My daughter was yelled by another skater's coach

[coconut]

Our rink has a star skater who is working on her triples. Her coach always yells at her in every lessons. Sometimes she cries and refuses to continue but her mom makes her to do it. This afternoon in a FS session, my daughter (a lefty) was trying to set up her double loop. This skater and her coach, who was following her and yelling, skated very fast toward my daughter. My daughter saw her and aborted her jump while the star skater also decided to abort. Her coach then started to follow my daughter for 2/3 of the rink and yelled at her. Basically saying they have the right of the way and she needs to watch...blah blah.

I was taping my daughter at that time because she has trouble with the double loop. We reviewed the tape and cannot see anything wrong with my daughter so I told our coach. Our coach said that just half hour ago, her other student who was in a lesson, also got yelled by this coach. So our coach was upset and call this coach to leave a message.

Now...I regretted ever mentioning this to our coach because this coach may do or say something to me next time me or my daughter is the on ice. If he does say something rude, what shall I respond? I am getting very nervous about what will happen next week....

By the way, I have praised this star skater in front of her mom several times before. I enjoy watching her. Her mom is very pushy to her own child but she is a nice person otherwise. I hope this accident will not cause any tension between us either.

Thank you for any suggestions.

[RachelSk8er]

Now...I regretted ever mentioning this to our coach because this coach may do or say something to me next time me or my daughter is the on ice. If he does say something rude, what shall I respond? I am getting very nervous about what will happen next week....

Remind him that you are spending your hard-earned money on your child's ice time and coaching, and your child is no less important than his student and he needs to be respectful of others on the ice. And that you feel someone disciplining your child (who was not misbehaving) is uncalled for, that is to you and your child's coach to do.

Really, if a coach has an issue with a skater on the ice, they should be going to the child's coach and discussing it. Not yelling at the kid.

[SkaterBird]

That coach was out of line. Bullies are bullies, as adults on ice rinks or as mean kids school playgrounds. It was not okay for him to berate your child that way and you were within your rights to complain. Sounds to me like that coach (and maybe the other skater's mom) are basically teaching the girl to dislike skating. What a shame.

[Stormy]

The coach was defintiely out of line. Is there a skating director at your rink you could mention this to? We all get in each other's way accidentally sometimes and that coach had no business yelling at your daughter.

I do think you might be overthinking this though. Like I said, every skater will get in someone's way by accident at some point. Happens all the time. The other girl's mother shouldn't even give it a second thought. And if the coach does say something to you, I'd just politely tell him it was an accident and your daughter is sorry and that's that. Don't be nervous. If you won't see him until next week, he'll have probably forgotten all about it. This isn't a huge deal.

[Sessy]

I have somewhat of a childhood "trauma" with a pushy teacher yelling at me causing me in the end to essentially quit what I was doing at the time, so frankly I'm surprised at just how civil you and your kid handled this!

[coconut]

Thank you all for the suggestions. I would like to avoid any confrontation or argument so if the coach does say something to me, I will repeat what Stormy said.

But in the back of my head, I feel a little sad because my daughter has been yielding to this coach's students all the time, even when my daughter was in lessons. My daughter does not have much confidence. Every time she saw them coming, she aborted her jumps. My daughter's coach was already frustrated with us yielding all the time. Now my daughter will have even less confidence to deal with the situation.

What shall I tell my daughter?

[GoSveta]

Thank you all for the suggestions. I would like to avoid any confrontation or argument so if the coach does say something to me, I will repeat what Stormy said.

But in the back of my head, I feel a little sad because my daughter has been yielding to this coach's students all the time, even when my daughter was in lessons. My daughter does not have much confidence. Every time she saw them coming, she aborted her jumps. My daughter's coach was already frustrated with us yielding all the time. Now my daughter will have even less confidence to deal with the situation.

What shall I tell my daughter?
Tell the coach to be polite and if he or she has an issue, to take it up with both you and your child's coach.

You also need to talk to the skating director.

Yelling like that is not a good way to coach, and it's certainly OUT OF LINE to yell at someone else's student/child, when those persons are in the rink for you to confront.

Also, there's a difference between yelling and being obnoxious and yelling at the same time.

If the coach is yelling stuff like "PUSH!" "YOU'RE SLOWING DOWN!" "CHECK!"... things of that nature... I don't see an issue with them yelling. If they're yelling stuff like "STOP BEING A QUITTER!" "WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!" "THAT WAS CRAP/REDICULOUS/STUPID/etc." then even I'd step in and say something because no one deserves to be treated that way.

Any parent who allows their child to be borderline abused by a coach has issues, as well. Any parent who participates in it is certainly crazy. That can turn them off of the sport, and eventually morph the situation into something like the child being forced to do something they don't want to do, which isn't humane - IMHO.

[Kat12]

Has your daughter's coach spoken with this other coach to ask him/her to have his/her skaters keep out of your daughter's way during lessons? Because it sounds like the first step if this person's students are always in your daughter's way as well.

[Isk8NYC]

Two skaters on an otherwise empty sheet of ice should be capable of managing to avoid each other and that's exactly what happened. No one collided, the lesson really wasn't interrupted, and your daughter yielded properly to the skater on lesson. The other skater's coach interrupted her own lesson by wasting the time berating your daughter.

Be the bigger person and just pretend it didn't happen. Your daughter did nothing wrong. If you let it drop, everyone else will since it seems you're the ones in the right.

It does sound like the other coach is venting because she's frustrated with the skater. Save a copy of the video. I hope you caught the coach wasting her time and breath on camera. If anything does come of it, from the coach, the other skater, or her mother, just offer to put the video on "America's Funniest Home Videos" or send a copy to the skating director and the PSA along with a complaint.

[coconut]

I really appreciate the above advices. Thank you all very much!! I feel a lot calmer and peaceful now.

My daughter's coach did not ask the other coach to share the ice. I guess no body dares to. There is a pair team in the FS session and they got interrupted by this coach sometimes when they did their run-through. There are usually 20 skates on the ice, but when the star skater sets up her jumps with coach yelling, everyone gets out of the way quickly. Like everyone else, I did not take the matter seriously because I thought this coach has a bad temper so I preferred to stay away. Until he picked on my daughter....

Just want to say thank you again. I can sleep better tonight!

[samba]

Our rink has a head coach to report to on issues such as these, if you have one or even the rink manager I suggest you put it to them, the coach has no fear of you or anyone else by the sounds of it but could risk his job if he upsets someone in authority too many times.

[teresa]

Coaches having different styes of coaching. Some are more user friendly than others in my opinion. As a parent and skater I don't like the yelling and degrading type of teaching. This is a parental and student choice though. As a skater who shares the ice with someone who coaches like this occasionaly I make the choice to leave when I can. If I can't, I just buck up and avoid them. As an adult I can do this. If I had a child who had been grumped at I would speak to their coach. (skater) If, I didn't still feel good about things I would talk to the director. I'm sorry this happened to your child and wish you both courage. No matter how hard a skater tries accidents and close calls happen. Skaters and coaches should know this.

Teresa

[Query]

May I encourage you to make sure your daughter understands the coach was in the wrong? She needs to understand her actions are OK.

First, recognize that some kids want to discover the boundaries, and others have something resembling attention deficit disorder, and a certain degree of strictness is the only way to keep their attention. When I volunteered to help with group lessons at a local rink, being strict went completely against my nature, but the method worked well with those kids, and some of the best volunteers were school teachers who understood the need.

But, based on your description, I agree with the others - if the coach keeps misbehaving, the figure skating director, head coach or whatever should be informed. A coach who is abusive in obvious ways may be abusive in other ways, and is unstable and dangerous. Rink management should recognize the risk, both to their customers, and to their own legal liability.

You are much more likely to succeed if you don't go to the appropriate person alone. Find other adults or near adults who agree and go together. That they agree is a good sign you are in the right.

Don't lose your temper. Stay calm and collected, simply make sure management understands you are somewhat concerned that the coach may pose a danger to the coach's own students, as well as other skaters, and that they make skating at the rink a less pleasant experience. A conscientious figure skating director, etc., will go out and watch the coach in action, and make his/her own judgment. Be sympathetic to the figure skating director - this sort of problem must be one of the least pleasant aspects of his/her job.

If it gets back to the coach, and he/she loses his/her temper as a result of such discussions, that will make the coach's emotional instability completely clear to management.

This could impact the coach's ability to make a living, and shouldn't be done lightly. But it is important for the safety of all concerned.

But above all, reassure your own daughter.

[JazzySkate]

Not being condescening here, but if "Star Skater's" on program, she has the right of way-but yelling at you was unprofessional.

Next time take a camcorder or use your cellphone video(?) to the rink. Tape your daughter during her session, start to finish. If that coach either yells at, intimidates, retaliates or follows your daughter-you've got physical evidence that he can't dispute. If he sees you taping his obnoxious behavior he may back off. If he talks to you in a threatening way - document and file a complaint with either the Head Coach and/or management-certified, receipt requested.

If he continues his dysfunctional behavior-Email a letter to PSA, include his full name/rink, scanned copies of your letter to the Head Coach and/or management, and attach your tape. His behavior is not ethical.

There's absolutely no excuse for a "pro" to yell at anyone (except, as someone stated, i.e. to their student: "Keep your head up-don't look down!" "Bend your knees!" That's being constructive. This "outta-my way" attitude is rude. If/when a "pro" yells in a belittling way, he's not representing the skating community, the rink and other pros in a good light. Bad enough enrollment's low due to the economy.

Suggestion: your daughter's a lefty, as I am, which means we jump clockwise. When Miss "Star Skater's" at the other end of the rink, could she do her jumps at the opposite end?

Don't be intimidated by this "pro." YOu and your daughter have every right to be there, including the fact she's a CW jumper. Stand your ground. I'll bet the minute he sees you taping him, he'll get the message.

Good luck

[coconut]

I don't know what that coach will do next week after receiving our coach's message. If he does nothing, I will be happy to let the whole thing go away.

Our coach told my daughter that if this happens again, she will communicate with the other coach right away. Our coach also advices me to keep the video.

I usually go running on a track field next to the rink when my daughter is in FS session. But I will stay inside watching (and maybe taping) from now on.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[FSWer]

Our rink has a star skater who is working on her triples. Her coach always yells at her in every lessons. Sometimes she cries and refuses to continue but her mom makes her to do it. This afternoon in a FS session, my daughter (a lefty) was trying to set up her double loop. This skater and her coach, who was following her and yelling, skated very fast toward my daughter. My daughter saw her and aborted her jump while the star skater also decided to abort. Her coach then started to follow my daughter for 2/3 of the rink and yelled at her. Basically saying they have the right of the way and she needs to watch...blah blah.

I was taping my daughter at that time because she has trouble with the double loop. We reviewed the tape and cannot see anything wrong with my daughter so I told our coach. Our coach said that just half hour ago, her other student who was in a lesson, also got yelled by this coach. So our coach was upset and call this coach to leave a message.

Now...I regretted ever mentioning this to our coach because this coach may do or say something to me next time me or my daughter is the on ice. If he does say something rude, what shall I respond? I am getting very nervous about what will happen next week....

By the way, I have praised this star skater in front of her mom several times before. I enjoy watching her. Her mom is very pushy to her own child but she is a nice person otherwise. I hope this accident will not cause any tension between us either.

Thank you for any suggestions.

I'm not a competitor. But as just a Skater,I can say that it sounds more like a case of an almost 2-way colission. Does your Rink have the rules for Freestyle sessions posted? If so,you may be able to check to see if correct rules were being followed. As if your Daughter IS a Freestyler herself. She has a right to be there as well,and both skaters just need to watch out for each other. Does the tape show if both skaters were at least watching out? BTW. what has the mother of this Star skater and skater heself said when you've praised this skater? Maybe you could try seeing if the star skater will give your Daugter some tips and work into a friendship with this skater's coach AND her mom.

[Query]

Her coach then started to follow my daughter for 2/3 of the rink and yelled at her.

It's this part that really worries me. If you briefly yell at someone to try to avoid a collision that you can't otherwise prevent - that's reasonable.

But when an adult follows and harasses a child, I suspect they may be doing something seriously illegal.

If a rink knowingly lets the adult stay, the rink might have to worry about being liable for child endangerment?

If a skating coach certification body allows the person to continue to coach, maybe they are likewise liable?

That's one of the reasons why any competent management person would pay very close attention, if you had adequate evidence (like multiple witnesses) to the transgression.

About making and keeping a tape: Someone on this forum pointed out to me that it is also illegal in most places and times to record anyone without prior consent - including all skaters and coaches at the rink.

I'm not a lawyer. Maybe someone on this board who understands the law could agree or disagree with the things I just said in this context?

I wouldn't deal with the problem in such a legalistic manner, or contact the certifying body if you can avoid it. The coach might be barred from rinks, lose their coaching certification, and just maybe go to jail. An unstable and dangerous coach might retaliate.

[Stormy]

I think staying inside and taping every lesson is overkill anyways. If he sees you taping him specifically, that might make the situation worse. Has this happened again to your daughter? I'd maybe watch the next one or two lessons and see what happens, if all is good, then great. But if the coach says anything to your daughter again, then I'd start getting on whoever is the director at the rink there to handle the situation. Both you and your daughter shouldn't have to drastically alter either if your normal routines for this coach. That means you should go to the track if you want to and she shouldn't have to yield to this guy and the skater all the time. If she's in her program, that's one thing but all the time otherwise? No way. I'm with Query in that I wouldn't go all out and start shooting off letters to the PSA or taping him. Just see what happens for the next couple of lessons.

[RachelSk8er]

It's this part that really worries me. If you briefly yell at someone to try to avoid a collision that you can't otherwise prevent - that's reasonable.

But when an adult follows and harasses a child, I suspect they may be doing something seriously illegal.

If a rink knowingly lets the adult stay, the rink might have to worry about being liable for child endangerment?

If a skating coach certification body allows the person to continue to coach, maybe they are likewise liable?

That's one of the reasons why any competent management person would pay very close attention, if you had adequate evidence (like multiple witnesses) to the transgression.

About making and keeping a tape: Someone on this forum pointed out to me that it is also illegal in most places and times to record anyone without prior consent - including all skaters and coaches at the rink.

I'm not a lawyer. Maybe someone on this board who understands the law could agree or disagree with the things I just said in this context?

I wouldn't deal with the problem in such a legalistic manner, or contact the certifying body if you can avoid it. The coach might be barred from rinks, lose their coaching certification, and just maybe go to jail. An unstable and dangerous coach might retaliate.


Um...up until now, the coach hasn't done anything illegal. Yelling at someone does not constitute a crime anywhere (let alone something "seriously illegal"). An isolated incident also does not give any rise to any sort of child endangerment.

And as far as videotaping, you can't videotape and display publicly without someone's consent (or consent of a parent if they are a minor). Videotaping your kid's practice to watch at home is fine. If you couldn't videotape anyone without consent, then all the moms and dads who want to tape their kids' soccer games, hockey games, skating competitions and other sporting events would not be allowed to do so.

[doubletoe]

If your daughter is not in her program or not in a lesson, of course she should yield to any skater who is in a lesson, but that coach should just say something to her if she fails to yield. Yelling or harassing her is unnecessary and inappropriate under any circumstance. I agree with those who suggest complaining to the skating director at the rink.

[coconut]

I would like to thank everyone's input.

I don't want to beat a dead horse but I would like to explain a little bit. My daughter was doing CW back crossovers first and looking at the direction she was going. The other skater THEN started the same CW back crossovers with more power and speed into her jump. There is no way my daughter could have seen her until she was about 10 feet away. But as soon as my daughter saw her, my daughter skated away quickly. So the closest distance was about 10 feet. There was no jump blocking or near collision at all.

We are at the rink again this afternoon. The other coach is a lot calmer today and he did not chase his own student at all, unlike last week. My daughter skated close to the wall for the first 20 minutes, doing nothing except stroking. The other skater aborted her jump several times because of all other skaters. When she aborted her jump in the middle of the rink while my daughter was close to the wall, at least 20 feet away, she showed frustration. The other coach did not go to my daughter but talked to his student instead.

Thanks to above suggestions. I did not bring my camera today but just stayed there watching.

Regarding when to yield - I learned FS session rules long ago from this forum and I always remind my daughter about these rules. She is a teenager and she understands what these rules mean. Unfortunately some coaches tell their students to do whatever they want in FS sessions and shall not yield to anyone. We have no problem with this. We just yield more. It's the chasing and yelling part that scared me. But it looks like the other coach just lost his temper last week because his student was not landing her jumps. And now he has realized it after our coach called him. So everything shall be good.

Thanks!

[Query]

RachelSk8er, are you a lawyer or are you guessing too?

It is hard to believe it is OK for an adult to follow and harass a child. It's too similar to what certain types of criminal do.

Some sources claim photographing or recording someone without permission even in a public place isn't always legal.

http://www.citmedialaw.org/book/export/html/1246 says

In some states, you can violate the law by recording secretly, even in a public place.

and

Twelve states require the consent of every party to a phone call or conversation in order to make the recording lawful.

I once asked on this forum (http://skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=28887&highlight=linda+tripp) if it was OK to record a group lesson for my private reference, and was told there might be some problems.

[RachelSk8er]

RachelSk8er, are you a lawyer or are you guessing too?


Not yet but I'm probably the closest you'll get to one on here.

The exact nuances of these laws vary slighty by state (which I could pull from Lexis if I really wanted to spend the time). Still, an isolated incident of yelling at someone's kid most likely does not constitute criminal harrassment.

[Isk8NYC]

Not yet but I'm probably the closest you'll get to one on here.We also have several full-fledged attorneys on this board. They probably don't feel this is serious enough to require legal action. Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill here by playing tit-for-tat.

[sk8lady]

We also have several full-fledged attorneys on this board. They probably don't feel this is serious enough to require legal action. Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill here by playing tit-for-tat.

I've been a practicing attorney for 24 years, including 7 as a assistant district attorney and two as a public defender.

Barring any unusual circumstances (such as an active protection order against the shouter), it is not illegal to shout at a kid.

[doubletoe]

Glad Mr. Yelling Coach has calmed down! You and your daughter (and her coach) deserve lots of credit for your diplomacy and patience! BTW, I hope my post didn't sound like I was implying that your daughter failed to yield. From your original post, it was clear that she did everything she could to get out of the way as soon as she saw the other skater coming. :)

[Skate@Delaware]

I've been a practicing attorney for 24 years, including 7 as a assistant district attorney and two as a public defender.

Barring any unusual circumstances (such as an active protection order against the shouter), it is not illegal to shout at a kid.
And many rinks now abide by the "Fair Play" standards where yelling & screaming at the kids is considered bullying and can get you banned (it happened at my rink to a dad).
Glad Mr. Yelling Coach has calmed down! You and your daughter (and her coach) deserve lots of credit for your diplomacy and patience! BTW, I hope my post didn't sound like I was implying that your daughter failed to yield. From your original post, it was clear that she did everything she could to get out of the way as soon as she saw the other skater coming. :)
I'm glad things calmed down and glad to see some skaters still go by the rules (we need enforcement at my rink before someone gets seriously hurt).

[sk8tmum]

I'm glad things calmed down and glad to see some skaters still go by the rules (we need enforcement at my rink before someone gets seriously hurt).

ITA. My kid is the one who got seriously hurt by someone not respecting ROW rules. We are currently managing with having a full leg brace, looking at months of rehab, and will be skating with a patella brace for quite some time due to a skater who thought herself "more important" than another skater doing a run-through - and even yelled "EXCUSE ME" as my kid hit the ice (my kid had ROW). Due to her actions, my kid is sidelined and missing valuable training and competition time, and is in a great deal of pain.

ROW rules are important; they are there for everyone's protection. In fact, if my kid hadn't aborted the jump that caused the injury, the violating skater would have been seriously injured herself. Note that this a skater who regularly does this sort of thing, and has yet to be addressed by the club.

So, you know, I do get where coaches get frustrated with skaters who risk other's safety repeatedly and without taking ownership for their actions, however, no, you don't yell at them ... unless it's to tell them "HEADSUP" if quick action is needed as they are in danger due to a skater with ROW, say, setting up a 2LZ blind who is going to injure both themselves and the skater in the way if the skater who is in the way doesn't move quickly. Doesn't sound like that was the case with the OP, though, sounds like her kid was doing what she was supposed to do, and more.

[Isk8NYC]

I'm well-hated for it, but I've approached beginning freestylists who camp out on the lutz circles and told them the rules, especially if I've never seen them with a coach. All my students are told the rules and reminded if they get in the way, but coaches don't always have the opportunity with new students to cover the ground rules before they get on a freestyle.

My problem is that my students yield even when they have right of way. They stop completely and waste lesson time. I'm constantly saying "just say excuse me nicely and go around him/her!"

[Query]

If an adult man came onto a playground and started chasing down kids not his own, other adults would presume it was in order to kidnap the children or do them harm, and the police would be called. Other adults would likely try to restrain the man, to prevent immediate harm to the children. I see little difference. But I have to accept the legal opinion of those who know that nothing was illegal in this case. (If the coach kept this sort of thing up, he will eventually run into someone who take immediate violent action against him that in turn goes beyond legal bounds, but that is besides the point.)

All public facilities should ban such activities. Regardless of the law, it's not good business to let people who harasser others stay, because everyone else has good reason to be concerned with their safety and that of others in the presence of nut cases. (I ignore contexts like hockey games or playing tag where chasing others down is part of the rules of play.)

As an aside, in most rinks I've skated in, the rules of right of way (e.g., that students in lessons have it, or sometimes that the center circle of a public session is for jump and spin practice) are mostly conventions enforced by coaches, and occasionally by rink guards, rather than being posted rules. In the absence of posted rules it isn't always reasonable to assume that everyone knows them, or has exactly the same understanding of how they work and in what priority they apply - even in a freestyle session. (Few people read facility rules anyway.)

[Mrs Redboots]

If an adult man came onto a playground and started chasing down kids not his own, other adults would presume it was in order to kidnap the children or do them harm, and the police would be called. Other adults would likely try to restrain the man, to prevent immediate harm to the children. I see little difference.

Surely the more accurate parallel would be if a teacher in a school playground started yelling at a child from another class? The individual in question has been employed by the skater (or by his or her parents) to teach that skater; it may or may not have been inappropriate for him to yell at another skater (I don't know; I wasn't there), but it isn't as if he was just randomly on the ice. He was there to do a job of work.

[Skate@Delaware]

I'm well-hated for it, but I've approached beginning freestylists who camp out on the lutz circles and told them the rules, especially if I've never seen them with a coach. All my students are told the rules and reminded if they get in the way, but coaches don't always have the opportunity with new students to cover the ground rules before they get on a freestyle.

My problem is that my students yield even when they have right of way. They stop completely and waste lesson time. I'm constantly saying "just say excuse me nicely and go around him/her!"
After fighting with the parents & club over the rules, I think we are finally making some headway. After I was run over (I was in a lesson & spinning) two kids ran into me (they thought I would move-I did not). I filed a complaint, which went no where (was told that adults should be mindful off the kids and move 8O). I said "no way-I had the right of way, they were playing games"

Another accident happened when some of the kids skated backwards without looking and collided into each other-both were knocked down, one was cut.

Now the club is concerned about the rules but has yet to take action. One of the coaches did tell me that they are planning a mandatory safety meeting before ice resumes next fall. And no one will be permitted onto the ice unless they and their parents had attended. At least it's something.

And they are adding low-level ice (gamma and below plus Adults) and restricting the higher level ice (Freestyle 1 and above). Hopefully, that might help although some of the worst offenders are at the higher levels.

[RachelSk8er]

And they are adding low-level ice (gamma and below plus Adults) and restricting the higher level ice (Freestyle 1 and above). Hopefully, that might help although some of the worst offenders are at the higher levels.

Um, what do they mean by gamma and below "plus adults"? Please tell me they are not trying to lump all adult skater regardless of level in with low level kids.

[Kim to the Max]

My problem is that my students yield even when they have right of way. They stop completely and waste lesson time. I'm constantly saying "just say excuse me nicely and go around him/her!"

I find that I sometimes do that too. :( Although, last night I was in such a mood (I'm testing Junior moves for the 4th time this Saturday) and almost hit one of the coaches because she wasn't watching where she was going (I started my pattern and I was in a lesson, she was at the boards, then decided to skate in front of me as I was gaining a lot of speed to go into my choctaws). Then I was doing power pulls (still in my lesson) and one of her students almost did an axel into me :( I almost took out a couple of other kids last night who weren't watching where they were going too...I struggle because I am hyper vigilant about watching and getting out of people's ways and I find that others don't do that for me. ...I can't wait for these kids to get onto Junior/Senior moves and have people in their way all the time so that they know what I have gone through the past year...

[Isk8NYC]

Um, what do they mean by gamma and below "plus adults"? Please tell me they are not trying to lump all adult skater regardless of level in with low level kids.
It means any adults who haven't tested will skate the lower session. Otherwise they'd be eligible for "Freeskate 1 and above" sessions.

[RachelSk8er]

It means any adults who haven't tested will skate the lower session. Otherwise they'd be eligible for "Freeskate 1 and above" sessions.

Not always, you never know what rink staff or club officers have in their heads when they are designating sessions, especially if they are used to seeing mostly adult skaters who are beginner-pre bronze and suddenly and adult skater with some higher tests shows up. Last summer one of the monitors for summer ice time at my rink tried to tell me I couldn't do the pre-juv free and above sessions (even though I had my pre-juv free) because we had adult sessions for adult skaters. (It wasn't that I wasn't "allowed" on these sessions, it was just that the monitor was a skating mom who didn't really know what she was doing.)

[Isk8NYC]

I've been in the "prove you belong here" situation before; simply explaining my credentials and showing my IDs sufficed. Some rinks won't let you on Freestyle sessions without a USFSA membership card and a certain USFSA test, but I explained the ISI equivalents and they were okay with that. There are plenty of places with rules - just know before you go and be prepared with a polite response if anyone challenges you. You can always ask them to call someone with more authority, just be nice about it.

I wouldn't assume that S@D is in the same situation, especially given the fact that their freestyle sessions are "no rules" now. One confused volunteer ice monitor in your area does not mean that everyone's out to get all adults herded with the tots. I'm sure it wasn't meant as a slight or an insult - people in Delaware are very nice.

Plus, the cutoff in question is ISI Freestyle 1, not Pre-Juvenile. We're talking one-foot spins and waltz jumps on the high-level session. There's a world of difference between those two levels.

I don't know if it's the same rink, but I was almost run down on a freestyle session with S@D while leaving the ice when the session ended. They signaled the end by driving the zamboni onto the ice really fast. That's when the crazy pairs team decided that they had to do one last runthrough, almost blindsiding me as I was heading for the exit door. It's like the Wild, Wild West in Delaware, lol.

I'm sure enforcement will be spotty.

[Isk8NYC]

I can't wait for these kids to get onto Junior/Senior moves and have people in their way all the time so that they know what I have gone through the past year...Won't happen, they'll just continue to get in the way of others. I've seen it over and over.

There's this mental block that some skaters have where they can't deviate an inch from their pattern, whether to avoid other skaters/coaches or to miss a huge divot in the ice. If the axel in their program is across the red line in the center, that's the only place that they can practice it, over and over. A little flexibility and being able to think on your feet seems to be a better skill than being compulsive, but what do I know?

I always wish that the skaters practicing diagonal moves would just give the coaches in the center a heads up before they start the pattern. I never know if they're going to do the entire thing or just one diagonal.

If I'm teaching spins in the center, I don't mind moving over to give them room, but the "X" patterns that criss-cross the center makes it completely unusuable, so we have to scamper out of the way over and over. Several times, I've abandoned the center entirely, but the skater just does one diagonal and then switches to another pattern where our new location is in the way. Then THEY get frustrated - I want to tell them "I'm not just moving myself, I have to also move a skater who might not be able to get out of the way on their own, without wasting their lesson time."

I wish they would create a "Moves and Ice Dance" session at our rink, but there probably aren't enough skaters. They're already letting beginning tot skaters take lessons on freestyles to try and get a good count.

[RachelSk8er]

I've been in the "prove you belong here" situation before; simply explaining my credentials and showing my IDs sufficed. Some rinks won't let you on Freestyle sessions without a USFSA membership card and a certain USFSA test, but I explained the ISI equivalents and they were okay with that. There are plenty of places with rules - just know before you go and be prepared with a polite response if anyone challenges you. You can always ask them to call someone with more authority, just be nice about it.

I wouldn't assume that S@D is in the same situation, especially given the fact that their freestyle sessions are "no rules" now. One confused volunteer ice monitor in your area does not mean that everyone's out to get all adults herded with the tots. I'm sure it wasn't meant as a slight or an insult - people in Delaware are very nice.

Plus, the cutoff in question is ISI Freestyle 1, not Pre-Juvenile. We're talking one-foot spins and waltz jumps on the high-level session. There's a world of difference between those two levels.

I don't know if it's the same rink, but I was almost run down on a freestyle session with S@D while leaving the ice when the session ended. They signaled the end by driving the zamboni onto the ice really fast. That's when the crazy pairs team decided that they had to do one last runthrough, almost blindsiding me as I was heading for the exit door. It's like the Wild, Wild West in Delaware, lol.

I'm sure enforcement will be spotty.

Can I spit your own advice back at you? "Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill here by playing tit-for-tat." Please practice what you preach.

[Skate@Delaware]

Um, what do they mean by gamma and below "plus adults"? Please tell me they are not trying to lump all adult skater regardless of level in with low level kids.
They have (incorrectly) assumed that the adults skating at the rink are ALL low-level. I mentioned that I am Freestyle 2 (working on 3) and will soon be working on my lutz & axel. To which they did this 8O and had nothing further to say. There are adults in the LTS classes that are low-level. We are not all in the same category.
It means any adults who haven't tested will skate the lower session. Otherwise they'd be eligible for "Freeskate 1 and above" sessions.
Only if tested at the appropriate level. My coach tests me, the rink tests the LTS adults. They said they would keep a roster---how this will work, I'm not sure. Maybe they will code your badge? Not sure at this point.
I've been in the "prove you belong here" situation before; simply explaining my credentials and showing my IDs sufficed. Some rinks won't let you on Freestyle sessions without a USFSA membership card and a certain USFSA test, but I explained the ISI equivalents and they were okay with that. There are plenty of places with rules - just know before you go and be prepared with a polite response if anyone challenges you. You can always ask them to call someone with more authority, just be nice about it.

I wouldn't assume that S@D is in the same situation, especially given the fact that their freestyle sessions are "no rules" now. One confused volunteer ice monitor in your area does not mean that everyone's out to get all adults herded with the tots. I'm sure it wasn't meant as a slight or an insult - people in Delaware are very nice.

Plus, the cutoff in question is ISI Freestyle 1, not Pre-Juvenile. We're talking one-foot spins and waltz jumps on the high-level session. There's a world of difference between those two levels.

I don't know if it's the same rink, but I was almost run down on a freestyle session with S@D while leaving the ice when the session ended. They signaled the end by driving the zamboni onto the ice really fast. That's when the crazy pairs team decided that they had to do one last runthrough, almost blindsiding me as I was heading for the exit door. It's like the Wild, Wild West in Delaware, lol.

I'm sure enforcement will be spotty.
Yes, we are very nice down here in Delaware. Or try to be!

Enforcement has been spotty, it was when this method was tried previously. The monitor took your word that you were eligible for the appropriate session. Which meant everyone went on whether Snowplow level or Freestyle 6 (USFS).

I do remember that session, I was like "WHAT????" Their management changed hands and I don't think they do that any longer (hope not) and The Pond is stricter with their rules. When our kids go elsewhere, they are amazed that there are RULES to freestyle! Can't imagine why they would think that (haha being sarcastic).

All I can say is-they need to enforce the rules, make sure the parents understand the rules and get their kids to agree/follow them and the rink needs to buck up and make sure everyone is on the appropriate session.

Yes, it's nice they added ONE low level session per week. We need it at this point in time. Plus, for now, we are not restricted from doing freestyle moves/jumps/spins on public sessions, provided they are not too crowded (and common sense prevails-crowded sessions=no camels, back spirals, lutz jumps etc).

[isakswings]

Our rink has a star skater who is working on her triples. Her coach always yells at her in every lessons. Sometimes she cries and refuses to continue but her mom makes her to do it. This afternoon in a FS session, my daughter (a lefty) was trying to set up her double loop. This skater and her coach, who was following her and yelling, skated very fast toward my daughter. My daughter saw her and aborted her jump while the star skater also decided to abort. Her coach then started to follow my daughter for 2/3 of the rink and yelled at her. Basically saying they have the right of the way and she needs to watch...blah blah.

I was taping my daughter at that time because she has trouble with the double loop. We reviewed the tape and cannot see anything wrong with my daughter so I told our coach. Our coach said that just half hour ago, her other student who was in a lesson, also got yelled by this coach. So our coach was upset and call this coach to leave a message.

Now...I regretted ever mentioning this to our coach because this coach may do or say something to me next time me or my daughter is the on ice. If he does say something rude, what shall I respond? I am getting very nervous about what will happen next week....

By the way, I have praised this star skater in front of her mom several times before. I enjoy watching her. Her mom is very pushy to her own child but she is a nice person otherwise. I hope this accident will not cause any tension between us either.

Thank you for any suggestions.

Oh boy do I understand this senario! We had a similar incident last year while my daughter was in lesson with her coach and preparing for an upcoming competition. The other coach did not yell at my daughter, but sent roughly 10 skaters doing ladders towards my dd who was begining her program! Dd aborted her program and moved out of the way. Dd's coach was livid(as was I!). It just so happened that the rink manager wittnessed this and took action. The other coach ended up apologizing to me and was quite cautious around us for some time. I too, worried about how things would be after the fact. Honestly, it hasn't always been easy but it's been OK too. I think you have every right to speak up and be upset. You pay the same for her ice time and she deserves the same respect that the higher level skater does. If they want the ice all to themselves, maybe they should rent some private ice time! It's great that the skater is so advancec, but that doesn't mean they own the ice. HUGS ot you and your daughter. Yelling at her was NOT ok!

[drskater]

I bet we all have stories and experiences that jibe with the OP and the subsequent comments on this thread. I skate at two rink and I must say that people are pretty respectful of skaters on lesson or program. My main beef is that there seems to be an unwritten rule that kids have the right of way over adults. The kids at my rink always assume that I'm yielding to them (sadly, they are usually right) and will skate right through me. I'm not talking about high level or low level skaters--I mean kids at my level or below.

[GoSveta]

I bet we all have stories and experiences that jibe with the OP and the subsequent comments on this thread. I skate at two rink and I must say that people are pretty respectful of skaters on lesson or program. My main beef is that there seems to be an unwritten rule that kids have the right of way over adults. The kids at my rink always assume that I'm yielding to them (sadly, they are usually right) and will skate right through me. I'm not talking about high level or low level skaters--I mean kids at my level or below.
I know exactly how that feels! Lol.

[doubletoe]

Not always, you never know what rink staff or club officers have in their heads when they are designating sessions, especially if they are used to seeing mostly adult skaters who are beginner-pre bronze and suddenly and adult skater with some higher tests shows up. Last summer one of the monitors for summer ice time at my rink tried to tell me I couldn't do the pre-juv free and above sessions (even though I had my pre-juv free) because we had adult sessions for adult skaters. (It wasn't that I wasn't "allowed" on these sessions, it was just that the monitor was a skating mom who didn't really know what she was doing.)

So if Michelle Kwan had shown up to skate, she would have been told the same thing, because she is over 25, right? :lol:

[fsk8r]

I bet we all have stories and experiences that jibe with the OP and the subsequent comments on this thread. I skate at two rink and I must say that people are pretty respectful of skaters on lesson or program. My main beef is that there seems to be an unwritten rule that kids have the right of way over adults. The kids at my rink always assume that I'm yielding to them (sadly, they are usually right) and will skate right through me. I'm not talking about high level or low level skaters--I mean kids at my level or below.

I thought it was just because adults are invisible? The number of kids who skate right through me when they're just skating forwards is amazing. I'm convinced that I must just be invisible as it can't all be gravity.

[Skate@Delaware]

I thought it was just because adults are invisible? The number of kids who skate right through me when they're just skating forwards is amazing. I'm convinced that I must just be invisible as it can't all be gravity.

I think its because they either know or expect us to yield. My coach has been working on this with me-telling me I have the right away and to go ahead with my moves. Kids that are just skating +/or playing games should yield...sometimes they do, sometimes not.

There are a few skaters at my rink that abide by the rules, yell out "excuse me" or "sorry" as appropriate. One young skater yelled out "MOVE!" when she was just skating around with her friends-for that I did not move (and will refuse to do so for kids playing). Had she said "excuse me" I would have scooted a bit. She is one of the worst offenders at the rink. Yes it's rude of me but I'm getting tired of them playing games. (done venting)

[fsk8r]

I think its because they either know or expect us to yield. My coach has been working on this with me-telling me I have the right away and to go ahead with my moves. Kids that are just skating +/or playing games should yield...sometimes they do, sometimes not.

There are a few skaters at my rink that abide by the rules, yell out "excuse me" or "sorry" as appropriate. One young skater yelled out "MOVE!" when she was just skating around with her friends-for that I did not move (and will refuse to do so for kids playing). Had she said "excuse me" I would have scooted a bit. She is one of the worst offenders at the rink. Yes it's rude of me but I'm getting tired of them playing games. (done venting)

If I can add to my own venting, it's the people who shout "excuse me" when there's piles of space and you're nowhere near them which also annoy me.
The ones who go around saying "sorry" as they're going around (and when I'm the one doing the moving and they're in lesson) who are the ones I like.

But I don't think for some of these annoying kids (and adults) it's anything to do with expecting the other person to move, I put it down to plain bad manners. I've noticed that some kids get better as they get older and I'll start to forgive their earlier indiscretion, the adults tend to just get worse. But I'll use these adults for jump target bait especially if I'm in lesson and have right of way.

[Skate@Delaware]

If I can add to my own venting, it's the people who shout "excuse me" when there's piles of space and you're nowhere near them which also annoy me.
The ones who go around saying "sorry" as they're going around (and when I'm the one doing the moving and they're in lesson) who are the ones I like.

But I don't think for some of these annoying kids (and adults) it's anything to do with expecting the other person to move, I put it down to plain bad manners. I've noticed that some kids get better as they get older and I'll start to forgive their earlier indiscretion, the adults tend to just get worse. But I'll use these adults for jump target bait especially if I'm in lesson and have right of way.
I've noticed that the ones that follow the rules and are correct, are the ones that skate at other rinks (with enforced rules). Our adults are pretty good, they usually bail/give way. The new adults (as in-new to freestyle sessions) tend to hug the end zone so they don't get in the way or get creamed.

What was really funny? Once during PUBLIC SESSION a coach and skater expected EVERYONE ELSE to yield to them during their lesson & program run-thru. I told the coach that the "PUBLIC" doesn't know the FREESTYLE rules, and there are no expectations that they would, and they should not be expected to YIELD during a PUBLIC session! I didn't yield either. She fumed & complained but the skating director (and rink director) both told her "no, they cannot yield to you & your skater" during public sessions. Can you believe that?

[Query]

I thought the "accepted" rules were mostly the same during all types of session at most rinks.

[Skittl1321]

Our freestyle sessions go by the generally accepted conventions of yielding to skater in lesson, yielding to skate in program, stay out of lutz corners, but there is no actual rules at my rink or by the club at the rink (though freestyle sessions are rink run, not club run.) At my former club's rink, it was the same thing, though on CLUB sessions you had to sign a "rules" statement that you understood R-O-W conventions.

On public sessions, these conventions absolutely do not apply. Most public skaters don't have the ability to yield, but even if they could, they have no way of knowing such rules exist. Our rink does not limit elements, but it's up to the skater and coach to determine if what they are doing is safe for the session. Many rinks have rules for public sessions about the direction they can skate, freestyle in the center, etc. Our rink doesn't do any of that and it is a gigantic free for all if it's crowded. We only have 2 hours of freestyle and 1 hour of club ice a week, but so most skaters have to take lessons on publics- they just know which ones are never crowded, and which ones should be avoided at all cost.

[sk8tmum]

Well ... after 8 years in various rinks ... never heard of a "lutz corner" excepting here on the boards. :)

We yield to skater with music/then skater in lesson/then skater in lesson with music in that order from least to most right of way, with the coaches themselves having ABSOLUTE right of way over everyone.

[fsk8r]

Well ... after 8 years in various rinks ... never heard of a "lutz corner" excepting here on the boards. :)

We yield to skater with music/then skater in lesson/then skater in lesson with music in that order from least to most right of way, with the coaches themselves having ABSOLUTE right of way over everyone.

That sounds like my rink. Spins tend to happen in hockey circles which puts pay to the lutz corner idea a lot of the time, but coaches tend to stake out their spot on a hockey circle where they conduct their lessons (jumps and spins) and everyone else just moves around them.

[Skittl1321]

with the coaches themselves having ABSOLUTE right of way over everyone.

Seriously? It bugs me to no end when I have to go off pattern (especially while I'm in lesson) because a coach is standing right on the long axis of the rink watching his/her skater halfway across the rink doing a jump.

Why should a coach have right of way? They could do that just as well at the boards!


(ETA: I'm not saying coaches should stay at the boards- MOST of our coaches stay with their skaters. But if the skater is on the other side of the rink, I shouldn't have to yield to their coach!)

[Skate@Delaware]

I thought the "accepted" rules were mostly the same during all types of session at most rinks.
Not on public sessions. There are the general rules for that: no horseplay, no pucks etc. But like skittle said the public has NO idea what freestyle rules are. Nor should they!
Seriously? It bugs me to no end when I have to go off pattern (especially while I'm in lesson) because a coach is standing right on the long axis of the rink watching his/her skater halfway across the rink doing a jump.

Why should a coach have right of way? They could do that just as well at the boards!
Our rink has rules (unenforced but we do have them) that states the coach must be next to the boards whenever possible. The exceptions are: when shadowing skaters skating moves, etc. And it is up to the COACH to ask other skaters to yield by yelling EXCUSE ME or telling their skater to WATCH OUT! when there are tots in the way (believe me, they don't know to move).

[Isk8NYC]

I always "shadow" with low-level skaters during their lessons, especially if they're small. Some of it is keeping their attention - they're easily distracted by the flying camel. I also worry about them being mowed down or unable to get out of the way on our "one size fits all" freestyle sessions. I don't consider it as my student getting "right of way," but I do consider myself to be an obstacle to skaters who might not see the small child on a lesson. I'll even take their hand when I move to a safe place because I don't want to leave them vulnerable. It only takes one bad experience like a collision to turn a young child off to skating.

When students are doing moves patterns, I skate next to them for part of the pattern to do feedback and corrections. Reminding a skater to "point on the underpush" is more effective if it's done while they're still skating. I'll drop back and move to the wall, but I can't always tell where another skater's pattern is going to go - for example, I have my skaters do the PM spirals in four lobes, but some skaters do it in six. Ice Dance - I can't instantly know the pattern just by music or a few steps.

During program runthroughs, I shadow for the first couple of practices, then I stay in the box or at the boards.

Sometimes, you move out of one person's way, only to find that you're in someone else's. I had that happen while I was teaching yesterday - one skater started the diagonal choctaw pattern, so after she passed, I moved my student over to the side, where she'd be out of the way on the return. I had no idea that another skater had decided to stop practicing her ice dance to start the same moves pattern, so we were in HER way.

I really think that high-level moves sessions make a lot of sense.

[Skate@Delaware]

I like it when my coach shadows me during moves, it makes it easy to hear her when she hollers out tips close to me rather than across a rink or after the fact.

My rink is at a crossroads as far as hi/low level skaters. We are just now getting skaters capable of doubles and they are now testing moves and dance. It took seven years and a complete change of skating direction to get to this point. I'm glad to see it (but I think we could have gotten to this point earlier but we were roadblocked).

The problem is changing the mindset from "recreation" and "do whatever you want" on freestyle ice to "follow the rules" thinking and getting into a training mentality (vs. goofing off). At this point, very few of the girls pursue any off-ice training (exercise, strength, dance, etc). We don't have a rink gym or even a gym in the same town (it's a hick town LOL). No one warms up off-ice before they get ON the ice. Not even at competitions ((sigh)). We are not there yet and sadly it shows.

[Kat12]

Well ... after 8 years in various rinks ... never heard of a "lutz corner" excepting here on the boards.

Funny thing I've noticed is that I've had lessons on freestyle ice at two different rinks and have not seen skaters wearing any sort of vest that shows their music is up, though I've read that this is how it works. I spent a lot of time at my last class trying to figure out who all the different music belonged to. You'd think it'd be easy because you hear the same music each week, but just when I thought I'd see somebody who looked like they were skating a program, they'd stop but the music wouldn't, and then I'd see somebody ELSE who looked like they might be skating a program...I never did figure out who most of the now-familiar music belonged to!