IJS Question, under-rotated jumps

[phoenix]

Just curious, been watching some videos from various adult competitions today.

If the skater does a jump combination, and the first jump is short of rotation (we're talking singles here), does the second jump get any credit if it is fully rotated?

Also on that subject; I was watching some of the gold ladies events....a lot of under-rotated axels & doubles.....so, why would a skater/coach include a jump in a program if the skater can't rotate it? I mean if it's generally under-rotated...I'm guessing of course, but some of those attempts really weren't anywhere near a clean jump, so I'm assuming it's not a consistent jump in general/practice either.

Do you put it in figuring it's a work in progress, knowing it likely won't count, but for the experience of working on landing it under the pressure of competition?

Just curious.

ETA: All due respect--I can't even attempt those jumps, so no offense meant....just wondering as to the strategy.

[coskater64]

I have no idea why some insist on doing under rotated jumps, I am required to try an axel, so I do. Otherwise, some skaters may think on that day it will be clean or maybe they will get lucky. Under IJS it is always much better to skate a solid program with clean jumps, nicely held, centered spins and a good spiral or step sequence. It is much better to get +2 on level 1 than -2 on level 2 (spins, spirals, footwork)

Doesn't answer your question--- but I have seen the odd gold lady put out a 3 double program and none of the jumps are clean, including the axel, and then they scream and cry and say the judges are out to get them. That is obviously not the case, it is just the definition of a 1/4 cheat versus 3/4 cheat eludes them. While this might sound cruel it is unfortunately very true, many skaters think if they land backward that its clean, they ignore the giant 3 turn exit and the extra 3 turn entry which gives you 1/2 a rev in the air on a 1 1/2 rev jump.

Math is evil, and physics isn't that friendly. If it ain't clean 80% of the time you really shouldn't do it. I of course, don't take my own advice, but I also take my placement for what it is, and it's always my skating and my result!!

:P:P

[kander]

That's a good question about the second jump of a jump combo counting if the first one is cheated. I don't know, but I would assume it would count.

Regarding people putting under rotated jumps in their programs, I don't think it's nescessarily a bad idea in that it motivates a skater to work on them. It's good for a skaters pride to land a jump in competition even if they don't get full credit for it. If winning is the most important thing then it might be wise to re-choreograph the program, otherwise I'd say leave it alone.

[sk8er1964]

That's a good question about the second jump of a jump combo counting if the first one is cheated. I don't know, but I would assume it would count.

Last year at AN I popped/waxeled (:twisted:) my axel-toe combo and got an A+seq for a total points of zero even though I did tack on the toe. Of course the toe was no beauty either, under the circumstances. :roll:

[techskater]

I've seen protocols that look like this:
1A<+1T for 0.4 BV minus the requiste GOE deduction for the 1A<

Some people can land them but not when the pressure comes from competition and sometimes the jump takes a vacation at the wrong point. My training partner has had a pretty consistent 2S for awhile and yet it decided to desert her at ANs this year and she got a 2S< for it.

[vesperholly]

Doesn't answer your question--- but I have seen the odd gold lady put out a 3 double program and none of the jumps are clean, including the axel, and then they scream and cry and say the judges are out to get them.
This. I can understand pushing oneself to attempt the difficult things, but why waste all the jump attempts on ones that won't garner any points? IJS is a numbers game, and if a clean lutz is worth more than a cheated 2sal, do the lutz. Better to include one, maybe two risky/inconsistent/unclean elements, and stick with a 80% solid program. Otherwise you finish last in every competition you enter. :frus:

[Skittl1321]

I don't think this is a problem unique to adults. I think that some senior ladies would have higher scores if they put out huge +GOE doubles rather than having their triples constantly downgraded.

[RachelSk8er]

Just curious, been watching some videos from various adult competitions today.

If the skater does a jump combination, and the first jump is short of rotation (we're talking singles here), does the second jump get any credit if it is fully rotated?

Also on that subject; I was watching some of the gold ladies events....a lot of under-rotated axels & doubles.....so, why would a skater/coach include a jump in a program if the skater can't rotate it? I mean if it's generally under-rotated...I'm guessing of course, but some of those attempts really weren't anywhere near a clean jump, so I'm assuming it's not a consistent jump in general/practice either.

Do you put it in figuring it's a work in progress, knowing it likely won't count, but for the experience of working on landing it under the pressure of competition?

Just curious.

ETA: All due respect--I can't even attempt those jumps, so no offense meant....just wondering as to the strategy.


I think maybe some people are also still in 6.0 "if I try this maybe I'll get credit for it" mentality since it's used at almost every other competition. I've definitely seen people attempting doubles and you can tell by watching them on warmup and when they compete that they're not just having a bad day with the jump, but they flat out have never landed the jump cleanly/consistently but they're trying it just to see if it helps their placement. Why you would put in a double you know you have know shot of landing and getting credit for when you're throwing away an opportunity for a strong single jump in order to do it is beyond me. Being risky and trying something after you've landed the jump consistently in practice is one thing, but it's not trying/being risky when you have no shot. IJS isn't about taking risks, it's about skating smart. And a lot of that is (or is supposed to be) trickling down to how 6.0 is judged.

It's the same with people attempting these waltz jump-thingamabobs they call axels I see in silver who place behind people who didn't even attempt axels, and they wonder "gee I tried an axel and I ended up behind people who didn't, that's not fair!" No, you didn't attempt an axel. You did an overrotated hoppidy two footed waltz jump. Or you held the entry edge long enough that you turned yourself backward and did a salchow.

[doubletoe]

In response to the first question, if the first jump in a combination is underrotated but the second one is completed, then the first one is downgraded (or given no credit if it was a single) but the second jump is given full credit. Same with the third jump. At AN 2007, I did a lutz-toeloop-loop at the end of my program but pre-rotated the toeloop, getting it downgraded to nothing. It showed up as 1Lz+1T<+1Lo and I got points for the lutz and the loop. For a more recent example, you can see an example of a 2T<+1T on page 16 (the 4th place skater in Masters Int/Nov) in the detailed scoresheets for AN2009. But keep in mind that any -GOE that the judges may give due to the underrotation or poor landing of the first jump will affect the score for the second jump, since the GOE applies to the entire combination.

In some cases, the skater puts a foot down or does a turn, mohawk or crossover between the first and second jumps, which turns the combination into two separate jump passes. That could result in a "1A<+ Seq" on the scoresheet (assuming the first jump was a downgraded axel) with no second jump showing up. If the second jump is a single toeloop and it is pre-rotated, it would be downgraded and get no credit, and would show up as 1A<+1T< on the scoresheet.

I think a lot of skaters are unaware that they sometimes underrotate their axels or doubles. Technical specialists are trained to see quarter turn cheats, even quick ones on the toepick, but it is very hard for a skater to know if she is doing this, and even coaches often fail to see a 1/4 turn cheat on the landing (or they see it but don't understand how much that will hurt their skater under IJS). And some skaters do fine in practice but underrotate when they are nervous because they are holding back a little.

[liz_on_ice]

This. I can understand pushing oneself to attempt the difficult things, but why waste all the jump attempts on ones that won't garner any points? IJS is a numbers game, and if a clean lutz is worth more than a cheated 2sal, do the lutz. Better to include one, maybe two risky/inconsistent/unclean elements, and stick with a 80% solid program. Otherwise you finish last in every competition you enter. :frus:

When they have IJS for local competitions, does it include the full 'instant replay' kit and technical review panel to determine those underrotations?

[RachelSk8er]

When they have IJS for local competitions, does it include the full 'instant replay' kit and technical review panel to determine those underrotations?

Usually not. Bringing in the data input operator and all the equipment for a local competition (when there is only so much equipment available in the first place) only hikes up the cost.

[techskater]

When they have IJS for local competitions, does it include the full 'instant replay' kit and technical review panel to determine those underrotations?

Every competition here has used the feed from the videographer and a DA and ATS. There's a way to do it that's less expensive than the ISU method - we rent ours from TCFSA typically.

[aussieskater]

I don't think this is a problem unique to adults. I think that some senior ladies would have higher scores if they put out huge +GOE doubles rather than having their triples constantly downgraded.

The problem with seniors putting out doubles (albeit very good ones) is that the lack of triple attempts drastically hurts their component scores. It shouldn't but it does. Especially for senior men.

[Skittl1321]

The problem with seniors putting out doubles (albeit very good ones) is that the lack of triple attempts drastically hurts their component scores. It shouldn't but it does. Especially for senior men.

Well the ones I'm thinking of aren't getting good PCS anyway. So I think it would improve their scores to get +GOEs on jumps instead of constant downgrades.

And at Skate Canada (which arguably wasn't a good event) Finland's Lepisto medaled with maybe 2 triples, and a bunch of really nice doubles. It certainly worked for her.

[blackmanskating]

Wow I haven't competed yet but One thing is for sure...I'm gonna let my coach worry about all the technical stuff. I just wanna go out there and put on a clean performance and have fun. After reading some of the posts here...it just seems like way too much for me to worry about and I think it will take the joy out skating for me. I think that's part of the reason why I haven't competed yet. I'll probably be one of the few skaters that won't want to go into the kiss and cry just because I won't care what my score or placement is.


BlackManSkating

[Isk8NYC]

Kiss and Cry thread is here: http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=30249 (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=30249)

[Isk8NYC]

Before Sectionals, one of our skaters was struggling with a double jump that just wasn't working for her. She worked for HOURS on that jump - I felt bruised just watching her. I wondered why she didn't just swap it out for something more consistent, but I didn't ask.

I believe that she didn't want admit defeat and change the program. She knew she'd get it sooner or later and she was right: she landed that jump at AN and placed very high.

Bravado, perhaps, but the rest of her program was solid, so she could afford to take the chance.Sometimes putting a dicey jump in a program forces the skater to work on it more, to WANT that jump.

I'm thinking that skaters who feel that they can't be competitive in the event might want to take a chance and commit to a particular maneuver that's a stretch for them. It's their own personal challenge, so to speak.

Also, some competitors use the same program for more than one season, so what you might be seeing is the genesis of a program that will be more competitive and consistent the following year.

[Skate@Delaware]

Wow I haven't competed yet but One thing is for sure...I'm gonna let my coach worry about all the technical stuff. I just wanna go out there and put on a clean performance and have fun. After reading some of the posts here...it just seems like way too much for me to worry about and I think it will take the joy out skating for me. I think that's part of the reason why I haven't competed yet. I'll probably be one of the few skaters that won't want to go into the kiss and cry just because I won't care what my score or placement is.


BlackManSkating
I'm with you on that. I do compete and let my coach worry about the details; she puts things in at the beginning of the season, if they don't work out they are replaced with something else-no stress. As long as we hit the required things, she is happy.

You should think about trying artistic just for the fun of it-it's more like an exhibition skate.