improving the lay in my layback

[jp1andOnly]

So coach and I have decided the layback is back in the program. Joy:frus: I can do them and we worked really have today at improving my free leg position so it doesnt look so horrible. Still not pretty but getting better. Now with the improved leg position I cant go back as far. I guess I was cheating by having my leg in a position that made it easier to go back.

1. Anyone care to walk me through how/what they think of when they go into the layback.

2. Stretches...help please. My low back is fairly flexible but the upper back not so much. I'm afraid I havent found many stretches for that. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place. Please help :)

You all will be showered with positive karma is you can make my layback actually go back to looking like it is supposed to :bow:

[katz in boots]

Hmm, I'm not expecting showers of good karma for these comments:

I was really struck by Sasha Cohen's laybacks, because her upper body was so laid back, but beccause of that, her free leg was really quite low. Compare that to skaters who don't get their body as far back, and have their leg higher. I don't know if you can have your cake & eat it too?

[kayskate]

You may try keeping your free leg extended straight and to the side/back. I find it much easier to lay back w my leg straight. I can also keep the leg higher and get a better back bend than if my leg is curved and straight behind. Also, I assume the pose immediately as I enter the spin. Let the force of the spin help you into position. From what I have observed in other skaters, those who try to position the leg before leaning have a slower, overall weaker layback. I am not necessarily talking about elites here. This is just what I have seen of intermediate skaters.

Flexibility:
Do you do yoga? A good yoga class will increase flexibility dramatically. You may also wish to discuss your goals of back flexibility w a yoga instructor, who can provide you w proper exercises. Personally, I have seen dramatic increases in my own flexibility w yoga.

Kay

[jp1andOnly]

Hi Kay,

I dont do Yoga in a class for I dont have time and there aren't any classes near me. I do however practice many of the poses and stretches they do on my own time. Like I said my low back is quite flexible, but I just cant get my upper/mid back to curve as well. In yoga, I can't find stretches for that (there is a lot of focus on the low back)

You may try keeping your free leg extended straight and to the side/back. I find it much easier to lay back w my leg straight. I can also keep the leg higher and get a better back bend than if my leg is curved and straight behind. Also, I assume the pose immediately as I enter the spin. Let the force of the spin help you into position. From what I have observed in other skaters, those who try to position the leg before leaning have a slower, overall weaker layback. I am not necessarily talking about elites here. This is just what I have seen of intermediate skaters.

Flexibility:
Do you do yoga? A good yoga class will increase flexibility dramatically. You may also wish to discuss your goals of back flexibility w a yoga instructor, who can provide you w proper exercises. Personally, I have seen dramatic increases in my own flexibility w yoga.

Kay

[dance2sk8]

Hmm, I'm not expecting showers of good karma for these comments:

I was really struck by Sasha Cohen's laybacks, because her upper body was so laid back, but beccause of that, her free leg was really quite low. Compare that to skaters who don't get their body as far back, and have their leg higher. I don't know if you can have your cake & eat it too?

I tried finding a photo of Sasha's layback. On some of her laybacks its intentional to have a low free leg. But this photo, its just amazing how gorgeous it is. If I could do this, I'd be thrilled! She has the most amazing turn out of any skater I have ever seen. Its incredible.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/events/200405/campbellsclassic/photos/cohen-layback.jpg

[RachelSk8er]

A lot of it comes not so much from arching your back, but from pushing your hips forward into the proper position. You want the hip of your skating leg to be slightly forward (more over your toes, see her skating leg above) and your free hip also needs to be somewhat square (rather than turned back). As you can see in the photo above, shes's turning her leg out, but her free hip is still forward a bit. (I have a nasty habit of pulling the hip back in an effort to get the leg in the right position). Once you get the leg/hip position down, you can then worry about laying back more. You need to have strong hip flexors and a strong core in order to accomplish this--I think those are more important than just sheer back flexibility.

There was a pretty good article in Skating Mag a few months ago (maybe the October issue?)

[dance2sk8]

You may try keeping your free leg extended straight and to the side/back. I find it much easier to lay back w my leg straight. I can also keep the leg higher and get a better back bend than if my leg is curved and straight behind. Also, I assume the pose immediately as I enter the spin. Let the force of the spin help you into position. From what I have observed in other skaters, those who try to position the leg before leaning have a slower, overall weaker layback. I am not necessarily talking about elites here. This is just what I have seen of intermediate skaters.

Flexibility:
Do you do yoga? A good yoga class will increase flexibility dramatically. You may also wish to discuss your goals of back flexibility w a yoga instructor, who can provide you w proper exercises. Personally, I have seen dramatic increases in my own flexibility w yoga.

Kay

My coach and I have been working on layback. She has told me to hold my leg (to the side, center the spin first) out after I enter the spin and then pull it back (from the hip), THEN lean back (push forward with the hips). Everything is in steps for newbies like me learning it. I tried doing it your way of immediately assuming the position. Not happening. LOL!

[rsk8d]

A lot of it comes not so much from arching your back, but from pushing your hips forward into the proper position. You want the hip of your skating leg to be slightly forward (more over your toes, see her skating leg above) and your free hip also needs to be somewhat square (rather than turned back). As you can see in the photo above, shes's turning her leg out, but her free hip is still forward a bit. (I have a nasty habit of pulling the hip back in an effort to get the leg in the right position). Once you get the leg/hip position down, you can then worry about laying back more. You need to have strong hip flexors and a strong core in order to accomplish this--I think those are more important than just sheer back flexibility.


I agree with the 'pushing the hips forward' comment. In order to lean back without falling backward, the hips need to come forward to balance the weight of the upper body and leg going behind you. Think of it as jutting your pelvis forward. The hip flexors need to be flexible, not strong, to accomplish the layback, as the hips need to extend. Tight hip flexors (psoas, rectus) would make it difficult for this to occur. Besides needing flexibility in your hip flexors, the hip external rotators need to be flexible to allow the hip to turn outwards. As for the back, it is difficult to gain flexibility into extension if you don't already have it. The extension motion is controlled by the actual amount of mobility in each vertebral joint, not so much the muscles. Joint motion should not be forced, as it will lead to injury. I have a written skill analysis specifically for laybacks that shows exactly where you need flexibility and strength to accomplish the spin. PM me with your email and I will send you one!

[kayskate]

Looking at the picture of Cohen, I notice a sideways tilt to her layback which is typical of most. Some skaters can do a true backbend. I had a coach who encouraged me for the true backbend. I had been doing laybacks for 10 yrs w the side tilt. I don't know which method you are using. IMO, the backbend is very difficult to achieve. IMO, it also is not necessary for a quality layback, as demonstrated by Cohen. Depending on what you are trying to achieve, you might explore the sideways leaning spin and side tilted layback w your coach.

As your coach about trying to achieve the position more quickly. These are my suggestions for the technique. The spin should be as fast as possible. Warm up w your fastest spins but leave your free leg straight and to the side-back. To get a super fast spin, you must approach w a deep skating knee and bring the free leg around as you hit the 3turn. The spin must hook. You should achieve the position w/in the first 2 rotations of the spin, 1 rotation is better. Just like a sit spin. The longer you take to get all of your body parts in line, the more speed you lose. Hit the hook, bring your skating arm onto your chest, leave the other outstretched and lean back and slightly to the side. The force of the spin will help to pull you back.

Some ppl will do the spin w hands on hips as an exercise. Push the hips out w the hands while you lean.

Good luck. A quality layback is definitely worth the investment.

Kay

[RachelSk8er]

Another thought with getting the leg to the proper position--my coach has had me focus more on turning into the leg, rather than "pulling the leg back". This seems to help keep the free hip in the right place. I still have issues with my leg position, but (prior to my injury) it was getting better. For the record, I really really hate doing laybacks.

[Isk8NYC]

I've found that beginners do better if they put the hands together from the start, rather than waiting until they are ready to push the hips out. It just helps them guide the spin better because it doesn't take as much strength to control the arms at that point.

Before they reach that step though, an strong attitude spin is vital. It's a layback without the extreme backbend, but it does call for the extended free leg and the forward push of the hips. I have the skaters stand on the spinning at the wall with both hands on it, then PUSH the bellybutton against the wall so they get the feeling for that balance position.

I love laybacks with high free leg positions. I keep the hip open at the start with a soft knee. That seems to help.

Off-ice exercises to strengthen the core really help, as rsk8d points out.
Crunches, back bends and scissors all make you stronger.

[Kat12]

I've seen a few who have both. I think I'd rather a better height on the leg than layback, if one must be sacrificed; a low leg to me looks like the skater is afraid s/he's going to fall so keeps the leg low in case s/he needs to "save" the spin. One of my rink buddies is working on her fear of falling backward on her layback, so her back is not bent too far, but her leg height and position is lovely.

Okay, here are some pics. Haven't a clue what these are, just found them on a Google Image Search for "layback spin."

Here's one with nice layback and not-bad leg:
http://www.dmfsc.com/images/Angela_Nikodinov_2%5B1%5D.jpg

Here's one of Sasha that I think is decent (though I agree some of her other ones are dismal):
http://www.sashacohen.com/photos/newpix2.gif

Don't know who this is but I think the leg is dismal:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/32/52519868_8205f580b3_m.jpg

Sarah Hughes, I think; this one is nice IMO:
http://www.dianesrink.com/sarah/emily/215/practice7.jpg

Not such a great one (random pic from ehow.com on doing a layback):
http://i.ehow.com/images/a04/gh/na/perform-layback-spin-figure-skating-200X200.jpg

I don't know who Fleur Maxwell is, but I don't like her leg position on her layback at all, if this is her final position:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Fleur_Maxwell_Spin_2004_Junior_Grand_Prix_Germany. jpg

And this one...no idea who this is as the page I found it on is in what looks like Japanese, but what fun (i found another page that says it's Caroline Zhang). I've never seen a catch-foot-type layback before...no clue how she gets back UP after this!
http://blog.roodo.com/randomspin/6562e3d2.jpg

[katz in boots]

I tried finding a photo of Sasha's layback. On some of her laybacks its intentional to have a low free leg. But this photo, its just amazing how gorgeous it is. If I could do this, I'd be thrilled! She has the most amazing turn out of any skater I have ever seen. Its incredible.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/events/200405/campbellsclassic/photos/cohen-layback.jpg

Yes, you're right, this is way higher free leg than the one I'm thinking of. Apologies!

[mdvask8r]

Another thought with getting the leg to the proper position--my coach has had me focus more on turning into the leg, rather than "pulling the leg back". This seems to help keep the free hip in the right place. I still have issues with my leg position, but (prior to my injury) it was getting better. For the record, I really really hate doing laybacks.
Are you saying turning into the skating leg? I think I know what you mean here, but maybe not . . . My coach emphasizes getting the free leg to the side/back position then leave the free leg there as you turn the entire skating side away from the free leg so the free leg ends up behind you. All while pressing the hips forward with skating hip leading as you described above in Post #6. I think we are saying the same thing, but "turning into the leg" has me confused.

[vesperholly]

Here's one with nice layback and not-bad leg:
http://www.dmfsc.com/images/Angela_Nikodinov_2%5B1%5D.jpg

Yay I took that pic! Boy, it's getting around since I released it to Wikipedia. :)

I think what you'll notice in a lot of these photos is that it really isn't so much upper back flexibility, but lower back. Ab work always helped me a lot in my layback.

[dance2sk8]

Here's one of Sasha that I think is decent (though I agree some of her other ones are dismal):
http://www.sashacohen.com/photos/newpix2.gif I LOVE HER! I guess I am overly biased due to the fact that I think she is the best skater ever to come onto the scene. :bow:

Don't know who this is but I think the leg is dismal:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/32/52519868_8205f580b3_m.jpg - Rachel Flatt??? :?:

Sarah Hughes, I think; this one is nice IMO:
http://www.dianesrink.com/sarah/emily/215/practice7.jpg

Not such a great one (random pic from ehow.com on doing a layback):
http://i.ehow.com/images/a04/gh/na/perform-layback-spin-figure-skating-200X200.jpg

I don't know who Fleur Maxwell is, but I don't like her leg position on her layback at all, if this is her final position:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Fleur_Maxwell_Spin_2004_Junior_Grand_Prix_Germany. jpg - *** This is intentionally done this way. There are several skaters that do a beautiful lay back and then straighten the leg into a variation lay back and finish their combination/variations spin. ***

And this one...no idea who this is as the page I found it on is in what looks like Japanese, but what fun (i found another page that says it's Caroline Zhang). I've never seen a catch-foot-type layback before...no clue how she gets back UP after this!
http://blog.roodo.com/randomspin/6562e3d2.jpg

I love the lay back spin. I know I won't have the best free leg, and I know with some skaters who are pros due to the lack of flexibility in their hip flexors or back that they create variations that are still acceptable and gain points. I know that's going to probably happen with me. I think some of the free leg straightening or bringing the free leg in can be gorgeous in some of the spins that I have seen these girls do.

NOTE: Comments in purple above on a couple of pics.

Youtube example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK34sdMTfFU - notice how her free leg is perfectly aligned and then intentionally brought in towards the end? Also, she has a gorgeous lay back variation that is similar in the Romeo and Juliet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh3iW4I39DI) program she did for the Olympics. (around time point of 2:39)

[dance2sk8]

Yes, you're right, this is way higher free leg than the one I'm thinking of. Apologies!

No worries. I love the lay back and hope to one day be able to do one without landing on my rear like I did on my first REAL attempt. I had it for 1 revolution with speed and down I went on my rump. It scared me. LOL!

[Isk8NYC]

*** This is intentionally done this way. There are several skaters that do a beautiful lay back and then straighten the leg into a variation lay back and finish their combination/variations spin. ***
I've seen skaters who can do a open-hip layback do this at the end of a spin combination. I wonder if that closed-hip free leg enables the skater to spin on the outside edge?

[dance2sk8]

I've seen skaters who can do a open-hip layback do this at the end of a spin combination. I wonder if that closed-hip free leg enables the skater to spin on the outside edge?

Hrmm, never thought about that. With that possibility, I also notice that they spin a tad faster as well when they adjust their free leg into that position.

I could watch lay backs all day! ;)

[techskater]

I've seen skaters who can do a open-hip layback do this at the end of a spin combination. I wonder if that closed-hip free leg enables the skater to spin on the outside edge?

I've only seen 2-3 skaters attempt the COE on the layback and they were all either JGP entrants or GP entrants. I can do a lot of change of edge spins, but this is one I don't even want to think about attempting (scares the poopie out of me).

The other thing is those pictures could be of the variation piece of the layback since dropping your foot and collapsing your arms into your body will generate increased speed.

I don't have a lot of upper body back flexibility, but I use my hips to create the position of the layback. They push forward and the more the push, the further back I go. I use the boards, a ballet bar at the gym, or a counter top to work on pushing my hips forward more to get a better layback. Not to be a braggart, but I like to think I have a pretty good one. ;)

[doubletoe]

I've only seen 2-3 skaters attempt the COE on the layback and they were all either JGP entrants or GP entrants.


Fumie Suguri does a change edge layback, but it's a reverse layback, CCW on the right foot (one of the only reverse laybacks I've ever seen). To be honest, it usually travels and isn't particularly attractive. . .

[techskater]

I think it was Oda that did a fwd COE layback and another Japanese Junior lady (Murakami?) at JGP Lake Placid. It looked pretty scary and neither were closed hippe

[doubletoe]

I think it was Oda that did a fwd COE layback and another Japanese Junior lady (Murakami?) at JGP Lake Placid. It looked pretty scary and neither were closed hippe

I don't believe I've seen Oda do one, but I know Takahashi does a layback and I think he tries to change edge on it. He always looks a little off balance when he does it. I really wish he would do a cross foot spin for his difficult upright variation instead!

[antmanb]

I don't believe I've seen Oda do one, but I know Takahashi does a layback and I think he tries to change edge on it. He always looks a little off balance when he does it. I really wish he would do a cross foot spin for his difficult upright variation instead!

Is a layback seen as a difficult variation of an upright spin for male skaters?

Ant

[Isk8NYC]

A good question is one I don't know the answer to - not sure about how men doing laybacks gets scored.

Rohene Ward has a gorgeous layback in both directions or forward/backspin - can't remember which. (He can spin in both directions really well.)

[techskater]

It's scored as a layback, assuming that's what it really is.

[dance2sk8]

I can't help it!!!! Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....lay backs. :D This one is stunning!

http://assets.usoc.org/assets/images/photo_gallery_image/image/12399/full/2004_-_01_-_08.jpg

[antmanb]

A good question is one I don't know the answer to - not sure about how men doing laybacks gets scored.

Rohene Ward has a gorgeous layback in both directions or forward/backspin - can't remember which. (He can spin in both directions really well.)

It's scored as a layback, assuming that's what it really is.

Logically if it is "just" (as in only in that position) a layback spin it would be, but my main query would be how would it fit into a spin combination, or a an upright spin that went round for a several revs intentionally then went into a layback?

I guess my real question is whether in a combination spin it would count as a feature for "difficult variation" to get higher levels.

As a not very flexible man I have never tried to learn a layback and my coach has never brought it up, but if it was worth the while learning it then maybe i'd ask my coach about it.

Ant

[dance2sk8]

Rohene Ward's layback. It is quite lovely. :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Rohene_Ward_Layback.jpg/250px-Rohene_Ward_Layback.jpg

[doubletoe]

Logically if it is "just" (as in only in that position) a layback spin it would be, but my main query would be how would it fit into a spin combination, or a an upright spin that went round for a several revs intentionally then went into a layback?

I guess my real question is whether in a combination spin it would count as a feature for "difficult variation" to get higher levels.

As a not very flexible man I have never tried to learn a layback and my coach has never brought it up, but if it was worth the while learning it then maybe i'd ask my coach about it.

Ant

When a standard layback (or sideways leaning version) is done as part of a combination spin, it just counts as an upright position, not a difficult variation. So unless you can do a haircutter, Biellmann or layback-to-sideways change of position, the only way to get a feature with a layback in a combination spin is to hold the layback for 8 revolutions (which would not get you a feature if done in a regular upright position). This is why I have not risked my spine trying to learn the layback. ;)

[techskater]

A level 1 layback is worth more than other spins as level 1 which makes it worthwhile!

[doubletoe]

A level 1 layback is worth more than other spins as level 1 which makes it worthwhile!

True, compared to upright, sit, etc.