Picking Behind (flip & toe-loop)

[Skate@Delaware]

I've been struggling with this (picking behind) for a while. I just recently learned the flip so that's 2 jumps that pick behind. Here's my problem...I pick too close to my skating foot. I know that I should bend more and pick further behind me but for some reason it's not happening. When I do pick, I get the transfer of weight so that isn't an issue.

Anyone have tips/techniques on or off ice for helping to fix this?

[fsk8r]

I've been struggling with this (picking behind) for a while. I just recently learned the flip so that's 2 jumps that pick behind. Here's my problem...I pick too close to my skating foot. I know that I should bend more and pick further behind me but for some reason it's not happening. When I do pick, I get the transfer of weight so that isn't an issue.

Anyone have tips/techniques on or off ice for helping to fix this?

I'm told to walk the motion. So I just pick behind and either moonwalk back (to get the pull back movement) or just jump up. The focus I'm having for my flip is to get the weight transfer, but I did the same exercise when I was first learning the jump to get the pick far enough behind. I find that doing this without the jumping lets me focus on just the picking and body position.

[vesperholly]

Anyone have tips/techniques on or off ice for helping to fix this?

A coach I teach with showed me this trick: Skate slowly backwards on one foot (whichever is the non-picking foot). Reach back with the picking foot, pick in and slowly draw the feet together. Repeat. It works better for the flip than the toe loop.

The problem could also be coming from the entry. If you're rushing, you could be drawing your feet together before you really get off the ground. Walk through the jumps slowly, focusing on the down-up-down motion of the three turn.

[RachelSk8er]

Think of bending the skating knee and drawing the toe you're picking with back while keeping it low, and keeping your skating leg bent. If you get this concept down on your flip, it will help you when you get to your lutz. There's nothing worse than a toe jump where the skater comes way up in the skating leg while free leg comes way up and then jabs into the ice.

[Skate@Delaware]

A coach I teach with showed me this trick: Skate slowly backwards on one foot (whichever is the non-picking foot). Reach back with the picking foot, pick in and slowly draw the feet together. Repeat. It works better for the flip than the toe loop.

The problem could also be coming from the entry. If you're rushing, you could be drawing your feet together before you really get off the ground. Walk through the jumps slowly, focusing on the down-up-down motion of the three turn.
Not rushing, just skating like an adult (stiff legs hahaha). My entry is a 3-turn with a 2/3 count: LFO edge 1-2-(turn)-1-2-(hopefully pick).....

When I draw the feet together, should they end up side-by-side or crossed (backspin position)?

[vesperholly]

When I draw the feet together, should they end up side-by-side or crossed (backspin position)?

Ever so slightly crossed, with your left heel (CCW flip) to the right of your right toes. You don't want to cross tightly, or let the left foot go completely sideways to the right foot, because in the jump you're going to lift up the knee before the foot reaches that position. Also, you want to keep your weight forward while doing this, don't pull the shoulders back.

[Skittl1321]

Here's my problem...I pick too close to my skating foot.

How close do you pick? I have the opposite problem- I pick too far out. I don't feel like I am, and I'm not TRYING to extend out, it's just wear the foot goes. My coach always comes up and asks me if I'm going for a quad. I guess based on what he's telling me, it's not possible to pick too close, as long as (for toe loop... I rarely work on flip yet) as long as you can still get the pivot.

[katz in boots]

My last coach told me that I must not draw the feet together, that I must lead with my left knee (CCW) through before pushing off the right toe-pick.

Prior to this I always thought I was to pull back until my left foot met my right before jumping. Totally confused now.

[antmanb]

My last coach told me that I must not draw the feet together, that I must lead with my left knee (CCW) through before pushing off the right toe-pick.

Prior to this I always thought I was to pull back until my left foot met my right before jumping. Totally confused now.

My coach will often tell me to do something (that isn't quite what she wants me to do) as a correction for an error i'm making.

On the flip - i used to two foot the take off - i'd draw the non-picking foot back level with the picking foot and sometimes past and even around the skating foot so the tracing on the ice would show a clear curve around the spike in the ice where i had picked in.

In order to get me to stop doing it she made me think "pick" and "lift left knee" at the same time. So while i don't pick and lift the left knee in the same moment - it shortened the draw back to a "normal" amount and stopped me two footing the take off.

Every now and then i go back to spending longer than I should on the take off edge and we think about lifting the knee again.

Same with comments on things like my salchow - she will say kick through straight not around and we'll both acknowledge that in thinking "straight through" you won't actualy kick straight through there will be some "around", but since i get too much "around" if i think "straight" i get it just right.

Ant

[vesperholly]

Prior to this I always thought I was to pull back until my left foot met my right before jumping. Totally confused now.

As I understand it, the "pull back" exercise is more to work on keeping the glide going as you pick in. I see a lot of skaters learning toe loops and flips that stop dead the second they put the toe in, and they jump off two feet. If you wait until your feet are together before jumping up, you won't get any distance.

And I agree with Ant, your coach may be telling you to do something not so logical/overexaggerated the other way, to counteract what you're doing wrong.

[katz in boots]

And I agree with Ant, your coach may be telling you to do something not so logical/overexaggerated the other way, to counteract what you're doing wrong.

Hmm, maybe. But this was right from the beginning, before I started working on the jump with her. Of course, she would've seen me doing it in practise...

[SkatEn]

I have a similar question...

But it's more of a tracing kind of question.

Which tracing should a flip leave, assuming the skater skate CCW?

Maroon tracings for the picking, purple for the landing

http://i43.tinypic.com/ad0sb9.jpg

Does the OP means that she picks like 1 and 2?

What does it mean to pick like 2, and land like 3?

[fsk8r]

I have a similar question...

But it's more of a tracing kind of question.

Which tracing should a flip leave, assuming the skater skate CCW?

Maroon tracings for the picking, purple for the landing

http://i43.tinypic.com/ad0sb9.jpg

Does the OP means that she picks like 1 and 2?

What does it mean to pick like 2, and land like 3?

Well I know 2 is cheated and wouldn't count under IJS because that's what i'm trying not to do.

[Skate@Delaware]

Wow! tons of tips/responses and bunches questions!
How close do you pick? I have the opposite problem- I pick too far out. I don't feel like I am, and I'm not TRYING to extend out, it's just wear the foot goes. My coach always comes up and asks me if I'm going for a quad. I guess based on what he's telling me, it's not possible to pick too close, as long as (for toe loop... I rarely work on flip yet) as long as you can still get the pivot.
Although I intend to pick far out, I practically pick just behind my foot. I 3-turn, bend down but not far enough and my pick is maybe 3-6" behind me (not really behind...see below) because by then, I've straightened up and it's messed up....a real train wreck!
(snipped)In order to get me to stop doing it she made me think "pick" and "lift left knee" at the same time. So while i don't pick and lift the left knee in the same moment - it shortened the draw back to a "normal" amount and stopped me two footing the take off.

Every now and then i go back to spending longer than I should on the take off edge and we think about lifting the knee again.

Same with comments on things like my salchow - she will say kick through straight not around and we'll both acknowledge that in thinking "straight through" you won't actualy kick straight through there will be some "around", but since i get too much "around" if i think "straight" i get it just right.

Ant
I like this-I don't "lift" the left knee at all (I don't really think about doing anything with it really-just concentrating on not falling haha). I get the weight shift ok, I will work on incorporating this-perhaps more off ice then on ice. As for the salchow, I also had to work on the kick-more like you I had to kick like I'm doing a waltz jump in order for it to go where it's supposed to.
I have a similar question...

But it's more of a tracing kind of question.

Which tracing should a flip leave, assuming the skater skate CCW?

Maroon tracings for the picking, purple for the landing

Does the OP means that she picks like 1 and 2?

What does it mean to pick like 2, and land like 3?
#1 is me, for sure! This is only for the flip however. For the toe-loop, it's #4 and my toe-loop is good and the landing one is #1. On the toe-loop I'm even working on lifting the left leg, because I've worked on that jump such a long time I can "autopilot" easier and not have to concentrate 1,000% on everything, just 500% on certain things LOL!

[doubletoe]

A few things to try on your flip:

1) To make sure you are picking in the right place on your circle, do a LFO 3-turn on one of the hockey circles, staying on the circle as you exit the 3-turn and reach back to pick. Now pick as though you are doing a flip (you can just pop up and land on two feet). Look at your pick mark. It should be on the circle, not inside the circle or outside the circle.

2) To keep from picking too close:
(a) Keep your back arched and upright; do not lean forward. I find that it helps to imagine someone is pulling me back by my bra strap. I also keep the left arm high and right in front of me and make sure I can still see the fingers of my left hand when my pick goes into the ice.
(b) Bend your left knee deeply as you reach back to pick, and keep your weight on the heel of your left foot.
(c) On the entrance edge, keep your picking leg locked out straight behind you, with the foot pointed straight down toward the ice and held just a few inches above the ice. Do NOT lift the foot just before picking; stick it in directly from that pointed, held position and pull yourself back and up.

[vesperholly]

#1 is me, for sure! This is only for the flip however. For the toe-loop, it's #4 and my toe-loop is good and the landing one is #1. On the toe-loop I'm even working on lifting the left leg, because I've worked on that jump such a long time I can "autopilot" easier and not have to concentrate 1,000% on everything, just 500% on certain things LOL!

#1 on a flip entrance is very common. It's usually caused by one (or several) of a few things:

failure to keep the right shoulder checked back after the 3-turn
dropping the right shoulder and/or hip during or after the 3-turn
delay in picking causing the edge to curve too much
a too-curvy 3-turn that doesn't check on the backward edge

Any of these sound like you? :) It could even be that you're reaching back far enough, but other factors are causing you to pick too close.

(BTW, am I the only one who doesn't get the landing drawings? I thought those were toe loop takeoffs until I read the text. Is the circle a toe pick mark??)

[Audryb]

I don't get the landing drawings either!

[Skate@Delaware]

#1 on a flip entrance is very common. It's usually caused by one (or several) of a few things:

failure to keep the right shoulder checked back after the 3-turn
dropping the right shoulder and/or hip during or after the 3-turn
delay in picking causing the edge to curve too much
a too-curvy 3-turn that doesn't check on the backward edge

Any of these sound like you? :) It could even be that you're reaching back far enough, but other factors are causing you to pick too close.

(BTW, am I the only one who doesn't get the landing drawings? I thought those were toe loop takeoffs until I read the text. Is the circle a toe pick mark??)
I assumed that the circle was meant to be a toe pick mark. I do tend to drop my right shoulder when I do the jump...when I do just the 3-turn I don't. I think it's a matter of overload and too many things to concentrate on.
A few things to try on your flip:

1) To make sure you are picking in the right place on your circle, do a LFO 3-turn on one of the hockey circles, staying on the circle as you exit the 3-turn and reach back to pick. Now pick as though you are doing a flip (you can just pop up and land on two feet). Look at your pick mark. It should be on the circle, not inside the circle or outside the circle.

2) To keep from picking too close:
(a) Keep your back arched and upright; do not lean forward. I find that it helps to imagine someone is pulling me back by my bra strap. I also keep the left arm high and right in front of me and make sure I can still see the fingers of my left hand when my pick goes into the ice.
(b) Bend your left knee deeply as you reach back to pick, and keep your weight on the heel of your left foot.
(c) On the entrance edge, keep your picking leg locked out straight behind you, with the foot pointed straight down toward the ice and held just a few inches above the ice. Do NOT lift the foot just before picking; stick it in directly from that pointed, held position and pull yourself back and up.
Coach has had me re-learn the 3-turns (was taught incorrectly YEARS ago) and I am doing them on the circle....I am to cover 1/2 the circle making sure entrance/exit are about equal. I will look to see where I'm picking (I'm pretty sure it will not be on the line LOL).
2(a) I do drop my right shoulder when I do the flip (but not the 3-turn), I haven't focused on the left arm
2(b) I haven't done this, as far as I know my weight is about mid-foot, so this might help
2(c) I know I bend my leg, which compounds the issue but I will try hard to correct it. It comes from a few years back when we were told we could not JAB into the ice (we were not allowed to make holes in the ice).

I'm suddenly finding the loop so much easier since I've started working on the flip....I cannot imagine what horrors are in store when we start on the lutz and the axel 8O

[Sessy]

This thread needs to be stickied. :twisted:

[Audryb]

Can someone explain the landing drawings? Why would there be a random toe-pick mark off to the side of the END of the landing?

[Skate@Delaware]

This thread needs to be stickied. :twisted:
I agree! We should have stickies for each skating thing!
Can someone explain the landing drawings? Why would there be a random toe-pick mark off to the side of the END of the landing?
I thought that the circle was the "pick" and the line was the glide out....and that it was upside down in relation to the other drawings.

[Skate@Delaware]

I enhanced the drawing, hope this makes it better. My apologies to the original poster.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs478.ash1/26209_395357671064_702251064_4301598_2587619_n.jpg (http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs478.ash1/26209_395357671064_702251064_4301598_2587619_n.jpg )http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4301598&l=9033380389&id=702251064

[Audryb]

Is the pick mark drawn on the landing still the mark from the takeoff? and are the curves going the wrong way on the landing?

This is how I visualize the tracing for a flip, including landing. (I put an x for the toepick on the landing, too, because I'm not sure if the marks in the original landing drawing are meant to be the takeoff toepick mark, or another mark that's actually part of the landing)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/823800/flip%20jump.jpg

[Skate@Delaware]

Is the pick mark drawn on the landing still the mark from the takeoff? and are the curves going the wrong way on the landing?

This is how I visualize the tracing for a flip, including landing. (I put an x for the toepick on the landing, too, because I'm not sure if the marks in the original landing drawing are meant to be the takeoff toepick mark, or another mark that's actually part of the landing)


I'm not 100% sure since we haven't heard from the one that posted the drawing, but maybe we can assume that the X is the pick/takeoff since that part of the discussion was talking about lining everything up. I like your drawing a lot-very nice! My toe-loop is lined up like that.

[londonicechamp]

Hi

What I do know is that when I tried to do the toe loop during my lesson, my coach always said that for a start, I did not pick far enough.

Now most of the time if this is attempted during the lesson, then after being reminded of by the coach about my problems, I will land and jump the correct way.

Sometimes it is still hard for me to tell whether this problem still exists when I do this during practise.

londonicechamp

[SkatEn]

I enhanced the drawing, hope this makes it better. My apologies to the original poster.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs478.ash1/26209_395357671064_702251064_4301598_2587619_n.jpg (http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs478.ash1/26209_395357671064_702251064_4301598_2587619_n.jpg )http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4301598&l=9033380389&id=702251064

Ooops. My apologies. I guess it was quite confusing.

Skate_Delaware did try to make it clearer. I think in the drawings above, the glide out was in relative to the toepick mark made by the picking.

What I meant was, hopefully better illustrated below.

http://i44.tinypic.com/971dm0.jpg

In green - Landing:
The X (originally O) made represents the landing. The original curve is the LBI (flip) made on the 3 turn. I meant to ask #1, #2, or #3 is the landing, in relative to the curve of the LBI edge. Eg, land inside the circle, outside the circle, or on the circle.

(there is no picking mark for the landing)

What Skate_Delaware illustrated was in relative to the picking of the jump.

Sorry for the confusion.

Okay here is another good question for the techies to help with - what is the ideal flip, using my tracing + Skate_Delaware?

[Audryb]

ohhhhh-kay, now I understand the original drawing, thanks.

Okay here is another good question for the techies to help with - what is the ideal flip, using my tracing + Skate_Delaware?

the drawing I posted before is an ideal flip:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/823800/flip%20jump.jpg

I think that would be a combination of your takeoff #3 and landing #2

[techskater]

From the way I have had flips broken down for me in preparation for double flips, on the back inside edge, it should almost go tangential to your skating circle, in other words, cut across as if it were a straight line going down the rink. On the back inside edge, bend deeply and pick with the other leg straight but not locked slightly to the inside of your edge. Draw together, release the shoulders and scoop the picking arm as you leave the ice. The landing should ride out on the same arc across from your toe pick.

[Skate@Delaware]

To keep better control (because of the arm thing) my coach is having me do a few 3-turns on the hockey circle, then do the jump still on the circle (I can 2-foot it for now). She wants me to use the circle, and keep the 3-turn & jump controlled and clean. We will work on the free leg later. She wants good muscle memory developed. It's so hard to un-do and relearn bad technique!

I'm going to work hard (i.e. concentrate) on the above tips to improve this jump. Also for the toe-loop as far as picking and drawing the skating foot back.

[ibreakhearts66]

From the way I have had flips broken down for me in preparation for double flips, on the back inside edge, it should almost go tangential to your skating circle, in other words, cut across as if it were a straight line going down the rink. On the back inside edge, bend deeply and pick with the other leg straight but not locked slightly to the inside of your edge. Draw together, release the shoulders and scoop the picking arm as you leave the ice. The landing should ride out on the same arc across from your toe pick.

This sounds like what I've been taught and the tracing my flips leave.

I'm not certain, and maybe someone can provide more insight, but it seems to me like there should not be a gap between the take-off edge and the toe pick but rather the tracings should be side by side, like a a toe loop. If the tracing from the left leg (CCW) is significantly in front of the tapping foot, you're not really giving yourself anything to jump from as your weight is in between both feet. I've always been taught and understood that you reach back, tap, then draw your left leg back to about even with your toe pick as you take off. Obviously this should happen quickly and shouldn't involve a lot of swinging, but all of the good 2flip take-offs I see DO look like number 1 on the take-off drawing list. They're straight and controlled, but they do also draw together before taking off.

As for an off ice exercise--skipping backwards is excellent. You just want to exaggerate it a bit. For the "hop" part of the skip, try to drive the free leg up into an "h" like you would in a jump. I wish I could describe it better, but if you experiment with it I think you'll be able to figure out what exactly to do to make it helpful. Then get your body to do it ;)

While we have drawings up, I just thought I'd mention that one of the easiest ways to tell if a toe loop is a toe loop or toe waltz/axel is to look at the tracing. If the tracing is like the one drawn by AudryB for a flip, then you're doing a toe-waltz. If the take-off is like SkateEn's flip #1, then it is likely a true toe loop. I went to a Kathy Casey seminar years ago and she drew out two diagrams like the flip take off diagrams we have and then asked the coaches if any students had toe axels so she could compare her drawing to the tracing on the ice. My coach volunteered me and she was right, my take off looked exactly like her toe axel drawing :frus:

[Audryb]

I'm not certain, and maybe someone can provide more insight, but it seems to me like there should not be a gap between the take-off edge and the toe pick but rather the tracings should be side by side, like a a toe loop.

You're right. Because the original discussion was about picking far enough back, I drew the tracing with a gap to show that the pick should be back behind and almost directly in line with the skating foot. I have seen plenty of kids actually pick right next to their foot like #2 and just fling themselves around in the air, which is what it sounds like the OP might be having trouble with, and I wanted to differentiate. Presented with the landing as a complete jump though, as I have, it is incorrect. The foot would draw back before leaving the ice. Maybe this is a better drawing. The dotted line is the part of the tracing that happens after you toe in.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/823800/flip%20jump2.jpg

I am NOT a high level skater, I'm actually only learning the flip now. I am a kind of mechanically oriented person though and I spend a lot of time watching figure skating and analyzing the mechanics of different elements to try to improve my own skating and just because I like to understand these things. Based on this (watching elite skaters in slow motion) I would have said that a flip doesn't draw back quite as far toward or past the toe pick as a toe loop does. I've never looked at the tracing of a really good flip or double flip on the ice though, and since you actually DO double flips, I'd definitely have to defer to you on that one :D Do you think my dotted line is correct in my new drawing, or should it go farther past the pick mark?

[Skate@Delaware]

I understand that the toe-loop skating foot draws back towards the picking foot before you become airborne. I haven't been able to achieve that yet. Bad technique taught years ago (taught to waltz the toe-loop) is slowly being untaught but it will take time. I'm with you Audryb-I also look at slo-mo videos and try to learn from higher level skaters with good technique and (hopefully) learn something that I can apply.

For the flip, since it's NEW to me and the only really, really bad thing I need to fix is the 3-turn (the rest is slightly bad but not as horrible), there is a better chance that this one won't suck as much (hahaha-fingers crossed).

[antmanb]

I'm not certain, and maybe someone can provide more insight, but it seems to me like there should not be a gap between the take-off edge and the toe pick but rather the tracings should be side by side, like a a toe loop. If the tracing from the left leg (CCW) is significantly in front of the tapping foot, you're not really giving yourself anything to jump from as your weight is in between both feet. I've always been taught and understood that you reach back, tap, then draw your left leg back to about even with your toe pick as you take off. Obviously this should happen quickly and shouldn't involve a lot of swinging, but all of the good 2flip take-offs I see DO look like number 1 on the take-off drawing list. They're straight and controlled, but they do also draw together before taking off.



I was at an adult skating camp where the coach told us that the tracing of the blade in relation to the pick-in mark should come within a blade's length of the pick mark. He focused on the draw back towards the pick....of course this did me no use as I have spent most of my time on the flip trying to get off the edge quicker to stop me two footing the take off. But he was happy with any tracing where the blade left the ice level with the Pick mark and any where up top a blade length before the pick mark.

Also for those of you doing exercises on the hockey circle - does it not get too "swingy"? I know it should be controlled and therefore not swingy, but my coach has me do the LFI three turn on a straight line and keep the entrance and exit as straight as possible. I tend you use one of the blue lines that are parallel with the short edge of the rink and skate into it straight and keep the three turn and pick on the fat blue line.

Ant

[doubletoe]

I understand that the toe-loop skating foot draws back towards the picking foot before you become airborne. I haven't been able to achieve that yet. Bad technique taught years ago (taught to waltz the toe-loop) is slowly being untaught but it will take time. I'm with you Audryb-I also look at slo-mo videos and try to learn from higher level skaters with good technique and (hopefully) learn something that I can apply.

For the flip, since it's NEW to me and the only really, really bad thing I need to fix is the 3-turn (the rest is slightly bad but not as horrible), there is a better chance that this one won't suck as much (hahaha-fingers crossed).

Something that really helped me with the 3-turn setup for the flip and toeloop was doing the 3-turn-flip and 3-turn-toeloop along a straight line on the ice. It's all about how you angle the 3-turn entry in relation to that line. Start on the line and imagine you are at 6:00 on a clock face and facing the 12:00 mark, which is ahead of you on that line. Push off onto a long LFI edge that starts on the line and comes back to the line, and when it brings you back to the line, push off onto the RFI for the RFI-3-toeloop setup or use a right toe assist to push onto a LFO edge for the LFO-3-flip setup. The key is to aim that 3-turn entrance edge at 1:00, not 12:00, so that it takes you a little to the right of the line and the 3-turn itself also happens to the right of the line. The 3-turn exit edge will eventually bring you back to the line, where you will pick for your flip or toeloop. Look at your tracings on the ice after doing this. The 3-turn exit edge should be the same length and arc as the 3-turn entrance edge. If it is shorter and rounder, you are not checking your shoulders properly on the 3-turn. The only thing that should be on the other side of the line is your landing edge.

[Skate@Delaware]

Also for those of you doing exercises on the hockey circle - does it not get too "swingy"? I know it should be controlled and therefore not swingy, but my coach has me do the LFI three turn on a straight line and keep the entrance and exit as straight as possible. I tend you use one of the blue lines that are parallel with the short edge of the rink and skate into it straight and keep the three turn and pick on the fat blue line.

Ant
I do them on the hockey circle and wish I'd taken a picture of them tonight...just to show you they are not "swingy" at all. My 3-turn is actually so much more controlled on the circle. I do several 3-turns, then I'm warmed up enough to do some jump warm-ups. We are going to do this for some time, just to maintain control of the technique. Next time I go to the rink, I will video, and take a picture of the tracings.

[´*~·Meje·~*`]

Hi everyone :)

Ive been following this topic, very good info!

I just stumbled across this (http://www.youtube.com./watch?v=-DlhUW441fo&feature=fvsr) on you tube, and thought it might be of interest here.

It shows slow motion of picking behind, right where we need to see it, down at ice level :)

[Isk8NYC]

That's a great video, Meje. Unless I'm mistaken, Tonya Harding is one of the demonstrators.

Michael Weiss has several instructional vidoes on MonkeySee for basic figure skating jumps. http://www.monkeysee.com/Michael%20Weiss

[SkatEn]

I often pick in and "wait" too long for the left leg to come back. #2 is what I leave on the ice on most times. Sometimes if I really concentrate on leaving the ice soon enough, I get #1... And I use a straight line as a guide! I can't imagine using a hockey circle. I imagine that would be too curvy for me.

Any ideas on how to jump up early enough? I don't get that issue with the pick-jump exercise, but only when I pick-jump-rotate...

[fsk8r]

I often pick in and "wait" too long for the left leg to come back. #2 is what I leave on the ice on most times. Sometimes if I really concentrate on leaving the ice soon enough, I get #1... And I use a straight line as a guide! I can't imagine using a hockey circle. I imagine that would be too curvy for me.

Any ideas on how to jump up early enough? I don't get that issue with the pick-jump exercise, but only when I pick-jump-rotate...

I've just spent a lot of time on working on the pick-jump exercise, starting with just the pick-jump bit and working up to the 3-turn,pick, jump bit. It's helped me get from a #2 to a #1 most of the time, but revert to #2 when running my program. I'd love to know how to get the jump earlier. I've worked out it's something to do with transfering the weight back onto the picking foot and lifting the knee up, but don't really quite have the timing worked out.

[antmanb]

I often pick in and "wait" too long for the left leg to come back. #2 is what I leave on the ice on most times. Sometimes if I really concentrate on leaving the ice soon enough, I get #1... And I use a straight line as a guide! I can't imagine using a hockey circle. I imagine that would be too curvy for me.

Any ideas on how to jump up early enough? I don't get that issue with the pick-jump exercise, but only when I pick-jump-rotate...

I've just spent a lot of time on working on the pick-jump exercise, starting with just the pick-jump bit and working up to the 3-turn,pick, jump bit. It's helped me get from a #2 to a #1 most of the time, but revert to #2 when running my program. I'd love to know how to get the jump earlier. I've worked out it's something to do with transfering the weight back onto the picking foot and lifting the knee up, but don't really quite have the timing worked out.

This has been my constant problem and I can't tell you exactly what changed and when but i now only rarely keep on the LBI too long.

The thing I kept telling my coach was that the instructions didn't make sense! How can I be on a LBI AND transfer my weight to the Right pick AND draw myself back...it seemed to leave my weight exactly between both skates and nowhere near in a position to jump.

I think the flip is one of the hardest jumps to do slowly and in a learning way because now when it happens everything seems to happen quickly.

The main observation - i was not transfering my weight to the right foot enough or quickly enough.

The main things that helped for me:

1. Really straight arched back, all the way through the jump. Do you feel like you're artificially arching your back and feel like a contortionist? Guess what you're still slouched and need to feel your shoulders back and down and arch the small of your back more! The reason this helped me is that I have a tendancy to break at the waist when i jump, if you do this on the flip your weight will remain on the Left foot and you'll hang on that edge longer than you should as you bring it back to the picking foot - only transfering your weight to the right leg at teh point the left foot draws back.

2. Focus on getting the highest pick on the big toe of the right foot straight back into the ice. For me this is the key thing i think about now when i go into the jump - solid big toe-in means that i actually grip the ice and have something to "grab" and jump with. If i do not focus on the toe I do not transfer my weight onto it quickly or enough and get "stuck" with my weight between left foot and right.

3. As soon as the left toe hits the ice drive the left knee up so that the thigh is parallel to the ice...NO! Higher than that (which will invariably still not be as high as parallel!). This is the key - if, like me, you turn to your coach and say that it makes no sense - how can you lift that knee i'm not even properly on the right foot yet? That's your answer - until you can happily pick that knee up and balance on the pick you're not transfering the weight back.

It help me no end to practice from a standstill doing the three turn, pick back and lift of the knee without leaving the ice or rotating. We slowly added speed and leaving the ice with no rotation and then finally added the rotation. I discovered that my scratchy three turn got immensely better as i was keeping my weight further back on the blade where it probably should be for the turn, because of the focus on the weight shift back.

I spent ages reading people's tips on here (which were brilliant by the way) and i'd go to the rink and try and just not "get" the weight shift. The first time i felt it happen I had a "Eureka!" moment, and then coudln't recreate it, but once you feel it, you have something to aim for, and once you start to feel it more, then the more sense people's suggestions make and so -on.

My flip is still quite slow but i have a feeling that int he future it will be my favourite and biggest jump, i'm already starting to feel the height you can generate from this jump.

Ant

[Skate@Delaware]

I went skating today but it wasn't good for video....they had the main lights out and the disco lights on (glad my migraine was gone) it was pretty tho, but dim for pics/videos.

I worked hard on keeping my hips square and really reaching back while picking and when I was in, trying to feel the transfer of my weight, just as in the toe-loop. Altho I don't do as antmanb does and "knee-up" as of yet 8O. yeah. I did for my loop jump which was nice.

Looking at my tracings (which was interesting, given the lighting situation) I still need to work on drawing back more, but overall, I'm slowly improving.

[fsk8r]

This has been my constant problem and I can't tell you exactly what changed and when but i now only rarely keep on the LBI too long.

The thing I kept telling my coach was that the instructions didn't make sense! How can I be on a LBI AND transfer my weight to the Right pick AND draw myself back...it seemed to leave my weight exactly between both skates and nowhere near in a position to jump.

I think the flip is one of the hardest jumps to do slowly and in a learning way because now when it happens everything seems to happen quickly.

The main observation - i was not transfering my weight to the right foot enough or quickly enough.

The main things that helped for me:

1. Really straight arched back, all the way through the jump. Do you feel like you're artificially arching your back and feel like a contortionist? Guess what you're still slouched and need to feel your shoulders back and down and arch the small of your back more! The reason this helped me is that I have a tendancy to break at the waist when i jump, if you do this on the flip your weight will remain on the Left foot and you'll hang on that edge longer than you should as you bring it back to the picking foot - only transfering your weight to the right leg at teh point the left foot draws back.

2. Focus on getting the highest pick on the big toe of the right foot straight back into the ice. For me this is the key thing i think about now when i go into the jump - solid big toe-in means that i actually grip the ice and have something to "grab" and jump with. If i do not focus on the toe I do not transfer my weight onto it quickly or enough and get "stuck" with my weight between left foot and right.

3. As soon as the left toe hits the ice drive the left knee up so that the thigh is parallel to the ice...NO! Higher than that (which will invariably still not be as high as parallel!). This is the key - if, like me, you turn to your coach and say that it makes no sense - how can you lift that knee i'm not even properly on the right foot yet? That's your answer - until you can happily pick that knee up and balance on the pick you're not transfering the weight back.

It help me no end to practice from a standstill doing the three turn, pick back and lift of the knee without leaving the ice or rotating. We slowly added speed and leaving the ice with no rotation and then finally added the rotation. I discovered that my scratchy three turn got immensely better as i was keeping my weight further back on the blade where it probably should be for the turn, because of the focus on the weight shift back.

I spent ages reading people's tips on here (which were brilliant by the way) and i'd go to the rink and try and just not "get" the weight shift. The first time i felt it happen I had a "Eureka!" moment, and then coudln't recreate it, but once you feel it, you have something to aim for, and once you start to feel it more, then the more sense people's suggestions make and so -on.

My flip is still quite slow but i have a feeling that int he future it will be my favourite and biggest jump, i'm already starting to feel the height you can generate from this jump.

Ant

Thanks for that. Putting that together with what the coach and other coaches have said, it's making sense. I also break at the waist, so the thinking about keeping the back straight is probably what I'm not doing. I tend to nose-dive when I panic. One coach was trying to get me to do a Hitler salute as the toe went in. Presumably that's to try and keep my back straight.
But it's back to 3-turning and pulling the weight back from standstill. It's nearly there, it's just getting it beyond doing it calmly in practice to being able to do it automatically in the panic of a program.

This is a really useful thread. Now to work out how to do a lutz, although I suspect my lutz problems (and coach says) are due to my flip problems and fix one and I might be able to fix the other.

[antmanb]

Thanks for that. Putting that together with what the coach and other coaches have said, it's making sense. I also break at the waist, so the thinking about keeping the back straight is probably what I'm not doing. I tend to nose-dive when I panic. One coach was trying to get me to do a Hitler salute as the toe went in. Presumably that's to try and keep my back straight.
But it's back to 3-turning and pulling the weight back from standstill. It's nearly there, it's just getting it beyond doing it calmly in practice to being able to do it automatically in the panic of a program.

When i panic I round my back and shoulders. Coach has me do many different jumps strung together in combination/sequence and when I know there's a loop in the there I panic and start to round everything. By the end coach says i'm curling into a ball! It takes so much concentration to even get one thing to change, let alone a lot!


This is a really useful thread. Now to work out how to do a lutz, although I suspect my lutz problems (and coach says) are due to my flip problems and fix one and I might be able to fix the other.

The Lutz I think probably deserves it's own thread but i need some help with that including tracing help.

Maybe you will have similar problems to me on the lutz in that staying on the LBO edge too long invariably rocks it onto an inside edge for the take off?

Coach is trying to get me to pick up the left knee in the same way and right now it feels like it makes no sense and at best if i manage it I end up jumping more sideways than back and end up being all "crab-like" for lack of a better word....but that's for another thread!

Ant

[Skate@Delaware]

Ant,
since your "lift the knee" tip, I've used that for my loop and it's gotten so much better-thank you so much for that!

My skating is on hiatus for now (school) I should be picking things back up shortly and be able to work on things again. Everything has been helpful and I'm very appreciative of the tips.

It would be nice if we had different threads for each jump/spin/etc.

[fsk8r]

Ant,
since your "lift the knee" tip, I've used that for my loop and it's gotten so much better-thank you so much for that!

My skating is on hiatus for now (school) I should be picking things back up shortly and be able to work on things again. Everything has been helpful and I'm very appreciative of the tips.

It would be nice if we had different threads for each jump/spin/etc.

The lifting the knee tip seemed to work for me as well. Won't swear it was any better, but it helps getting the feel for the weight transfer back. I still cheat it in the program so it's not quite muscle memory yet. I suppose that one just takes time.

[Skate@Delaware]

The lifting the knee tip seemed to work for me as well. Won't swear it was any better, but it helps getting the feel for the weight transfer back. I still cheat it in the program so it's not quite muscle memory yet. I suppose that one just takes time.
I agree-and don't mind that it takes longer for muscle memory....but I'm happy with the improvement. My loop tonight was better, all I thought about was lifting the knee (and my arm placement).

We are still working on the flip, coach added "arms" so they are no longer table-topped....but brought around to my left shoulder. Small changes, but they add so much! Still on the circle, which is fine.

OTOH, we added 3-turns again on the circle going the other way (haha for moves this time). Yeah, fixing things takes so much longer than learning them right the first time LOL!

[GoSveta]

I was at an adult skating camp where the coach told us that the tracing of the blade in relation to the pick-in mark should come within a blade's length of the pick mark. He focused on the draw back towards the pick....of course this did me no use as I have spent most of my time on the flip trying to get off the edge quicker to stop me two footing the take off. But he was happy with any tracing where the blade left the ice level with the Pick mark and any where up top a blade length before the pick mark.

Also for those of you doing exercises on the hockey circle - does it not get too "swingy"? I know it should be controlled and therefore not swingy, but my coach has me do the LFI three turn on a straight line and keep the entrance and exit as straight as possible. I tend you use one of the blue lines that are parallel with the short edge of the rink and skate into it straight and keep the three turn and pick on the fat blue line.

Ant

This, although I think [s]he meant LFO3 :).

[drskater]

This is a great thread. Thanks for posting such useful advice and tips. Since I still haven’t perfected this jump, I don’t have any recommendations but I thought I’d share some of the coaching suggestions that have really helped me.

When pushing into the three-turn, keep the right hip open (for me it feels like “unhinging” my hip), as if you’re prepping a salchow. To further control the check, I simultaneously give my left arm a little “push” down. Keep the left leg bent.

To stop the instinct to slouch, I spot a sign in the rink. The pick behind is clearly a timing issue, can’t hesitate or you’ll start to rotate. Once I feel my right pick hit the ice, I kind of switch my emphasis to the left leg and the right arm. You really spring off the left leg, the picking leg is a pole vault (I used to get way too concerned with the picking leg and not the jumping leg). The right arm punches in (like you’re slugging someone), to assist in getting the full rotation. Here the flip becomes the loop jump, legs together, with the left leg in what my coach calls the “cheerleader pose” (again just like the loop). You can land two-footed (bent knees, though) at first as long as your weight is on the right side; that way you practice clean jumps and then start to really work on/refine the landing “punch out”-- hips are underneath the torso, almost as if your hips are catching the torso. This helps avoid a break at the waist.

This jump seems to go faster than the others so I find it difficult to get everything right. Yet I actually like this jump better than the loop. I’ve just started learning the lutz and I think I like this better than the loop too. I don’t know; are skaters toe-jump people versus edge-jump people?? I seem to recall Johnny Weir (on his TV show) saying something to this effect.

[GoSveta]

Yes, many (most) skaters will prefer edge to toe jumps, or vice versa.

Skaters that preferred edge jumps would include Mao Asada, Irina Slutskaya, Tara Lipinski. Skaters that preferred toe jumps would include Yu-Na Kim and Sasha Cohen.

Usually you can tell, because one class of jumps will give them more trouble (or be of lesser quality) than the other.

Kim, for example, has been known to double her Salchow and hardly ever competes a Triple Loop. Slutskaya had lots of trouble on her Flip and Lutz (especially in 1998-1999). Good edge jumpers also prefer to put Loops on the back end of their combinations, and great ones like Slutskaya were able to do Double Axels without prerotation. There are some skaters who were very well-rounded, though (Midori Ito, for example, and Michelle Kwan to a lesser extent).

The jump only goes faster if you make it go faster. No one says you have to pick in directly/right after the three turn. If you need to take your time, take your time. Making the entrance straighter will lessen the chances that you will start rotating after the three turn.

And you're always free to use a Mohawk Entrance, or some other variation which is technically acceptable. Good coaches should be willing to explore valid alternatives.

[antmanb]

This, although I think [s]he meant LFO3 :).

Thanks for spotting that! If I write too much about skating I start to write I instead of O and L instead of R and then get confused and end up jumping walking through something on the floor to write it out :lol:

Ant

[drskater]

The jump only goes faster if you make it go faster. No one says you have to pick in directly/right after the three turn. If you need to take your time, take your time. Making the entrance straighter will lessen the chances that you will start rotating after the three turn.

And you're always free to use a Mohawk Entrance, or some other variation which is technically acceptable. Good coaches should be willing to explore valid alternatives.

Thanks!! I'll keep this in mind when I skate later today. I learned a half-flip from the mohawk entrance and this is very easy for me. My coach regards the half-flip as a footwork jump and dislikes it because she thinks it teaches skaters not to rotate. However, my body does align better for the jump from this entrance. Makes me wonder if learning the half-flip first helps or hinders the full jump. Hmmmm....

[GoSveta]

Yes, all skaters have their own rhythm. You just have to find yours. If your timing isn't "on," your technique will break down (pops, losing your air sense mid-jump, etc.).

I kinda agree about the Half-Flips, and Half Jumps in general.

I warm up off-ice with singles, and mostly doubles, so I certainly can feel how much harder they are for me because of how much I have to work to not go as fast, rotate as much, and go as high.

Going up high and finishing half a rotation on the way up, then having to come down going forward on a toe pick... Thanks, but no thanks. It's neither cute nor comfortable.