Two newbie questions -- swizzles and 1st skates

[helikias]

Hi everyone!

I am brand new to skating. I am 39 and took my first figure skating lesson last week.

I have two questions:

1. When doing swizzles, I am having terrible trouble getting my feet back together in front at the end. What am I doing wrong? The instructor said t pull in with my inner thigh muscles, but I am not catching on.

2. What brand of skate would you recommend for someone who wants decent skates, but can only spend about $150 or so?

Thanks in advance! :)

[dbny]

Welcome to skating and to SkatingForums!

Before you do forward swizzles again, just stand still and put your heels together and your toes out (like you are getting ready to start a swizzle). Then switch to toes touching, heels out. Do this several times while standing as still as possible. This will help you determine if the problem is with your ability to point your toes in. If that is part of the problem, then do the heels touch/toes touch as an exercise before swizzling. This is the result of very open hips, which will be an asset later on!

The most common problem in bringing the feet back together on forward swizzles is caused by shifting the weight to the front of the blades. That will stop you every time. It's most often caused by looking down and/or bending forward at the waist. Keep in mind that your weight has to stay a bit to the back of the blade, and keep your knees slightly bent even as you straighten out your feet and pull in.

Unless you have very narrow feet, I like Jackson. Take a look at the boot & blade combinations. For very narrow feet, Riedell is a good choice. Every boot is shaped a bit differently, though, and Riedells have a very deep heel cup, which will cause bumps on your heels if your heels are fairly straight at the back (down the achilles).

[Isk8NYC]

For forward swizzles, think about using your KNEES.

Bend your knees and keep them bent throughout the swizzle.
Arms should be in front of you, around waist height.

Start the swizzle by turning your knees away from each other, like a frog's.
PUSH them apart about 12"
Then PULL the knees back together
When your feet are within an inch, just keep your knees straight ahead and glide.


Stay on the middle (front-to-back) of your foot and keep your weight spread evenly between both feet.

Don't let your legs spread open any wider than your hips because it will be difficult to pull them back together.
The muscles used for this (and many other skating moves that build on swizzles) get stronger over time, so be patient and start small.

[FLskater]

Congratulations on taking up figure skating at 39 - I was 35 when I first tried it, have been hooked for 8 years. And believe me, I am a slow learner, so I know exactly what you are going through with the swizzles!

When I first learned swizzles I could not for the life of me pull my feet back together after pushing them out. I think it was because of my lack of strength in my inner thighs. Definitely try doing small swizzles to try to get the feeling of how your toes need to be pointed in both positions, if you try to go too wide it will be harder for you at first to bring your legs in, but this will come in time.

I started off in Riedells, one of their beginner skates (don't remember which one, and they changed model names over the years). That was fine until I started jumping, and had to get better skates because I needed a better toepick and more ankle support. I am now in Jackson competitors with a Legacy blade - and that's considered an intermediate skate, cost me arond $275 around 5 years ago. That's a lot cheaper than other intermediate boot/blade combinations, so I recommend the Jacksons because they are a good quality and are less $$$.

Hope that helps! :)

[kayskate]

Swizzles:
I tell my students to start with heels together and bend the knees. Push the feet apart about hip width. Knees stay bent.The stand back up while pulling the toes together. It is an up-down motion w the knees concurrent w in-out motion of the feet/legs.

Skates:
Reidell medallion series. Any good quality rec skate should be a good start for you.

Kay

[Kat12]

I've got the Riedell 133s with the Saphire blade that comes on them (I believe you can also upgrade to a different blade--can't remember which--but my skate shop didn't even ask if I wanted to do that). I believe they ran me about $162 at my local-ish Rainbo Sports. The blade was deemed by my coach to be good for now (I'm a beginner too) and is nicer than the most basic Jackson blade (bigger toe pick, better rocker).

The lady at the skate shop said the 133s should take me through all my single jumps, though of course I'm sure this varies depending on the skater (I happen to be a lightweight-ish woman, so I can probably get away with more skating on less boot than heavier/taller folks or a guy could).

I was deciding between the 121s and the 133s. I preferred the 133s; they have a notch at the ankle, a bit higher boot for more support for jumps and such, that rolled collar at the top, and I didn't compare blades but the blade on the 133 might be better? Dunno if it's the same; I can't remember. They also were more comfy to walk in and she told me that I walked more naturally in them, though it seems someone said around here recently that they found more comfort in the less expensive boot of a couple they compared so I guess it depends on the person. I did feel that the 133s were an obvious step up from the lower line that included the 117s, 121s, etc.

However, as others have said, you'll need to be fitted for the brand of boot that fits your feet well. In my case, my fitter took one look at my feet and said "you have perfect Riedell feet." But you might find you need a different brand. However, if you do end up fitting Riedells well, now you know a bit about them. :)

(anybody know how you pronounce "Riedell," anyway? Is it like rye-dell, or ree-dell?)

[Clarice]

(anybody know how you pronounce "Riedell," anyway? Is it like rye-dell, or ree-dell?)

It's pronounced rye-dell, like the high school in "Grease".

[Layne]

If you're coming to a stop when your feet get to the outside, it's going to be much harder to pull them in. Get up some slight speed first and then start swizzling. As someone said though, be careful of going too far forward on the blades, or you'll end up on your face. Also for reasons I don't understand, swizzles make me want to fall backwards if I stop paying close attention so watch that too. It will get much easier as you get stronger.

[vesperholly]

Get up some slight speed first and then start swizzling.

PBI, I wouldn't recommend this. I see a lot of young skaters start with some gliding and then just wiggle their feet in and out. That isn't a swizzle. When your swizzles are good, you should be able to gain speed while doing them, even from a standstill.

One method that works for many of my students is to rise up out of your knee bend as your feet go in. Knees DOWN for the push out, UP for the slide in.

[Isk8NYC]

ITA about the speed - that's just faking it, not really learning how to use the edges. Anything can be faked with enough speed - I speak from experience, lol. To really master it, you have to do it from a standstill. Swizzles, rocking horses, two-foot spins, one foot spin entries, jump entries. It takes longer in the beginning to learn the skills, but they're much more solid and allow later progression to come more easily.

Wouldn't "knees up" put them in a face plant when they extend over their toepicks with straight knees? How much do you let them straighten?

Another major mistake newbies make is keeping their arms thisclose to their bodies. One little kid keeps her elbows at her sides at all times. I have to remind her over and over to stretch out her arms. Keeping the arms/shoulders back puts the skater on the back of their blades. When they straighten up, as vesperholly suggests, they lean back and lose their balance.

So, keep those arms where they can see them and weight stays in the middle of the skate. With my horseback riding students who skate, I tell them to put their "weight on the stirrups." That really works well.

[Query]

It's wierd. Some teachers say to let the knees bend during the outwards swizzle, and rise up during the inwards swizzle.

Others say the exact opposite.

Both seem to work. But I think I have more strength to close the skates back together the first way, and if my knees are strongly bent in the middle between the outwards and inwards twizzle. And I find them easier if I lean the blades strongly outwards (outside edges) when pushing apart, and inwards (inside edges) when pulling together. I do this both by the position of my knees, and by bending my ankles sideways.

Speed may indeed cover up many sins, but it is sure easier to rotate the feet inwards and start the motion while you are still gliding forwards from the outwards swizzle.

There is a strength issue here - which (along with the edge thing) is the whole point of teaching newbies to do swizzles. You are strengthening muscles to do things they usually don't do. So it will get better if you practice it enough. Not just your inner thighs. You can also use your abs and lower back and gluts (rear end) and the muscles at the sides to make this work, along with some leg strength around the knees. (All of the muscles are sometimes called "The Core".) You could use the muscles around your ankles a little to create more edging by bending the ankles too.

I guess you could lay on your back and put a basket-ball sized object between your legs and squeeze as an off-ice exercise to get stronger. Maybe Latin Dance steps would be a good exercise too - they like to roll the body weight and foot edge from outside of one leg, through the inside of that leg, to the inside and then the outside of the other leg, and back again. You could practice that even if you don't like dance.

Maybe some coaches are so strong they don't realize they are using more strength than some people have to make it work well.

It's easier to do the outwards swizzle, because you use those muscles all the time when walking or running. For a typical person, the midstride "rockover" from outside to inside edge of the foot supplies most of the energy for walking and running, according to a book for APTs.

I find swizzling continuously as fast as I can to be a pretty good workout for certain muscles in my core, and do it every time I'm on the ice.

ISk8NY, you must be right about the arms, but I bet it would be easier for a newbie to spread their arms together on the way out, and bring their hands together in front as the squeeze the legs together. That way they can concentrate on using their upper and lower body muscles at the same time, in the same direction, which might be easier for someone not used to the motion. It still helps me when I swizzle fast.

Hope some of that helps.

There may be a slight psychological fear issue, if you worry about falling. If you fall forwards you won't hurt your arms if you shoot the arms forwards and let them brush the ice in a slide. And if you fall back, tuck your head in (so the back of your head doesn't hit) and roll through the impact. Practice it from sitting and kneeling positions first, so you won't get hurt.

By the way, many people find backwards twizzles easier.

[phoenix]

IMO, strength has little to do w/ forward swizzles--it's more about timing and coordination.

What many beginners don't know (or aren't told) is that the first half of the swizzle--the push out--is a PUSH, and the glide back in is a GLIDE. Your feet come back together simply because you're angling your toes toward each other as you glide along. Done correctly, you should continue in a glide at the end of the swizzle, w/ your feet together.

This takes time to develop the guts and the feel of making that push out a true push on the first half of the swizzle. Once you get that, your feet will come back together with little to no effort.

Also because of that, the timing of when to bend the knees & when to rise is important, and also can take time to get the feel of doing it correctly. I agree w/ the motion of *down* for the push out, *rise* as your feet glide back together.

[phoenix]

And I find them easier if I lean the blades strongly outwards (outside edges) when pushing apart, and inwards (inside edges) when pulling together. I do this both by the position of my knees, and by bending my ankles sideways.

For a typical person, the midstride "rockover" from outside to inside edge of the foot supplies most of the energy for walking and running, according to a book for APTs.

This is incorrect--a swizzle done correctly is a continuous inside edge. And it's important to learn it correctly because it turns into correct stroking further down the line.

[dbny]

IMO, strength has little to do w/ forward swizzles--it's more about timing and coordination.

What many beginners don't know (or aren't told) is that the first half of the swizzle--the push out--is a PUSH, and the glide back in is a GLIDE. Your feet come back together simply because you're angling your toes toward each other as you glide along. Done correctly, you should continue in a glide at the end of the swizzle, w/ your feet together.

This takes time to develop the guts and the feel of making that push out a true push on the first half of the swizzle. Once you get that, your feet will come back together with little to no effort.

Also because of that, the timing of when to bend the knees & when to rise is important, and also can take time to get the feel of doing it correctly. I agree w/ the motion of *down* for the push out, *rise* as your feet glide back together.

I agree with all of this, except that I teach swizzles with three distinct parts: push, glide, pull. Ideally, there is acceleration when pushing the feet apart and again when pulling them in.

While it's easy to cheat when already moving, that can be a useful way to learn to point the toes in to complete the move, so I do sometimes have my students do that.

To get the push, when fear is involved, I have students stand facing the wall about an arm's distance out, and just do the push part of the move.

[Layne]

PBI, I wouldn't recommend this. I see a lot of young skaters start with some gliding and then just wiggle their feet in and out. That isn't a swizzle. When your swizzles are good, you should be able to gain speed while doing them, even from a standstill.

ITA about the speed - that's just faking it, not really learning how to use the edges. Anything can be faked with enough speed - I speak from experience, lol. To really master it, you have to do it from a standstill.

I wasn't suggesting you never learn to do it from a stop. I could not have learned to backward swizzle without pushing off from the wall. I don't think there would be much point in standing there scratching holes in the ice just for the sake of doing it right the very first time.

[dbny]

I don't think there would be much point in standing there scratching holes in the ice just for the sake of doing it right the very first time.

ITA. With the exception of tots, I have my students try forward swizzles from a standstill first, and then try from moving if it looks like frustration is setting in. I work hard at giving my students a positive experience.

[Query]

I think many of you who have skated a whiile don't realize there is a big strength differential. Most people never do anything that requires them to pull their legs together against resistance. Nor do they ever point their toes in, unless they skate or ski. Thus, even a couple pounds of force is difficult to produce, because the most relevant muscles never get used, and many people without athletic training have trouble recruiting other muscles for any purpose.

In addition some of us initially find pointing toes in to exceed our relaxed range of motion, which means we need a lot of strength. I still find two foot snowplow stops difficult - backwards snowplow stops, and one foot stops are a lot easier (especially on skis, but on skates too).

On the other hand, relatively few young kids have problems. Somehow their muscles are fairly fit, even the couch potatoes, and most of them are pretty flexible, compared to average adults.