Questions about USFSA "PB" vs "Bronze" etc.

[Laura H]

Really odd comp yesterday (for me) at our rink, just hoping for some feedback for those of you who have been skating adult comps for a while . . .

Just to give you some background, my rink is a very young rink and its main focus is hockey . . . and we only has a couple of adult freestyle skaters, but we're adding on more all the time . . . but I am just curious why there seems to be such a discrepancy between "test requirements" and "well balanced program" requirements in USFSA? What I mean is, the actual prebronze Freestyle test only requires the two-foot spin and a one foot spin (I think - it's been a while since I looked at the requirements) and I think jumps could be a waltz jump and a Salchow . . . yet the well balanced program requirements, you could do spins up to a camel and jumps up to a lutz. We had some skaters from other rinks come to our rink comp yesterday, which was GREAT, but . . . the skater that won the PB actually had a camel - which not only have I never TRIED, but I'm still trying to get a consistent sit spin! :giveup:

Anyway, I was just curious as to why the prebronze requirements don't more closely mirror the actual requirements of the PB test? (and since our rink switched from ISI to USFSA in past few years, I admit I am really more used to the ISI thought process where you have certain elements to do, and everyone does the same ones . . . it was kind of strange to see how the USFSA adult "requirements" are more based on the few things you CAN'T do, no lutz, axel, flying spins. which, BTW, my coach and I had a good laugh about . . . the thought of me doing ANY of those . . . outside of the harness . . .eek!).

All in all, I was really happy with my :::sigh::: THREE 2nd place finishes because I really did skate very well for me, a lot more power and flow and basically, I just had FUN out there . . . like I told my kids afterwards, well, I might be "number 2" but I'm a darn GOOD "number 2!" :twisted:

[Skittl1321]

Yeah- that's pretty common with USFS, though less so with the adult levels then the kid levels.

Something you said "you could do spins up to a camel and jumps up to a lutz"- which mean the well balanced program doesn't REQUIRE you to do these things, just that it ALLOWS you to do them. The tests are minimum standards to compete at the level, not required elements for the programs, or maximum standards. PB usually has a "no-axel, no flying spin" limit, so you won't have people who are CRAZY good in that level.

I've found that most adults will move up when they can, whereas, kids usually don't move up until they are able to "win" at the next level. Many kids don't even take the pre-pre test until they have an axel! (For example, I'm PB right now, have a nice-enough camel spin, working on a (very low) flying sit, but I can't do a loop, so I can't pass my Bronze test yet. I'll never be able to do the flying sit in competition, but I could do the camel. However, seeing me jump, there would be no doubt I belong in PB.)

For kids event there is a "test track" competition event where the elements are limited, and there are also compulsory events, which have prescribed elemens. (Often for adults though it is just "adult compulsory" - which is horrible, because "adult spin" might be things from the gold level, and nothing is available for PB.)

If you want to have the tests be more closely aligned with the competition, ISI will be a better fit.

[Laura H]

Oh yeah - I had forgotten about how the kid tracks are also kind of strange once they move out of Freeskate 6 and go to pre-pre (my DS who is 11, skated at pre-pre for one comp, but is now focusing on hockey). We were 8O that he was skating at the FS 6 level with lutz, camel-sit etc., but then when you go to pre-pre . . . you suddenly have to do a HALF lutz . . . talk about confusing!! Like I said, we are getting used to the USFSA way of thinking, so I'm sure everything will make more sense eventually. ;)

[Debbie S]

What I mean is, the actual prebronze Freestyle test only requires the two-foot spin and a one foot spin (I think - it's been a while since I looked at the requirements) and I think jumps could be a waltz jump and a Salchow . . . yet the well balanced program requirements, you could do spins up to a camel and jumps up to a lutz. Actually, in Pre-Bronze, lutzes are not allowed. You can do up to a flip and can do a camel, sit or upright spin, but no flying spins (no flying spins in Bronze either but you can do a lutz there).

As Skittl said, in USFSA, test requirements and what you need to be competitive at a particular level are two different things. In the standard track, there is even more of a discrepancy. In Pre-prelim, you do a half lutz for the test, but b/c in comp skaters can do up to an axel, most coaches don't have their kids test up until they have at least landed an axel in practice. In the adult track, what you see in comp is not too far off what you see in the test, but there is still a gap.

Most adults do move up to Bronze as soon as they can pass the test, b/c then they can compete at AN. Generally, adults move up to Silver after a few years in Bronze, particularly if they've won or at least medaled a fair amount. Usually skaters in Silver are doing the same elements as you see in Bronze, just with higher quality and better overall skating. There are plenty of skaters at Silver that do axels and flying spins, but they are not always consistent, and I've seen non-axel Silver skaters beat those with axels on many occasions. Moving up to Gold requires an axel to pass the test (so a lot of skaters get 'stuck' at Silver), and usually that's the hardest element in most Gold skaters' programs. At AN, in Championship Gold, the top skaters may attempt a 2toe or 2sal. Since AN started using IJS for Gold and Masters, though, there seem to be fewer skaters attempting doubles, b/c the penalty for underrotating and/or falling is very high.

At each level, there are limits to what skaters can do in order to encourage skaters to keep testing up and advancing, and to prevent too wide a range in skills at each level. I believe the kids' limits at the lower levels were instituted in the late-90s, a few years after figures were dropped as a testing requirement, b/c you had skaters in Pre-Pre doing 2loops and skaters at Pre-Juv doing 2axels (these are 2 examples I heard about).

Sometimes, particularly at AN, you will see skaters in Bronze or Silver that could be competitive at the next level - sometimes the skater has been skating up in club comps but wants to 'go back' to the lower level at AN in order to medal/win, which is legal as long as they haven't passed the next FS test. Sometimes skaters can't test up b/c they haven't been able to pass the moves test at that level.

As Skittl mentioned, USFSA now offers Test Track competition levels where elements are limited to what is on the test at that level - my guess is they are trying to compete with ISI. They also want to encourage kids to keep testing and competing.

[Skittl1321]

Oh yeah - I had forgotten about how the kid tracks are also kind of strange once they move out of Freeskate 6 and go to pre-pre (my DS who is 11, skated at pre-pre for one comp, but is now focusing on hockey). We were 8O that he was skating at the FS 6 level with lutz, camel-sit etc., but then when you go to pre-pre . . . you suddenly have to do a HALF lutz . . . talk about confusing!! Like I said, we are getting used to the USFSA way of thinking, so I'm sure everything will make more sense eventually. ;)

The freeskate 6 level is part of the basic skills curriculum, and not really a line that goes to the test levels. If you look at the moves that are required in those classes, you'll see that they go quite high up the earlier tests. It's more of a way for the kids (and adults- I take freestyle group classes) to get introduced to the elements. The last requirement of the basic skills class is a walk through of an axel- obviously, you don't need to have an axel to take the first "real" test.

Most of the kids at my rink take their pre-pre test sometime around when they are in FS1 or FS2.

Many rinks don't do the freeskate classes at all- since after basic skills most kids go to private lessons.

[techskater]

Debbie pretty well nailed it with her response. The PB you saw probably is getting ready to test. I know the PB I skate with is going to take her Bronze moves before the summer and her FS test on the following test session. She's only been on ice for a year, but a lot of her roller skills translate over. Edgework has been harder for her, though.

[coskater64]

It is important to remember that the test standards are the minimum to compete at a level. (don't take offense) As stated above adult caps help encourage skaters who can do more to move up. Children on the standard track are the same, look at Nov, Jr, Sr level skaters they only do doubles for the test and compete with triples. At the adult levels it is more pragmatic, singles are capped through silver with the axel being the most difficult jump allowed at that level but it is not required for the test. Axel is required for the gold and most gold ladies attempt one double and at least the axel. As you move through the levels it will become more clear.....:halo::twisted:

[Isk8NYC]

I think there is a discrepancy for two major reasons:

1) skaters who've passed a test (in this case, Pre-Bronze) then start working on higher-level elements in order to prepare for the next test's elements (such as Bronze).

2) skaters can't always master ALL of the needed elements to take the next test, so they stay and compete at their highest test level.


It's different from ISI and USFS Basic Skills competitions where the skaters aren't allowed to do things from higher tests. In the USFSA, they want the skaters to keep working on the next level, so they don't have requirements or restrictions to hold them back.

[Laura H]

Thanks for the feedback . . . that does help a lot! I'm sure things will be clearer once we get more used to the USFSA format of competitions and get a few more under our belts.