Spinning vs. Tops Analogy (Thread drift)

[Query]

Skate@Delaware:

Tops spin very easily. I'm not sure a skate designed purely to turn and spin would look quite like a top, because it might burrow its way into the ice, but I think you want a spinning skate fairly thin and with a small rocker diameter, to get closer to a top's shape. (The effectively lessened rocker diameter at the sweet spot makes it more top-like in that dimension. If you want to spin easier, sharpen to exagerate the sweet spot, or use a blade with smaller rocker diameter.)

Perhaps Sid Broadbent (from the http://iceskateology.com site you quoted) would disagree - he claims all the horizontal force that generates turns is generated on the inside (between the two edges) part of whatever edge you are skating on, so I guess a top's shape wouldn't work by his theory. I'm not sure if he has a theory of spins, except that he claims skaters cannot spin about a constant axis, because he claims the blade always generates such a horizontal force when you are on an edge. (See his "The spin is not a ‘spin'." Be prepared for college level physics.)

I'm no expert on hockey skates or hockey skating. But the hockey skates I have seen do not have a constant rocker. At each end it spirals up into greater and greater curvature (smaller and smaller rocker diameter). It is especially especially easy to turn (or spin) fast when you are skating on either area.

The hockey skates I have seen also have smaller rocker diameter in the center than most figure skates, so it is easier to turn (and spin). They are also thinner (and are usually sharpened with a correspondingly smaller hollow radius), which by the top-like theory makes it easier to turn and spin. They also dig in and stop faster than figure skating blades.

The way I see it, almost everything about figure skating blades is dedicated towards making it possible to jump off the toe pick, and for making it easy for the judges to tell if you don't use "proper" figure skating technique. The toe pick interferes with almost everything else - although if you ignore the directions of figure skating coaches and judges, and use the toe pick to push, it can help there. It would be hard to claim figure skating blades are well designed for general skating except perhaps jumps - which is perhaps why it is required that figure skaters use figure skating blades - if you used well designed blades, you would have an "unfair" advantage. (No doubt some people disagree.)

I don't know if everyone would agree that spinning on hockey blades is easy. Since there is no toe pick, and no tail, beginning hockey skaters get lots of practice falling forwards and backwards, as you well know. Plus, wearing hockey gear is an invitation for other hockey skaters to come and knock you over. :twisted:

[dbny]

The toe pick interferes with almost everything else - although if you ignore the directions of figure skating coaches and judges, and use the toe pick to push, it can help there.

I disagree. I think you get the most push by using as much of the blade against the ice as possible for the greatest distance possible (achieved by maximum extension). You can't do that and also use the toe pick. It's possible that you or I could get a better push with the toe pick because we do not have the skill to get the most out of a proper figure skating push. If you have ever watched a world class skater just step on the ice and take a few easy strokes, you would see right away that neither of us could generate that speed even with toe pushes. Technique trumps all.

[phoenix]

I disagree. I think you get the most push by using as much of the blade against the ice as possible for the greatest distance possible (achieved by maximum extension). You can't do that and also use the toe pick. It's possible that you or I could get a better push with the toe pick because we do not have the skill to get the most out of a proper figure skating push. If you have ever watched a world class skater just step on the ice and take a few easy strokes, you would see right away that neither of us could generate that speed even with toe pushes. Technique trumps all.

ITA!!! We spend years learning not to push w/ the toepicks & when we finally get it, suddenly there's a LOT more power and much better balance because toepicks pushes disturb the upper body alignment.

[Skittl1321]

ITA!!! We spend years learning not to push w/ the toepicks & when we finally get it, suddenly there's a LOT more power and much better balance because toepicks pushes disturb the upper body alignment.

Although I can't speak for Query, based on what he has said in the past, I believe he will come back to say that the upper body alignment is an unnecessary convention of figure skating that slows us down to begin with.

So could a toe-pushing, not worrying about the upper body skater beat a trained figure skater with excellent posture and edge pushes? Based on what I've seen of international level skaters, I don't think so at all. (Taking off from a T-position, single push and making it down the ice)

But- the only toe-pushers I see are pretty darn low level to begin with, so maybe the logic is flawed. If someone trained a 15 years toe pushing, would they have the speed/power of someone with 15 years training who is an edge pusher. Once again, I'm going to have to say I don't think so.

I think an edge push works better than a toe push because the edge pushes off the ice, where the toe must first crack the ice, sink into it, and then pull itself out of the ice- all that extra ice breaking seems like it would be using up some of the energy of the push.

[phoenix]

Actually it's more than that. It's because each time a toe pick digs into the ice, the motion of that foot stops for a split second, then starts again as it pushes off. By contrast, the blade that pushes, continues its momentum and increases it. Toe pushing stops and starts--slowing you down and using more energy than necessary to maintain momentum because you have to re-create what was lost.

Also, at the moment of the 'stop' the shoulders keep moving forward, resulting in broken posture & a readustment of balance on each step. Again using more energy than necessary and disturbing the efficiency and power of the motion.

[Skate@Delaware]

The most effective & efficient edge push comes from utilizing the width of the blade and transferring energy from the leg to the blade (never took physics, not sure what this is called) as the blade rolls it's inside edge into the ice (aka the "bite"). As for toe-pushing, you do waste a lot of energy, you don't transfer much from the leg-to the toe etc. Although I suppose theoretically it's possibly for a highly-trained athlete to glide farther than a rank beginner. (time/distance trials, anyone?)

As for blade width, Sid did mention on his site (somewhere) that he tried making a blade with ONE edge and it didn't work at all 8O; speed skaters skate on a blade that's relatively flat, don't they?

[phoenix]

speed skaters skate on a blade that's relatively flat, don't they?

yes, although the 'corners' are super sharp.

[RachelSk8er]

I don't know if everyone would agree that spinning on hockey blades is easy. Since there is no toe pick, and no tail, beginning hockey skaters get lots of practice falling forwards and backwards, as you well know. Plus, wearing hockey gear is an invitation for other hockey skaters to come and knock you over. :twisted:

I used to spin in my hockey skates when I would wear them to skate guard or when I was playing intramural hockey in college. I actually thought it was easy. I wasn't doing any hard positions or anything like that, it was mostly goofing off. I used to do dance patterns in them, too.

[Skate@Delaware]

Plus, wearing hockey gear is an invitation for other hockey skaters to come and knock you over. :twisted:
Actually, most hockey skaters I know are more than happy to throw THEMSELVES down on the ice, just for the sheer fun of it!!!! Having played hockey myself, I know that most don't try to run into you unless you are in their way. I played for 3 months before the guys realized that I was NOT a boy and I WAS wearing figure skates hahaha!

[fsk8r]

Although I can't speak for Query, based on what he has said in the past, I believe he will come back to say that the upper body alignment is an unnecessary convention of figure skating that slows us down to begin with.

So could a toe-pushing, not worrying about the upper body skater beat a trained figure skater with excellent posture and edge pushes? Based on what I've seen of international level skaters, I don't think so at all. (Taking off from a T-position, single push and making it down the ice)

But- the only toe-pushers I see are pretty darn low level to begin with, so maybe the logic is flawed. If someone trained a 15 years toe pushing, would they have the speed/power of someone with 15 years training who is an edge pusher. Once again, I'm going to have to say I don't think so.

I think an edge push works better than a toe push because the edge pushes off the ice, where the toe must first crack the ice, sink into it, and then pull itself out of the ice- all that extra ice breaking seems like it would be using up some of the energy of the push.

Taking the posture argument, at my rink on the public disco session they'll have a speed bit of it. It's for those in their own skates (no hire). As a low level free skater I went on it once and was able to out skate all those in their hockey skates with their poor posture (they aren't hockey skaters just recreational skaters). Back crossovers were the easiest as it did eliminate all potential for tripping over the toe pick, but beating them was mainly down to good posture and technique. I could probably beat them all going forwards these days and they'd be so annoyed because it was a girl in figure skates!

[londonicechamp]

Hi Skate@Delaware

Wow, it is cool that the hockey guys only found out after 3 months that you are in their hockey league, that you are a woman (girl).

(not related to this) but you should really go watch the movie I am a man, hahaha. :)

londonicechamp

[Skate@Delaware]

Hi Skate@Delaware

Wow, it is cool that the hockey guys only found out after 3 months that you are in their hockey league, that you are a woman (girl).

(not related to this) but you should really go watch the movie I am a man, hahaha. :)

londonicechamp
I would not have known that LOL!

I played goalie, and the pads covered my skates; Another time I did play defense and put my hockey stockings over the tops of my skates (which I had covered with black boot covers to protect them from stick damage). I am smaller than my teenage son so they thought I was a boy.

Hockey posture is bent over at the waist (for the most part). Watch any professional hockey game and pay attention to their posture (and the footwork-there are some outstanding skaters in the game). Everything they do is geared to puck play, fast moves, switching directions quicklly, etc. They even to mohawks to facilitate this.

[RachelSk8er]

Actually, most hockey skaters I know are more than happy to throw THEMSELVES down on the ice, just for the sheer fun of it!!!! Having played hockey myself, I know that most don't try to run into you unless you are in their way. I played for 3 months before the guys realized that I was NOT a boy and I WAS wearing figure skates hahaha!

You were allowed to play hockey in figure skates? When I played intramural in college, we had to wear hockey skates. They were pretty lenient on equipment though, the league only required a helmet, gloves, and shin pads, so that was all I wore. It was a beginner league and most people could hardly skate, let alone shoot a puck with any force, so I wasn't too worried about getting hit in the chest with a puck or checked or anything like that. Usually I was the one doing the damage to people in full equipment, it didn't take much to knock them down. I actually didn't like playing hockey, but it did make picking up roller derby all these years later easy!


I played goalie, and the pads covered my skates; Another time I did play defense and put my hockey stockings over the tops of my skates (which I had covered with black boot covers to protect them from stick damage). I am smaller than my teenage son so they thought I was a boy.

OK that would explain why you probably got away with the figure skates while playing goalie. They probably didn't even notice, and goalie skates are different from regular hockey skates (they're flatter and a little longer) so they probably didn't notice or care. It's easy to lean back too much on regular hockey skates and fall on your tailbone when you're just standing there in front of the net waiting for action.

[Skate@Delaware]

You were allowed to play hockey in figure skates? It was for drop-in and casual league, not a formal league...so yeah, I played in figure skates. I also helped with the LTS program and we sometimes stayed after for some stick play. Playing drop-in I wore all the other gear (all the pads, mouth guard, helmet, etc).

OK that would explain why you probably got away with the figure skates while playing goalie. They probably didn't even notice, and goalie skates are different from regular hockey skates (they're flatter and a little longer) so they probably didn't notice or care. It's easy to lean back too much on regular hockey skates and fall on your tailbone when you're just standing there in front of the net waiting for action.
No one noticed! It wasn't until one of the other guys told on me after I got checked that they realized. I wasn't looking for preferential treatment (I never got my payback tho).

[Query]

But the way I see it, almost anytime you impose a constraint, it reduces efficiency under some circumstances. The rules probably wouldn't be there unless it was sometimes advantageous to break them.

Speed skating and cross country skiing are very competitive sports too. I assume they have worked out techniques that are close to optimum. Those techniques don't look like figure skating.

From what I've seen, when good speed skaters start, they run on their toes, jumping after every push, then transition to rolling from the heel to the toe, still jumping. Those stages seems like they would be more efficient with toe picks. But once they get moving fast, they blend into skating mode, pushing sideways, and as they really get moving, they push diagonally sideways and forwards, so the skates never move backwards. According to a competitive ice/inline skater I took a lesson or two from, this applies to both ice and inline skates. He can go much faster than any figure skater I've seen, and he can go forever. It looks very efficient. The final stage is very similar to that of competitive cross country skate-skiers. (The final stage is only efficient if you have the strength and stamina to do it right - I don't.)

I admit I am not the fastest skater, and it is possible the most efficient way to move on figure skates doesn't use the toe pick. OTOH, speed skates and skate skis don't have toe picks, and a toe pick would slow down the final phase in which the skate is always moving forwards. So maybe I tend to use my toe picks because of flexibility constraints. I use them even when I don't realize it, like on backwards mohawks. (Aside: picture downhill skis with toe picks. Spectacular wipeouts! :))

The best speed skaters and cross country skiers definitely don't use an upright posture.

And look at the way speed skaters round turns. They lean over on deep cross-overs until the inside hand more or less brushes the ice. Figure skating judges wouldn't like that.

Many figure skaters think they move in the most efficient fashion possible, perhaps because they have selectively conditioned their bodies for those modes of motion. But if we assume other sports have encouraged people to do the same, figure skating techniques aren't truly optimized for speed and efficiency.

Of course, any form of dance, including figure skating, imposes constraints. Optimal speed and efficiency aren't really the point.

[londonicechamp]

Hi Query

What is OTOH? :o

I have seen an ice marshal in my home rink, jogging in his hockey skates. Seemed fun. :lol:

londonicechamp

[Skate@Delaware]

Hi Query

What is OTOH? :o

I have seen an ice marshal in my home rink, jogging in his hockey skates. Seemed fun. :lol:

londonicechamp
OTOH, on the other hand

I think maybe the equipment is efficient for the sport. Could it be more efficient, probably. Will it ever evolve, maybe.

If you watch speed skaters when they start, you will see that their skates are also at an angle, to obtain maximum blade-to-ice contact and they also roll in order to push off from the toe of that blade. Efficient! Could we do that? Yes. But it would ruin the aesthetics of what we intend. Our sport, I believe, trades some efficiency for beauty and aesthetics.

[phoenix]

Speed skaters don't run on their toes to start. They run on their blades, w/ the feet turned out at an angle. The blades are flat against the ice & don't do much gliding especially at the very beginning. If they have clap skates, then they are pushing through the ball of the foot as the heel raises up at the end of each stroke.

[LilJen]

Speed skaters also lean over for better air dynamics. Note that they have skin tight suits that cover their heads--least possible air resistance. Same goes for the posture. If you watch the olympics, you'll notice a lot of the skaters tucking over in the longer races especially (similar to what skiers do in the longer races where there's more gliding), to cut down on wind resistance. So the choice of posture in speed skating vs figure skating is for totally different reasons.

[phoenix]

The best speed skaters and cross country skiers definitely don't use an upright posture.


Nor do they do triple jumps, lifts, wicked edges, etc. Speed is not the only goal/priority of figure skaters.

[doubletoe]

OTOH, on the other hand

I think maybe the equipment is efficient for the sport. Could it be more efficient, probably. Will it ever evolve, maybe.

If you watch speed skaters when they start, you will see that their skates are also at an angle, to obtain maximum blade-to-ice contact and they also roll in order to push off from the toe of that blade. Efficient! Could we do that? Yes. But it would ruin the aesthetics of what we intend. Our sport, I believe, trades some efficiency for beauty and aesthetics.

That's what side-honed figure skating blades are for. You can lean on deeper inside and outside edges and the blade still cuts into the ice at the correct angle ("bite") because the blades are flared outward toward the bottom on both sides. A number of the high end figure skating blades are side honed, including the Wilson Gold Seal and the MK Gold Star.

[Query]

That's what side-honed figure skating blades are for. You can lean on deeper inside and outside edges and the blade still cuts into the ice at the correct angle ("bite") because the blades are flared outward toward the bottom on both sides.

Could you explain that a little more? How does flaring outwards improve bite angle?

I thought parabolic shapes, as with skis, were supposed to improve turning and spins (going back to the top analogy, though they usually place the thinnest part at the wrong point for that), at a cost in speed, but I might have that wrong.

AFAIK, the fastest figure skating blades, like MK Dance, are not parabolic, but are just thin. Am I wrong there too?

Now that I think of it, side honing is used on many figure skating blades, including my Ultima Dance, though it seems like that would reduce the attainable lean angles before slippage occurs. Of course if a figure skater leaned as deep as the best speed skaters, it wouldn't look right.

There are so many different preferences on figure skating blade shapes, with so many conflicting claims, that it is possible people sometimes just find a plausible explanation to justify what they bought, or what works for them. The physics are too poorly understood to model accurately.

[techskater]

I disagree with your assessment of parabolics - my spins are MUCH improved since getting parabolics with no sacrifice to speed.