Deep Thoughts - Skating Moves vs. Freestyle

[Pandora]

Have been lurking on [the Artistic Judging] thread. (Of course) ;)

Guess this is what irks me so much about ice..... The fact that superior "skating skills" (read that MITF) are rewarded in the sense that one has to take the MITF and pass it prior to taking the freestyle for that level, but one may keep taking these MITF tests up to and including senior level yet fall behind on freestyle and it's.......All ok. :D Still a great skater with excellent edges. Maybe no 2loop. But an excellent skater.:roll:

However.....
If someone wants to do the opposite.....Bad skater. Need to practice edges. Pass MITF. So he/she can do a few gymnastics. Big deal.

The synchro skater you are referring to seems to be the antithesis of myself and "my skaters." She has superior MITF and most likely has passed higher MITF tests (since she would be allowed to do so without taking the corresponding freestyle tests, unlike "my" skaters.) She is allowed to use her "best weapons" (MITF abilities) at all levels of competition, while we would be limited in which jumps we could preform. Everyone is excited about her and welcomes her with open arms claiming that trying to "keep up with her" will make everyone better skaters. While "my" skaters will, at best, be called sandbaggers. No one will belittle her for not preforming double jumps (if, indeed, she cannot), but if it was obvious that "my" skates had scratchy edges etc. I have the feeling there are some competitors who may make fun of them because they have the double jumps yet have scratchy edges......

Doesn't anyone see a type of double standard here? I understand you may agree with it. (The old: This is skating not jumping/spinning argument.) That's fine. But do you at least see it?


Mod Note: Tidal thread drift = New thread. Again. Must be a full moon.

[Stormy]

Pandora, I do see what you're trying to say. But in the case of going on with MITF and dance without keeping up with the corresponding FS, that's part of the great thing about skating. Even if you don't want to jump, or can't for whatever reason, there's still a Gold medal to work for. It's not necessarily that a skater "falls behind" on freestyle, but in the case of adult skating, there's only so far some of us can go. I'll never pass my Senior free, but Senior moves are an attainable goal. I know more than a few Gold ladies who are working on Senior moves or have passed them.

I guess I just don't see it as a double standard. I know you've had issues with the way the ice skating structure works, but that is the way it is.

[Pandora]

Guess it is only a double standard to the side it is working "against." You mentioned that it is one of the great things about skating (that you can test up without freestyle.) I see it as one of the worst, but that is because it goes "against" my side, to to speak. ;)

But thanks for acknowledging it. :D Seriously. So often I've mentioned something like this and other skaters are like: Nope. Don't see it. Have no clue what you're referring to. And I'm like: It's there. It's right there. I can understand agreeing with the system/defending it, but at least admit that this....circumstance.......exists.

In the end, though, have to agree with you. That is the way it is. :cry:

[doubletoe]

First, let me clarify that the freedom for skaters to pass higher level MIF without having to compete at a higher level is not a rule specifically designed for the adults. It was put in place for the standard track and they just didn't make an exception for the adult track (because there was no reason to).

I understand your point, Pandora. Logically, it makes sense. However, there are several good reasons why the USFSA would want to encourage skaters of all levels to spend more time working on MIF. While there are some adults who like MIF, I think that for most competitive skaters of ALL ages, the MIF are seen as a necessary evil--a series of tests you need to pass before you are allowed to take your freestyle tests. For this reason, it makes sense to offer the higher level MIF tests as an incentive to skaters who want to gain a competitive edge at their level (and this option is open to every skater at every level, so if the other skaters don't like being outskated, they can just work on higher level MIF, too).

It is also my understanding that the USFSA wants to encourage skaters to spend some time on edges and skating skills, not just jump, jump, jump. When figures were required--which was for most of the history of this sport--skaters spent 50% of their practice time on figures, which meant they had a lot less time to jump than skaters do now. There are already a lot more serious injuries now that skaters are free from figures and spend twice as much time jumping. Just imagine how many more knee, hip and back injuries there would be if skaters didn't have to spend some of their time on MIF.

We adults have the same issue. If you want to have more jumping years ahead of you, don't repeat my mistake of jumping jumping jumping just because you think you need to jump while you can. After throwing my back out practicing jumps too much (something I could always get away with until I hit 40), I now force myself to spend 25% of my practice time doing MIF. My physical therapist told me I had to start using the muscles on both sides of my body and start doing things in both directions, and MIF was exactly that. I have not had any problems since I added MIF back into my regimen and started limiting my jump repetitions, and I would strongly recommend this to all adult skaters (especially women aged 40 and over, since changing hormone levels make us more susceptible to back problems, among other things).

[coskater64]

ALL skaters take field moves tests they are required for ALL please explain once again WHY are you the exception to the rules that every single member of US figure skating follows?8O8O8O

[Skittl1321]

seriously? we're doing this again?

[Debbie S]

seriously? we're doing this again?My thought, too. :)

Here's my take on this: at the Gold level, it is not unusual to see skaters with high level MIF tests. A lot of Gold skaters skated as kids - some stopped and came back, some never stopped - but for whatever reason, they haven't reached the level of Masters (remember, to pass Int FS, you not only need the MIF test but at least one double and a flying spin (I think 5 revs?) ). It goes without saying that at the Gold level, you're going to find some kick@$$ skaters. If you choose to skate at Gold, you have to accept that. I don't consider anyone at Gold level with high MIF to be sandbagging.

Now, when you're talking about the lower levels, things get murky. There are plenty of skaters 'stuck' at Silver b/c they just can't get an axel, or at least a consistent one, so they don't move up. Does that mean they should be banned from testing higher levels of MIF? Or banned from competing if they pass those tests? Of course not. At Bronze and Pre-Bronze, generally most skaters are at the same level. I've noticed that most competitive skaters stay in Bronze for a couple of years and then move up to Silver when they pass the moves and/or collect some wins at Bronze. Yes, you do occasionally find former kid skaters at Bronze, and yeah, maybe they have an advantage, but that's part of competing. Someone will always have an advantage, whether it's better jumps, or better basic skating, etc. You deal with it and try to be happy with what you have done. I competed in Pre-Bronze once with a woman who obviously either skated as a kid, or reached a high level in dance tests - her hardest jump was a sal but she did a change-edge spread eagle that took up half the length of the ice and a very flexible Ina Bauer. And her stroking - power and ice coverage - was miles better than the others in the event. Was she sandbagging? Well, maybe, or maybe she was just testing the waters of adult FS comp, who knows. I've never seen her again, so maybe she decided FS wasn't for her.

But you can't make up rules based on one person's situation or one occurrence. If you're going to compete, you have to accept the rules and accept that not everything is going to go your way all the time.

[Pandora]

Nope. Not really the same thing again. Seems unfair that someone who is very gifted at MITF (like the ex synchro skater mentioned) is able to use all their MITF (even those off high level tests) at any level of competition. (For instance, a gifted MITF skater could, theoretically, do a Level 3 or 4 footwork sequence in Silver.) Whereas, someone gifted at freestyle is limited in the area of jumping (all the way up to masters), and on spinning (until gold).....Seems kind of lop sided, doesn't it?....Perhaps should ban all MITF over the prescribed level (like they do with jumps). No twizzles until masters senior. Brackets are on gold, right? So brackets are ok at gold, but not counters and rockers (even if skaters can do them.) Seems like that would be fair.....right? ;)

Also, still see a double standard in that those skates who cannot do jumps (axel and above) are defended because those jumps are "hard," whereas anyone who has trouble with that level MITF or above, (but can do the corresponding freestyle), is simply considered "lazy"....YET....Ice skaters seem to want to stress that the MITF are as difficult (and important) as the freestyle elements (especially the jumps), if not actually more difficult than the freestyle elements. Just don't see how you can have it both ways, that's all. If the MITF are actually as difficult as the freestyle elements, than, logically, those skates who find them difficult but can do the freestyle should be given the same "pass" as the skaters who cannot do the freestyle but can do high level moves. (No one calls them lazy?) Right?

Simply pointing out you (plural collective) cannot have it both ways.....;)

Don't worry coskater64, I will follow the rules (since I am not an exception). I have officially given up all hope of competing on ice. (Lexi informed me that I would need to find several more skaters in my predicament who would back me in order to have enough to form an event. Unfortunately, I could only find 4.). So I will have to stay on youtube. Maybe put up some routines on there. Pity. I know you were excited about possibly skating against me at Nats some day..... ;)

[sk8tegirl06]

Since we are at this again, I'm going to chime in. I am a new adult skater, though I skated a little when I was younger. (through Basic Skills, waltz jump, two foot spin, etc) Then stopped for about 4-5 years and came back when I started college and have tested up to preliminary moves and pre preliminary freestyle. I know the chances of me doing doubles is probably relatively low. I know the chances of me doing flying spins is probably relatively low.

MIF is something that is doable for everyone and the basis for everything in the sport. At least at these lower levels, the emphasis seems to be on edges and turns. Without solid 3 turns, jumps just don't happen. Without solid edges, landings don't just happen. Right now, my two works in progress on the freestyle side are loop jumps and camel spins. I know my entry edge into both of these moves needs work...also known as MIF. I know for me at least without MIF, footwork sequences would be darn near impossible. I can at least dream about maybe one day taking Senior Moves, Senior Free? :giveup:

There is a reason that the sport is called FIGURE Skating. The basis of the sport at that time was in...well...figures, not jumps, not spins, but quality edges, turns, and other patterns. I have followed your posts before and I am sorry you are not happy with the structure of the sport, but it is what it is. I'm not sure why you seem to be so afraid of taking any moves tests, for someone who comes across as very competitive it would be another goal to achieve.

[Pandora]

Just commenting on the fact that lop sided skills seem fine on ice as long as it is the MITF that overshadows the freestyle, not the other way around. That's all. :D

Like I said in the first post. Just wanted to point it out. I understand that many (most?) skaters will defend this. (Whole figure skating vs ice jumping thing.) But just wanted to point this out.

[sk8tegirl06]

Just commenting on the fact that lop sided skills seem fine on ice as long as it is the MITF that overshadows the freestyle, not the other way around. That's all. :D

Like I said in the first post. Just wanted to point it out. I understand that many (most?) skaters will defend this. (Whole figure skating vs ice jumping thing.) But just wanted to point this out.

What I think many of the posters are trying to point out, is that the MIF needs to be more advanced because it is the basis for elements of freestyle.

You really can't have one without the other. The whole chicken or egg argument, which came first?

I wish there was an answer for you, but it is what it is

[daisies]

How about this? Go actually work on the moves in the field and give those poor bold, italic and emoticon codes a little rest. They're working overtime and need a break.

[jazzpants]

seriously? we're doing this again? :roll: :roll: :roll:

I don't *get* how in the world you can get all those jumps and yet your MITF is really weak? There's just no way anyone can get those jumps w/o good edge foundation.

As for the competition, sorry to tell 'ya, but it is what it is!!! I mean... I don't like it just as much as the next person, but the fact is...it is what it is. I can either go and complain 'til I'm blue in the face, or I can just "shut up and skate" and work my butt off on those moves.

Besides, moves isn't so bad. I mean, it's certainly EASIER on my lower back!!! (Unless of course, I fall funny or somethin', then I'm in BIG trouble!!! 8O )

[Mrs Redboots]

It could be - used to be - worse. It used to be compulsory figures.

Seriously, no matter how good your jumps and spins are, as we have not tired of telling you, they will be infinitely better if you work on your basic skating.

I wonder if you realise that MITF is actually only basic skating, the sort of skills that every skater needs to work on every session if they are to make progress. I think you may not be aware of what is involved in the various tests.

[BlueSkate]

I don't understand why you can't just do footwork for a while to improve, you can't be that far behind if you are able to control your edges well enough to do double jumps. I came back to skating this year after 10 years away and I could do all the jumps I did before but my edges and even crossovers were fairly poor. I have worked hard on my basic skating and it has improved a huge amount in less than a year, the quality of my elements has greatly improved with better edges and I look a lot better on the ice.

I did my first competition recently and was only allowed up to a loop even though I have a very good flip and can land a lutz. I felt afterwards that I was between two categories because my basic skating and spins weren't good enough for the higher level but my jumps were a bit much for the lower level. After the competition I decided to work on the things that were missing for the next level and that is all I've been doing for the last couple of months.

I will probably miss the next competition because I have a lot to learn but I don't care, I'd rather look good on the ice and give a proper performance than do a few scratchy jumps and nothing else.

[Stormy]

Nope. Not really the same thing again. Seems unfair that someone who is very gifted at MITF (like the ex synchro skater mentioned) is able to use all their MITF (even those off high level tests) at any level of competition. (For instance, a gifted MITF skater could, theoretically, do a Level 3 or 4 footwork sequence in Silver.) Whereas, someone gifted at freestyle is limited in the area of jumping (all the way up to masters), and on spinning (until gold).....Seems kind of lop sided, doesn't it?....Perhaps should ban all MITF over the prescribed level (like they do with jumps). No twizzles until masters senior. Brackets are on gold, right? So brackets are ok at gold, but not counters and rockers (even if skaters can do them.) Seems like that would be fair.....right? ;)

Also, still see a double standard in that those skates who cannot do jumps (axel and above) are defended because those jumps are "hard," whereas anyone who has trouble with that level MITF or above, (but can do the corresponding freestyle), is simply considered "lazy"....YET....Ice skaters seem to want to stress that the MITF are as difficult (and important) as the freestyle elements (especially the jumps), if not actually more difficult than the freestyle elements. Just don't see how you can have it both ways, that's all. If the MITF are actually as difficult as the freestyle elements, than, logically, those skates who find them difficult but can do the freestyle should be given the same "pass" as the skaters who cannot do the freestyle but can do high level moves. (No one calls them lazy?) Right?

Simply pointing out you (plural collective) cannot have it both ways.....;)

Don't worry coskater64, I will follow the rules (since I am not an exception). I have officially given up all hope of competing on ice. (Lexi informed me that I would need to find several more skaters in my predicament who would back me in order to have enough to form an event. Unfortunately, I could only find 4.). So I will have to stay on youtube. Maybe put up some routines on there. Pity. I know you were excited about possibly skating against me at Nats some day..... ;)

How do you know this skater is very "gifted" at MIF? To achieve what she has in MIF and Dance takes a lot of hard work and practice. Clearly she is talented, but I'm pretty sure her accomplishments come from years of work and practice as opposed to simply being "gifted".

Absolutely no way should higher level MIF skaters be banned from using their skills in competitions. No way. That's only "fair" to you. It punishes everyone else who worked hard to get to their MIF level. Absolutely no way should everyone else be brought down. Many of my Gold competitors have a higher MIF than me. I only have Intermediate. It's my problem I'm at a lower level than they are, not the other way around.

Where, and who, is saying that people without a higher MIF level are "lazy"? I don't consider myself lazy. Perhaps you're interpreting it this way because you want to compete under our system, but not play by our rules because they don't suite your purposes or you just plain don't want to.

You were a roller skater, right? How would you like it if I as an ice skater came in to roller skating and demanded that I should be able to compete at a high level without taking any of your tests? To just be able to enter because I want to and I feel I should be able to. It wouldn't be cool if it was the other way around, and it's not cool when you as a roller skater turned ice skater do it to our system.

I am curious as to the other 4 in your "predicament". Other roller turned ice skaters? Do none of them want to take the MIF tests either? I just don't see why you refused to even consider the idea of taking any MIF tests or practicing them. Truly, it will make your skating better. You're a good jumper and spinner....I'd love to have a back camel like yours. The tests wouldn't be extremely difficult for you, so I don't see you're you're so obstinate about this. We all had to take them since we wanted to compete. If you want to, that's just what you'd have to do too. None of us were special enough to get out of it. You're not either, just because your skating situation puts you in a tiny minority of people dosen't mean you get any preferential treatment. That includes making a whole new level just for you. If you were willing to work with the system, that would be one thing. But you just believe that you are the exception and everyone needs to work around you. It dosen't work like that.....in figure skating, or in "real life".

[Mel On Ice]

Pandora - I've seen you argue, brag and boast on I don't know how many boards, and I don't see why you don't get it. Figure skating is about more than just the jumps.

If someone competed with jumps with nothing else, judges would not reward that because it's not a well-rounded program. And if that's all someone did was jump, the skater better be sure those jumps are textbook, displaying right technique in takeoff and landings. That means jumping off an edge instead of a flat, no wrap, no pre-rotation or cheated landings.

What is it exactly that you want from ice skating anyway? There are avenues within the sport for those who have strengths in one area over another to claim a gold medal if they want one (spins, jumps, MIF, compulsory, interp events), but if you think USFSA should restructure their competition structure in order to reward your jumping prowess, I wholeheartedly disagree, be it standard or adult track. A champion knows how to successfully master ALL aspects of the sport, from moves to spins to jumps to artistic expression.

As for some sort of double standard, I disagree as well. I do believe novice through senior synchro skaters, in order to be competitive, have to demonstrate and compete with a mastery of synchro and MIF elements, but also strong singles skating elements such as spins and jumps which are called "highlight" moves.

Watching Olympic caliber ice dancers, they too have to demonstrate dance and freestyle elements. Those dance spins? Modified pairs spins. There's freestyle elements hidden in all that edgework too.

There's so much to learn and explore in figure skating, to concentrate soley on one aspect would cripple and stagnate the sport. IIRC from one of Christine Brennan's books, a judge commented on the sport that for the men's long program, which is 4 1/2 minutes long, the man spends only about 10 seconds in the air. And they'd better do something spectacular with the rest of that time. I agree.

[phoenix]

What you may not realize is that if a skater went out & did ONLY footwork, with no jumps, they would not win. You seem to think the judging is completely slanted towards MIF, and it isn't. The key term here is "Well Balanced Program."

What you also may not realize, is that, even if the MIF *elements* were limited, the skater with the higher/more polished skating skills would still be very, very obvious. Don't believe me? Watch Yuka Sato do nothing but basic stroking/edges sometime. Or Katya Gordeeva. There is a quality there that shines through anything they do.

Also ITA w/ the poster who said that MIF really is basic skating. It does have difficult elements, yes, but mainly the thing adults struggle with is the power required at the higher levels, not so much the elements themselves. MIF is not rocket science.

[Pandora]

Never said anyone who works hard at MITF or dance or.....anything....was "lazy." I was just using "reverse logic" since I have often been accused of "laziness" because I choose to spend several hours straight falling (hard) on a jumps rather than dedicate that time to something like MITF. If that makes me lazy, then so be it. :D

As for roller. We would not exclude you because on roller there are no tests. (At least when I competed. Heard they may be slowly phasing it in now, but it is not really enforced.) Actually, I'd have no problem with you comming into roller and competing against me. (Not just because I can skate on roller, but because that it my mindset. Let everyone in. I have no problem with that. The more the merrier.) ;)

Also, if a skater could not land doubles on roller, they eventually "gravitated" to dance. (There is a solo freedance event that allows single jumps and 2 small spins. It is very popular.) Back when I skated there wasn't even A and B catagories. Generally, it went by age. By the time the skaters hit Freshman (usually early teens), they either had doubles, went to dance, got beaten (constantly), or quit. Now there is a "beginner" catagory. (Think it is A). Personally, don't even see why this exists since there is solo dance. But there you have it. If you want to buy a pair of artistic inlines (and are over age 13), then you will skate World Class which means "senior." That's it. No beginner. You would skate against me. (If I could find a rink and practice that is.) All of us at WC have doubles. The winner has a heel camel. Again, there is no beginner event. Beginner skaters are allowed to enter (if they want to), but they will be badly beaten.
However ......THEY ARE ALLOWED TO ENTER IF THEY WANT TO. (That's the point!)

Sorry, I like my italics, my bolds, and my faces. Love the faces (emotes).:D

Yes, you can have great jumps without good MITF.....Bonaly.

I'm very sorry, but it is unfair that the only elements that are restricted are the jumps. (It may "work" for most adults who find jumping.....difficult...but it is unfair since you don't limit the spins and MITF.) Can't you see that, by doing so you are singling out one aspect of the sport and discriminating against it. (Picking on the jumpers, so to speak.) Yes, skating is about more than jumping.....but jumps ARE an important part of skating (like it or not) and should not be unfairly limited while other aspects are not.

P.S. Like I said, I gave up all thoughts of competing on ice. Will continue to be general pain by posting on youtube, attending adult camps etc. just to point out that there is something very wrong with the system. (Which I have a right to do. It is America, after all.) ;)

[stacyf419]

Just keep posting your not very good jumps on youtube and feel good about yourself - why keep posting here?

[Pandora]

Well....The insults for one. Do so love insults. :D

And....Anyone who actually views this thread and bothers to think about what I wrote can see I have logical points (even if they disagree.) Like I wrote, this is America. Sorry. ;)

[stacyf419]

How about this? Go actually work on the moves in the field and give those poor bold, italic and emoticon codes a little rest. They're working overtime and need a break.

PML! Too funny...

[stacyf419]

Well....The insults for one. Do so love insults. :D

And....Anyone who actually views this thread and bothers to think about what I wrote can see I have logical points (even if they disagree.) Like I wrote, this is America. Sorry. ;)

You also appear to love beating a horse that has been dead for about a month. But whatever floats your boat! ;)

[sk8tegirl06]

Yes, you can have great jumps without good MITF.....Bonaly.

I'm very sorry, but it is unfair that the only elements that are restricted are the jumps. (It may "work" for most adults who find jumping.....difficult...but it is unfair since you don't limit the spins and MITF.) Can't you see that, by doing so you are singling out one aspect of the sport and discriminating against it. (Picking on the jumpers, so to speak.) Yes, skating is about more than jumping.....but jumps ARE an important part of skating (like it or not) and should not be unfairly limited while other aspects are not.


Yea, Bonaly was a great jumper, much more of an athlete than an artist. But she obviously had decent enough MIF to get to the World scene. I don't know how the standard track works, but even in the standard competitive test track, jumps and spins are limited to those on the respective test. (Read: kids) I think you are just going to have to agree to disagree with the posters on this board, and stop posting about how awful you have it because you "can't" compete. We can't understand how jumpers are singled out because without the basics 99.999% of skaters simply do not have the skills necessary to jump. While you can't understand how these basic skills are necessary. 99.999% of the general population does not find joy in throwing themselves in the air and hoping they land in one piece.

Seriously though, the first MIF test, pre-pre or pre-bronze is pretty much an encouragement test. If you wanted to you could probably pass it tomorrow. Most of us are sucked into this crazy sport because of the challenge and the desire to improve. Most of us don't only work on the elements we are good at.

One of my and my coach's goals before my next competition is to improve speed and power. So for the last five minutes of each lesson, I have to do laps/crossovers usually with a time goal. Last time, it was two laps in under 55 seconds, I think. Well, I did it in 51 seconds, which for me was a huge improvement. Do I like the power development skills she makes me do? NO Do I look forward to those last five minutes? NO Do I do each one to the best of my ability? YES, because I know these will make me a better skater.

[Pandora]

Actually, it's a different horse. (Limiting MITF by level since the jumps and, to a point the spins, are limited by test level.) Some of the other posters tried to make it the same horse. But in reality it is a horse of a different color. ;)

[jp1andOnly]

you say roller there are no tests...is it an olympic sport?

I love jumping..didnt as a kid and I spend countless hours zamboniing the ice as I learn harder jumps. In Canada there is no "MITF" test that you must pass before you freeskate. In order to pass a level freeskate, there are elements you must do (a few stroking exercies, spins, jumps, field moves like a spiral) before or after you do the program portion of your test. I will say that even if you pass the test with the requirements chances are you get your butt kicked in competition because people have better skills and often better jumps then just the test. These days I am working on dance and trying to spend a few moments a session doing my footwork.

Honestly, I'm not very good with the inbetween stuff, but even as I practice basic swing rolls, 3 turns ,etc I know my skating improves becaue I'm more steady then I was before (and I actually do have a legit reason why I seem unsteady other then lack of practice) and I'm getting more down in my knees which is improving my jump quality.

Take 15 min each sessions and work on some simple inbetween stuff and you will see your jumps improve....especially the flow before and after.

Never said anyone who works hard at MITF or dance or.....anything....was "lazy." I was just using "reverse logic" since I have often been accused of "laziness" because I choose to spend several hours straight falling (hard) on a jumps rather than dedicate that time to something like MITF. If that makes me lazy, then so be it. :D

As for roller. We would not exclude you because on roller there are no tests. (At least when I competed. Heard they may be slowly phasing it in now, but it is not really enforced.) Actually, I'd have no problem with you comming into roller and competing against me. (Not just because I can skate on roller, but because that it my mindset. Let everyone in. I have no problem with that. The more the merrier.) ;)

Also, if a skater could not land doubles on roller, they eventually "gravitated" to dance. (There is a solo freedance event that allows single jumps and 2 small spins. It is very popular.) Back when I skated there wasn't even A and B catagories. Generally, it went by age. By the time the skaters hit Freshman (usually early teens), they either had doubles, went to dance, got beaten (constantly), or quit. Now there is a "beginner" catagory. (Think it is A). Personally, don't even see why this exists since there is solo dance. But there you have it. If you want to buy a pair of artistic inlines (and are over age 13), then you will skate World Class which means "senior." That's it. No beginner. You would skate against me. (If I could find a rink and practice that is.) All of us at WC have doubles. The winner has a heel camel. Again, there is no beginner event. Beginner skaters are allowed to enter (if they want to), but they will be badly beaten.
However ......THEY ARE ALLOWED TO ENTER IF THEY WANT TO. (That's the point!)

Sorry, I like my italics, my bolds, and my faces. Love the faces (emotes).:D

Yes, you can have great jumps without good MITF.....Bonaly.

I'm very sorry, but it is unfair that the only elements that are restricted are the jumps. (It may "work" for most adults who find jumping.....difficult...but it is unfair since you don't limit the spins and MITF.) Can't you see that, by doing so you are singling out one aspect of the sport and discriminating against it. (Picking on the jumpers, so to speak.) Yes, skating is about more than jumping.....but jumps ARE an important part of skating (like it or not) and should not be unfairly limited while other aspects are not.

P.S. Like I said, I gave up all thoughts of competing on ice. Will continue to be general pain by posting on youtube, attending adult camps etc. just to point out that there is something very wrong with the system. (Which I have a right to do. It is America, after all.) ;)

[Debbie S]

What you may not realize is that if a skater went out & did ONLY footwork, with no jumps, they would not win. You seem to think the judging is completely slanted towards MIF, and it isn't. The key term here is "Well Balanced Program."Exactly. I'm a test-level Bronze skater with no flip, lutz, or camel. When I competed, I finished last - with much lesser jump and spin content, I knew going in that I'd place behind the other ladies unless one of them fell or made some other big mistake. I stopped competing b/c I got tired of finishing last. It wasn't really the placement (b/c you could do the same jumps as everybody else and still finish last) but the fact the I was so non-competitive. I wanted to at least have competitive content if I was going to compete. My choice.

My point is that in FS comp, it is the jumps and spins that matter the most - basic skating can distinguish skaters doing the same jumps and spins (particularly in Bronze where there are no multi-rev jumps or flying spins, so most performances are clean) and the skaters that place high are the ones with strong basics in addition to the jumps and spins, but in most cases, strong basics and footwork aren't going to make up for lack of harder FS elements. Which makes sense, b/c it's FS.

So, no, MIF is not the be-all and end-all, but you do need to pass the tests the compete at particular levels. Which is how it should be, for reasons that others have mentioned.

[Pandora]

No, roller is not an Olympic sport. They have worlds and several international competitions, but not Olympics. It is much bigger in South America and Asia and Eurpoe (Italy), than it is here (US).

Can understand what you mean by being beaten by skaters with higher level MITF. That's why I don't understand why they don't limit this like they do the freestyle elements. Yes, I understand that the high level moves skater will have better basic stroking but why not limit their abiltiy to do difficult turns/spirals etc. the way they limit the freestyle moves (especally the jumps.) Seems fair. Why allow a 15 second spread eagle when you won't allow a 2flip? (And no. Not everyone can do a spread eagle. Need open hips. It is just as impossible for some of us as a 2flip is for other skaters.) :frus:

So, lets put this into a competition prespective. She can use this move and be rewarded for it. A good jumper could counter with the points from a 2lutz (which is their speciality) but wait....they can't because their speciality is not allowed since it is "unfair" to the other competitors. But her speciality (the spread eagle) isn't considered unfair and is allowed....Same for her level 3/4 footwork or spiral sequence.:roll:

You really don't see a problem here?

[Pandora]

Debbie,
On roller thay have Solo Freedance. It is very cool. Only 3 single jumps and 2small spins (3revs or less) allowed. It is more of a footwork event. The routine doesn't even have to follow a pattern around the rink. I think the footwork event in ISI is like this. Do they have anything like this in USFS?

[techskater]

Yes, you can have great jumps without good MITF.....Bonaly.


And what World/Olympic Gold medal did Bonaly ever win? Heck, what Olympic MEDAL did she win? She LOST her one chance at a World Gold to someone with less jumping prowess (Yuka) because her basic skating was awful in comparison. Her posture was awful, she had NO concept of edge comparatively. Of a 4:10 program, a lady spends about 45 seconds in the air. If her basic skating and transitions in between that 45 seconds in the air is slouchy, on flats, and crappy (that would be 205 seconds) and her spins suck, why would ANYONE want to watch that? Part of the allure of figure skating (on ice) is the BEAUTY of the sport and the softness, grace, and ease of edge of the top ladies.

Same goes for Adults - so someone at Silver can land a great Axel but they have step overs, travelly spins, and no edging and transitions between elements - how is he/she going to place?

FWIW, I am a Gold level skater. Many people on this board know me personally and can vouch for the following: I find it easier to do nice spins and to get my butt in the air and rotate Axels and double jumps than I do skating beautiful, passing standard MIF and gorgeous, awesome transitions in my programs. I struggled to pass my Intermediate MIF. I am struggling with a couple of the Novice MIF which have precluded me from passing this test yet BUT I know that if I continue to work on them incrementally every day I skate, even 5-10 minutes to warm up before I move on to elements and program work, they're going to come and I WILL pass this test.

I competed less than a month ago and several people gave feedback to my coach and myself that the program looks much stronger in between my elements than they have historically and that it is nice to see and the program transitions and skating skills have really progressed.

[Kristin]

If you want to have more jumping years ahead of you, don't repeat my mistake of jumping jumping jumping just because you think you need to jump while you can. After throwing my back out practicing jumps too much (something I could always get away with until I hit 40), I now force myself to spend 25% of my practice time doing MIF. My physical therapist told me I had to start using the muscles on both sides of my body and start doing things in both directions, and MIF was exactly that. I have not had any problems since I added MIF back into my regimen and started limiting my jump repetitions, and I would strongly recommend this to all adult skaters (especially women aged 40 and over, since changing hormone levels make us more susceptible to back problems, among other things).

WORD. This is the best advice for adults I have ever seen. :bow:

[Kristin]

Many people on this board know me personally and can vouch for the following: I find it easier to do nice spins and to get my butt in the air and rotate Axels and double jumps than I do skating beautiful, passing standard MIF and gorgeous, awesome transitions in my programs. I struggled to pass my Intermediate MIF. I am struggling with a couple of the Novice MIF which have precluded me from passing this test yet BUT I know that if I continue to work on them incrementally every day I skate, even 5-10 minutes to warm up before I move on to elements and program work, they're going to come and I WILL pass this test.

I competed less than a month ago and several people gave feedback to my coach and myself that the program looks much stronger in between my elements than they have historically and that it is nice to see and the program transitions and skating skills have really progressed.

I can vouch for Techskater. I have known her for 9 yrs now and she hates MITF!!! But she does them. She also has not had a major injury in a long time. :)

[Pandora]

Actually, Bonaly had some pretty impressive spins including a Beilmann. Also camel-butterfly-sit etc. :bow:

What does it matter that she didn't win gold? She won French Nationals tons of times and got to the Olympics at least twice. Now she is a show skater. It's not always about the gold. She was the only woman at the time to do the backflip and is still one of the few people who can land it on one leg (and do it into a 3sal.) I'd take that over an Olympic gold anyday. :D

There are ways to work a program to cover certain defects. Don't always need MITF to do that for you. Can't do this on a test (of course). But in a program, yes, it can be done. Obviously can not jump through an entire routine. Would be nice, though....;)

Serious Question: If some of you hate MITF so much and this (skating) is your hobby, why do you spend time doing something you hate? (Because it is worth it to compete?) I mean, I hate them so much that I am giving up competing so I don't have to spend time on them. This is my hobby. I have enough to do going to a job I hate and other things in my life that I force myself to do. My hobby needs to be fun or .....what's the point?

[Kristin]

That's why I don't understand why they don't limit this like they do the freestyle elements. Yes, I understand that the high level moves skater will have better basic stroking but why not limit their abiltiy to do difficult turns/spirals etc. the way they limit the freestyle moves (especally the jumps.) Seems fair. Why allow a 15 second spread eagle when you won't allow a 2flip? (And no. Not everyone can do a spread eagle. Need open hips. It is just as impossible for some of us as a 2flip is for other skaters.) :frus:

So, lets put this into a competition prespective. She can use this move and be rewarded for it. A good jumper could counter with the points from a 2lutz (which is their speciality) but wait....they can't because their speciality is not allowed since it is "unfair" to the other competitors. But her speciality (the spread eagle) isn't considered unfair and is allowed....Same for her level 3/4 footwork or spiral sequence.:roll:

You really don't see a problem here?

Spread eagles & Bauers aren't on MITF tests and can be done at any level.

MITF is required for EVERY skating discipline, including synchro. It is rare, but once in a while you find a competition event for MITF and that's where the levels in MITF matter.

Also, level 3/4 footwork/spirals don't matter if the person skates it like crap. In the lower levels (pre-pre/prelim/prejuv) it is still the "6.0" judging system so level 3/4 doesn't matter anyway since they aren't judging based on points.

[Kristin]

Serious Question: If some of you hate MITF so much and this (skating) is your hobby, why do you spend time doing something you hate? (Because it is worth it to compete?) I mean, I hate them so much that I am giving up competing so I don't have to spend time on them. This is my hobby. I have enough to do going to a job I hate and other things in my life that I force myself to do. My hobby needs to be fun or .....what's the point?

There are a lot of things I do in life that I hate. I hate the fact that I can't eat whatever I want all the time & have to eat healthy or else I will get my asthma back. I hate that I have to go to a job everyday. I hate that I have to clean my turtle's tank. But fundamentally I do these things so that I can have a good life overall (and my turtle thanks me & is a happy pet).

So I continue to do things in my life because they really are good for me and when I reap the rewards, it makes it worthwhile. This is self-discipline and it builds character. :)

[Kristin]

Debbie,
On roller thay have Solo Freedance. It is very cool. Only 3 single jumps and 2small spins (3revs or less) allowed. It is more of a footwork event. The routine doesn't even have to follow a pattern around the rink. I think the footwork event in ISI is like this. Do they have anything like this in USFS?

They have freedance in USFSA but no jumps are allowed. It is part of the ice dance discipline.

There is always interpretive events which allow you to do single jumps. But the choreography (jumps included) must fit the theme you are trying to portray. I have seen some people use jumps to help interpret their theme & win. I have also seen one guy go out and skate the entire program on one foot, with no jumps, and win (he was doing a "figures" interp to the music from "Mission Impossible").

[Mel On Ice]

Serious Question: If some of you hate MITF so much and this (skating) is your hobby, why do you spend time doing something you hate? (Because it is worth it to compete?) I mean, I hate them so much that I am giving up competing so I don't have to spend time on them. This is my hobby. I have enough to do going to a job I hate and other things in my life that I force myself to do. My hobby needs to be fun or .....what's the point?

A very good question! Because MIF are a means to an end. I want to be a better freestyle skater and way back when, a better synchro skater. Practicing routines over and over is worthless without a strong base built on that practice in learning decent basic skating, and that is what MIF helps you do.

I only started climbing in the standings when I started working on my field moves. I don't think it is a coincindence that I won my freestyle event at Buckeye the same weekend that I passed my silver MIF.

[phoenix]

No adult skater is going to get level 4 footwork; practically no world-class elite skater can do it!

Can any adult get level 3? Has anyone ever gotten it? I doubt it.

Spirals I think may be possible.

[Pandora]

But this is a hobby. That means, theoretically, that it is for "fun." I do force myself to do the "necessary evils" (work, pay bills etc.), but force myself to do a hobby....um...no thanks.....;)

[Mel On Ice]

then why waste your time railing against the system?

[Pandora]

He skated the whole thing on one foot???!! OMG!!!8O

[Kristin]

But this is a hobby. That means, theoretically, that it is for "fun." I do force myself to do the "necessary evils" (work, pay bills etc.), but force myself to do a hobby....um...no thanks.....;)

Then why are you so worried about FS vs. FM's etc. Do you ever plan on competing? I thought you mentioned a while back that you get really bad stage fright. If you never plan on competing/performing, then this whole MITF/FS discussion is a moot point. :giveup:

[Kristin]

He skated the whole thing on one foot???!! OMG!!!8O

Yes, and he won. It was a very well-crafted program.

[phoenix]

But this is a hobby. That means, theoretically, that it is for "fun." I do force myself to do the "necessary evils" (work, pay bills etc.), but force myself to do a hobby....um...no thanks.....;)

Yes, you're right--if you're strictly out there to have fun, then by all means, you should only do what you want to and don't bother with what you don't enjoy. But by doing that, you limit yourself, as you already know. It is what it is.

I want to be a better overall skater. I do dance, not really FS, but I also do moves--and I'm not required to! But I do them because they really do fix weaknesses & imbalances and I see the value of them. I'm a competitive person, and for me, even though skating is a hobby, it's also something I'm trying to excel at, and it's my nature to want to work hard to achieve that.

There have been certain dances that I hated, and really struggled with, but I did them because that was the price I had to pay in order to be able to move up to a higher level.

[techskater]

That gold medal mattered to Bonaly - go look at her silver medal refusal on youtube! She often complained to the media that she was unfairly held back and that she should have won an Olympic medal. Look at Midori Ito - she put out the hardest technical programs at the 1988 Olympics and finished off the podium due to her poor figures!

You cannot construct a skating program to mask poor or out of balance basic skating technique - too much basic skating is required based on the amount of time on the ice during a program versus in the air. A good program is constructed to play to a skater's strengths. For example, I am open hipped and my programs always contain a bauer and a spread eagle as transition elements. These do NOT gain any points under IJS or the 6.0 system, but they look good when done well and help develop the story of the program - which adds to the TR, CH, and IN marks under IJS. I know doubletoe is another skater who often has these as transition elements in the program because they work well for her and look nice in her programs.

I noticed and interesting phenomenon with scores under IJS at Adult Nationals. At the Gold level, many skaters who got credit for Axels and/or double jumps got slightly higher PCS marks than those that got under rotation calls on the Axel or got no credit for any jump above Lutz. This is like the 3/3 phenomenon at the World level (if a lady skater does a ratified 3/3, she gets higher PCS) or the quad phenomenon (a man landing a quad gets higher PCS).

Spread eagles and bauers are no where to be found in the test structure as only people with certain body construction can do them and USFS understood that when the MIF structure was created.

What MIF limits are we talking about? Are you talking about measuring depth of edge? How would you do that? What's your objective measure or limitations? Spirals are all over the MIF test structure, so you can't really limit those. I mean, should I complain that because I can't do a 180 degree split in my spiral that no one else at my level should be allowed to either? No, I work within my limitations and do spirals slightly above hip level and work on my flexibility to try and get it just a little better.

PS - no adult skater, even one with Gold (8th) figures and MIF (Senior) has gotten a L3 or 4 step sequence (versus spiral sequence).

[Pandora]

Because the sport is fun (without the MITF, of course). ;) When I started out, I wanted to be part of it. Still irks me that I can't be. But we are at an impasse. So I am irked. Will continue to be irked. :frus:

No, not competing. Kind of wanted to again just to prove to myself I could.....but that is a separate issue. Only making observation. (Kind of think the whole set up over here on ice is kind of.......messed up....) So just observing. Entitled to opinion.

[Kristin]

Yes, you're right--if you're strictly out there to have fun, then by all means, you should only do what you want to and don't bother with what you don't enjoy. But by doing that, you limit yourself, as you already know. It is what it is.

I want to be a better overall skater. I do dance, not really FS, but I also do moves--and I'm not required to! But I do them because they really do fix weaknesses & imbalances and I see the value of them. I'm a competitive person, and for me, even though skating is a hobby, it's also something I'm trying to excel at, and it's my nature to want to work hard to achieve that.

There have been certain dances that I hated, and really struggled with, but I did them because that was the price I had to pay in order to be able to move up to a higher level.

Just like school. :) I hated taking all these classes that weren't relevant to my degree (like philosophy, history, etc.) but took them anyway because I wanted to get my Engineering degree. What a surprise it was in my Senior year to find a history class that I actually LOVED, and still talk about today, 13 yrs after I graduated college!

Coincidentally, working on & passing tests in MITF, FS, and Dance gave me a lot of confidence that has carried over into my daily life as well. Heck, if I could have taken a few figures tests, I would have added that to my many disciplines as well! I take a lot of pride in the skating tests I have passed because when I started there were so many people who looked at my like I was just some other stupid adult out there trying to skate. They changed their opinion of m when I started passing tests (like the Pre-Juv moves) on the first try, while their kids had to retry them. I kept telling myself that despite opposition, I was going to do it to prove that it could be done. It was a challenge, and I love a good challenge. :) The challenge in this sport is what makes it fun. If it was easy, I wouldn't do it.

[jp1andOnly]

umm..actually in Canada they have ;)

That gold medal mattered to Bonaly - go look at her silver medal refusal on youtube! She often complained to the media that she was unfairly held back and that she should have won an Olympic medal. Look at Midori Ito - she put out the hardest technical programs at the 1988 Olympics and finished off the podium due to her poor figures!

You cannot construct a skating program to mask poor or out of balance basic skating technique - too much basic skating is required based on the amount of time on the ice during a program versus in the air. A good program is constructed to play to a skater's strengths. For example, I am open hipped and my programs always contain a bauer and a spread eagle as transition elements. These do NOT gain any points under IJS or the 6.0 system, but they look good when done well and help develop the story of the program - which adds to the TR, CH, and IN marks under IJS. I know doubletoe is another skater who often has these as transition elements in the program because they work well for her and look nice in her programs.

I noticed and interesting phenomenon with scores under IJS at Adult Nationals. At the Gold level, many skaters who got credit for Axels and/or double jumps got slightly higher PCS marks than those that got under rotation calls on the Axel or got no credit for any jump above Lutz. This is like the 3/3 phenomenon at the World level (if a lady skater does a ratified 3/3, she gets higher PCS) or the quad phenomenon (a man landing a quad gets higher PCS).

Spread eagles and bauers are no where to be found in the test structure as only people with certain body construction can do them and USFS understood that when the MIF structure was created.

What MIF limits are we talking about? Are you talking about measuring depth of edge? How would you do that? What's your objective measure or limitations? Spirals are all over the MIF test structure, so you can't really limit those. I mean, should I complain that because I can't do a 180 degree split in my spiral that no one else at my level should be allowed to either? No, I work within my limitations and do spirals slightly above hip level and work on my flexibility to try and get it just a little better.

PS - no adult skater, even one with Gold (8th) figures and MIF (Senior) has gotten a L3 or 4 step sequence (versus spiral sequence).

[Pandora]

Guess that the only fair way to limit MITF to level would be to prohibit all elements above that test level. (eg. no counters/rockers until they show up on the tests. Brackets are on gold, right? So no brackets until gold or higher.) Not sure what to do with spirals except maybe only arabesque spirals allowed and no change of edge until senior. Just trying to make it "fair" like they do with the jumps.

Sorry, guess that may be the difference right there. I want my hobby to be fun. That is why it is a hobby. If I have to force myself to do it, then it is work. Whole different catagory. Have enough of that. Need hobby, not more work. ;) Jumps/spins are not work for me...but MITF is. Honestly, if it came down to skating MITF/Dance or not skating at all, I would definitely quit. It just doesn't appeal to me.

[Stormy]

Because the sport is fun (without the MITF, of course). ;) When I started out, I wanted to be part of it. Still irks me that I can't be. But we are at an impasse. So I am irked. Will continue to be irked. :frus:

No, not competing. Kind of wanted to again just to prove to myself I could.....but that is a separate issue. Only making observation. (Kind of think the whole set up over here on ice is kind of.......messed up....) So just observing. Entitled to opinion.

You are wrong. You can be a part of it, you just chose not to be. You're entitled to your opinion, but really, what you want will not happen. I can't say strongly enough that it is completely unfair to limit MIF elements in programs. It's only fair to you because you won't work on them. Tell me, why should the rest of the skating world be penalized for their hard work because you don't like MIF and won't do them? How is that fair?

[Mel On Ice]

Pandora, I understand your sentiment. For the longest time, the anxiety over competing and the poor results conspired against me, and I contemplated quitting because it was no longer fun. But I didn't, and I can't exactly say why, except that the rewards to me to keep on working on my skills were worth it. And the friends I have made in the sport. And being able to say that I have competed nationally in the sport I love. And being able to do the things I am able to do at the age of 40, when I could be sitting at home or - God forbid - bored out of my mind in a step aerobics class.

[techskater]

Because MIF are a means to an end. I want to be a better freestyle skater and way back when, a better synchro skater. Practicing routines over and over is worthless without a strong base built on that practice in learning decent basic skating, and that is what MIF helps you do.

I only started climbing in the standings when I started working on my field moves. I don't think it is a coincindence that I won my freestyle event at Buckeye the same weekend that I passed my silver MIF.

Very good points and all I am in complete agreement with. I started to improve in the standings with the same elements as before when I started actively and consistently working on the Novice MITF. This test develops anaerobic strength, bi-lateral quickness and evenness and control as the patterns are a lot harder than the previous tests (ask my Silver level training partner who passed Intermediate not too long ago and is just in awe of doing these at all.)

A saying we have in manufacturing is: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is madness. Just skating programs without working on the basics and expecting to beat your competitors is an example of this.

I hate MITF. They frustrate me totally, but I want to skate. I want to be a better skater than I was and not muddle around doing the same thing as before. To this end, I work on MITF for 10-15 minutes minimum per session (if I am preparing to test them, it may be a whole hour). This leads to better looking programs and nicer elements. I get more satisfaction from the improvement than I have hatred of MIF.

FWIW the attached is a program that I could watch all day and yet it has limited FS elements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4oB2_GR7Fs

[Pandora]

Back to the different color horse....

So to sum it up. Generally, ice skaters to believe in limiting jumps (especially in the Adult Competitive Tract) in order to make competition "fair" for the competitors. To a lesser extent, they also apply this to spins. (eg. no flying spins until Gold), but will allow any MITF at any level. So....If an adult is flexible enough to do Beilmann spirals (and, yes, I know there are probably a few out there who have them), then they could get points for them since there is no restriction on spirals or on MITF. Same goes for high level step sequences if, indeed, an adult could do them. (Jp1andonly suggsted it had been achieved in Canada.) But it does not work this way with jumps. Must stay within the test level limitation (to be "fair") until masters level.

Ok...if this is what you want....:roll: Just pointing out the discrepancy.

[Kristin]

I want to be a better skater than I was and not muddle around doing the same thing as before.


QUOTED FOR TRUTH. I whole-heartedly agree. Even in my hobbies, I like to add additional skill sets so I can grow and never be bored.

[Debbie S]

I take a lot of pride in the skating tests I have passed because when I started there were so many people who looked at my like I was just some other stupid adult out there trying to skate. They changed their opinion of m when I started passing tests (like the Pre-Juv moves) on the first try, while their kids had to retry them. I know you wrote this innocently, but I don't think it's right to call any adult who skates "stupid". Or suggest that to be taken seriously, you need to pass your tests the first time you try. I get very nervous when I test, and it took me 3 tries to pass Bronze MIF and 4 tries to pass Silver MIF, yet I still take pride in passing them. I guess your experience has been different than mine; I have received much support from skating parents and other adult skaters when I've passed my tests (and also when I didn't). Sure, there are beyotchy people (both parents and skaters) but thankfully, they are few, and I don't worry about what they think of me.

[Kristin]

.If an adult is flexible enough to do Beilmann spirals (and, yes, I know there are probably a few out there who have them), then they could get points for them since there is no restriction on spirals or on MITF. Same goes for high level step sequences if, indeed, an adult could do them. (Jp1andonly suggsted it had been achieved in Canada.) But it does not work this way with jumps. Must stay within the test level limitation (to be "fair") until masters level.

To reiterate, Adult comps are under the 6.0 system until Gold.

AND flying spins are allowed in Silver.

They have to have levels, period.

This discussion about jumps vs MITF has been going on so long that you are starting to look like a troll on these forums. I am beginning to wonder if you actually believe what you say or if you are just looking to pick a fight.

[Pandora]

Checked out link. Um.....Not my cup of tea, but not commenting any further. Not brave enough. ;)

[Pandora]

Am I allowed to disagree with you? Or does that make me a troll?

Also, I am not beating the same horse. I just mentioned that since you limit jumps per test level, I believe that this should also be applied to spins and MITF. Competetly different topic.

[Kristin]

I know you wrote this innocently, but I don't think it's right to call any adult who skates "stupid". Or suggest that to be taken seriously, you need to pass your tests the first time you try. I get very nervous when I test, and it took me 3 tries to pass Bronze MIF and 4 tries to pass Silver MIF, yet I still take pride in passing them. I guess your experience has been different than mine; I have received much support from skating parents and other adult skaters when I've passed my tests (and also when I didn't). Sure, there are beyotchy people (both parents and skaters) but thankfully, they are few, and I don't worry about what they think of me.

That was literally how I was perceived when I started with my club 10 yrs ago. I was already 26 yrs old, and I got a lot of rude treatment from other parents in the club who basically ridiculed me behind my back and wondered out loud whether adults should even be skating.

I am an adult skater, just like you! And I didn't like being treated that way either. It really pushed me to do my best to show that we adults really are worthy of respect in this sport. Thank God by the time I left that club (had to move due to job change), I had many friends and wonderful people I now call as friends. My day to day work on the ice showed them that adult skaters work every bit as hard as their kids do. :)

[Kristin]

Am I allowed to disagree with you? Or does that make me a troll?

Also, I am not beating the same horse. I just mentioned that since you limit jumps per test level, I believe that this should also be applied to spins and MITF. Competetly different topic.

Discussions/different opinions are welcome. Constantly beating a dead horse is not.

Also, it would help your argument if you actually knew the elements on the MITF tests. I would highly recommend that you actually purchase a USFSA rulebook so you can understand what is actually on the MITF tests. Not knowing the fact that a spread eagle is nowhere in the MITF test structure does not lend any credibility to your arguments.

[Pandora]

Ok. But that does not negate my point that all level MITF are allowd at any level of competition. (Also, to a point, this applies to spins, though at low levels they are regulated.) You are pointing out a flaw in a few trees and ignoring the forest. You understand my point, so address my agrument.

[BlueSkate]

I think Pandora is getting confused about what MIF are and the elements within them. I think she means that since jumps are limited in competitions, why aren't spins or footwork. I don't know the US system, but brackets, counters and rockers are quite high up within our test structure - I think brackets come first and they're around the same level MIF as double jumps would be in elements.

If that's what she's saying, then I agree to an extent. Fair enough if a skater *can* do more difficult footwork or spins, but should they be allowed to do steps and spins several levels above the permitted jumps?

[Pandora]

Yes, thank you BlueSkate. That is exactly what I am saying.:D:D:D

[techskater]

If that's what she's saying, then I agree to an extent. Fair enough if a skater *can* do more difficult footwork or spins, but should they be allowed to do steps and spins several levels above the permitted jumps?

The question is more - what's the quality of that difficult turn? You might see some difficult turns in Bronze (like brackets or rockers) but how good are they? Are the fast and flowing like you might see out of the winner of the Masters ladies event or are they from a stand still and kind of flat or out of control? I know many Bronze and Silver skater who are trying more difficult turns in their programs to get comfortable with them. These turns are no where near as smooth as their three turns and mohawks. Same for more difficult spins - I know a Silver who has a great flying camel but only when it comes to visit, it's not consistent.

[RachelSk8er]

I think Pandora is getting confused about what MIF are and the elements within them. I think she means that since jumps are limited in competitions, why aren't spins or footwork. I don't know the US system, but brackets, counters and rockers are quite high up within our test structure - I think brackets come first and they're around the same level MIF as double jumps would be in elements.

If that's what she's saying, then I agree to an extent. Fair enough if a skater *can* do more difficult footwork or spins, but should they be allowed to do steps and spins several levels above the permitted jumps?

That won't solve anything. Tell someone like me (working on junior MIF, pre-gold dances and in silver freestyle b/c I suck at spinning and don't have an axel) that I can't do rockers, counters, loops and twizzles in my footwork? Fine, I'll do 3-turns and mohawks, but I'll still do them with more speed and edge quality than someone who only has their silver moves test.

So then what's next? Someone like you is going to come along and say "gee :lol::roll::roll::lol: now it's not fair :cry::o8O:lol: that people can skate fast, so at certain levels what do you all think about limiting the amount of speed people can skate at? :lol::roll:8O:)?" And we'll be beating another dead horse.


Pandora, maybe if you spent the amount of time whining about what a lousy skater you are on actually WORKING ON YOUR MOVES, you would improve. Or if you don't like the fact that figure skating takes work, stick with roller skating. You seem to think roller skating has it all figured out and it's perfect. But then why in the US is artistic roller skating basically a dead sport? Where I live we have hundreds of figure skaters who compete in local, regional and national competition. Yet there are only a handfull of roller rinks, 1 artisitc roller skating club with like 5 competitive roller skaters. You basically just have to show up to be able to skate at nationals because there are so few people.

[techskater]

So then what's next? Someone like you is going to come along and say "gee :lol::roll::roll::lol: now it's not fair :cry::o8O:lol: that people can skate fast, so at certain levels what do you all think about limiting the amount of speed people can skate at? :lol::roll:8O:)?

Hey! We can use a radar gun and there can be a standard deviation of skating speed at each level! :halo:

[Pandora]

Well....the quality argument can also be applied to jumps. As a poster so kindly pointed out, my 2flip may be "no so very good" but, were I to compete at a level under master's, I could not even include this (badly done) double since it is prohibited. Yes, the turns may lack quality, but they are allowed. That is the difference.

[Pandora]

Actually roller skating takes a little work, too. Try falling out of doubles and triple attempts on a slab of concrete or wood for, oh say, an hour or two at at time. We also do combos that last from 5-7 jumps. Ice skaters do, what? Three? :lol: So maybe...just maybe...both types of skating take some work.;)

Actually a lot of the problem with roller is that there is no one with money supporting it. Lots of money in ice. (Ritter was from upstate NY.) Also, Americans like to catagorize. Roller is for "derby queens" (get me a beer). Ice is for those "fancy skaters." Same with soccer. Americans are proud to have their football. Soccer is for those "other countries." Recently, soccer is starting to get more popular in the US,but it took a long time and a lot of work. Still nowhere near the popularity of American Football.

[Kristin]

The question is more - what's the quality of that difficult turn? You might see some difficult turns in Bronze (like brackets or rockers) but how good are they? Are the fast and flowing like you might see out of the winner of the Masters ladies event or are they from a stand still and kind of flat or out of control? I know many Bronze and Silver skater who are trying more difficult turns in their programs to get comfortable with them. These turns are no where near as smooth as their three turns and mohawks. Same for more difficult spins - I know a Silver who has a great flying camel but only when it comes to visit, it's not consistent.

I have to agree with Techskater above.

You see plenty of triple axels on the world competitive scene, but very few step sequences getting called a level 4. Allowing a skater to progress in the MITF higher than their FS level has actually helped the overall look of skaters' programs. Figure skating started with figures. Classic skaters who have gone through figures test structure had amazing mastery on ice, and many of them did not need to do a jump in order for people to take notice.

[Kristin]

That won't solve anything. Tell someone like me (working on junior MIF, pre-gold dances and in silver freestyle b/c I suck at spinning and don't have an axel) that I can't do rockers, counters, loops and twizzles in my footwork? Fine, I'll do 3-turns and mohawks, but I'll still do them with more speed and edge quality than someone who only has their silver moves test.


Exactly. :)

[techskater]

The footwork difficulty doesn't mean sh!t without the jump and spin elements to be competitive at a level, as Debbie S mentioned earlier in this thread. If you don't have at least a Lutz-loop in Silver with good flow between the jumps and in and out of the combo, even if you do what would be a L3 footwork sequence, you aren't going to be in the top group of Silvers at class 2 or 3. Once you have the competitive quality of jump and spin elements at a level, then the skating skills and transitions come into play. Also, I mentioned the TES-PCS phenomenon at Adult Nationals for Gold Ladies (SS and related PCS marks were higher for skaters getting clean Axel calls with GOE of 0 or higher).

[Stormy]

Well....the quality argument can also be applied to jumps. As a poster so kindly pointed out, my 2flip may be "no so very good" but, were I to compete at a level under master's, I could not even include this (badly done) double since it is prohibited. Yes, the turns may lack quality, but they are allowed. That is the difference.

A double flip IS permitted in Masters Junior/Senior. I agree, you do need a USFS rulebook.

[Skittl1321]

Guess that the only fair way to limit MITF to level would be to prohibit all elements above that test level. (eg. no counters/rockers until they show up on the tests. Brackets are on gold, right? So no brackets until gold or higher.) Not sure what to do with spirals except maybe only arabesque spirals allowed and no change of edge until senior. Just trying to make it "fair" like they do with the jumps.

You seem to think that jumps are limited to only what is on the test- that's not true at all. For example, I'm working on my Bronze test- I need 3 single jumps and a waltz-toe combination. But you can do any single jump in competition. MOST Bronze skaters entering the level won't have flip/lutz yet, but they'll have to compete against people with them, and they'll have to compete against much harder combinations than waltz-toe.

And there is a difference between a bracket in a program, and the "brackets in the field" move. I can do a bracket just fine. But to do all 8, on pattern. No way. An isolated element is NOT a move in the field. My one bracket shows no mastery.

[Pandora]

When I wrote this I ment in the levels under the level of Masters Junior/Senior. That is to say in Pre Bronze, Bronze, Silver, or Gold. It was easier to write it that way.

Exactly, that is my point. You can disguise your routine to compensate. Yes, a quick judge may notice the bracket is only on the right side while the 3 turn is on both sides but.....I mean, really......If the rest of the sequence is good. Come on, now.

[Kristin]

A double flip IS permitted in Masters Junior/Senior. I agree, you do need a USFS rulebook.

Pandora, if you would take the time to learn about the USFSA test/comp structure, then you would be able to argue your points more effectively. Not knowing the facts does not help your arguments. The books are not expensive, USFSA comes out with new editions every year, and every adult competitor I know owns one. :giveup:

[RachelSk8er]

Well....the quality argument can also be applied to jumps. As a poster so kindly pointed out, my 2flip may be "no so very good" but, were I to compete at a level under master's, I could not even include this (badly done) double since it is prohibited. Yes, the turns may lack quality, but they are allowed. That is the difference.

Judging in figure skating awards you for what you do and do WELL. This is true under IJS--a really crappy double flip (if it even has enough rotation to not get downgraded to a single) will get you negative GOEs whereas a nice single will work in your favor and earn you positive GOEs. So unless the jump is good, it's usually not worth doing it.

Some argue that 6.0 gives you credit for what you try, but I think some of the IJS mentality is trickling down. I'll use silver for an example--a lot of people attempt axels in their program when it's clear by watching their technique (both on warm-up and in the program) they clearly do not have a consistent axel. (You can tell when someone has a handle on the jump and is just having a bad day versus someone who does not have the jump and is just flinging themselves in the air with bad technique). Skaters who don't attempt axels because they know they won't land them but skate a clean, strong program will almost always win over someone who throws away a jump on an axel they will never land, or one that is landed but is severely cheated. Two local judges here regularly judge adults and I've spoken with them numerous times on what they want to see or not see at various levels, and they have both told me that they don't want to see jumps that a person has no shot at doing well over jumps they can do. They're also in favor of strong step sequences over spiral sequences in 6.0 where there is an option (a spiral sequence for someone with flexibility is easy, but good step sequences are a better indicator of skating ability and edge control).

[Skittl1321]

Pandora, if you would take the time to learn about the USFSA test/comp structure, then you would be able to argue your points more effectively. Not knowing the facts does not help your arguments. The books are not expensive, USFSA comes out with new editions every year, and every adult competitor I know owns one. :giveup:

And they are available as free pdfs on the website now.

[Pandora]

Actually, I do know quite a bit about it and have actually had a book. (Believe it or not.) Re-read the post above. I knew it was allowed only in masters level and wrote it that way. It was (deliberately) taken in another sense to attack me. (Since it could be misread, if someone wanted to use it in that sense.) Re-read it and you will see what I mean.

In the future I will be more careful.

[Mel On Ice]

Well....the quality argument can also be applied to jumps. As a poster so kindly pointed out, my 2flip may be "no so very good" but, were I to compete at a level under master's, I could not even include this (badly done) double since it is prohibited. Yes, the turns may lack quality, but they are allowed. That is the difference.

I don't think there's any jump restrictions at the masters level. If Larry Holiday can do a couple triples under masters, I think the double flip would be allowed.

[doubletoe]

Can understand what you mean by being beaten by skaters with higher level MITF. That's why I don't understand why they don't limit this like they do the freestyle elements. Yes, I understand that the high level moves skater will have better basic stroking but why not limit their abiltiy to do difficult turns/spirals etc. the way they limit the freestyle moves (especally the jumps.) Seems fair. Why allow a 15 second spread eagle when you won't allow a 2flip? (And no. Not everyone can do a spread eagle. Need open hips. It is just as impossible for some of us as a 2flip is for other skaters.) :frus:

That's why a spread eagle has no point value in the technical score. Neither does stroking. Jumps, on the other hand, do. BTW, it appears that you are just out to prove that the system is messed up rather than trying to understand why it is the way it is. I gave you some pretty good reasons why higher level MIF are allowed and you appear to have ignored those explanations completely.

[Pandora]

As I mentioned, I know this. What I wrote was (deliberately?) taken out of context. (Since it could be misinterpreted.) Obviously, I know this. Read my other posts where I mentioned I would not be able to use my jumps UNTIL masters level. (I have 2flip). Must be careful on this board. Not liked. Will have to be much more careful and precise with my words.

[RachelSk8er]

I don't think there's any jump restrictions at the masters level. If Larry Holiday can do a couple triples under masters, I think the double flip would be allowed.

Not in jr/sr but now that int/novice is its own level, you can't do more than a 2loop there.

[coskater64]

Damn! I'm late to the entire thread!!

In IJS you have depending on the level, lets use gold as the example 6 jumps, 3 spins and 1 footwork or spiral sequence. Since jumps are capped and only 2/1 or 1/2 combo is allowed the highest jump combo would be lutz/2toe, and a good seq (x.8) axel-toe tap-2toe or axel-1/2 loop-2sow. So there is a pretty tight limit on the six jumps but if you get GOE of 0-+1,+2 you can add a lot to your score on those limited jumps, but...ohhhh me, ohhhh my that means you have to have good jumps with difficult entires (rocker, counters, brackets) into the jumps and a solid flowing outside edge out preferably into one of those nasty move things...again!

A few skaters do get the L4 on the spiral and, oh yes Daisies did manage a L2 or was it an L3 at AN's, but that is in combination with doing jumps that can be done well. If you do a telegraped 2 loop with a scatchy, hail marry landing its gonna be a negative and since the jump is only worth 1.5, you might end up with a 1.2 if your lucky. Its all in the balance of your program, if you want to do a jump filled program do it!! When you lose 30% of the technical score in negative GOE don't start another thread about how you were persecuted and "embarassed" about it.

I find it horrifying that I can't bowl as well as I should, why doesn't everything come naturally to me? What is this concept of learning to do something better through practice and hard work? I play chop sticks beautifully on the piano, why can't I play Chopin as well, would I have to practice!! NO WAY!!

You mean I should have just been able to walk into the nuclear plant and know how to run it? I shouldn't have gone to years of school to become a nuclear engineer? When did this entire, learning thing come into play? I am so upset, I must go join the NBA and tell them that I am TALL so therefore I am a basket ball prodigy!!

WWooooooo HOOOOOOooo Chauncey!! I want to play for the Nuggets!!!


xxoo Leslie

[techskater]

As I mentioned, I know this. What I wrote was (deliberately?) taken out of context. (Since it could be misinterpreted.) Obviously, I know this. Read my other posts where I mentioned I would not be able to use my jumps UNTIL masters level. (I have 2flip).

Yes, we are all deliberately out to take your comments out of context and to personally attack you. :frus:

Many people in this thread (doubletoe, rachelskater, Kristin, Mel on Ice, stormy, and more) and on other forums and discussion groups have tried to explain the system and its basis in history and rationale to you. You keep going on and on making the same statement over and over again without providing any new logic to support your claim. You claim to be doing this for fun, may want to compete, but don't want to "eat your vegetables" so to speak. MITF don't require that much work to become proficient if you really work at them, even if it isn't your natural strength.
I think I speak for 99% of people involved in the figure skating world that they would rather see a program that is well SKATED with slightly less difficult elements than someone who throws crap at the wall to see if anything would stick. This was the point rachelskater was making about what the judges in her area told her. This is seen over and over again when certain skaters finish in the bottom of their group because the jumps in their program aren't clean and look like fling and pray behind people who on paper have less content.

[Pandora]

um....Point is that skating is a hobby, and therefore should be enjoyable. (That is why I pay money to do it.)

Work is something different. Not necessarily enjoyable....unfortunately. (That's why they pay me money to do it.)

[Pandora]

OK. Guess (almost) everyone is ok with the fact that all MITF and "connecting moves" (spread eagles, bauers, hydroplanes etc) can be used at all levels and spins at most levels. (Yes, exceptions at the lowest levels on spins. For example, no flying spins at lowest levels.) But....Restrictions on jumps are right and good. OK. Fine. This is YOUR sport. (Collective you.) Just found it a bit unfair. In my opinion, it seemed to favor certain skaters over others, but as many of you mentioned, as I don't compete, this is really not my concern. :giveup:

btw...Re-read my post. Yes, I was correct about the level. The other posters (deliberately?) misinterpreted what I wrote. Have learned important lesson to be much more careful with wording in the future.

[daisies]

PS - no adult skater, even one with Gold (8th) figures and MIF (Senior) has gotten a L3 or 4 step sequence (versus spiral sequence).
oh yes Daisies did manage a L2 or was it an L3 at AN's
Yes, I did get an L3 step sequence at AN 2008. So did Amy Entwistle. I'm not positive, but I don't think any U.S. adult has gotten L3 on steps since; the rules were tightened up after that. Even elite skaters are having trouble now achieving L4 spirals and L3 steps -- and high-level spins, for that matter. It's not as easy to get points for these elements as Pandora would like to make it seem. Yes, Pandora, we know that your point is at least you can attempt those elements, whereas jumps are limited. We get it. No one is taking your words out of context. Everyone is telling you the reasons for it.

[techskater]

Then you really don't have the mindset of most figure skates, at least the ones I know (Adults and Standard track alike, many of them highly successful competitors across the board from basic skills to Champ events at ANs to kids going to JNs and Big Nationals). Most of the skaters I know work on things they don't necessarily enjoy about figure skating so they can improve overall. Most are goal oriented and want to achieve specific things and they want it to be beautiful when they do.
Yes, I hate MIF like no tomorrow. BUT I see benefit in working on them in my skating. Those benefits (improved placements in competition, better and stronger elements, higher levels on spins/spirals/steps) FAR FAR outweigh any dislike for those MIF because I LOVE progress and improvement far more. I love the fact that I was wiping off my skates a couple weeks ago after a lesson with my male coach on a crowded afternoon session and a parent came up to me, who I didn't know, and said "Oh my God! You are a lovely skater. I have watched you and M work for the last 2 months and your improvement is just amazing! You are starting to draw my attention, even when you guys are just skating around. Don't tell my kid I said that!" THIS made every fall on a quick rocker-choctaw, every bobble working on the alternating pivots, and the huge bruise on my hip bone from the inner-inner three turn end pattern splat when we were changing some body positions to increase quickness and power worthwhile.

[techskater]

Yes, I did get an L3 step sequence at AN 2008. So did Amy Entwistle. I'm not positive, but I don't think any U.S. adult has gotten L3 on steps since; the rules were tightened up after that. Even elite skaters are having trouble now achieving L4 spirals and L3 steps -- and high-level spins, for that matter. It's not as easy to get points for these elements as Pandora would like to make it seem. Yes, Pandora, we know that your point is at least you can attempt those elements, whereas jumps are limited. We get it. No one is taking your words out of context. Everyone is telling you the reasons for it.

Mea culpa on the higher than L2 steps, daisies, I only looked at 09 protocols when I made that statement. Sorry, I did see that program and at the time it was rightfully a L3.

[Pandora]

Well....If you are all honestly happy with using the MITF to improve your skating skills then......that's fine. Glad that your hard work was recognized. :D

But do you really believe that it is impossible to impove freestyle without working things like moves? Just don't buy that. Yes, for competition, I see the point. But just to progress on something like jumps? Must have high level moves to get 2axel??!! Don't buy it. Other things more important. Body weight. Strength. Ability to block out fear of falling. Balanced rotation. All more important. But....Will attempt and let you know. ;)

[techskater]

To do a NICE 2A, yes, I believe that. To do a crappy attempt with a wrap and a likely downgrade, have at it.

[phoenix]

Must have high level moves to get 2axel??!!

No.

Need great core strength, timing, edge control and posture to get 2axel?
Yes. All of which, MIF gives you.

[Pandora]

Will take 2axel with wrap....Any 2axel is fine with me. :D Since I don't compete, "downgrade" is moot point.

Yes, I agree. But don't need to use MITF to learn those qualities. Can learn them from doing the jump itself. (More falls but then, I kind of like to fall....which makes me odd....Must be the bubblewrap. Pop. pop.) ;)

[techskater]

Downgrade is NOT a moot point because if you tell people you have a 2A and it's cheated, then you really don't.

[Pandora]

Do you consider wrap a cheat? How so? Jump is fully rotated. "Bad" air position (by ice standards), but fully rotated. Difference is rotating from shoulders down (makes wrap) vs rotating from hips up (makes "correct" position with feet crossed at ankles.) But not a cheat. Just negative GOE.

Note: I am discussing jumps in general. Not my jump. My 2axel is short 1/2 rotation. I now that and I'm working on that now.

[doubletoe]

Pandora,

The basis of your argument is that MIF ability gives a skater the same degree of advantage/handicap as jumping ability. At this point, it is clear that this is not something we can all agree on by discussing it ad infinitum.

To put an end to this debate that seems to be going nowhere, let's stop talking and give you an opportunity to prove your point. Here's the challenge:

- You agree to spend 1 hour per week doing nothing but working diligently on Adult Gold MIF. Another skater from this board who considers him/herself a "poor jumper" will agree to spend an hour per week doing nothing but working diligently on double jumps.

- The two of you agree on the same amount of time per week/month with a qualified coach.

- In two years, you will attempt all of the Gold MIF elements and the other skater will attempt a double jump. If you can do all of the Gold MIF elements, you win. If she lands a double jump, she wins (or he).

- The winner gets a round trip ticket to Adult Nationals 2012, paid for by the participants on this board.

- If you accept this challenge, you will not bring up this subject again on this board until the contest is over. If you do not accept, you will not bring up this subject again on this board.

Well?

[techskater]

If it's your upper body that's fully rotated and your feet aren't rotated to at least 90 degrees of fully backwards, IT IS CHEATED.

[Pandora]

Yes, I do understand what you mean by cheat. I wrap my doubles but they are not cheated. Erin Pearl did clean triples with a very high wrap. Not cheated. Nakano does clean triple flip and lutz with a high wrap. Again, not cheated. All negative GOE's under ice system of scoring, though. I was confused because I thought you implied that wraped jumps are automatically cheated (because of the wrap.) Not true. But yes, if the foot doesn't make it around, then the jumps are cheated.

doubletoe,
Thanks for the invite, but since I barely have enough $ to pay for gas to get to the rink, (much less a coach), I'll have to pass.

Not sure what you want me to stop discussing. Thread has turned to cheating jumps and wrap. (Nothing to do with original "dead horse" of wanting to compete without taking MITF tests.) Can agree not to bring this up again. But do you want me to stop commenting on anything to do with freestyle entirely? Sorry. Not taking you up on this.

[doubletoe]

Yes, I do understand what you mean by cheat. I wrap my doubles but they are not cheated. Erin Pearl did clean triples with a very high wrap. Not cheated. Nakano does clean triple flip and lutz with a high wrap. Again, not cheated. All negative GOE's under ice system of scoring, though. I was confused because I thought you implied that wraped jumps are automatically cheated (because of the wrap.) Not true. But yes, if the foot doesn't make it around, then the jumps are cheated.

doubletoe,
Thanks for the invite, but since I barely have enough $ to pay for gas to get to the rink, (much less a coach), I'll have to pass.

Not sure what you want me to stop discussing. Thread has turned to cheating jumps and wrap. (Nothing to do with original "dead horse" of wanting to compete without taking MITF tests.) Can agree not to bring this up again. But do you want me to stop commenting on anything to do with freestyle entirely? Sorry. Not taking you up on this.

Fine, then you and the other participant can agree on no additional coaching, just working on your own on each of your challenges.

I am only referring to the topic of MIF and your perceived unfairness in regards to the MIF requirements and/or limitations.

[Pandora]

Nope. Would make skating a chore for me and I have too many chores already.:cry: But can see your point of not wanting to hear it any longer. Will try to refrain from bring up/commenting on topics that specifially relate to MITF again.

[TreSk8sAZ]

I'll throw in my 2 cents. I have major issues, mentally, with MITF tests. I love to compete. I test standard track MITF, not adult. It took me awhile to get past Juv MITF to get to move up to Silver.

Jumps are restricted in certain levels. Under IJS they have an exact point value. By restricting the jumps (even in standard track kids competitions) it evens out the playing field so someone cannot stay at a lower level doing jumps that earn more points base value. It encourages people to test up. Even under 6.0, though there is not an exact value, the mindset is still there of an axel being worth more than a flip, etc.

Moves in the field, however, never have an exact value. Rather, these are taken into consideration as a whole under 6.0 and assigned a level under IJS. There is a value to each of those things, but it's not like a choctaw gets x number of points versus a 3 turn getting z. It's an advantage to have higher MITF, no question, because you can do more types of turns. But because there isn't an exact value I don't see it as being a double standard between restricting jumps and not restricting MITF. A person with great speed and flow, doing different types of 3turns and brackets is going to kill someone like me, where at the last ANs I went to I tried choctaws, brackets, rockers, etc. that weren't of high quality. Mainly I tried to challenge myself and it didn't work. I accept that. Someone that had Junior MITF had beautiful footwork and deserved to beat me hands down.

Should she be restricted from doing the exact same turns as me just because she's tested and I haven't, especially since there is no point value associated with them? No. Even if she was doing 3turns she would have kicked my butt because she's a gorgeous skater. Should a person with a 2flip be prevented from doing that in a group that does axels half the time? Absolutely because the 2flip is worth (in actual point value) way more than the axel.

[Pandora]

Just promised doubletoe not to comment on MITF threads but....

That is my point. The jumps do get higher points. So someone with exceptionally strong jumps could use them to garner points against the type of skater you are describing. See what I mean? (Under the current system, a skater cannot use a 2flip-2toe-2loop combo and 2flips and 2lutzes (or even higher level jumps) to counter the weight given to the skater with glorious edges but low level jumps. But this seems to be the way the adult skaters want it....

Can't comment on these (MITF) posts anymore. Annoying the posters. Going to move on to freestyle elements etc.

[RachelSk8er]

Well....If you are all honestly happy with using the MITF to improve your skating skills then......that's fine. Glad that your hard work was recognized. :D

But do you really believe that it is impossible to impove freestyle without working things like moves? Just don't buy that. Yes, for competition, I see the point. But just to progress on something like jumps? Must have high level moves to get 2axel??!! Don't buy it. Other things more important. Body weight. Strength. Ability to block out fear of falling. Balanced rotation. All more important. But....Will attempt and let you know. ;)

Think of how much time in a program is devoted to jumping versus connecting moves, spiral and step sequences, etc. It's a very small fraction. Even if you can jump, no one is going to care or going to want to watch you skate a program if the rest of the stuff you're doing sucks. If you can't skate and therefore can't perform and entertain, the audience and judges will get bored and won't give a crap that you attempted a lousy, cheated 2axel with a bad, unasthetically pleasing leg wrap (unless people in the audience are taking bets as to whether or not you'll fall and how badly you'll hurt yourself).

And if you're a lousy skater trying jumps that are too advanced, you're just going to end up hurting yourself (be our guest, don't let us say we told you so). There is a roller skater here at my rink who also figure skates. I've seen her do double toes, double sals and double loops on rollers but on the ice her actual skating is not that strong and I don't even think she has a properly executed single lutz because she can't maintan the edge and knee bend going into the jump with speed, and she's just starting to work on axels. I'm sure that if she wanted to, she could translate her roller skating jumps to ice and probably try a 2toe, 2loop or 2sal but her coaches and mother will not let her until her actual skating ability improves. There is a reason for that.

[coskater64]

Missed the rest of it!! Well PooH!!

:lol::lol:

Hey doubletoe, you get a 2 loop by the time I pass my Sr Moves!! Hmm Hmmm??

[RachelSk8er]

Missed the rest of it!! Well PooH!!

:lol::lol:

Hey doubletoe, you get a 2 loop by the time I pass my Sr Moves!! Hmm Hmmm??

Will she have to change her screen name to doubleloop?

[coskater64]

maybe doubletoe-doubleloop?:twisted::twisted:

[stacyf419]

At this point of the conversation I can concentrate on nothing but the fact that Pandora doesn't use pronouns. I think it's time I bowed out...:bow:

[Pandora]

Sorry, I'm afraid of pronouns. Especailly since the "collective you" incident on the other board. ;) However... if you like pronouns, then I will use them.

[RachelSk8er]

At this point of the conversation I can concentrate on nothing but the fact that Pandora doesn't use pronouns. I think it's time I bowed out...:bow:

Ha ha thanks, I wasn't going to be the one to say it. :bow: (I'm surprised I even comment in her threads, the snob in me tends to ignore people who fail to use proper grammar, acceptable typos and occasional abbreviations aside.)

[jazzpants]

- You agree to spend 1 hour per week doing nothing but working diligently on Adult Gold MIF. Another skater from this board who considers him/herself a "poor jumper" will agree to spend an hour per week doing nothing but working diligently on double jumps.
Hey, doubletoe!!! Does that "poor jumper" have to have a certain level moves? I'm a "poor jumper!" :P (Then again, I'm a poor everything else too!!! :giveup: :twisted: :P :lol: )

Edited to add: Can't help but chuckle at the Thread title. I think "Jack Handy" of SNL when I see "Deep Thoughts." :lol:

[Stormy]

Sorry, I'm afraid of pronouns. Especailly since the "collective you" incident on the other board. ;) However... if you like pronouns, then I will use them.

What other board?

[Pandora]

Don't know if I can name it on here. (Am I allowed?) Anyways, I got into trouble with collective you vs personal you. The skater thought I might be singling her out specifically when I really ment it generally. I'm not big on pronouns....but since you (plural, collective) seem to like them, I'll use them from now on. :D

[coskater64]

OMG!!
WE like pronouns and field moves!!:lol::lol::lol:

I am using the spare bold, and emoticons!:twisted:!

[Pandora]

OMG, we actually have something in common! 8O I, too, like the emoticons. :D There may be hope for us yet. ;)

[Skittl1321]

Don't know if I can name it on here. (Am I allowed?) Anyways, I got into trouble with collective you vs personal you. The skater thought I might be singling her out specifically when I really ment it generally. I'm not big on pronouns....but since you (plural, collective) seem to like them, I'll use them from now on. :D

Can I just add thank you (personal). Proper sentence formation makes reading these boards so much easier. But I always give a pass if I know the speaker is not a native English speaker. If you are not, then my apologies for judging.

[Pandora]

English is my first and (unfortunately) only language. I don't use pronouns because it is easier and quicker for me to write that way. Most of the kids who I know don't bother writing or texting with them since they take up time and are usually unnecessary. The sentence context will usually denote the subject anyways. However, since I am entirely capable of writing with them (and even diagraming sentences) thanks to the nuns at my Cathloic grammar school, :roll: I will use them on this board at least on the ON ICE section, (or unless I know for certain I am speaking to a teen.)

[Stormy]

English is my first and (unfortunately) only language. I don't use pronouns because it is easier and quicker for me to write that way. Most of the kids who I know don't bother writing or texting with them since they take up time and are usually unnecessary. The sentence context will usually denote the subject anyways. However, since I am entirely capable of writing with them (and even diagraming sentences) thanks to the nuns at my Cathloic grammar school, :roll: I will use them on this board at least on the ON ICE section, (or unless I know for certain I am speaking to a teen.)

Even if you are speaking to a teen, proper grammar and language is always appreciated. It makes reading posts much easier and tends to lend more credibility to a discussion. I've seen so many kids with horrid writing and grammar. That "txtspeak" you mentioned really is doing kids no favors in learning how to write and communicate.

[Kim to the Max]

Pandora,

I have a question for you. My understanding of roller artistic skating is that they still require figures which is what ice skating had before MITF. So, doesn't that translate to ice skating and provide you with a basis for starting MITF?

I have been in a car all day, so I am coming to this discussion late, but earlier, you asked why if people don't like moves, why we still do them.

For me, I know that I will never (unless I get very, very lucky) land a double lutz or be able to pass my Senior Freestyle test. My goal right now (unbeknownst to Coach :) ) is to end up with my Novice Free before my body hates me so much that I can't jump any more.

Moves, on the other hand, while they are not my favorite things to do, provide me with a goal to work towards in a very measurable way. Coach and I joke about how I "hate" just about every move. But, I can see how the skills I learn through my MITF strengthen my overall skating (including my spins and my jumps). I am currently working on Junior Moves. One of the moves, which has been one of my many banes of existence are the power pulls (http://www.denverfsc.org/moves/jun4.html) this move has helped me to develop both an increased comfort doing turns at a higher rate of speed, but also increased core strength (as it relates to skating - yes, I could do exercises for that too, but the muscles wouldn't develop in the same way). This core strength makes the landings of my jumps easier to control and my spins quicker and more centered.

I can see an end with the Moves. My goal is to pass Senior before they change the moves (re-testing Junior in January and we'll see what the timeline looks like then). I then told Coach (who has been harping on this since I started with her and won't let me forget the promise I made) that once we finish moves, that we can start dance. Again, this is a goal for me because I KNOW I will be able to achieve a Gold medal.

To me that Gold medal (as well as any other test) signifies a mastery of skills judged against a minimum standard by an objective observer.

These are just my thoughts. People work hard at what their goals are. If moves is not your goal, then work on freestyle, but know that OVERALL skating wins any day of the week in my book.

[Pandora]

Roller does have school figures and a lot of people still do them, but they are not required to compete at freestyle. I think they were required years ago, but that requirement got dropped before I started competing in the mid-1980s).The few artistic skaters left in the US are getting older and most compete at dance and figures now since they can no longer do the freestyle elements. The few younger skaters who still skate on roller generally no longer do freestyle. It is rare to find a young roller freestylist in the US who can do more than single jumps. Most young roller skaters who can land an axel go onto ice (like Tara) because that is where the opportunities are.:cry: In other countries it is a little different because ice rinks are so rare and so expensive. I think that is one reason why roller is so popular in Asia and South America. It is also popular in Italy and Australlia. I do think they (the roller skating federation) want to bring in an ISI style testing system (with footwork requirement within the freesyle test), but since I didn't compete did not keep up with this. I don't think it is stongly enforced since roller has so few competitors they don't want to alilenate any of them.

If you check out this promo, you can see some of the skaters doing figures. (Wish I could find this film. If anyone knows where to order it, please let me know.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SayJ4Mfb5yQ

More roller figures. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4b-kLsBXn0

[techskater]

Think of how much time in a program is devoted to jumping versus connecting moves, spiral and step sequences, etc. It's a very small fraction. Even if you can jump, no one is going to care or going to want to watch you skate a program if the rest of the stuff you're doing sucks. If you can't skate and therefore can't perform and entertain, the audience and judges will get bored and won't give a crap that you attempted a lousy, cheated 2axel with a bad, unasthetically pleasing leg wrap (unless people in the audience are taking bets as to whether or not you'll fall and how badly you'll hurt yourself).

And if you're a lousy skater trying jumps that are too advanced, you're just going to end up hurting yourself (be our guest, don't let us say we told you so).

We tried that argument, but Pandora ignores the logic and continues with the same argument repeatedly. Ad finitum. I gave a specific amt of non-air time for a Senior program. ;)

[Isk8NYC]

Edited to add: Can't help but chuckle at the Thread title. I think "Jack Handy" of SNL when I see "Deep Thoughts." :lol:Thank you, thank you! :bow:

Pandora - please leave battles on other boards over there, don't bring them over here.
You don't need to name the "other board(s)" since many of their members (and I think the board owner) are here.

[Isk8NYC]

Ok. But that does not negate my point that all level MITF are allowd at any level of competition. (Also, to a point, this applies to spins, though at low levels they are regulated.) You are pointing out a flaw in a few trees and ignoring the forest. You understand my point, so address my agrument.
Then you need to pursue the ISI skating league, which many people have suggested to you, including myself. The ISI limits jumps, spins, and footwork based on test level, including required maneuvers to be done by all competitors in an event. There are some "Uncaptured elements" that can be used in a program at any level. It's a level playing field that will penalize anyone who does ANYTHING from a higher level.

You're really not serious about skating in the USFSA league anyway. Have your fun on the ice, not on this board.
If you were serious, you'd be taking skating lessons.

[Pandora]

Well....
Actually I do post on youtube. (Referenced link several times on this site already.)

Not bothering with lessons. Took enough lessons. Too expensive.

And...
Not ignoring you. Just not responding to same issue since everyone says the horse is dead. Promised another poster to stop arguing it. :roll:

And....
Maybe talking to the wrong people. Found a few young skaters (teens) who are....um.....supportive.....Wonder how many of the people on this thread are adult skaters (willing to bet most). This could be the real problem. Maybe I am just walking in the wrong forest. Need to find other trees.;)

[Isk8NYC]

Okay, we're done here. Have a good walk. Mind the low branches.