2010-2011 Scale of Values (SOV)

[harmony]

I was reviewing the updated SOV for the upcoming year and I noticed some significant changes. One, is that there is now an additional column for "BASE<" which lists the corresponding values. Second, there is an increase in the base value for an axel, which I'm sure will make a difference in adult skating. There are plenty of other little interesting changes (feel free to discuss!) but I did have a question on one of the "new" elements. Under the Step and Spiral Sequences, does anyone know what the "Choreo Step Seq." and "Choreo Spirals" are?

[Isk8NYC]

Reference:

2010-2011 Singles and Pairs Scale of Values (http://www.usfsa.org/Content/201011-SP-SOV.pdf) (from ISU Communication 1611, 5/6/10, PDF)

2010-11 Singles Level of Difficulty (http://www.usfsa.org/Content/201011%20Singles%20Levels%20of%20Difficulty.pdf) (from ISU Communication 1611, 5/6/10, PDF)

2010-11 Pairs Level of Difficulty (http://www.usfsa.org/Content/201011%20Pairs%20Levels%20of%20Difficulty.pdf) (from ISU Communication 1611, 5/6/10, PDF)

2010-11 Establishing GOE in Pairs Short Program and Free Skate (Includes Positive Aspects) (http://www.usfsa.org/Content/201011%20Establishing%20GOE%20in%20Pairs%20Short%2 0Program%20and%20Free%20Skate%20(Includes%20Positi ve%20Aspects).pdf) (from ISU Communication 1611, 5/6/10, PDF)



ISU Communication 1611 - Singles & Pairs - SOVs, GOE & Levels of Difficulty for 2010-11 (http://www.usfsa.org/Content/ISU%20Comm%201611.pdf) (5/6/10, PDF)

[Isk8NYC]

I'm not sure what those the "Choreo Step" and "Choreo Spiral" are - can't find any reference to that phrase or the abbreviation on the USFSA or ISU sites.

ETA: I know the terms are on the chart of the original post/ISU Communication 1611/other derivations, but the actual phrase and abbreviations are not listed in any OTHER documents on the ISU/USFSA sites. I'm surprised that it wasn't defined or explained anywhere else. Must be new; I assume it's a replacement for the Spiral and Step sequences, especially at the Junior level.

This is great for Adult skaters:


In Jump Combinations/Sequences Half-loop (or “Euler”) (landing backwards) will be a listed jump.
Consequently the units “half-loop + Salchow/Flip” and “any jump landed backwards outside + halfloop + Salchow/Flip” will become jump combinations of 2 or 3 jumps correspondingly. Half-loop
will have the Base Value and the GOE values of the single loop jump and will be identified by the
Technical Panel to the Judges and in the Protocols as “1Lo”.

[2loop2loop]

It seems that Base< is a new score for an underrotated jump - perhaps not quite so bad as getting the score of the jump with one less revolution and the -ve goe

[harmony]

I'm not sure what those the "Choreo Step" and "Choreo Spiral" are - can't find any reference to that phrase or the abbreviation on the USFSA or ISU sites.
:

It's at the bottom of page 2 (numbered page 3) on your first link...

Ughhh, the half loop; I'm so not a fan of that jump. And I don't like that it gets the same amount of points as a loop jump. Oh well...

[RachelSk8er]

Crap, this means I'll have to change two of the jumps in my program (assuming this "half loop is now a jump" rule carries over to 6.0).

I had a lutz/loop/toe as my 3 jump combo, a flip/half loop/sal as a 2 jump sequence, and in playing around last week just changed my solo flip to a half loop/flip to give it a difficult entry. Guess 2 of those have to come out now :frus:

So a wally still isn't a jump? But a half loop is, that doesn't make sense. If a half loop is a jump, a wally should be a jump, too.

This does make life easier for skaters under IJS who tend to toe-waltz when they tack a toe loop at the end of the sequence, and therefore don't get it called. Now they can do a half loop-sal and have it be a combo, not a sequence.

[sk8er1964]

HisWeirness on FSUniverse has done an excellent summary of the changes. http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=73440

I am thrilled with these changes. No more having to pull your leg up on spirals. No more spins with identical features. The axel getting higher points. It's all good to me.

I asked in the linked thread what a choreo spiral is. Apparently the spiral sequence no longer has features (yay) and is worth 2.0. It can consist of two 3 second spirals or one 6 second spiral (I think - going my memory here).

[doubletoe]

This does make life easier for skaters under IJS who tend to toe-waltz when they tack a toe loop at the end of the sequence, and therefore don't get it called. Now they can do a half loop-sal and have it be a combo, not a sequence.
That's an excellent observation!

I wish I could be as happy about the new "choreo SpSq" as Sk8r1964, but after spending the last 5 years working my butt off for a level 4 spiral sequence each year, this drastic rule change just makes me :frus::frus::frus:

It's nice that the axel is worth more, but the 2S is worth more by the same number of points, so there is only a point advantage if you are skating against other skaters with no axel or 2S.

[sk8er1964]

I wish I could be as happy about the new "choreo SpSq" as Sk8r1964, but after spending the last 5 years working my butt off for a level 4 spiral sequence each year, this drastic rule change just makes me :frus::frus::frus:

(((doubletoe))) I do feel your pain - but I am so glad I may no longer have to feel mine!

It's nice that the axel is worth more, but the 2S is worth more by the same number of points, so there is only a point advantage if you are skating against other skaters with no axel or 2S.

The reason I am so glad they did this is because I didn't really like the trend of skaters at our level ditching the axel and sticking to easier jumps in order to play it safe. This way, they can still do this, but the point difference between the lutz and an axel or double may now make it worth it.

[techskater]

I heartily agree with skater1964 with regard to spirals, axels, and double jumps. I have a hard time with skaters at the Gold level ditching Axels for higher level spiral sequences because then what is the difference between Silver and Gold?

The "base <" is a 70% value for a jump that is between 1/4 and 1/2 cheat according to the tech panel.

[RachelSk8er]

So it's now even easier to get a spiral sequence, but (correct me if I'm wrong), but it looks like nothing has changed with regard to making step sequences easier to get credit for. If that's the case, it totally blows. Keeping the "spiral or step sequence" requirement that we have in adult levels seems pointless, because who in their right mind will risk a step sequence now if they're given the choice? Maybe adult gold+ should require both? I'd love to see a SS requirement, I think that's much more of an equalizer than a spiral sequence or the choice between the two. There is certainly plenty of time for both of those. My silver program has both a 3 sec spiral-3 sec spiral and a SS that covers 3/4 of the ice surface (could have time for full length but I go into my flip from my SS so I need to leave some room). If I can fit that in a silver program, there is no reason why both a SS and spiral can't be fit in gold or higher.

[doubletoe]

Techskater - I don't see anyone ditching axels for spiral sequences in Gold; it's skaters ditching axels for easier jumps. And I agree with Sk8r1964 that the increased value of the axel, 2S and 2T will be a well-earned reward for those Gold skaters who go for them rather than playing it safe.

RachelSk8r - It is not really easier to get points for a spiral sequence. Before, all you had to do was 2 spirals for 3 seconds each and you got 1.8 base value for level 1. Now that base value is 2.0 for basically the same thing, but it's harder to get the same point value you could have gotten for a level 3 or 4 spiral sequence.

As for the SpSq vs StSq in Adult Gold and Masters, I'm just guessing that if they continue to offer the option of one or the other, they will level the playing field by treating the step sequence as the "choreo step sequence" with the same flat base value as the spiral sequence. It seems like it would be the simplest solution.

[RachelSk8er]

RachelSk8r - It is not really easier to get points for a spiral sequence. Before, all you had to do was 2 spirals for 3 seconds each and you got 1.8 base value for level 1. Now that base value is 2.0 for basically the same thing, but it's harder to get the same point value you could have gotten for a level 3 or 4 spiral sequence.



It is harder to get a step sequence called than a spiral sequence. Given the choice, most ladies were going for the spiral sequence for that reason--even if your sprials were not incredible feats of flexibility, you could still get a level 2 without too much difficulty. If that weren't the case, you'd see numbers of people attempting one vs. the other be more equal. Only a few adults are getting level 3 steps, more are able to get 3 or 4 spirals called (about 3 ladies did it). In champ gold ladies--10 did spiral sequences (a few got called 3s, some 2s, some 1s). Only 2 did step sequences (Emily got a 3 and Andrea got a 1). Champ int/novice ladies--8 spiral sequences, 4 step sequences. Champ jr/sr ladies balanced out a little more with 8 spiral sequences and 5 step sequences.

[daisies]

It is harder to get a step sequence called than a spiral sequence.
It's harder to get a high-level step sequence called, yes, but not a step sequence. You can just do a bunch of three-turns and mohawks down the ice, and it's called level 1. doubletoe's point is that now you can just do the bare minimum for each and it fulfills "choreo." And that would even the playing field.

because who in their right mind will risk a step sequence now if they're given the choice?
Uh, me? And others like me who physically can't do spirals due to back or other injuries/issues?

[sk8er1964]

Uh, me? And others like me who physically can't do spirals due to back or other injuries/issues?

Which, to my mind, put you in a disadvantage situation from the git-go.

The average gold skater can probably do a level 2 spiral sequence without too much difficulty, but this same average gold skater would have much more difficulty getting a level 2 step sequence, just because of the way the rules are written. That's one of the reasons I always thought the sprial sequences received far too high of a value for our level. I could certainly see the logic at the senior level, where both were required, but I thought it disadvantaged skaters at our level.

I actually like the idea of using the choreo points for both spirals and step sequences so that they were equal. I would love to see more footwork return to adult skating - we work so darn hard on those moves we need to flaunt them! Then, the reward would be in performing the chosen sequence well - in the GOE's.

[techskater]

Techskater - I don't see anyone ditching axels for spiral sequences in Gold; it's skaters ditching axels for easier jumps. And I agree with Sk8r1964 that the increased value of the axel, 2S and 2T will be a well-earned reward for those Gold skaters who go for them rather than playing it safe.

Let me correct that - I meant that a spiral sequence at L3/4 has been receiving 25-35% of the entire technical element score for many Gold Ladies so it was in their best interest to leave out an Axel that is shaky at best) and could have resulted in a fall or a lost jump pass due to a 1A <). They have spent time working to get an addition 0.5-1 point for their spiral sequence which is equivalent (or more) to the differential between the easier jump they are attempting (like a Salchow) and doing an Axel.

My point is that if we are going to have a high number of Gold skaters leaving out Axels (there were several in different open Gold groups who did well without attempting one), then what is the difference between the current landscape of highly competitive Silvers who can't pass the Gold FS test because they can't do an (even close!) Axel and some Golds who aren't attempting it competitively? The new SOV makes it in the best interest of a skater who's Axel may be a little short rotation under pressure to give it a shot, which I like.

[sk8er1964]

My point is that if we are going to have a high number of Gold skaters leaving out Axels (there were several in different open Gold groups who did well without attempting one), then what is the difference between the current landscape of highly competitive Silvers who can't pass the Gold FS test because they can't do an (even close!) Axel and some Golds who aren't attempting it competitively? The new SOV makes it in the best interest of a skater who's Axel may be a little short rotation under pressure to give it a shot, which I like.

I agree.

..............

[Debbie S]

How would the new spiral rule affect the (U.S.) Novice level? Right now, skaters have the option of doing a spiral or step sequence and most ladies are doing a spiral sequence b/c it's easier to get Level 4. I guess now everyone will do a step sequence b/c that option is worth more points? Or is there no longer an option and will everyone have to do steps (like in Juv and Int)?

[daisies]

Which, to my mind, put you in a disadvantage situation from the git-go.
To my mind, it did as well. So I just did everything I could to try to get points in other areas. (Which wasn't easy, since my back keeps me from doing doubles, too ... but we do what we can with what we have!)

[GoSveta]

RE Half Loop:

It will be also subject for scrutiny, so people who do half loops that basically land forward and spin on the toe pick will either get it downgraded, or have a low GOE on that jump in the sequence.

[sk8tmum]

Spiral changes - will enrage a number of little girls who have been focussing on getting their legs pulled above their heads in Y-spirals and the like; but, perhaps, will also cut down on the number of little girls I've seen with hip injuries from chasing extreme spiral positions. Will also change the playing field at the lower levels: a L4 Spiral sequence used to rack up enough points to more than make up for missing jump content. Will also make the points Year over Year relatively incomparable, as with spirals for girls being mandatory in short programs (IIRC) - they are now automatically and by default prevented from reaching the same score for the same move.

All double jumps (including the 2A) are worth more now; interesting. Messes up my one kid who has huge beautiful singles but struggles with landing doubles. Same sort of thing with triples. However, the "cheat" category may help her out too ... hmmm ...

Cheated singles will now get a value, instead of being called as zero: very interesting! (although, the funniest thing I saw last year was when they created a SOV for our test track skaters who were using CPC for the first time, and they added a score for a cheated waltz jump :lol:)

Need for different spin features: will reduce the one-note skaters and encourage more variety. Will also change the playing field for the skaters in terms of making it more difficult to get multiple L4 spins when they do one or two things "very well" but not much else.

Weird anomaly, any idea why: the 1A is worth more, the 2A is worth less - ? Or am I seeing things? Went from 3.5 to 3.3 ????

Points for the half-loop: will create problems where 3-jump combos/sequences are not permitted and the coach has been using a half-loop as a connector.

[RachelSk8er]

Spiral changes - will enrage a number of little girls who have been focussing on getting their legs pulled above their heads in Y-spirals and the like; but, perhaps, will also cut down on the number of little girls I've seen with hip injuries from chasing extreme spiral positions.

Yeah, this is one thing I'm glad about. I see these poor little girls at my rink who do not naturally have the flexibility pulling muscles left and right or winding up with back injuries trying to hit positions. Although with the jumps they're also doing at younger and younger ages, I don't know if they're any better off because their hips/knees are taking such a pounding. I'm hearing of a lot more kids coming down with stress fractures and foot issues than in the past.

When I was a kid competing in the early 90s, you never did any of these spirals unless you naturally already had the flexibility. The most any of us ever did were the Kerrigan spirals, those were all the rage back then (grabbing and holding the knee). Y-spirals were basically unheard of or if you could, you didn't do them because they're just so unattractive. And you only did a catch foot spiral (same side arm grabbing the blade) if you weren't really flexible to try and hide that fact.

I haven't looked at potential synchro changes (not skating or coaching has me out of the synchro loop these days), but IJS has put a pretty big emphasis of flexibility there, too, and a lot of these skaters are getting all sorts of injuries from trying to get these positions, turning out spread eagles from their knees because they can't do it from the hips, etc.

[Stormy]

I haven't looked at potential synchro changes (not skating or coaching has me out of the synchro loop these days), but IJS has put a pretty big emphasis of flexibility there, too, and a lot of these skaters are getting all sorts of injuries from trying to get these positions, turning out spread eagles from their knees because they can't do it from the hips, etc.

I'm concerned there will be a trickle down effect to the lower and open levels with the increasing demand on flexibility in Junior and Senior synchro. 135 spirals like http://www.teamberlin-1.de/img/live/n2167.jpg and http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Haydenettes_holding_high_kicks_in_sync_.jpg (that one's not even that extreme either) and spread eagles are so commonplace in those two levels now, even in my Open Juvenile level I saw a few teams with kids trying some extreme positions in their moves in isolation. It was so unattractive and the coach should have known better than to even have the kids try it.

[harmony]

I still don't understand the difference between a choreo step sequence and, let's say, a level 1 step sequence.

I'm not a fan of the new spiral sequence rules. As a person who still has some flexibility (although strength is more of my issue - you can pull my leg up high, but I have a difficult time holding it there) this change is no fun. So now as long as you get your leg at hip height and hold it for 3 seconds, you're done. Do you even have to do more than 1 position? Hold it longer than 3 seconds?

At the same time, I do understand the craziness that occured last year with all of the different spiral positions. Some were pretty, some were just...well...not so pretty. I am curious about the rationale for the change though, because if it was to help prevent injury, there's other ways to do that.

[RachelSk8er]

I still don't understand the difference between a choreo step sequence and, let's say, a level 1 step sequence.



Yeah, wouldn't it basically get rid of a level 1 SS? Because the way I understand it, you can essentially do a step sequence with whatever steps you want and get 2.0 base value for it if it doesn't fit any of the higher level step sequences, whereas before a level 1 was what, 1.8? (And are they then mainly looking at the choreography and music interpretation and caring less about what steps your feet are doing and whether your counters are actually counters, your rockers are actually rockers, etc?)

Or does a choreo step sequence perhaps a way to give credit for a second step sequence in the program that was previously viewed just as a transition, and the regular step sequence levels still apply for the actual step sequence that is required (where applicable)?

[Ellyn]

These rules in ISU communication 1611 are written for junior and senior competition.

We don't know yet how USFS will adjust SP and well-balance program requirements for juvenile through novice and adult gold and masters. They may well leave things as is for 2010-11 and save significant changes for 2011-12.

[Stormy]

These rules in ISU communication 1611 are written for junior and senior competition.

We don't know yet how USFS will adjust SP and well-balance program requirements for juvenile through novice and adult gold and masters. They may well leave things as is for 2010-11 and save significant changes for 2011-12.

Ah! Ok, that's what I was wondering if this affects everything down to the lower and adult levels.

[sk8er1964]

These rules in ISU communication 1611 are written for junior and senior competition.

We don't know yet how USFS will adjust SP and well-balance program requirements for juvenile through novice and adult gold and masters. They may well leave things as is for 2010-11 and save significant changes for 2011-12.

That would surprise me if they did. Haven't they always implemented IJS changes right away in the past? The only area that would be foggy for the lower/adult levels would be the choreo spirals/choreo footwork - the rest is pretty straight forward - and they can address that in the well balanced requirements.

[falen]

Spiral changes - will enrage a number of little girls who have been focussing on getting their legs pulled above their heads in Y-spirals and the like; .



That's funny. Where does the Biellman spiral stand with this? As a spectator, that is my favorite. Especially in a spin, they look like a fancy decorated wine glass against the ice.

[doubletoe]

Yeah, this is one thing I'm glad about. I see these poor little girls at my rink who do not naturally have the flexibility pulling muscles left and right or winding up with back injuries trying to hit positions. Although with the jumps they're also doing at younger and younger ages, I don't know if they're any better off because their hips/knees are taking such a pounding. I'm hearing of a lot more kids coming down with stress fractures and foot issues than in the past.

When I was a kid competing in the early 90s, you never did any of these spirals unless you naturally already had the flexibility. The most any of us ever did were the Kerrigan spirals, those were all the rage back then (grabbing and holding the knee). Y-spirals were basically unheard of or if you could, you didn't do them because they're just so unattractive. And you only did a catch foot spiral (same side arm grabbing the blade) if you weren't really flexible to try and hide that fact.

I haven't looked at potential synchro changes (not skating or coaching has me out of the synchro loop these days), but IJS has put a pretty big emphasis of flexibility there, too, and a lot of these skaters are getting all sorts of injuries from trying to get these positions, turning out spread eagles from their knees because they can't do it from the hips, etc.

Even if the kids stop doing Y spirals and catch foot spirals (which do not even need to be in an actual Biellmann position to count), they'll still be working on Y spins, I spins, catch foot camels, pancakes, cannonballs, haircutter spins and Biellmann spins. In fact, skaters will probably be forcing themselves into even more difficult positions just to have more spin features they can use (now that each difficult variation will only count once per program).

I have always wondered about those spread eagles in synchro, too! Forcing spread eagles from closed hips is bad news. :(

[RachelSk8er]

I have always wondered about those spread eagles in synchro, too! Forcing spread eagles from closed hips is bad news. :(

And if you want to be on one of the top junior or senior teams in the country, you really have no choice. Spread eagles are usually required for tryouts.

[techskater]

I still don't understand the difference between a choreo step sequence and, let's say, a level 1 step sequence.

The rule as written is for the Jr and Sr levels - the choreo step sequence/spiral sequence is for the spiral sequence in ladies (to improve on the complaint that all L4 spiral sequences look alike) as an all or nothing BV with possible GOEs and the same goes for the step sequence which is for the men for the second required step sequence in their program. I hope that the adult rules are changed to use the choreo step/spiral sequence to make it a more even playing field.

[sk8er1964]

I hope that the adult rules are changed to use the choreo step/spiral sequence to make it a more even playing field.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record -- me too!

[techskater]

I don't mind since there are some committee members here who if we keep seconding each other might think there are more of us!!

[harmony]

I hope that the adult rules are changed to use the choreo step/spiral sequence to make it a more even playing field.

I'm not sure how that would even the playing field (I, personally, don't think that it would). I am curious though about how you think it would. Would you mind elaborating?

[tazsk8s]

That's funny. Where does the Biellman spiral stand with this? As a spectator, that is my favorite. Especially in a spin, they look like a fancy decorated wine glass against the ice.

When it's done very well, I agree.

Unfortunately there are SO few Biellman's (spins OR spirals) out there that are worth looking at. Ditto most of the catch-foot variations. Most of the ones I see aren't even close to attractive, and it's painfully obvious that no amount of stretching or flexibility work is ever going to make it attractive on that particular skater...but they continue to work on sticking their right toepick in their left ear anyway (thanks to whomever started that phrase) because it's difficult and it racks up points. What really hurts is seeing the skate school group lesson kids learning to grab their blades on a spiral before they can even remotely do a regular one.

If the rule changes cut down on the gratuitous and ugly blade grabbing, I'm all for them.

[Isk8NYC]

I had a student tell me that she taught herself a Haircutter spin. Not even recognizable and her basic spin entry is awful, not for lack of lessons and corrections, but because she's so focused on learning new tricks that she's screwing up over and over, developing some really bad habits.

I'm glad the Victory Spirals are being back-burnered. Too many skaters "warm them up" before they actually warm up, then complain that their hip hurts when you're trying to teach spins. Same thing with the outside butt spreadeagles. I'd rather see the skater focus on proper warmups, stretching, and hip position than doing those awful mooning spreadeagles.

[rlichtefeld]

When it's done very well, I agree.

Unfortunately there are SO few Biellman's (spins OR spirals) out there that are worth looking at. Ditto most of the catch-foot variations. Most of the ones I see aren't even close to attractive, and it's painfully obvious that no amount of stretching or flexibility work is ever going to make it attractive on that particular skater...but they continue to work on sticking their right toepick in their left ear anyway (thanks to whomever started that phrase) because it's difficult and it racks up points. What really hurts is seeing the skate school group lesson kids learning to grab their blades on a spiral before they can even remotely do a regular one.

If the rule changes cut down on the gratuitous and ugly blade grabbing, I'm all for them.

Make sure and check out Debi Thomas' (yes that Debi Thomas) Facebook page about this: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=420734&id=713070789#!/group.php?gid=310730951875

Rob

[RachelSk8er]

I had a student tell me that she taught herself a Haircutter spin. Not even recognizable and her basic spin entry is awful, not for lack of lessons and corrections, but because she's so focused on learning new tricks that she's screwing up over and over, developing some really bad habits.

I'm glad the Victory Spirals are being back-burnered. Too many skaters "warm them up" before they actually warm up, then complain that their hip hurts when you're trying to teach spins. Same thing with the outside butt spreadeagles. I'd rather see the skater focus on proper warmups, stretching, and hip position than doing those awful mooning spreadeagles.

There is a skater at my rink who has such a gorgeous layback, I almost always stop and watch when she does it. Then cringe when she switches position and grabs her blade, it ruins the whole thing.

I wish there were some changes to spins to get rid of positions that are downright awful. The one I hate the most is the one I refer to as the Butt Spin. Stephane Lambiel started it (bend over at the waist and grab your skates with your butt just sticking in the air). I always thought it was rather stupid, but when it was just the men doing it, it wasn't too bad. But now ladies are starting to do it and it is just plain unattractive.

[sk8tmum]

Our physio has a few words to say about the extreme spiral positions (never heard of a Victory spiral!) and the haircutters, Bielmanns, etc, particularly on the pre-adolescent/early adolescent body, and particularly when they are not "developed" but instead are manhandled into existence. NO reputable ballet teacher or dance teacher would simply expect a student to walk in, haul a foot above their head without training the position and the flexibility, and would probably (hopefully) not allow them to practice a position without appropriate direction ... but I see coaches allowing/encouraging/ignoring the student who is pulling their body in various extreme positions! And also parents ... who encourage it ...

I wish the commentators in TV would emphasize the need for training, flexibility etc needed for some of the positions the elite skaters obtain, so that kids who would never expect to do, say, a triple axel without appropriate coaching wouldn't decide to "teach" themselves extreme spin etc positions.

My rant is done.

(P.S., the blood stains on the skates when they slice their hands open on the catch-foot ... also not pretty ... I know one skater's skates who are stained yellow from blood, and who regularly finishes the program with sliced open hands ... yes, there are protectors you can put on the blades, but so few use them! They practice in gloves, then take them off in competition and cut themselves to ribbons).

[sk8tmum]

There is a skater at my rink who has such a gorgeous layback, I almost always stop and watch when she does it. Then cringe when she switches position and grabs her blade, it ruins the whole thing.

I wish there were some changes to spins to get rid of positions that are downright awful. The one I hate the most is the one I refer to as the Butt Spin. Stephane Lambiel started it (bend over at the waist and grab your skates with your butt just sticking in the air). Ladies are starting to do it and it is just plain unattractive.

Wasn't Emmanuel Sandhu the King of the A-frame (Butt spin)? Fortunately, I guess ISU also didn't like it, they called it an upright spin which made it worth less points than it might have been! My kid REFUSES to do it, and my coach REFUSES to coach it ... it's hideous ...

[RachelSk8er]

Wasn't the King of the A-frame (Butt spin)? Fortunately, I guess ISU also didn't like it, they called it an upright spin which made it worth less points than it might have been! My kid REFUSES to do it, and my coach REFUSES to coach it ... it's hideous ...

I don't know, I remember Stephane Lambiel doing it a lot. I had a hard time watching Emanuel skate, especially when I got a large TV with HD...his pants were always tight to the point of vulgar right there in my living room.

[harmony]

I think the main point here is that there needs to be greater education about the value of warming up and stretching properly. One can gain increased flexibility without causing bodily harm. I’ve seen some really pretty haircutters and some beautiful spirals, when done properly. Just because some skaters are going and yanking their foot above their head without proper knowledge of what they’re really doing, doesn’t mean that the spiral features should be done away with. Perhaps there could be a rule about it being unsupported, which would eliminate skaters forcing their legs into positions that their body isn’t ready for. Same could go for spins.

[sk8er1964]

Just because some skaters are going and yanking their foot above their head without proper knowledge of what they’re really doing, doesn’t mean that the spiral features should be done away with.

I disagree. I think it is the responsibility of the governing organizations to ensure, as much as possible, the safe development of their youth skaters. Setting rules that encourage young skaters to do things that can cause lifetime inuries (beyond those inherent in the sport itself, such as jumps) defeats that purpose - especially when there is no compelling reason to keep those rules.

[harmony]

Perhaps that particular type of feature could be eliminated - I would be for that! Doing away with _all_ features though seems a bit rash.

For example, holding a spiral position (unsupported) for 6 seconds - good. Holding for 3 seconds, then change of edge, and then another 3 seconds - good. Spirals on different feet - good. Spirals where you rap your leg around your neck - not so good. :) I would just like to see _some_ type of features.

[Ellyn]

Wasn't Emmanuel Sandhu the King of the A-frame (Butt spin)? Fortunately, I guess ISU also didn't like it, they called it an upright spin which made it worth less points than it might have been!

Well, it is a difficult variation of upright, unless the attempt is not even close.

Nathalie Krieg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnoRJ8gZpZU) (see combo spin at 2:20) was the first skater I saw this position from, not necessarily the first ever to perform it. Lambiel probably would have witnessed the end of her competitive career for Switzerland while he was a little boy at the beginning of his.

[icedancer2]

For a little levity on the blade-grabbing issue, take a look at Debi Thomas' Wanda demonstrating lovely art of blade-grabbing at every turn!! Love it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtwVPgenweM

[RachelSk8er]

Perhaps that particular type of feature could be eliminated - I would be for that! Doing away with _all_ features though seems a bit rash.

For example, holding a spiral position (unsupported) for 6 seconds - good. Holding for 3 seconds, then change of edge, and then another 3 seconds - good. Spirals on different feet - good. Spirals where you rap your leg around your neck - not so good. :) I would just like to see _some_ type of features.

And if you do have the flexibility in those 6 seconds (or 3+3) to do a beautiful, properly-executed Bielmann or some other variation of a spiral position, then by all means, do it. But it shouldn't be worth more in terms of a base value nor a GOE awarded by the judges than a regular old spiral with nice extension that can be just as beautifully executed. Somewhere along the way that just became less cool to do. And holding your leg up with nice height on deep edges is harder than grabbing your blade and yanking your leg up, which is why far less skaters did it until IJS. So I'm also not sure where the notion that it was somehow better (that influenced the emphasis on it in judging) came from.

[daisies]

Perhaps that particular type of feature could be eliminated - I would be for that! Doing away with _all_ features though seems a bit rash.

For example, holding a spiral position (unsupported) for 6 seconds - good. Holding for 3 seconds, then change of edge, and then another 3 seconds - good. Spirals on different feet - good. Spirals where you rap your leg around your neck - not so good. :) I would just like to see _some_ type of features.
What you just described as "good" fulfills the requirements for the choreo spirals. It would even the playing field because both the choreo steps and choreo spirals are worth 2 points. Then you'd either get more or less based on GOE. That does not mean the skater can't grab their blade, but if they do, and it sucks, they'll theoretically get fewer points. If they do, and it's awesome, they'll get more ... all based on GOE. When it was levels, a level 4 spiral sequence was worth 3.4 and was much easier to get (for those who could do spirals) than even a level 2 step sequence, which is worth 2.3, regardless of how crappy the spiral positions were.

I don't mind since there are some committee members here who if we keep seconding each other might think there are more of us!!
Because we can't clearly see it's coming from the same screennames? LOL!

My guess -- and this is only a guess -- is that adults will adopt whatever system novice adopts. Novice is the only other level that allows the skater to choose between steps and spirals. It's not up to just the Adult Skating Committee, btw. Other committees (Competitions, etc.) are involved as well.

[harmony]

So all of this discussion partially brings me back to my original question of why can you get different levels on a step sequence and not a spiral sequence? If it's only choreo. step and choreo spiral, no levels available to either, then that's fine. But if a skater can get levels on a step seq and not a spiral seq then I have an issue...and that would bring me to the rest of my reply which I'm not posting yet, because it's fairly lengthy and not necessary if you can't get levels on step and spiral sequences anymore.

[sk8er1964]

So all of this discussion partially brings me back to my original question of why can you get different levels on a step sequence and not a spiral sequence? If it's only choreo. step and choreo spiral, no levels available to either, then that's fine. But if a skater can get levels on a step seq and not a spiral seq then I have an issue...and that would bring me to the rest of my reply which I'm not posting yet, because it's fairly lengthy and not necessary if you can't get levels on step and spiral sequences anymore.

The communiciton only deals with junior and senior, and the purpose of the choreo step sequence is so that in their long program the senior men can do one step sequence for levels, and one for choreography. We don't know yet what US Figure Skating is going to do with us, so any argument on that is moot at this time.

I hope (and I believe from reading this thread that some others do as well) that they will change the adult well balanced requirements to one choreo step or one choreo spiral, which would make things even because they're both worth 2 points.

[daisies]

SIf it's only choreo. step and choreo spiral, no levels available to either, then that's fine. But if a skater can get levels on a step seq and not a spiral seq then I have an issue...
If that's the way it ends up, it would come down to strategy and what the skater is capable of. Do you go for the guaranteed BV of 2.0 with spirals, or do you go for level 2 or higher steps? It's a risk, just like going for a jump that you're not sure you'll land. But, like landing the jump, there is reward in the risk.

The other possibility is changing the WBP for novice and adults to require a step sequence and making spirals a transitional element across the board. That way, choreo anything (steps or spirals) will only be part of the Junior and Senior long programs, which seems to be the intent of the ISU anyway. (I kinda wonder if this choreo thing isn't just a temporary "plug" for WBP changes coming down the pipe, wherein spirals will no longer be an element at all.)

This is all just my personal opinion and does not reflect the ASC.

[doubletoe]

When it was levels, a level 4 spiral sequence was worth 3.4 and was much easier to get (for those who could do spirals) than even a level 2 step sequence, which is worth 2.3, regardless of how crappy the spiral positions were.

That may have been true a few years ago, but ISU rule changes have made it tougher to get SpSq levels each year, and it has been working. I just looked through the A.N. scoresheets and there were 1/3 as many SpSq4's called for singles skaters at AN 2010 compared to AN 2008 (7 in 2010 vs. 21 in 2008). Incidentally, 3 of the 7 SpSq4's this year were in the Championship Int/Nov Ladies event.

But since the ISU has now taken away the levels for spiral sequences, I think the fairest thing to do would be to give the 2.0 base value to both the adult step sequences and spiral sequences so that skaters will choose whichever one plays to their strengths and fits the music. Hopefully, judges will take into account the difficulty of each step sequence when awarding GOE, just as I hope they will reward more difficult spiral sequences with GOE.

Hopefully, adult skaters will be given enough notice if USFSA decides to require step sequences for us, since many adult skaters keep their programs for at least 2 seasons and cannot just replace a spiral sequence with a step sequence and expect it to fit the music.

[daisies]

That may have been true a few years ago, but ISU rule changes have made it tougher to get SpSq levels each year, and it has been working. I just looked through the A.N. scoresheets and there were 1/3 as many SpSq4's called for singles skaters at AN 2010 compared to AN 2008 (7 in 2010 vs. 21 in 2008). Incidentally, 3 of the 7 SpSq4's this year were in the Championship Int/Nov Ladies event.
It being tougher to get a level 4 spiral doesn't mean it isn't still easier to get that than a level 2 step. And they just made it harder to get a level 2 step by adding to the number of turns that are required for variety.

But since the ISU has now taken away the levels for spiral sequences, I think the fairest thing to do would be to give the 2.0 base value to both the adult step sequences and spiral sequences so that skaters will choose whichever one plays to their strengths and fits the music.
That is the fairest thing on the surface, but it doesn't necessarily match up to the direction the sport is going. If spirals are being de-emphasized, they may come out of the element arsenal entirely. We'll just have to wait and see what happens!

[RachelSk8er]

I'm all for step sequences just because everyone can or should be able to do them, while there are skaters who are physically limited when it comes to spirals for various reasons (i.e. Daisies). We all have to take MIF tests to get to our respective freestyle levels. Moves tests emphasize turns and doing them correctly. Yes, there are also spirals on moves tests, but they are basic spiral positions judged on having good extension and correct edges--there is no emphasis on being able to do crazy positions. You can pass every spiral pattern, including the ones currently on novice and senior, with spirals that are hip height or just slightly higher as long as you have good extension, speed and flow. However, you cannot, or at least should not pass moves patterns with turns that are not done correctly at any level (if your 3 turns are shaky, if there are incorrect entry or exit edges on more complex turns like brackets, counters, rockers, if your choctaws are flat or closer to mohawks, etc). If we're going to be required to develop and demonstrate these skills to take the freestyle tests that allow us to compete at a particular level, we should be required to use them in our freestyle programs.

Some people may feel that it's unfair to require a step sequence at a level like gold where you'll have skaters with anywhere from gold to senior MIF and dance tests that also play a factor in ability to do footwork, but that's really no different than now, because it's already being reflected in the PCS (raw skating ability obviously has an influence on skating skills, choreography, transitions, performance/execution, everything).

[techskater]

I'm not sure how that would even the playing field (I, personally, don't think that it would). I am curious though about how you think it would. Would you mind elaborating?

I am saying that if they use the choreographic points for each (2.0) and award GOE based on complexity or whatever the standard it is to get GOE, then it evens the playing field. A GOOD level 1 step sequence take a lot more effort (and time in a program) than a moderately OK level 3 spiral sequence and the point differential is pretty big. If you look at levels that were given at ANs, there were very few step sequences awarded higher than L1

[techskater]

Because we can't clearly see it's coming from the same screennames? LOL!


Just being silly here. LOL! Thinking squeaky wheel syndrome, though!

[manleywoman]

A GOOD level 1 step sequence take a lot more effort (and time in a program) than a moderately OK level 3 spiral sequence and the point differential is pretty big.
This. Exactly.

[doubletoe]

I am saying that if they use the choreographic points for each (2.0) and award GOE based on complexity or whatever the standard it is to get GOE, then it evens the playing field.

I totally agree. Right now, none of the GOE guidelines for step or spiral sequences make any mention of technical difficulty, so I would like to see that included somehow for both the choreo step and spiral sequences.

I'm just wondering if it won't be trickier to change the GOE guidelines for the choreo step than it will for the spirals, since the only step sequence not given levels under the new ISU rules is the 2nd step sequence in the men's program. The ISU may have no incentive to incorporate difficulty into the step sequence GOE guidelines since difficulty would presumably have already been rewarded in the skater's first step sequence.

Since the spiral sequence is now level-free across the board, I could see the ISU tweaking the spiral GOE guidelines over the next few seasons to reward technical difficulty if everyone starts doing spirals that aren't very challenging.

[daisies]

Since the spiral sequence is now level-free across the board, I could see the ISU tweaking the spiral GOE guidelines over the next few seasons to reward technical difficulty if everyone starts doing spirals that aren't very challenging.
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose? If they wanted to reward difficulty, they would have left the levels in place.

[techskater]

Also, the complaint about spiral sequences is that everyone was doing the bare minimum to get a L4 spiral sequence and they all looked generically the same! Also, the requirements to get a level 4 made spiral sequences that did not necessarily fit the music but DID meet those level 3/4 requirements and looked totally out of place.

[Isk8NYC]

The USFSA issued an alert regarding the implementation of the ISU Communication we've been discussing. They have to work up a schedule, but in the meantime, we're to use the current rules and Levels of Difficulty (aka: SOV).

http://www.usfsa.org/New_Judging.asp?id=354


Technical Notifications/Alerts

U.S. Figure Skating will announce an implementation plan for the recently published ISU Communications 1610 (Ice Dancing) and 1611 (Singles and Pairs) as soon as possible. Please continue to use the 2009-10 rules and levels of difficulty until further notice.

[Ellyn]

Since the spiral sequence is now level-free across the board, I could see the ISU tweaking the spiral GOE guidelines over the next few seasons to reward technical difficulty if everyone starts doing spirals that aren't very challenging.

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose? If they wanted to reward difficulty, they would have left the levels in place.

Also, the complaint about spiral sequences is that everyone was doing the bare minimum to get a L4 spiral sequence and they all looked generically the same!

Yeah.

Under 6.0, there were no written, consistent guidelines about how to evaluate spiral sequences that I'm aware of, but surely some judges took difficulty into account.

There are areas of difficulty that fit into the level definitions and other areas of difficulty that don't.

And of those that do fit in, some are easier to accomplish or easier to hold long enough to get credit for than others.

So given a choice of how to make their spiral sequences more difficult, most skaters chose features that had the best chance of earning them the highest level with the least cost of energy or quality. And that's why they almost all used the same features and the spiral sequences all looked very similar.

E.g., I think that the back outside to forward inside choctaw between spiral positions in the (until this year) US novice MITF test, or the three turns between BO and FI spirals on the senior test are just as hard as a forward edge change in spiral position, ditto with the rockers or counters that some skaters (most notably Irina Slutskaya in the early 2000s) used between two spiral positions on one foot.

But because those transitions involve dropping the free leg they don't count as features. So there was no value in skaters using them in their spiral sequences when they were trying to earn levels.

A backward edge change (rare) or a skid spiral from back to front with the free leg still in spiral position (rarer still, almost impossible to hold both edges for 3 seconds) did count as features. But since they're harder than forward edge changes, and the maximum-three-positions, must-change-foot rules forced a choice between those transitions or the forward edge change, almost everyone chose a forward edge change.

Now I think we'll start seeing those transitions within spiral sequences again, because they won't preclude the skater from getting credit for an easier feature they need to earn levels. They can do both if they want! Or they can do the harder one and not worry about whether it counts as a feature, and get their 3- or 6-second-hold positions elsewhere in the sequence.

[doubletoe]

Since the spiral sequence is now level-free across the board, I could see the ISU tweaking the spiral GOE guidelines over the next few seasons to reward technical difficulty if everyone starts doing spirals that aren't very challenging.

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose? If they wanted to reward difficulty, they would have left the levels in place.

Right. But we're talking about the ISU here.:roll: They change their minds about everything on a yearly basis, depending on what they don't like about the skating they're seeing. If they were able to decide what they wanted to reward and stick to it, we wouldn't see these changes every single season!

[techskater]

And of those that do fit in, some are easier to accomplish or easier to hold long enough to get credit for than others.

So given a choice of how to make their spiral sequences more difficult, most skaters chose features that had the best chance of earning them the highest level with the least cost of energy or quality. And that's why they almost all used the same features and the spiral sequences all looked very similar.


Yes, many of us who are in this discussion already skate under IJS (daisies, skater1964, doubletoe and myself at minimum) and understand that those were the "easiest" features to get called and why many skaters were basically completing the same spiral sequence as the skater before them. My belief is that the choreo step and spiral sequence came about because of:
a) the complaint of the same old spiral sequence skater after skater and
b) Lysacek's win over Plushenko which may or may not have happened with these changes

[Isk8NYC]

b) Lysacek's win over Plushenko which may or may not have happened with these changes
I'm not mocking you, but I laughed out loud in reading this because I misinterpreted it as "Plushenko lost because of Lysacek's spiral sequence." I understand that there was more to it than that, but just the thought of spirals as the scale-tipper was humorous.

[Purple Sparkly]

As an Adult Gold skater, I am glad to see the values of axels and doubles increased. I already intended to put them back in for next year, but it will be nice to get a few more tenths for them if done well.

My coach would love being able to put together a sequence that just goes with the music without worrying about getting 804 turns and steps in both directions in each third of the ice. I did not see a lot of information about these Choreo sequences, so I'll have to go research it more. Making these the only options for adults would make it more fair and equalize the scores a little.

I used to try step sequences, but I would break my neck trying to get all of the features for a level 2, just to have it called as a level 1. It was especially frustrating that I could have done hop-cross-mohawk-three-turn down the ice and get the same exact level.

[sk8er1964]

I like your name, Purple Sparkly!

Now I just have to try and figure out who you are. :lol:

[vesperholly]

I like your name, Purple Sparkly!

Now I just have to try and figure out who you are. :lol:

If it is who I think it is, she has lots of tissues. ;)

[techskater]

If it is who I think it is, she has lots of tissues. - Versperholly

I don't think so, I think she Purple skated Open at Mids and didn't skate at ANs at all if it's who I think it is...tissue girl at least rotated (and two footed) her Axel attempts at Mids and ANs

[manleywoman]

I used to try step sequences, but I would break my neck trying to get all of the features for a level 2, just to have it called as a level 1. It was especially frustrating that I could have done hop-cross-mohawk-three-turn down the ice and get the same exact level.

I feel you. my step sequence was complicated and should have been a 2 and was frustratingly called a 1. It went great with the music and I loved it, but it's sad that yes I essentially could have done a bunch of three turns down the ice instead.

[daisies]

If it is who I think it is, she has lots of tissues. ;)
Hahaha, that joke will never cease to be funny. ;)

[vesperholly]

ahh tissues!!! That tossie was second only to the foam weapons. I was so excited about it.

I don't think so, I think she Purple skated Open at Mids and didn't skate at ANs at all if it's who I think it is...tissue girl at least rotated (and two footed) her Axel attempts at Mids and ANs

I don't think we're thinking of the same person. :)

[Stormy]

If it is who I think it is, she has lots of tissues. - Versperholly

I don't think so, I think she Purple skated Open at Mids and didn't skate at ANs at all if it's who I think it is...tissue girl at least rotated (and two footed) her Axel attempts at Mids and ANs

No, tissue girl didn't two foot her axels. I know who you're thinking of that two foots her axels, but the one with issues with tissues definitely does not. She has nice high big axels. Now I'm wondering too who Purple Sparkly is....I only know two Gold skaters from Indiana.....

[RachelSk8er]

If it is who I think it is, she has lots of tissues. ;)

Except Issues with Tissues is not known for being overly sparkly.

[manleywoman]

Wow. Clearly I'm not in the know here. I feel badly for whoever is known as "issues with tissues." Not a nice nickname.

[Purple Sparkly]

If it is who I think it is, she has lots of tissues. ;)

Yes, I have issues with tissues!

My name has to be Sparkly because my dresses are never sparkly enough... :)

[vesperholly]

Wow. Clearly I'm not in the know here. I feel badly for whoever is known as "issues with tissues." Not a nice nickname.
No, it was a joke from ANs that she herself started :)
Yes, I have issues with tissues!

My name has to be Sparkly because my dresses are never sparkly enough... :)

Hooray! Welcome to SF! :D

[daisies]

Wow. Clearly I'm not in the know here. I feel badly for whoever is known as "issues with tissues." Not a nice nickname.
It's OK, she's in on it as was there when it was coined! Long story short, my tossies this year were Kleenex, but because I throw worse than a girl ;), I enlisted vesperholly to throw them for me. Purple Sparkly saw what she was throwing and said something like, "What is that? Tissues? Who throws tissues as a tossie?" So, I said, "I do! What's wrong with tissues? They're useful!" And she said something to the effect of she'd never seen anything like that, so I said, jokingly, "Do you have issues with tissues?" And then laughter ensued.... haha....

And then ... vesperholly had the brilliant idea of buying huge boxes of Kleenex to throw for Purple Sparkly at her Friday event! And we incorporated the "issues with tissues" line on what we wrote on the boxes (er, at least I did, not sure what vesperholly did!). Anyway, it was hilarious!

So the nickname came from that, and it's all good!

[manleywoman]

Ahhhhh got it thanks.

[Purple Sparkly]

And now I know who daises is!

I hope (and I believe from reading this thread that some others do as well) that they will change the adult well balanced requirements to one choreo step or one choreo spiral, which would make things even because they're both worth 2 points.
Back on topic, I also hope they make the options for adults either a choreo step or spiral sequence. I know just talking about it on an internet forum doesn't get our wishes heard effectively. Can anybody recommend who/which committees we would need to contact to let US Figure Skating know our preference?

[Stormy]

And now I know who daises is!


Back on topic, I also hope they make the options for adults either a choreo step or spiral sequence. I know just talking about it on an internet forum doesn't get our wishes heard effectively. Can anybody recommend who/which committees we would need to contact to let US Figure Skating know our preference?

Adult Skating Committee. A bunch of us here are on it, so you're defintiely in one of the right places to make your ideas heard. :)

[RachelSk8er]

Yes, I have issues with tissues!

My name has to be Sparkly because my dresses are never sparkly enough... :)

No, this year you had sufficient sparkle on your FS dress and your interp dress was very, very shiny.

Too bad your name isn't Purple Sparkly Banana Phone...now that would be sweet.

[Purple Sparkly]

No, this year you had sufficient sparkle on your FS dress and your interp dress was very, very shiny.

Too bad your name isn't Purple Sparkly Banana Phone...now that would be sweet.
I had to have more sparkle on my dress. Stormy made me promise and I think she would have hurt me if I didn't. And now she's yelling "Sparkly!" for me when I skate, which is hilarious. I feel like I have a slogan now, I feel special.

I totally forgot about the banana phone.. How is it that a few intoxicated pictures holding an upside-down iBanana phone at the 2009 AN competitor's party forever links me to a banana phone?

[Purple Sparkly]

Adult Skating Committee. A bunch of us here are on it, so you're defintiely in one of the right places to make your ideas heard. :)
Oh, good. Well, if I need to send annoying e-mails to people, just let me know and I will do so. :)