toe-axel problem

[Verena]

Hi all,

I have a problem with my double toe jump and I was wondering if anybody could help. I started doing the double toe and gradually I started doing a toe axel. Although I had the two rotations and could land the jump, it was of course cheated. So I have started trying to relearn the jump in order to leave the ice from a strong toe jumping similtaneously from both feet - as my coach is indicating. However, the jump is getting worse and worse, and now I cannot even do the toe axel. The single toe is good, but as soon as I try to do the double teo everything falls apart. It's like I lost the rythm of the jump.

Please let me know if there are any methods to relearn the double toe correctly.

Thank you in advance.

[techskater]

Lots of single toe loops, three toe loops in a row in a straight line, toe-loop-loop combinations, and single toe-back spin drills have really helped my double toe (it's at the land/two foot inconsistent stage). I also have a pick drill given to me by one of my coaches but it's hard to describe. I've also done Axels and then double toes as a drill for timing. Have you tried a different entry?

[Verena]

Lots of single toe loops, three toe loops in a row in a straight line, toe-loop-loop combinations, and single toe-back spin drills have really helped my double toe (it's at the land/two foot inconsistent stage). I also have a pick drill given to me by one of my coaches but it's hard to describe. I've also done Axels and then double toes as a drill for timing. Have you tried a different entry?

Hi!

Thanks for the tips. I usually do toe loop backspin - I'll try to do a lot of the others you are indicating. i get into the toe loop from a LFI edge with a three turn (I rotate clockwise). My coach does not want me to try a different edge, e.g. the one with a mohawn and foot change. He thinks I should learn the double toe from a three turn..

[ibreakhearts66]

I used to toe-axel and I'm not going to lie, it was really, really difficult to fix. It was a very frustrating process and honestly, it probably didn't fully go away until I had taken a break from skating and came back to the sport. It was less ingrained in my muscle memory after a break.

I'd suggest working on mazurkas and on walk-throughs of the jump. Turn the 3, put your toe in the ice, draw your left foot through to meet your right then kick through and do a back spin. Repeat. And repeat and repeat.

I'd be wary about doing a bunch of single toes in a row simply because as you lose speed, you're going to be more likely to do a toe-waltz. But if you're able to be extra aware of what you're doing and can manage to continue to do technically correct toe loops as you lose speed, then it'll definitely help.

Another thing you can do is work on loops as if you were doing a toe loop. Turn the three turn and keep your free leg behind you as if you were going to do a toe loop but don't tap and do a loop instead. This helped me immensely for doing 2toes as the second part of a combo, as it made me more aware of where my weight needed to be.

It is definitely a difficult habit to break, but I now have a pretty nice 2toe if I may say so myself (here (http://www.youtube.com/user/ibreakhearts66#p/u/7/XUkhWBrw3uE)'s a video--I do a 2toe in the beginning then a few more early on) and can no longer do a toe-axel even if I try

[RachelSk8er]

How is the technique on your single? You may need to go back and fix technique on your single. If you're at the point where you're working on doubles, it most likely means your singles are strong, you find a single toe loop easy, you usually do it as the 2nd jump as a combo (rather than the first jump or on its own) and that's just a matter of sticking your toe in the ice and rotating without giving it much thought. So your technique on the single on its own may have gotten a little sloppy and may need some cleaning up. (This seems pretty common and the reason for a lot of toe axels--if you can't do a single with good technique, how will you ever do a double?)

My coach started tearing that apart before working on doubles. The day he said "let's start working on that double toe" I got so excited, only to find out but that he was going to spend a month ripping apart my single before he ever let me try more than one rotation. (What I do when he's not around is another thing :twisted:) The big thing is staying down and using the ice to help create rotation and not flinging into the jump, and then kicking through at the right time. He has me do a drill where I have my L toepick in the ice and I just pull in and turn (without taking off) and end up facing the same direction and repeat (hard to explain, it may be the same one Techskater is talking about). And rather than a bunch of toe loops in a row, he has me do three 3 turns and then jump with a focus on keeping the hips level (I tend to pop the free hip up). And toe loop backspins and toe loop-loops. I haven't tried one in a few months but before I screwed up my ankle they two-footed, but the takeoff wasn't cheated and they were fully rotated. I'll probably have a clean 2toe before I have a clean axel. Ugh. :frus:

[Kim to the Max]

I'll probably have a clean 2toe before I have a clean axel. Ugh. :frus:

I hear you on that one...my 2 toe is closer to being completely rotated and clean before I am able to do a clean axel.

It's funny this came up because my coach and I just worked on 2 toes on Tuesday. For me, I don't toe axel, but I pick too far behind me, so coach has me keep my left arm checked to prevent a toe axel but then to THINK about toe axeling so that I don't pick so far behind me which I won't do because my left shoulder is checked to prevent the prerotation.

Verena: I can't offer you any advice but to keep trying. Go back to your single and really drill that. Coach also has me to this EVIL drill where I am going backwards and have to just pick and jump. It's great for toepick positioning and arm positioning, it's just awkward as all get out.

Good luck!!

[techskater]

I'd be wary about doing a bunch of single toes in a row simply because as you lose speed, you're going to be more likely to do a toe-waltz. But if you're able to be extra aware of what you're doing and can manage to continue to do technically correct toe loops as you lose speed, then it'll definitely help.

Yes, the beauty of that exercise is picking correctly as you lose speed. If the ice isn't too full you can look at your markings on the ice and make sure it's right.

[rsk8d]

A toe axel occurs when you have too much weight on the toe pick foot instead of more weight on the other side. Try to feel yourself pushing off from your quadricep and knee on the takeoff side. The toe is basically there to assist you, not to bear a great deal of wieght.

[Verena]

Hi!

Thank you all so much for the advice.

ibreakhearts66: thanks for the tip where you say to bring the feet together and then kick through to do a back spin and the other where you say to keep the free foot back but do a loop instead of a toeloop. I didn't now these ones. I'll try them tomorrow.

RachelSk8er: my single toe loop is ok, but i seem to change everything when I try a double. The problem must be in part psychological: when I think that I'll try a double instead of a single I put more weight on the toe.. Of course as you say, the single toe loop has to be perfect consistently. For me too, the double toe was at the beginning easier than the axel. Yet, I really worked on the axel, whereas I neglected the double toe, and now the axel is becoming consistent whereas I have lost the double toe altogether.

Kim to the Max and rsk8d: I think you are talking about the exersice where you pick and jump but you do not rotate, right? I find this exercise ok, but because the rotation is missing, it does not really simulate the toeloop move. In the exercise you just go back and jump, whereas in the toeloop you have to go back and jump from the side (meaning jumping from both feet and leaving the ice at the point where your body has turned to the side)..

[rsk8d]

Hi!

Kim to the Max and rsk8d: I think you are talking about the exersice where you pick and jump but you do not rotate, right? I find this exercise ok, but because the rotation is missing, it does not really simulate the toeloop move. In the exercise you just go back and jump, whereas in the toeloop you have to go back and jump from the side (meaning jumping from both feet and leaving the ice at the point where your body has turned to the side)..

I meant that you want to feel that when you do the jump, not as an exercise :)

[Kim to the Max]

Kim to the Max and rsk8d: I think you are talking about the exersice where you pick and jump but you do not rotate, right? I find this exercise ok, but because the rotation is missing, it does not really simulate the toeloop move. In the exercise you just go back and jump, whereas in the toeloop you have to go back and jump from the side (meaning jumping from both feet and leaving the ice at the point where your body has turned to the side)..

With the exercise I do, you actually rotate a single toe, you just don't do any entrance. It forces you to really concentrate on the take off. Coach herself had to do doubles that way as an exercise.

[londonicechamp]

Hi Verena

I am really not an expert on this, and so cannot give you too much advice. The best bet if you are not sure is to ask your coach to show what you are doing wrong. Bad habits are really hard to kill. Until now, I still have bad habits such as not landing my free leg straight. I am kind of aware of this now, and try to correct this during my practice.

londonicechamp

[cherriee]

Thanks Verena for starting this thread as I'm really struggling to clean up my toe-waltz. :frus:

A toe axel occurs when you have too much weight on
the toe pick foot instead of more weight on the other side. Try to feel yourself pushing off from your quadricep and knee on the takeoff side. The toe is basically there to assist you, not to bear a great deal of wieght.

rsk8d: Putting too much weight on the toe pick foot sounds right on! I have three questions for you. :bow:

1. When you said pushing off from your quad and knee on the takeoff side, do you push off the takeoff toe pick or the takeoff blade?
2. Do both feet leave the ice at the same time?
3. My coach said my takeoff foot needs to glide pass my toe pick foot. I couldn't do it at all. Any tips on that?

[Skate@Delaware]

Thanks Verena for starting this thread as I'm really struggling to clean up my toe-waltz. :frus:



rsk8d: Putting too much weight on the toe pick foot sounds right on! I have three questions for you. :bow:

1. When you said pushing off from your quad and knee on the takeoff side, do you push off the takeoff toe pick or the takeoff blade?
2. Do both feet leave the ice at the same time?
3. My coach said my takeoff foot needs to glide pass my toe pick foot. I couldn't do it at all. Any tips on that?
ditto here, for #3....although it's better than it was, it could be MUCH better! Can't wait for more tips/help on this.

[techskater]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHG8EDODD18

This is a pretty nice example of a single toe loop because he bends and draws together and the skating foot passes his picking foot. He gets good bend on both the three and the pick.

[rsk8d]

1. Push through your quad and knee on the takeoff blade side. I like to tell my skaters that the toe pick is there to assist you. You want more of your weight on the takeoff blade side.

2. The takeoff blade leaves the ice first, and you use that leg to 'step-up' into the jump.

3. I like to think of the takeoff blade leg lifting up and through to the top of the jump. What has helped my skaters the most is concentrating on where their weight is centered on takeoff. Toe axels occur because a skater has too much weight on the takeoff toe-pick side.

[cherriee]

rsk8d: THANK YOU! Thanks techskater and everybody who wrote on this thread too. Many tips to try during the next practice.

[vesperholly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHG8EDODD18

This is a pretty nice example of a single toe loop because he bends and draws together and the skating foot passes his picking foot. He gets good bend on both the three and the pick.

Actually, his skating foot does not pass the picking foot, he bends his knee and draws it up, not through. He has good reach back and good height, though.

[vesperholly]

Found a really great double toe (from a LFO 3-turn entrance):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPnfVmI0Dlc&feature=channel

[sk8tmum]

There's a video of Kurt Browning explaining and demonstraing a 2T on this site. It's a Canadian production; you'll see demonstrations by other skaters of other techniques.

http://www.skatebuzz.com/Skating101.aspx