A question about Spinning.

[FSWer]

Ok. I have been wondering about Spinning. When you start to Spin. To Spin correctly. Do skaters spin on their Flats (like I've been doing), or on their Toe-Picks? I've been trying a 2-foot. Or do you start on Flatts and end on Toe-Picks?

[Clarice]

You do not spin on the toe picks. You spin on edges. If you're working on your two-foot spin, both your feet are on inside edges. A regular one-foot spin is done on a back inside edge.

[Skittl1321]

If you're working on your two-foot spin, both your feet are on inside edges.

Wouldn't you have one on the inside and one on the outside? (Since one foot is kind of doing a forward spin while the other does a backspin?) To trace the same circle in the same direction- it seems like the edges need to be opposite.

I could be wrong though... just wondering.

[Clarice]

No, both feet are on inside edges. You're going around in a little circle. I guess one's on a back inside and the other's on a forward inside.

[Skittl1321]

No, both feet are on inside edges. You're going around in a little circle. I guess one's on a back inside and the other's on a forward inside.

How 'bout that. I'll have to pay attention to it next time I do one.

[FSWer]

No, both feet are on inside edges. You're going around in a little circle. I guess one's on a back inside and the other's on a forward inside.

So I would START on my Edges,and then STAY on my Edges.In which case my Edges are what give the Glide for the Spin it'self. Which is why we Spin,rather then just turn around on our feet fast, right? BTW. how do you make your arms when pulling them into you near your chest effect the Spin,rather then it just be a replacement of were you put your arms?Also what about a Single-Foot Spin were you lift one foot a little of the ice?

[MQSeries]

There's supposed to be a sweet spot just a little bit behind the toe-pick that if you spin on it you would spin "forever". I've never found it when I was skating :lol:.

[MQSeries]

What edge are you on when doing a layback?

[Isk8NYC]

Forward spins, including a layback, are done on a back inside edge, all backspins on a back outside edge. (Ignoring the now-common edge variation that beginners and elite skaters perform on the opposite edges, lol.)

[FSWer]

There's supposed to be a sweet spot just a little bit behind the toe-pick that if you spin on it you would spin "forever". I've never found it when I was skating :lol:.

What is ment by a sweet spot?

[Skittl1321]

The sweet spot is a slang term for the perfect spot on the blade to do a spin. It's the right location for the spin to work.

If you go in front of the sweet spot, you end up on the toe picks, too far back and you put too much pressure on the tail of the blade- both of these things will ruin a spin. If you are on the sweet spot it will work just right.

There is no way to tell someone where their sweet spot is. Each individual athlete has to feel it to know it's right. When you find it, your spins work just as they are supposed to. If you are off it- it's still possible to spin, but you might spin slower, less centered, dig your toe picks in, or drag up snow with the tail of your blade.

[FSWer]

Say,btw....is there anyone hee that can please post a Photo of the way Blades should look when Spinning?

[FSWer]

The sweet spot is a slang term for the perfect spot on the blade to do a spin. It's the right location for the spin to work.

If you go in front of the sweet spot, you end up on the toe picks, too far back and you put too much pressure on the tail of the blade- both of these things will ruin a spin. If you are on the sweet spot it will work just right.

There is no way to tell someone where their sweet spot is. Each individual athlete has to feel it to know it's right. When you find it, your spins work just as they are supposed to. If you are off it- it's still possible to spin, but you might spin slower, less centered, dig your toe picks in, or drag up snow with the tail of your blade.

So it just basicly means the spot on the blade that you find works for you,yourself when Spinning,right?

[MQSeries]

The blade is curved. If you could find your balance somewhere around the top of that curve then there would be the least amount of friction between the blade and the ice and hence your spin will last longer. That's how I think of the "sweet" spot.

[Clarice]

Think of a rocking chair. When the chair is just sitting there, it's not leaning towards the back of the rocker or towards the front of the rocker. Both rocker ends are up away from the floor, and the chair is sitting on a spot somewhere in the middle of the rocker. It's sitting on its sweet spot.

The sweet spot on the blade's rocker isn't exactly in the middle - it's a little further forward, but it's the same idea. If you stand still on your blades with your feet together, you can rock forward and backward toe to heel a little bit. Somewhere in there is a spot where both the toe picks and heel end of the blade are off the ice at the same time - that's the sweet spot. Like everybody has said, each skater has to experiment and find it for themselves.

[sk8joyful]

No, both feet are on inside edges.
You're going around in a little circle.
I guess one's on a back inside and the other's on a forward inside.

I've only recently (was off the ice for nearly a year 8O) started playing around with 2-ft. spins,
but I don't understand what you said here.
Also for now, I've given-up starting from the pivot :giveup:.
so
I skate on my L-foot, on a F-oe, right? (at least that's what it seems) -
And then, my R-foot, follows on a F-ie.
also -
How do we find the 'sweet'-spot?, while we're spinning...
and
How do we keep the rotations going... (yes, I know about the arms, drawing in), but there's ALOT more to it than that.

Please help out, if you would. Thanks!

[xtenshix]

i managed to hit that sweet spot today during practice ice, and man, it was like i was on a spinners high! it felt soooo good! now i have to work on consistancy. off-ice spinning doesnt help, i just fall forward and faceplant. :giveup:

[Kat12]

I'm finally figuring out the "hey stupid, you gotta press down on the BALL of your foot to get the right spot!" thing. Before I "figured out" spinning, that seemed like the wrong spot. And now I gotta train myself to keep my weight there or I lose it.

I find I can't spin off-ice, either. For one, my foot doesn't really HAVE a sweet spot, so spinning on my foot isn't like spinning on ice on a blade, and I have a feeling I could develop some bad habits if I manage to spin on the wrong spot off-ice without realizing and then try to translate that to on-ice....

[sk8joyful]

I find I can't spin off-ice, either. For one, my foot doesn't really HAVE a sweet spot, so spinning on my foot isn't like spinning on ice on a blade, and
I could develop some bad habits if I manage to spin on the wrong spot off-ice without realizing and then try to translate that to on-ice....

Fortunately, spinning on my feet on the dining-room linoleum has always, & continues fairly natural ;) to me.

I'm finally figuring out the "press down on the BALL of your foot to get the right spot!" thing.

Does "press down on the BALL" include shifting weight more forward, on the ice?, & how then do we avoid our picks? - seems like another tricky beast, lol
.

[GoSveta]

Does "press down on the BALL" include shifting weight more forward, on the ice?, & how then do we avoid our picks? - seems like another tricky beast, lol
.
You really need to feel it. When you spin you will find the sweet spot because any other spot will not be optimal for spinning for you. Once you get the feel for it, it won't be hard to avoid going too far forward or back on the blade. The sweet spot feels really... frictionless. Once you feel it, nothing else will compare to the rush (and you may have to stop yourself a few times at first, cause it will feel like you're going at 1K RPM).

[sk8joyful]

You really need to feel it.
When you spin you will find the sweet spot because any other spot will not be optimal for spinning for you. Once you get the feel for it, it won't be hard to avoid going too far forward or back on the blade. The sweet spot feels really... frictionless. Once you feel it, nothing else will compare to the rush (and you may have to stop yourself a few times at first, cause it will feel like you're going at 1K RPM).

Great! & thanks! - so, the evidence that one has "found the sweet spot" is when one continues spinning frictionless? & effortlessly?

Hm, I wish I had someone helping me find :) it.
.

[GoSveta]

Only a very small part of the blade will contact the ice when you're spinning on that spot. That is why there is very little feeling of friction, and you're able to spin faster (and longer).

You don't lose as much energy/speed during the spin because you can center better/faster and won't have to make many (if any) adjustments during the spin when you are able to find that spot (or have it ingrained in your muscle memory i.e. Lucinda Ruh, Natalie Krieg).

This is because... If you're too far forward or back on your blade during the spin, you will have to shift your weight to "find" that optimal spinning point on the blade).

It's just like a Top. When it's not centered while spinning, it wobbles, slows down, travels, and topples eventually falls over.

The reason why I say you need to feel it is because looking at someone do it won't teach you much. Different blades have different rocker profiles, and different people have different feet and weight distributions. You have to spin and find out where your sweet spot is. It's largely about the blade, but it's also about the skater...

[Isk8NYC]

Great! & thanks! - so, the evidence that one has "found the sweet spot" is when one continues spinning frictionless? & effortlessly?

Hm, I wish I had someone helping me find :) it.
.

Try this:

Stand by the wall and hold on lightly, just for balance.
Stand on the toerake of your spinning foot and "swish" back and forth in place.
The toepicks will grind into the ice. (Hint: not good for spinning)
Now, roll down off the toepicks onto the front of the blade.
Keep "swishing" - you'll feel the bottom toepick still catch a bit.

Move back a little more and you'll feel the sweet spot - it's where the toepick doesn't scratch and the rest of the blade doesn't scrape the ice.

The rocker/spin spot *should be* under the ball of your foot. You can press on that spot easily if it is by lifting your toes inside your skate and keeping your weight on the ball of your foot.

If you feel the blade scraping up snow, you've gone back too far on the blade.

From there, it's just practice.


One note: I've had blade problems galore. A mismounted blade will scrape even if you are on the rocker. A blade with a damaged edge or rocker will put you on the toepick every time. If you have a sharpening done and suddenly have spin trouble, get your blades checked if it lasts more than two skating sessions.

[sk8joyful]

Try this:

Stand by the wall and hold on lightly, just for balance.
Stand on the toerake of your spinning foot and "swish" back and forth in place.
The toepicks will grind into the ice. (Hint: not good for spinning)
Now, roll down off the toepicks onto the front of the blade.
Keep "swishing" - you'll feel the bottom toepick still catch a bit.

Thank you! for your kind suggestions.

Thus far I've never felt any parts of my toepicks 'grind or scratch' the ice (incldg. on fxo's)
except on jump launch, plus teachers have said I'm good :) on that score.


Move back a little more and you'll feel the sweet spot -
it's where the toepick doesn't scratch and the rest of the blade doesn't scrape the ice.
If you feel the blade scraping up snow, you've gone back too far on the blade.

Next practice I'll see if there's snow piling up behind me, lol
also,
when you say "feel" the blade: since my kinesthetic-sense cont. returning, being able to readily notice what I feel, & where, cont. being iffy.


The rocker/spin spot *should be* under the ball of your foot. You can press on that spot easily if it is, by lifting your toes inside your skate and keeping your weight on the ball of your foot.

ok, do I practice this, 1st. at the barrier? - by holding on, & "lifting toes inside skate(s) and keeping weight on the ball of foot." -
Asking, as (sans the pivot), I'm doing 2-ft. spins currently. - And finding the Sweet-spot there, I would think I'll remember it readily anywhere?


From there, it's just practice.

Yeah, & why we call it that ;)

I do know, most of my ice-challenges stem from an unreliable kinesthetic-sense, I'm regaining sorta inconsistently. - And if I had an experienced-skater observing me, I could be helped becoming more aware, faster. Anyway, this is my belief plus has been my experience.


One note: I've had blade problems galore. A mismounted blade will scrape even if you are on the rocker. A blade with a damaged edge or rocker will put you on the toepick every time. If you have a sharpening done and suddenly have spin trouble, get your blades checked if it lasts more than two skating sessions.

Fortunately, we have one of the best :!: Sharpeners going; in short, the man is a saint! :D
.

[dbny]

You do not spin on the toe picks. You spin on edges. If you're working on your two-foot spin, both your feet are on inside edges. A regular one-foot spin is done on a back inside edge.

Wouldn't you have one on the inside and one on the outside? (Since one foot is kind of doing a forward spin while the other does a backspin?) To trace the same circle in the same direction- it seems like the edges need to be opposite.

No, both feet are on inside edges. You're going around in a little circle. I guess one's on a back inside and the other's on a forward inside.

My first thought was also that one foot is on a BI edge and the other on a BO edge, so I asked my coach in my last lesson, and she agreed with me and Skittl1321. If you are on the sweet spot on both feet, then you will be on different edges and not going around in a little circle on inside edges only. To do that, your feet would have to be almost parallel, several inches apart, and your weight would have to be more to the center of the blades.

Another exercise for finding and holding the sweet spot:

After doing Isk8NYC's excellent exercise at the boards, so you know where the sweet spot is, skate slowly backwards into a two foot glide. Tighten up your core, hold your arms out, and pick up one foot, slowly rising to the sweet spot on the foot you intend to spin on. Try to hold that position without scraping the toe or falling back to the ball of the foot. This is a really hard one, but it can work wonders.

[Clarice]

My first thought was also that one foot is on a BI edge and the other on a BO edge, so I asked my coach in my last lesson, and she agreed with me and Skittl1321. If you are on the sweet spot on both feet, then you will be on different edges and not going around in a little circle on inside edges only. To do that, your feet would have to be almost parallel, several inches apart, and your weight would have to be more to the center of the blades.



Interesting! Now I'm going to have to check it out next time I'm on the ice!

[FSWer]

Say,btw.,how do I find my max. speed when spining with skates (the same speed I can go in my shoes)? Also, how do I get myself to spin freely? Am I supposed to be lifting myself up onto my Toe-picks? As when I've been spining,I just end-up pushing off on my Edges with each turn I make. Can anyone help me?

[Isk8NYC]

FSWer - I'm confused: you started THIS thread with the same questions and multiple people have answered them.
Try reading through slowly from the first post forward because I think you have all the answers here already.

If you're working on your two-foot spin, both your feet are on inside edges. A regular one-foot spin is done on a back inside edge.
I can spin in both directions and I always use the inside edges for a two-foot spin. It does feel like you're tracing a small circle and the tracings will show that, so ITA with you.

The trick is to keep your toes turned in a bit, like this: /\ and stay on the front of the blade, but behind the toepicks. I try not to think about it, but one foot is going forward and the other backward. When I'm feeling lazy, I tend to put most of my weight on one foot - the other one's on the ice just for show, and I even let it ride on the heel as long as no one's watching carefully, lol. It doesn't matter for a Basic Skills class - the USFSA just specifies that one foot is traveling backwards and the other forwards - no edges are required, and they're not even taught until several levels later in the curriculum.

The turned-in foot position does makes it easier to teach skaters to shift weight and pick up one foot for the introductory one-foot spin later on.

I tried the LBI/RFO trick described above and that's pretty much impossible because the feet spread apart too easily. It would be good for teaching a changefoot or even an opposite-edge spin, though. I would worry that it would cause a trip or slideout for a beginner if they tried to hold their feet on opposite edges in the same direction. (A forward spin is on the BI edge, a backspin is on the BO edge.)

I don't think you'll see a benefit in having a two-foot spin set up the backspin later on. That's better done with other exercises that emphasize edging and turning.

[Skittl1321]

I don't think you'll see a benefit in having a two-foot spin set up the backspin later on. That's better done with other exercises that emphasize edging and turning.

(The rest of your post was interesting too. To be honest, I just always thought it was the edges I posted earlier, I really can't tell when I'm spinning and when I was corrected earlier I tried to focus on it and can't. I tried 2 foot spin in both directions and couldn't really tell for either.)

Why do you not like to do the backspin from a 2-foot spin. I've seen most beginners get this from "2 foot spin and pick your foot up approach" before you start an entrance with a T-push/edge.

I'm wondering if you've seen bad habits develop, or just personal preference. (I don't teach at that level. My snowplow kids aren't doing backspins...)

[Kim to the Max]

I know I don't stay on the 2 foot spin, pick up the other foot backspin for very long. I do it once or twice so my students can get the feeling of something new in a "safe" context. I move pretty quickly to the inside edge entry because that it how they are expected to do it in FS 3 for the Basic Skills levels.

--Kim

[Clarice]

I can spin in both directions and I always use the inside edges for a two-foot spin. It does feel like you're tracing a small circle and the tracings will show that, so ITA with you.

The trick is to keep your toes turned in a bit, like this: /\ and stay on the front of the blade, but behind the toepicks. I try not to think about it, but one foot is going forward and the other backward. When I'm feeling lazy, I tend to put most of my weight on one foot - the other one's on the ice just for show, and I even let it ride on the heel as long as no one's watching carefully, lol. It doesn't matter for a Basic Skills class - the USFSA just specifies that one foot is traveling backwards and the other forwards - no edges are required, and they're not even taught until several levels later in the curriculum.

The turned-in foot position does makes it easier to teach skaters to shift weight and pick up one foot for the introductory one-foot spin later on.



I checked on the ice, and I do indeed do a two foot spin exactly as you describe it here. I also checked with my coach, and she teaches it this way for the very reason you've stated.

[Isk8NYC]

BACKSPIN EXPLANATION:

I know I don't stay on the 2 foot spin, pick up the other foot backspin for very long. I do it once or twice so my students can get the feeling of something new in a "safe" context. I move pretty quickly to the inside edge entry because that it how they are expected to do it in FS 3 for the Basic Skills levels.

--KimI do the same - it's not that I don't like the technique, it just doesn't teach the real backspin and the feeling of being over the back outside edge. Beginners tend to do the backspin on the forward inside edge because they're used to keeping their weight on the forward-spin foot.

They start learning the backspin well after they've mastered the forward upright spins, including the scratch spin, so I doubt they'd remember learning the two-foot spin. It's just overkill to at that point. The balls of the feet are more important than what edges are in use to a beginner.

For a backspin, I also use the two-foot-to-backspin just to get the opposite foot concept into their mind, then I have them do turn-and-pickup from a standstill. (CCW: Skater stands still in a pivot position, right foot in front, left foot behind, check to the right side. They turn to the left, closing the hip and picking up the free foot to initiate the spin. I like having the skater use the right toepick to turn, so that they don't get stuck on an edge.)

At the same time, I teach the tightly checked snail-shell entry as an edge exercise. (Just draw a small snail-shell curve, spiraling into the center of a hockey dot and have them skate it on an inside edge, start to finish. Arms are always checked to the right.)

When they've gotten the hang of both, I have them put it together and do the FI3 entry from the snail-shell, then turn and pick up the free leg in front while checking throughout the entry/spin when they reach the center of the circle.

Back outside power pulls really help with the backspin since it builds directional strength and also the spin exit.

[Isk8NYC]

I checked on the ice, and I do indeed do a two foot spin exactly as you describe it here. I also checked with my coach, and she teaches it this way for the very reason you've stated.
While that's the way I always did it, I had never thought to tell the skaters to pidgeon-toe their feet before attending a Basic Skills Teacher workshop. It just made perfect sense when the on-ice instructor mentioned it. That "Learn to Teach" seminar was loaded with helpful info. It should have been worth more PSA educational credits.

[sk8joyful]

Yesterday this thread was still in "General Skating Chat, Polls & Discussion", where I participated repeatedly.

Now today it's in "On Ice - Parents/Coaches": yes I'm a mom
(of a skater currently not skating), but I'm not a coach; so can I even post in this thread anymore??

Please someone explain, why this thread was moved at all; or at least move it to "On Ice - Skaters" where it really belongs.

Thank you! :)

[drskater]

While that's the way I always did it, I had never thought to tell the skaters to pidgeon-toe their feet before attending a Basic Skills Teacher workshop. It just made perfect sense when the on-ice instructor mentioned it. That "Learn to Teach" seminar was loaded with helpful info. It should have been worth more PSA educational credits.

Isk8NYC = superstar instructor!!!

My coach INSISTS on the pidgeon-toe for the 2 ft spin.The slight pressure it takes to get this stance prevents the two feet from spinning around each other, which is very common when first starting to spin. She notes that it creates a stable "platform" for the upper body. We're working on the beginning layback from a 2-ft spin and this position really helps.

[drskater]

Say,btw.,how do I find my max. speed when spining with skates (the same speed I can go in my shoes)? Also, how do I get myself to spin freely? Am I supposed to be lifting myself up onto my Toe-picks? As when I've been spining,I just end-up pushing off on my Edges with each turn I make. Can anyone help me?

It can take a loooooong time to learn to spin. Really, it is not something you can learn from reading about it. Try bending your left leg, imagining that it is a pole stuck in the ice, and bring your entire right side around it in a circular motion (arm, shoulder, torso, foot all moving together). When you've brought the right side of your body about 3/4 the way around, "pop" up your bent left leg into straight (actually, more or less straight) position, while balanced with your arms out to the side in the 10:00 and 2:00 o'clock position. Keep your hips under your torso (don't break at the waist) and allow yourself to begin to spin. Do NOT worry about speed yet. Get used to that initial feeling. Next do the same thing but imagine your arms are holding a beach ball (put your arms in the position as if you were holding a beach ball). Slowly (once you feel balanced) draw your arms together and slowly pull them together towards the middle of your chest. Practice just getting a spin in a balanced position before you even think about edges and speed. Fast spins can only work once you've mastered that basic balanced position. I know you can do it! You work hard and that's more than a lot of skaters can say.

[sk8joyful]

Who knows why the thread on Spinning got moved; but
as I'm playing-around with 2-ft. Spins, I continue asking:
1.
Think of a rocking chair.
The sweet spot on the blade's rocker isn't exactly in the middle - it's a little further forward.
If you stand still on your blades with your feet together, you can rock forward and backward -toe to heel- a little bit.
Somewhere in there is a spot where both the toe picks and heel end of the blade are off the ice at the same time - that's the sweet spot.

Unless the rocker is very pronounced,
in order to have the rear OFF the ice too, wouldn't we be on tip-toes? - and
why (in the other thread) I asked my 1st. question.

2. Try this:
The rocker/spin spot *should be* under the ball of your foot.
You can press on that spot easily if it is by lifting your toes inside your skate and keeping your weight on the ball of your foot.

if the blade at its highest point, is a bit further back, than where the ball of our foot, rests - What do we do?
Stuff cotton into our skate, I guess??

(When I bought these Reidell-skates, from the rink-coach, on fitting me, I told her a 6+1/2 fit the best;
but this is a 1/2-size larger than her Stocked-boots, & she didn't want to have to order the 6+1/2,
so I told my coach at the time, but coaches tend to stick together, and
chalk it up to "Beginners don't :roll: know what they're talking about" -
Fortunately, this boot is 1/2-size smaller than the 1st. boots I had, miles too big!!!)

3.
If you are on the sweet spot on both feet, then you will be on different edges and not going around in a little circle on inside edges only.
To do that, your feet would have to be almost parallel, several inches apart, and your weight would have to be more to the center of the blades.

Well, that "almost parallel, several inches apart, and your weight would have to be more to the center of the blades."
- is sorta what's happening now, I think. -
Of course, I can't really tell AS I'm doing it, because I'm giving it my best to keep the spin going... :lol:

4.
Another exercise for finding and holding the sweet spot:
After doing Isk8NYC's excellent exercise at the boards, so you know where the sweet spot is, skate slowly backwards into a two foot glide.
Tighten up your core, hold your arms out, and pick up one foot,
slowly rising to the sweet spot on the foot you intend to spin on.

That's great! for skaters having learned backwards on one foot. - Another new thread :lol:

I'm still at the point where I'd be very happy ;) getting 7 revs. on 2-ft.

Well, thank you!! for helping out, again!
.

[Clarice]

Who knows why the thread on Spinning got moved; but
as I'm playing-around with 2-ft. Spins, I'm continue asking:
1.

Unless the rocker is very pronounced,
in order to have the rear OFF the ice too, wouldn't we be on tip-toes? - and
why (in the other thread) I asked my 1st. question.



I'll address this part, since I said it in the first place! Just set your skate on a table top and look - you'll see that you can get it in a position where neither the toe picks nor the heel are resting on the table. It's balanced on a spot somewhere in the middle. The trick is to find that spot while you're actually wearing the skates. You really don't have to move very much - it's a very subtle shift.

[Isk8NYC]

Yesterday this thread was still in "General Skating Chat, Polls & Discussion", where I participated repeatedly.

Now today it's in "On Ice - Parents/Coaches": yes I'm a mom
(of a skater currently not skating), but I'm not a coach; so can I even post in this thread anymore??

Please someone explain, why this thread was moved at all; or at least move it to "On Ice - Skaters" where it really belongs.

Thank you! :)
EXPLANATION:

It was moved because the moderator only realized today that it was in the wrong forum. I was surprised to find it was in the wrong place because we have a few members who usually remark on misplaced threads. No one did, so I took care of it myself once I became aware of the error.

It could have gone in "On Ice - Skaters" but since it wasn't started there and most of the people replying to it were coaches and instructors, I moved it to the Parents/Coaches forum.

And now you have your explanation and I've also merged your duplicate thread.

[Sessy]

Take a look what they're spinning at:
http://z.about.com/d/figureskating/1/0/-/N/-/-/scratch.jpg
(click on the image to zoom in for a detailed view)

Not the toepicks, but not a flat either as you can see. On the sweet spot just behind the picks :)
In reality, it feels like spinning on the ball of your foot (as opposed to on your entire foot or on your toes)