Follow-up on rocker/new blades question

[san]

I'd posted recently about the rocker on my new MK Pro blades and the adjustment problems I'm having. The profile of the rocker is much rounder than I remember it ever being before (I've always had MK Pro blades).

I've skated on the blades for about 4 hours (I also have new boots, which are very comfortable and very similar to my old boots), and while there has been a bit of improvement in crossovers, I am shocked at how little I am able to do on these new skates.

I am between Silver and Gold as far as skating ability--I have all my singles through a lutz, used to have an axel and doubles as a kid, can do all my basic spins (scratch, sit, camel, layback, back spin, camel/sit combo). My old blades had gotten very flat, making it necessary to muscle my camel, especially the combo, but otherwise I didn't have much trouble spinning.

With the new skates, I cannot spin. I can go around maybe 3 times in a very slow, very bad, scratch spin. In my old flat blades, I could do a fast, 15 rev scratch. I also cannot jump. At all. Not even a waltz jump.

MIF have not improved. If anything, it's harder to check my forward three turns. I haven't tried any back 3's or brackets b/c I feel so insecure.

Coach watched me for a minute today and was happy b/c my back crossovers are not scratchy anymore. She's happy, but I'm near hysterics b/c I've never experienced this sort of adjustment period before, and I've been skating for over 30 years. The last time I broke in new skates and blades, I did it while skating once a week in group lessons for 30 minutes a shot, and didn't have any problems whatsoever, so I don't understand what's happening this time around.

I don't think the sharpening job that the pro shop did is very good, and I am taking the skates to a different sharpening guy tomorrow to check the blades and the mounting.

Coach thinks all these problems are to be expected, and that it may take months to get everything back. Based on past experience with breaking in new blades, however, I am suspicious that these new MK Pro blades are just not suitable for me for whatever reason.

I've read through the archives and it seems there is a wide range of experience with new equipment. So, my question is, at what point to you throw in the towel and try something else? I realize 4 hours isn't that much time on new equipment, but to go from being a fairly advanced adult skater to not being able to execute any of the spins or jumps that I've been doing since I was 7 years old seems a little extreme.

Thought and suggestions? Thanks!

[eliza1]

Hi San! I can empathize with you!!! There should be an old post from me in the last 3 weeks with regards to the same problems, however, I had gone from a Phantom to a Gold Seal. At the same time, I had replaced my Wifas with the same model of Wifas, however, something felt odd and I could never put my finger on it. I never felt secure or as if I was always having to recheck everything I did.....anyway, Wifa had redesigned their model (slightly) and I thought it was the heel height so I moved to a Riedell boot but still with the Gold Seals. I still seemed to have problems but not as severe. Fast forward another few months and the screws in the heel portion broke (leaving screws in the heels), so, I tried drilling them out (unsuccessfully) and couldn't get to my professional person for another week so I decided that rather then missing a week on the ice, I would put my Phantoms back on the Wifas. Wow, what a difference this made -- I felt back to myself again and my coaches noticed an immediate improvement! One of my coaches (who just started teaching me last spring) had never seen me skate in the Phantoms and could tell an immediate difference. Of course, it took me about 2 weeks to get my spins back to normal but everything else improved straight away. On the Gold Seals I felt like was standing a lot higher off the ice (stanchon is higher than Phantoms) and I never felt "right" -- as if I was standing on a bowling pin and couldn't find my balance. It is very hard to explain -- running through programs was a complete disaster -- my transitions were all over the place! It was last February when I switched to Gold Seal and I gave them a VERY long time (almost a year) but just never adjusted, which I thought was very strange because I assumed any blade would suit anyone! Mind you, you probably need to give yours a fair chance -- less than a week isn't very long. If you had no rocker left and are now on a new rocker, it might take you a month or so to adjust, so maybe don't throw the towel in yet??! Saying that, I know how frustrating it is ...I was near quitting because I wasn't enjoying getting on the ice anymore, and I am an addict!! Keep us posted -- I am very interested in this subject!!

[sk8rdad59]

How old were your previous blades? IIRC you said in the other post that the new blades were the same make/model. If that is so then I would guess that your previous set of blades were fairly old and had been sharpened many times. Sharpening alters the profile of a blade and if done too many times or by an less experienced sharpener the profile may have changed drastically from the original.

You would likely not have noticed the changes over time but now that you have moved back to a properly profiled blade you would notice the difference.
Over the years I have learned that if the blade is at the point where the sharpener is starting to tweek the bottom pick it is time to start thinking about new blades. A really good sharpener will give you a status update on the state of your blades.

[Query]

If you want to spin and turn easier, emphasize the sweet spot, and make sure it is where you prefer to spin - a very small rocker profile change, that only wastes a little metal.

I haven't got very detailed instructions, but see Blade Sharpening at

http://mgrunes.com/boots/BootBlade.html

If your sharpener is really good, he/she can do it.

If you feel really really strongly, you could ask your sharpener to match the rocker profile of your new blades to those of the old ones. That will waste a lot of metal, and probably isn't a good idea, but I'm not a silver or gold level skater!, so can't say what you need. Maybe you should just wait a few weeks and see if you can adapt to the new blade shape.

One minor issue with MK blades: Apparently they are often sharpened inconsistently at the factory. Check whether the blades have the same profile (trace or photocopy them both, then superimpose), and whether there is any place the rocker profile is concave. Also check whether the hollow diameter is the same between the two blades, and is the same as your old blades. Changing hollow diameter wastes metal too, but you have probably gotten used to a particular hollow.

Even new blades may need a sharpening, by the way, especially the MK ones, if the factory job wasn't very good.

Shop owners have told me Ultima blades are much more consistent in their sharpening, for whatever reason.

[san]

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to see my regular skate sharpening guy today and am hoping that he can help me out. I bought the new boots/blades from a different shop, and that was probably a mistake.

eliza, I'd read your post from a few weeks back, and that's actually what got me thinking that maybe sometimes one just can't adjust to the blades. The bowling pin analogy is exactly how I feel.

sk8rdad, my previous MK Pro blades were 15 years old. That being said, there were many of those 15 years that I did not skate much. There were many years where the blades were only sharpened once a year. So there have been maybe 20ish sharpenings on these blades, even though they are so old.

When I'd gotten the last pair of MK Pro blades 15 years ago, I never had this feeling of standing on a bowling pin, like eliza said. That's why I wonder if the rocker profile has been redesigned.

Query, thanks for the link. I am taking my old skates with me to my sharpening guy, so he can compare the profiles to my new skates, as well as comparing the mounting, so maybe he can change the rocker slightly to match more what I had. I realize my old blades were pretty flat, but I'm 99% certain they never started out as "rockery" as the new blades are.

My dilemma is, if these new MK Pros prove to be unsuitable for me, I don't know what to switch to. I've only skated on MK Pros. I'm contemplating Coronation Comets, just b/c they are the flattest blade on the market. Plus I'm tall (5' 9"), so it seems to me a flatter blade might make more sense?

[Query]

I'm not saying you necessarily want to match your old profile. Think of all that lost metal and the loss of blade life that goes with it. If you can get what you want by emphasizing the sweet spot, and not incidentally moving it to exactly where you spin most comfortably, you may not need that. Removing metal is not a reversible operation.

You will spin like a top if the blade is shaped like a top, with a sudden convex change of rocker where you want to spin, or with a lower diameter rocker where you want to spin.

There were many years where the blades were only sharpened once a year.

Do you not like your blades sharp?

I like sharp because my balance and technique isn't so good. Letting my blades get dull sometimes is good for my balance, because if I my center of gravity is off even a little, I skid - but I do that a lot when the blades are dull, no matter how hard I try. I think people who don't need sharp blades must have very, very good balance and technique.

But if you don't keep your blades very sharp - maybe they spin easier? Or at least differently? And the new ones may be very sharp, which might be the problem?

With a smaller diameter rocker (less flat), the new blade will require more ankle flexion, forward and back. If flexibility is an issue, that could be a problem. Or it could just be something you need to get used to.

Maybe it would help if you could tell us what you feel different in your body when you say you can't jump or spin. I think we know our own bodies and the ways they respond better than people give us credit for, and that with a little paying attention and experimentation you can probably work it all out for yourself.

But let your coach should be in on the sharpening decisions - he/she is a professional, who is supposed to be trained to understand this and to troubleshoot problems. Most of us aren't, but are only relying on our own experience - in my case, a lot lower level experience.

[san]

Do you not like your blades sharp?

It's not that I don't like them sharp--the years when they were sharpened once a year were years where either I'd taken many months off to have babies, or when I was only skating once a week for 40 minutes. I didn't start skating more often until about 5 years ago, when I started skating twice a week, for a total of 2 hours a week. Those years I had them sharpened about every 4-5 months. The past couple of months I've been skating 3-5 days a week in order to prep for a competition, but that's a totally new development.

The new blades were just sharpened to a 1/2" radius by someone who is not my regular sharpener. My regular guy is vague on measurement, and does it more by feel, so I don't know what radius my old blades are.

With a smaller diameter rocker (less flat), the new blade will require more ankle flexion, forward and back. If flexibility is an issue, that could be a problem. Or it could just be something you need to get used to.

The ankle flexion may indeed be a big part of the problem, with the stiffer boots on top of a more pronounced rocker.

Maybe it would help if you could tell us what you feel different in your body when you say you can't jump or spin.

With the spinning, I can't get over the blade. I'm dropping to the inside, which may be a technique problem b/c I feel so unsteady. The back crossover entry feels different b/c I can't go up on my toe pick at the last minute before stepping into the spin like I used to, so it's throwing all body alignment off when I go into the spin.

With the jumps, I've only tried a waltz jump, which felt so bad I can't even fathom doing any other jump. And I have up through a lutz. The process of getting over the rocker and onto the toe pick to take off feels like I am sliding on the top of a ball. I feel like I have no control or grip. Same feeling on the landing.

But let your coach should be in on the sharpening decisions - he/she is a professional, who is supposed to be trained to understand this and to troubleshoot problems.

Coach had suggested a 5/8" grind, thinking duller blades would help in the beginning. I tried it, and felt like I was sliding sideways. So I had the 1/2" put on, but I think the entire sharpening is "off", as in uneven edges. I'll find out soon when I get over to the other skate shop.

I don't feel like I "feel" the edges. Power pulls are SO hard in these skates. Three turns feel out of control on the exit. Everything just feel very strange.

[san]

Well, I am back from the skate shop (not the shop that sold me the boots/blades, but the shop I should've gone to in the first place), and am happy to report that both boots and blades are defective.

The boots are too big, plus have a warped area, and are breaking down (they have creases bigger than my 5 year old boots, and I've only worn them 4 hours).

The blades--those horrible blades--measured out to be a 5 1/2' or 6' rocker instead of a 7', plus have about half the sharpenable metal area that they are supposed to (they have the same amount as my 15 year old blades). Plus the sharpening job was uneven, as I'd suspected. I compared them to a pair of display MK Pros, and the difference in rocker was startling.

So, I was right on my gut feeling that the blades were defective. I feel vindicated. I knew this pair of MK Pros felt completely different than any MK Pro blade I'd skated on. I'm irritated with my coach for not taking my concerns seriously--she actually told me I was being "picky" and said I needed to be patient with the adjustment period. Adjustment period, my patootie. I'd showed her the blades, told her I thought there was something wrong, and she said they were fine. Also thought the sharpening was fine, when I could clearly tell it wasn't.

I'm also irritated with the guy who sold me these things. Of course, it's partially my fault for not following my instincts and going to the other place to begin with. I will go back to him next week and see what can be done. I'm assuming Riedell will replace the equipment for free (I'll have them send the boots in the correct size, obviously), then I'll take the boots and blades to my other guy for sharpening and mounting.

Thank you to all who gave me input on this, and thank you for listening to my rant. I'm so relieved that there was something wrong with these skates, b/c I was not willing to "adjust" to them under the conditions they were creating.

[aussieskater]

Poor you! But at least you know what's wrong now. Are you going to be able to get your money back on these, and get them replaced at the shop you wanted to go to in the first place? That's a lot of money for faulty equipment!

[eliza1]

Well, how interesting!! That is great you have found out the problem!! Wonder if the Gold Seals I tried for so many months were defective somehow?? Trust me, though, I will not even try going back there -- I will stick to my Phantoms FOREVER!!!! I know how you feel with regards to your coach thinking you are just moaning -- my coaches were fed up with hearing me for months but I just knew something didn't feel right!! Let us know how you feel once all of your equipment is replaced!!

[san]

Eliza, I sent you a PM. I think your Gold Seals may have been defective as well, from the similarity between what you were describing and what I was experiencing. Interesting that your coaches didn't take heed, either.

Aussieskater, I'm going to have the shop who sold me the skates send them back to Riedell, who should replace everything for free since it's defective. What I'm concerned about is their quality control in general, however, and I'm wondering if the new set will be any better. I guess I'll find out soon enough. I've never, ever, had problems with Riedell/MK before, so the whole thing is surprising.

As much of a pain in the butt it is to send things back, etc., I am just so relieved that something was radically wrong with the equipment, b/c like I said, I couldn't even begin to fathom dealing with an adjustment period like the one I was supposedly having.

[Query]

I learned long ago that if something doesn't work, it must be the equipment's fault. :lol:

Were they customs?

It's a shame Riedell isn't one of the companies where you can travel with your skates back to the factory to get everything right, as far as I know. I think their factory is in China. There is a lot good to be said for doing that for the initial boot fit and going back again for adjustments, though travel is expensive for people far from the factory.

[san]

Were they customs?

No, they are stock. I've always had stock Riedell boots, and have never, ever had a problem. I've never had a blade issue, either, so all of this is very surprising.

Wish I could go to the factory, too. Oh well. I guess I've been lucky in all my years of skating that this is the first time I've had equipment issues. I guess it goes along with everything else in life that isn't as good of quality as it used to be.

[Bill_S]

It's a shame Riedell isn't one of the companies where you can travel with your skates back to the factory to get everything right, as far as I know. I think their factory is in China.



Most Riedell skates are made in their Red Wing, MN factory in the USA.

According to Chris Pabst of Riedell customer service, only the soft series skates and the very beginner skates are made overseas.

I didn't ask about traveling to the factory to have skates adjusted. Might be worth a query to their customer service department to get their view on that.