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View Full Version : Mystery Blade Problem/more blade woes


RachelSk8er
04-30-2010, 09:50 AM
Has anyone ever had a blade that was "defective" but there were no physical problems with the blade (either warping, crooked, the sharpening, it not being mounted properly, etc)?

Long story short, I'm continuing to have issues with my blades that go beyond a normal blade adjustment period (switched from Ultima Synchro to MK Gold Stars in early March). Initially I thought it was the hollow, had that fixed, it helped somewhat (they were easier to jump in, do forward spins in, much harder to do footwork/dance in). I was starting to feel like I was finally, for the most part, "used" to them, but now that I'm back to working on my MIF test again, it's obvious that there is still something not quite right.

Today in my lesson, we were working on my junior moves, and my coach was trying to figure out why I'm still having so many issues with turns on my R foot compared to the left (when my left is usually weaker) that I never had before. He finally started to realize that maybe for once I'm right about something, it may not be me, it may be a blade issue. When I'm gliding on a RBI edge (to set up for a rocker), it's almost like the blade is angled so that it is trying to pull me onto an outside edge. My coach got a good look and it seems to be pulling awkwardly (he had me glide and literally got down on his belly on the ice to get a closer look...we had the rink to ourselves and it was quite funny). Basically it's a struggle and I feel like the right blade has a mind of its own.

Overall we seem to notice this is part of a pattern that's been developing. My back spins have also become stuch a struggle and aren't really improving even though we've made improvements on technique this year and they were MUCH improved before the blade switch (back sit especially has become a struggle ever since switching blades. My flying camel is the exception, only because the proper toepicks make the entry/landing much better, the spin itself is not much better). It's like trying to get over my R side properly puts me too far over and I lose the spin. I used to be able to do triple twizzles on the R, now I can only do a single and if I try any more revs it feels terribly off.

The issues aren't there on the same turns on the left foot. As far as spinning, there has been a HUGE improvement in my forward spins. And if I put my old boots/blades on, the issues aren't there.

Funny thing is that we don't see anything physically wrong with the sole of the boot being crooked, the blade mounting, or the blade itself being bent or warped or sharpened wonky when I took the skate off to look at it.

I'm taking them today to have them looked at. It may very well be that it is me, there is nothing wrong with the blade, they just don't agre with me and I need different ones. But I almost wonder if it's partially due to the fact that the blades are a tad on the long side for the soles of my skates (they came off the same size skates, but soles on the Riedell 1310/2010 series are slightly smaller than on the old Royals that they came off of), but initially my skate guru, my coach, and Glyn Watts (who I had look at them when I got them because I wanted a second opinion on the blade length) all said that would be fine.

fsk8r
04-30-2010, 10:01 AM
I'm sure you've checked already, but are the different edges level on the blade? Just wondering if the outside edge where higher than the inside it's going to push you onto the outside when you want to be on the inside (as it will be touching the ice).

Rusty Blades
04-30-2010, 10:08 AM
Strange that you bring up this topic because I spent 6 months working with a coach last year trying to 'clean up my edges'.

I didn't have any trouble with edges when I first started 4 years ago but when I started working with a different coach a year ago, she pointed out that my edges were not clean (single track). We played with blade position and everything else we could think of, even enlisted other coaches to try to figure out what happened.

Finally, being totally out of ideas after 6 months, she asked me "Where are you carrying your weight on the blade?" I told her, she made a suggestion, and the problem was GONE! It seems that at some point I had shifted my weight (probably slowly) and no one ever noticed.

Sometimes it just means going back to the very beginning and covering the basics again.

sk8tmum
04-30-2010, 10:25 AM
We did, actually. The sole of the boot itself was fractionally "not level" and needed to be shaved down to "level" it. The blade was fine, it was the sole of the heel of the boot. Once shaved/levelled, no problems at all.

sk8tmum
04-30-2010, 10:27 AM
Oh yes ... and perhaps relevant ... it was on Riedells. Both times, two different models, two different skaters - one an entry level boot, one an advanced level boot. For the latter, the "not level" was noticed and fixed at initial blade mounting, for the former, as they were boot/blade combo, not until we had them looked at and then fixed.

RachelSk8er
04-30-2010, 10:28 AM
Strange that you bring up this topic because I spent 6 months working with a coach last year trying to 'clean up my edges'.

I didn't have any trouble with edges when I first started 4 years ago but when I started working with a different coach a year ago, she pointed out that my edges were not clean (single track). We played with blade position and everything else we could think of, even enlisted other coaches to try to figure out what happened.

Finally, being totally out of ideas after 6 months, she asked me "Where are you carrying your weight on the blade?" I told her, she made a suggestion, and the problem was GONE! It seems that at some point I had shifted my weight (probably slowly) and no one ever noticed.

Sometimes it just means going back to the very beginning and covering the basics again.

I've never had an issue with unclean edges before, and we played around with where my weight is on the blade since it is slightly different than my old blades. Literally my coach was down on the ice on his belly watching me skate by (I wish I had a video, the whole thing was hilarious) to get a better look. It's when I get on the right part of the blade that it seems to start pulling. Or even if I'm just gliding backward on one footon both edges, it pulls. Plus it's just odd given I don't have the issue on the left, which tends to be my weaker side. That would point to more of a "not in the right part of the blade" issue if it were going on with both feet. There wasn't anything we could see wrong, even with the sharpening.

I have an appointment this afternoon with one of our local skate gurus (Carl @ Skater's Edge in Cleveland). Hopefully he'll help figure it out, or I guess I'll be shelling out for new blades.

Isk8NYC
04-30-2010, 11:08 AM
I'm so sorry - I have had this problem chronically for over a year. I double-track on outside edges.

Back three turns and brackets are frightening, jumps are clumsy and awkward. I've spent so much money on blades and adjustments that it's not funny. When I had trouble with spins, I finally decided that it had to be the boots.

When I went to be fitted for new boots, we found that my feet measurements have changed and the old boots are too wide. I think our lack of a garage and the hot southern sun probably contributed to the boots' uselessness somewhat.

I hope your fitter finds a less-expensive solution.

RachelSk8er
04-30-2010, 11:37 AM
Back three turns and brackets are frightening, jumps are clumsy and awkward. I've spent so much money on blades and adjustments that it's not funny. When I had trouble with spins, I finally decided that it had to be the boots.



Tell me about it. Back turns are downright scary, when they never were before, and aren't in my other skates. I was doing power pull-quick rockers last week on the problem skate when I fell, smacked my head on the ice, and got a concussion. I don't think it's the boots, I love the boots now that they're broken in and the fit feels perfect. (My old boots feel big in comparison when I switch back to them for dance since they're broken down and stretched out, but that doesn't cause the issues with turns I've been having when I do them in those skates.)

RachelSk8er
04-30-2010, 04:10 PM
Think we found the problem, but not until we looked at my old skates in comparison to the new skates (and my skate guy looked at the wear pattern on my shoes and how I walk in shoes, barefoot, and in skates).

Blades are (or should be) mounted on straight, but over time may tilt one direction or another very slightly depending on the skater (issues like stance, bone structure, weight, whether you tend to put more of your weight to the outside of your foot, etc), part of this comes from when the skates break in/settle and kind of re-shape, not the blade itself actually bending.

When you looked at my old skates from the heel, the blade tilted in very slightly because I put my weight out the outside of my feet. Right blade on my new skates wasn't totally straight, it slightly tilted outward. Hence why I was constantly fighting my turns and everything on that foot and having trouble with back spins and edges. The left blade was straight, which explains the lack of issues on the left side. Even though the tilt in each direction was only very slight (compared to a blade that was on straight), when you compared the old right skate against the new right skate, it was a huge difference between the two.

So he's going to take the blade off, fix the sole and the heel to get the blade to sit straight, which will hopefully be the fix to my problem.

vesperholly
04-30-2010, 05:38 PM
Blade alignment on the sole was what came to my mind. I had major trouble with the under foot slipping on crossovers years back (working on those Intermediate crossovers) and it was because I needed my blades turned out slightly at the picks. Glad you found a reason and I hope the adjustment fixes your problem!

Sessy
05-01-2010, 02:28 AM
I had MK21 blades that were warped yeah... Took me over a half a year of skating to find out cuz they were my first real blades and I didn't know any better, basically I just couldn't spin in them at all. They must've been warped a little bit all the time, but when I started doing bigger jumps like the lutz they started warping even more and only then the sharpener/pro store owner at my rink actually noticed it (I couldn't even see it until he put the skate alongside a sheet and showed me how one end of the blade curved away - this was with both blades in fact, just one worse than the other). According to the skate shop owner, he'd seen the problem before. I switched blades and my spinning improved drastically and quickly, as did various other things that depended on edges.

Blade allignment could be a problem I guess too. Skate shop my mom got her skates at didn't bother with a temporary mounting, they mounted them straight away and they really shouldn't have. :frus: Tbh, it wasn't even so bad when I tried her skates on, but my mom was used to just putting everything on the inside edge... Ohwell, they fixed it at my skate shop easily. :) It's no wonder the dude now has 2 pro skate shops as of this year. :)

Skate@Delaware
05-01-2010, 08:18 AM
It took almost a year to fix my right blade alignment problem. I could not backspin to save my life! It wasn't until it was messed with repeatedly and taken to 2 different pros that it was finally fixed. The shame is-when I get new boots I will have to go through the process all over again :frus:.

Glad you finally got it figured out!

RachelSk8er
05-01-2010, 08:59 AM
I guess I've actually been pretty lucky. I've been in "real skates" (i.e. boots and blades that came separate) since I was 10 years old (1991). I think this is about my 11th (?) pair of boots since then, and it's the first time I'm ever had a blade moved after it was first mounted. Only ever had a boot issue once, too (switched from Riedell to Risport in 97, BAD mistake, went right back to Riedell).

icedancer2
05-01-2010, 02:19 PM
I hope the new alignment works out!!

I am quite convinced that the blade can make or break your skating (to a certain extent of course...).

Query
05-01-2010, 09:02 PM
If it doesn't fix it, it may be your sharpener does not know about maintaining the sweet spot - the place where your rocker curve changes in order to stabilize spin, like the cusp at the bottom of a top.

In particular, if the sharpener simply moves the grinding wheel against the blade, every time, without re-emphasizing the sweet spot, your blade will gradually get a more and more uniform rocker curve, and it will be harder and harder to spin and turn.

FWIIW, Don Klingbeil has claimed that boots often warp much as you described if the blade is offset (mounted off center) - which is why he favors other ways of compensating balance.

Regardless, I hope what your coach suggests works out.

RachelSk8er
05-02-2010, 06:21 PM
If it doesn't fix it, it may be your sharpener does not know about maintaining the sweet spot - the place where your rocker curve changes in order to stabilize spin, like the cusp at the bottom of a top.



That could be a little part of it, he said he would take a look at it and fix it if needed. I have always been very picky about who sharpened my skates, but I was away in college (Miami University) when I first used these blades. We had someone who took care of all the skates for the varsity/club figure skaters and I only actually had these blades sharpened maybe 5 times, but that doesn't mean he was perfect or couldn't have done some damage, particularly when these are 7' rockers and most skaters seem to wear 8'. The one that needs moved also could have been a tad bent, so that's going to get fixed, too. But it never really felt like a problem with the rocker itself.

I go to Skater's Edge in Cleveland, people come here from hours away to get skates. Anyone familiar with them knows my skates are in good hands, Carl is working on them :)

Skate@Delaware
05-02-2010, 08:22 PM
If it doesn't fix it, it may be your sharpener does not know about maintaining the sweet spot - the place where your rocker curve changes in order to stabilize spin, like the cusp at the bottom of a top.

In particular, if the sharpener simply moves the grinding wheel against the blade, every time, without re-emphasizing the sweet spot, your blade will gradually get a more and more uniform rocker curve, and it will be harder and harder to spin and turn.

FWIIW, Don Klingbeil has claimed that boots often warp much as you described if the blade is offset (mounted off center) - which is why he favors other ways of compensating balance.

Regardless, I hope what your coach suggests works out.
It's for this reason that I DON'T take my blades to get sharpened at my rink (mindlessly shoving a blade against a grinding wheel?)...but take them upstate to a guy I can trust (I can count on one hand the boot/blade techs that I trust). After having my blade ruined...no way! My guy checks rocker, alignment, inside/outside edges, etc....and has me skate on them as well.

RachelSk8er
05-03-2010, 06:57 AM
It's for this reason that I DON'T take my blades to get sharpened at my rink (mindlessly shoving a blade against a grinding wheel?)...but take them upstate to a guy I can trust (I can count on one hand the boot/blade techs that I trust). After having my blade ruined...no way! My guy checks rocker, alignment, inside/outside edges, etc....and has me skate on them as well.

Yeah general rule of thumb, never have your blades sharpened at the rink unless there are special circumstances (Mr. Edge comes to your rink, our local skate guru goes to some of the rinks farther away from his shop once every few weeks, or you have a pro shop with someone who actually knows what they're doing). Otherwise you get people like me when I was in high school--I worked at the rink and sometimes sharpened rental skates. I was OK with hockey skates and even would do my own, but I mostly just used those for goofing off when I skate guarded so I didn't break down my figure skates. When it came to figure skates, I had no clue what I was doing. I wouldn't touch a pair of hockey/figure skates someone left us to sharpen. That doesn't mean other people who similarly had no clue what they were doing wouldn't.

Isk8NYC
05-03-2010, 07:13 AM
Every place is different and I agree that there are some rinks where the in-house pro shop isn't the best choice for sharpening.

The man who owns our pro shop does an awesome job with sharpenings (ask mskater, lol). You just drop them off at the pro shop and he does the work at his home workshop. Since GC was last week, he'll be deluged with sharpenings this week.

The rink offers sharpenings through the front desk, but I would never try that since I don't know who's doing the work.

The best bet is to ask several of the skating coaches and skaters where they go and then make an appointment with whoever they recommend.

doubletoe
05-03-2010, 08:13 PM
So glad you figured out the problem! I once had a similar blade mounting problem on my left skate. The blade was in the right place at the heel, but it was on a slight diagonal so that it was a little to the outside (left) at the toe. I could not figure out why I felt so insecure on my axel takeoff until one day I was just standing on the ice in my skates and I noticed my left foot kept tilting to the inside instead of staying right over the blade. I got the blade position fixed, then landed 9 out of 10 axels in a row the next time I skated!

teresa
05-07-2010, 10:22 PM
I had symptoms just like you described in my old blades on my left side. For the longest time I thought it was just me. My left side is my weaker side and I just thought it was my personal problem. When I got new blades and boots I was imformed that my old left blade was seriously warped. Yes, my left side was my weaker side but it had serious "help" with a warped blade. I often told my coach that my left side had a mind of it's own and it did! I noticed an improvement right away. An improvement, not a fix. I have improved on my weak side and I feel much more confident than I did in the old days. This may be something to look into. The gentleman who mounted my new blades did not notice the warp until he took the old bladrs off my old boots. He "looked" at my old mount because my complaints raised some questions in his mind. I'm very thankful that he did! Maybe new blades are in order?

Good luck,

Teresa

Virtualsk8r
05-08-2010, 10:12 AM
Check the heel height of your new skates that have the blade issue and compare the height to the old skates you were accustomed to. Many boot makers are not consistent in the height of the heel - and can differ from pair to pair. One of my skaters lost her 2A and 3Lo in a new pair of Riedell's with a higher and wider heel that her old same-sized pair - so had to buy a slightly longer new blade as well. Didn't take me long to compare heel height - and ship them back to Riedell to have the heel reduced to the 'old' size and width. Once the new heels were on and the blade switched back to a 10' -fro 10 1/4", the jumps came back.

Check the height of the blade itself. Not only can the blade runner be higher or lower to the ice than its mate, but the actual heel or toe plate can be fractionally taller and smaller as well --- which would really throw off balance.

Somewhat obvious afterthought: Are the blades are the correct foot? There is a left and right foot for most blades and sometimes mounters do screw it up.......

RachelSk8er
05-08-2010, 02:46 PM
I got these back yesterday. Basically they shaved down the soles a bit in a few spots on both skates, fixed a slight bowing in one of the blades, and put the blades back on in the exact same place.

Skated in them last night and they FINALLY feel like I'm skating in my skates, not a pair I'm borrowing from someone else. I was able to run through my moves test in them and they were almost as good as in my dance skates (I find a few of the elements, like forward inside rockers in the rocker pattern and the choctaws, are easier in my broken down dance boots but the blades weren't a problem at all). My step sequence in my FS program was finally back to being just as edgy and fast as it was before I got these skates, I no longer have to fight the edges and wind up behind in the music, and I was able to put back in some of the things I had taken out when I switched skates (a double twizzle I changed to a single, a quick rocker choctaw I replaced with a double 3). Also really noticed that the setup and take-off edges of my axel feel much more solid and not scary like they were before. And I could actually stay in my back sit.

I also went from feeling like there was no way in he** I could ever dance in those blades (even though I competed solo dance in the exact blades back in college one season just fine, finished 3rd at intercollegiate nationals that year in novice solo dance) to feeling like I actually could dance in them if I wanted to. Except I think I want to stick with my other skates for dance just because some of the steps in the Quickstep are pretty fast/tight and it's a heck of a lot easier not to trip yourself when you have a shorter heel.

GoSveta
05-09-2010, 06:27 PM
I think some may have remembered my thread that I made about this similar type of issue, littered with frustration. It got deleted by accident (I still love you guys, though :bow:).

I had to go back like 4 times to get my blades adjusted. In fact, I just got back yesterday from yet another trip. I think I should be fairly good. Now, I just have to break in the new skating orthotics that were put in them :frus: Lol!

Another issue I had is that this other sharpener put a hollow in my blade that is like 30% deeper than what I usually skate on.

Don't you just love it when your outside edges seem to have a mind of their own? When they cut in so deep into the ice that you find it hard work to get off of them, and they tend to bring you where they want to go, instead of you controlling them?

I chalked it up to "New sharpening, will self-resolve," but after about 20 hours of skating I figured something was wrong. They still felt like I had gotten them sharpened five minutes ago, and my edge still felt like diamond-tips cutting through the ice.

I asked my usual guy to tell me what the hollow was and before he even put the gauge on it he was like ":lol: It looks very deep. That your problem? :lol:" Not cute...

After he changed it back, the edge issue basically went away. Lol... It's a new sharpening and I don't even have trouble stopping or anything, after skating on what they were before...

It took almost a year to fix my right blade alignment problem. I could not backspin to save my life! It wasn't until it was messed with repeatedly and taken to 2 different pros that it was finally fixed. The shame is-when I get new boots I will have to go through the process all over again :frus:.


I think this will be the story of my life, as well.

I do plan on moving to a pair of customs in about 6 months, though.

Does anyone know how Jacksons compare to Klingbeils?

doubletoe
05-12-2010, 06:16 PM
I got these back yesterday. Basically they shaved down the soles a bit in a few spots on both skates, fixed a slight bowing in one of the blades, and put the blades back on in the exact same place.

Skated in them last night and they FINALLY feel like I'm skating in my skates, not a pair I'm borrowing from someone else. I was able to run through my moves test in them and they were almost as good as in my dance skates (I find a few of the elements, like forward inside rockers in the rocker pattern and the choctaws, are easier in my broken down dance boots but the blades weren't a problem at all). My step sequence in my FS program was finally back to being just as edgy and fast as it was before I got these skates, I no longer have to fight the edges and wind up behind in the music, and I was able to put back in some of the things I had taken out when I switched skates (a double twizzle I changed to a single, a quick rocker choctaw I replaced with a double 3). Also really noticed that the setup and take-off edges of my axel feel much more solid and not scary like they were before. And I could actually stay in my back sit.

I also went from feeling like there was no way in he** I could ever dance in those blades (even though I competed solo dance in the exact blades back in college one season just fine, finished 3rd at intercollegiate nationals that year in novice solo dance) to feeling like I actually could dance in them if I wanted to. Except I think I want to stick with my other skates for dance just because some of the steps in the Quickstep are pretty fast/tight and it's a heck of a lot easier not to trip yourself when you have a shorter heel.

Wow! Let's hear it for people who know their way around our boots and blades! :bow: So glad the problems are fixed!

harmony
05-13-2010, 09:09 AM
I'm in the process of going from Jacksons into a pair of Kleinbeil customs right now. FYI, when I skated when I was younger, I wore Reidell first (now, I'm not a fan - a whole other story) and then Harlicks (which I really liked). The Jacksons I started in as an adult again were never meant for me to train it, but I caught the skating bug again, so here I am. I have my first fitting soon, and I did like the pair of stock boots that I did try on, so I'll keep you updated.

flying~camel
05-13-2010, 10:39 AM
I'm in the process of going from Jacksons into a pair of Kleinbeil customs right now.

I've had my custom Klingbeils for about a year now and I absolutely LOVE them! They were the easiest break-in I've ever had (I'd been in Risports, Reidells and SP Teris as a teenager).

vesperholly
05-13-2010, 04:50 PM
I have had two (three?) pairs of custom Klingbeils, and they're great. Super heavy though - I hope they've started doing the cork in the heels like Reidell.