in the future.

....
Meanwhile, I am at a loss to understand why you say you don't use backward stroking after you learn it! Are not backwards outside and inside edges a part of your Moves in the Field tests as they are a part of our Skating Moves? Very strange!

Well, I was talking about 'little girl' backward stroking. This must be an ISI thing to introduce backwards skating. YOu do a c-cut backwards and put your free foot foward, but you're not skating obliquely (like in back crossovers) but directly backwards. Unless you have a really flexible neck you'll need a spotter. I can't do big girl back stroking yet.


Anyway everyone, these comments have been very interesting.