"On the art of falling gently", where'd it go ?

[Sessy]

I believe one of the former (possibly still current?) members here used to have a site with how to make your own spinner, how to fall gently, pro-filer comparisons, etc. I haven't been able to find that one now. Did it go offline when Geocities went down? Does anybody know where I can find the materials online these days?

[Morgail]

I think that's Query's website. Here's a link: http://mgrunes.com/

[Bill_S]

Hi Sessy!

I have some information about making a spinner and info about the ProFiler on my web site...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/skating/

but I don't have information about falling gently. I pad up and fall hard.

[dbny]

I have three spinners. I've got the expensive one which is two plates with bearings between them, the less expensive one, which is a plastic rectangle with a "spin point" built into the bottom, and the totally free one, which is a rectangular piece of cardboard. The cardboard is the best. I can spin on my tiled bathroom floor, on a wooden floor, or on the linoleum in my kitchen. It came out of shower curtain packaging, which is how I discovered it in the bathroom for the first time.

[Sessy]

BDNY, thanks for the cardboard idea! I have discovered something similar about my flat-woven carpet and one particular pair of socks that makes for really awesome spinning , but it's kinda ruining the carpet, I'll make sure to try the cardboard thing! :)

And Bill and Morgail, thanks for both those links - exactly what I was looking for! (for some reason I thought it was on 1 site, my error)

[Kat12]

Okay, I gotta know! How does the cardboard spinner work? I mean, I could see myself spinning on a piece of cardboard but having completely incorrect form....or is there some way to ensure you don't?

[dbny]

Okay, I gotta know! How does the cardboard spinner work? I mean, I could see myself spinning on a piece of cardboard but having completely incorrect form....or is there some way to ensure you don't?

Form is exactly what I work on with this spinner. I focus on core strength, posture, and timing (bringing free leg in with free arm.) I raise my heel so that I feel my weight fairly close to where it should be on ice.

[Skate@Delaware]

I have three spinners. I've got the expensive one which is two plates with bearings between them, the less expensive one, which is a plastic rectangle with a "spin point" built into the bottom, and the totally free one, which is a rectangular piece of cardboard. The cardboard is the best. I can spin on my tiled bathroom floor, on a wooden floor, or on the linoleum in my kitchen. It came out of shower curtain packaging, which is how I discovered it in the bathroom for the first time.
So that explains the high incident rate for bathroom falls! LOL! I never thought about using cardboard! I have one of the ball-bearing spinners (the gold one) and I use it on the carpeted floor in the bedroom because the closet mirrors are there AND the carpet slows it down a tad. Plus it's a bigger room, less chance of falling into something (that would happen to me).

Anyone try it for sit spinning or camels? I've only had good luck with backspins, and for them it works fantastic (if I go slow).

[Sessy]

Anyone try it for sit spinning or camels? I've only had good luck with backspins, and for them it works fantastic (if I go slow).

I used to have one and yeah I had some luck with sit spins (not with camels though, not enough speed) but honestly I prefer the socks-and-slippery-floor method for both, as well as the 1-foot spin. I didn't skate for two years and still my sit spin improved in the meantime so the only thing that could've done that would have been the dry practice. I've seen girls who do nationals practice sit spins off-ice much the same way and their off- and on-ice spins were virtually identical to look at, and honestly, for my own sit spin, I don't notice much of a difference between off- and on ice either which is surprising, you'd think at least wearing boots or not would matter but no. You obviously can't practice entry edge related timing off-ice though, it's just for the position itself and (for me) it really helped to figure out how to bring around my arm and leg at the same time while not dropping/raising anything.

I've decorated my room to have a huge chunk of empty space in the middle so I can practice whatever I want, as well as have room to lay out my various hobby projects when need be. I appreciate that it is not a possibility for everyone, though.

[Query]

I think that's Query's website. Here's a link: http://mgrunes.com/

Yes, it is mine.

As for spinners, there have been a whole bunch of threads here. Quite a few people have found that socks on highly polished and/or greased laminate flooring material work very well. For example, whiteboard material is very very smooth.

There are a bunch of mechanicals spinners available, that consist of a small surface mounted on a "turntable bearing". The problem is, you have to put your foot in exactly the right place. Furthermore, most of them don't work well, because turntable bearings aren't very reliable - for example, most of the "Pro Spinner" brand that I tried in stores would get stuck in spots, and not rotate smoothly. So if you want it, you should check in a store to find a particular unit that works, and buy it there.

Many of us find is that rotating on a mechanical spinner feels completely different than stepping into a spin or jump on the ice. Likewise, spinning on roller skates or inline skates feels a lot different. It is possible that the best practice for spinning and jumping on the ice is spinning and jumping on the ice (surprise) - though playing with greased laminate flooring is kind of fun, if you are careful not to hurt yourself. Regardless, make sure you have lots of space around you to fall without hitting anything.

I will update my Falling page tonight to put in a couple new thoughts I have had on injury prevention in general. Not everyone on this forum agrees with me that practicing falls is a good idea. But many coaches teach falls, and if you learn best from coaches, you might ask your coach to show you how.

[Skate@Delaware]

I will update my Falling page tonight to put in a couple new thoughts I have had on injury prevention in general. Not everyone on this forum agrees with me that practicing falls is a good idea. But many coaches teach falls, and if you learn best from coaches, you might ask your coach to show you how.
This reminds me of a "Sports Science" show I saw on discovery once (it might have been on another science channel) where students of martial arts actually have stronger bones & even stronger muscles from repeated blows over time. It got me thinking if the same thing happened to skaters, from repetitive falls over time (would make an interesting study re: bone density of say, the greater trochanter/pelvis).

the deal about working with a spinner is trying to find a model that works best for you so you really need to try before you buy. Not always an option for most people (my pro shop still doesn't stock them).

[Query]

According to books on sports medicine, bone density, internal structure, and shape continues to change in response to specific stresses (as well as diet), even for adults. In particular, bone grows where there is long term inflammation. Push it too far, and you get bone spurs and fragments in the middle of soft tissue and joints that cause pain (and more inflammation) and interfere with motion.

The issue on bones and falling would be whether that could develop bad things too.

None of the falls I advocate should strengthen bones much, because I seek very gentle falls. But I think I read that jumping and landing will gradually change bone density and shape. If you always rotate in one direction, as most skaters do, it tends to gradually twist the spinal column, including the bones.

I've heard that military paratroopers hit the ground at 40 mph, including on hard rough terrain. They work hard on falling as gently as possible within that constraint, but it wouldn't surprise me if the impacts noticeably modify bone and muscle. I wonder if they use padded clothing.

[Sessy]

Skating is bad for your back in more ways than one, tell me bout it lol... :lol:

I think the advantages for figure skaters from learning to fall need to be sought more in a lack of fear of falling, which I think gentle falls do accomplish, hence my asking for the site :)

[Query]

Skating is bad for your back in more ways than one, tell me bout it

I'll bite. How has skating hurt your back, and what contributed?

I have the Gold Medal brand skate spinner. I tried a bunch in stores, and found most of them had sticky bearings. (BTW, if you go to a hardware store to buy a turntable bearing to make your own spinner, most of them also have sticky bearings - check the one you buy.) And I get thrown off if I put my foot even a little off-center. From experience, you will have a fairly big job ahead of you when you need to clean out the bearings - which you will unless you keep it very, very clean, and store it in a plastic bag. My experience with them is a few years old, but I can't recommend them.

I also have one by Rainbo, which is just a flat piece of plastic shaped a bit like a foot, but rounded on the bottom. Could damage some types of flooring, so put it on something else smooth.

Both of the above require extremely good balance, more so than skating spins.

BTW, "Ice Dancer" on this board said she had successfully used a "Twist Board". They are about $10 (e.g., the Bally and Everlast brands - pick the model without resistance tubing), as opposed to $45-$50 for the "Gold Medal" brand skate spinners. (Sorry, I only know US prices and brands.) I've seen good reviews of the Bally unit.

I don't know whether spinners of any type will help much with skate spins and jumps (maybe a little in terms of figuring out how body part alignment affects spin), but you can look at it as a completely new skill to master. Once you have it down, you can bring it to the rink and let everyone who thinks they know how to spin on skates be thrown off. Padding and a sense of humor helps. :) Too bad I never quite got it down.

My page on modifying boots has a some info (http://mgrunes.com/boots/BootBlade.html) on the Pro-Filer too. Everything Bill writes is really excellent, so look at all his pages.

[Sessy]

I'll bite. How has skating hurt your back, and what contributed?


I have a really rather damaged vertebrae from a fall as a kid, so frankly I make a poor test subject for your research. :lol: But, if you must know - doing stretches for the biellmann only on 1 side is disastrous for it, as I've discovered - I need to stretch both sides EXACTLY equally, or else, ain't pretty...
Also, as you rightly pointed out, jumps are harmful to the back, although I think the damage happens more at landing than at take-off, when the rotation needs to be stopped, plus you have the impact of the landing. This automatically seems to exert a stronger force on the landing side of the body than the free side, and seems to push the spinal column out of allignment, the muscles meanwhile push at it in their effort to stop rotation and exercerbate (how do you spell that?) the problem. It also seems returning to the ice and jumping without a shred of core strength left exposes me to this in particular, it was never THIS bad before. (Peculiarly, I have found my lack of core strength does not affect my (single) jumps and (basic) spins in the least, but then I have always previously found coaches blaming core strength for what turned out to be anything from bad blades to poor timing...)

On the other hand, skating is also beneficial to my back - after a good stretching session, it's much easier to pop everything back in place (often it will do so by itself actually, when I first learned the biellmann I actually managed to get rid of a part of my back pain that nothing helped against for years), and the increased muscle strength which supports the back, so it doesn't wear down as much as it otherwise would.

[Skate@Delaware]

I'll bite. How has skating hurt your back, and what contributed?

I have the Gold Medal brand skate spinner. I tried a bunch in stores, and found most of them had sticky bearings. (BTW, if you go to a hardware store to buy a turntable bearing to make your own spinner, most of them also have sticky bearings - check the one you buy.) And I get thrown off if I put my foot even a little off-center. From experience, you will have a fairly big job ahead of you when you need to clean out the bearings - which you will unless you keep it very, very clean, and store it in a plastic bag. My experience with them is a few years old, but I can't recommend them.

I also have one by Rainbo, which is just a flat piece of plastic shaped a bit like a foot, but rounded on the bottom. Could damage some types of flooring, so put it on something else smooth.

Both of the above require extremely good balance, more so than skating spins.

BTW, "Ice Dancer" on this board said she had successfully used a "Twist Board". They are about $10 (e.g., the Bally and Everlast brands - pick the model without resistance tubing), as opposed to $45-$50 for the "Gold Medal" brand skate spinners. (Sorry, I only know US prices and brands.) I've seen good reviews of the Bally unit.

I don't know whether spinners of any type will help much with skate spins and jumps (maybe a little in terms of figuring out how body part alignment affects spin), but you can look at it as a completely new skill to master. Once you have it down, you can bring it to the rink and let everyone who thinks they know how to spin on skates be thrown off. Padding and a sense of humor helps. :) Too bad I never quite got it down.

My page on modifying boots has a some info (http://mgrunes.com/boots/BootBlade.html) on the Pro-Filer too. Everything Bill writes is really excellent, so look at all his pages.
I did take my spinner to the rink, and I did warn the users to "go EASY and SLOW" haha! they kept getting flung off. It was rather hilarious! No one was hurt...just comical.
I have a really rather damaged vertebrae from a fall as a kid, so frankly I make a poor test subject for your research. :lol: But, if you must know - doing stretches for the biellmann only on 1 side is disastrous for it, as I've discovered - I need to stretch both sides EXACTLY equally, or else, ain't pretty...
Also, as you rightly pointed out, jumps are harmful to the back, although I think the damage happens more at landing than at take-off, when the rotation needs to be stopped, plus you have the impact of the landing. This automatically seems to exert a stronger force on the landing side of the body than the free side, and seems to push the spinal column out of allignment, the muscles meanwhile push at it in their effort to stop rotation and exercerbate (how do you spell that?) the problem. It also seems returning to the ice and jumping without a shred of core strength left exposes me to this in particular, it was never THIS bad before. (Peculiarly, I have found my lack of core strength does not affect my (single) jumps and (basic) spins in the least, but then I have always previously found coaches blaming core strength for what turned out to be anything from bad blades to poor timing...)

On the other hand, skating is also beneficial to my back - after a good stretching session, it's much easier to pop everything back in place (often it will do so by itself actually, when I first learned the biellmann I actually managed to get rid of a part of my back pain that nothing helped against for years), and the increased muscle strength which supports the back, so it doesn't wear down as much as it otherwise would.
After my back injury...surgery...rehab (twice). I had MAJOR core weakness, weakness, nerve damage, muscular compensation issues, etc. My spins went into the toilet. They will never be as good as they were. My core is twice as strong now as when I "graduated" from rehab but it's still no good. Good enough for me for skating (if you don't look too close at the traveling).

I've learned to give more when I land my jumps...I am getting older and don't want to face mounting knee/hip/back problems down the road. I bend my knees and soften to allow my body more shock absorbing. It helps. I also do yoga to re-align things in between chiro visits.

[Query]

Actually I had entirely the wrong idea. A PT told me, in relation to back exercises and some people's past injuries: "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger".

Sessy, how do you convince yourself to continue skating? Someone might think skating wasn't good for you.

[Sessy]

When I'm not skating, I essentially need anti-depressants because my body is naturally low on serotonin, and even then my ability to focus and my energy levels are low. I don't actually take them because of the side-effects, but I do instead go and engage in various activities in an unconscious effort to boost my happyness which can be less than healthy, or those which are counter-productive in other ways. Of the types of exercise that provide the necessary benefits for me, skating is by far the safest. Overall the problems skating provides are not so much for my back - there, the pro's balance out against the cons in the end. I definitely need to build up core before hitting the ice again later this year (summer recess here), though, cuz obviously I can't continue having my back pop like that every time I land. Summer homework, let's put it that way. I can't do *any* core exercises without hurting my back atm, though, so all I'm doing atm is just tensing all the core muscles often throughout the day and keeping them tense until they're tired. I'm figuring when I started skating that was all I was doing anyway and it still managed to build those muscles (I could do sit ups hanging upside down without my back bothering me!), so it should work now too. Lotsa muscle there really helps against all of my back problems. Besides, remember I can jump both CW and CCW and tend to do ever since I discovered flipping rotational directions is as easy as putting my mind gears in reverse, just for the heck of it (I still wanna see sometime if a cw-loop-ccw-lutz combo is even possible, lol). It kinda balances out a lot of the twisting. :twisted: Seriously with the spine the main problem seems to be when the forces that act upon it are not the same for both directions. The exertion of force in itself seems to not be a problem.

A funny wardrobe observation. I have quite a few corsets, some of which are intended to be laced tight around the waist to create a wasp waist. While I was skating many days a week and had a lot of muscle going on, I never could pull them tight at all, it would just constrict me, I couldn't create a waist with them. Now, I can really pull them tight and create a real waist like that. Apparently, fat gives a lot better than core muscle when you try to push it out of the way, lol! Who'd have thought. *grin*

I'll add the reason I was off-ice for 2 years and lost all of my muscle had nothing to do with my back, btw. My back should therefore still be in the same condition it was when I was skating, so I see no reason not to do what I did before with it.

[Query]

Sessy: May you find healthy ways to make yourself happy.