Artistic Scoring Notes

[AxelBaby]

I would just like to weigh in and give my two cents. (And I never post here, but feel strongly about this issue). I understand the REASON for the limits. But honestly, I hate it.

I am going to have a clean triple loop and triple flip before I have a consistent double toe or double salchow. I absolutely despise those jumps.

And yes, I do understand the reason for the progression of jumps and that you need to have all of your jumps solid and clean, rather than just having one strong jump.

But I also have to say that I don't think that it would require a change in the standard track. I have a hard time with the debate (not on this forum, but in general) where everyone insists that the closer the adult track resembles standard, the better it is for adults.

Some advocates preach this theory but then at competitions, especially in an artistic category, the most ridiculous "themed" or corny program with little to no skating wins. Whats the point? I can't even begin to count how many times I have seen someone dress up in some ridiculous outfit, gone out there and basically made a mockery out of adult skating and taken the podium spots. It is hard to see that happen and then hear about how we can only do certain skills in a certain level program.

I'm sure most people wont agree with me. But it is just my thoughts on the issue.

[Virtualsk8r]

:frus: You're Right!:bow:

I dont' know how many times I have choreographed an artistic program that actually tells a story or depicts the theme with skating moves and appropriate footwork etc.....only to have the skater at the bottom of the pack while the adult who waves her arms around skating to 'Danny Boy' or 'Yanni" wins with only long edges, spirals and a few pivots....No theme - no use of the music for interpreting that theme.....just "adult" arm waving.

In fact, some of my skaters would prefer to skate with the kids, because the judging is better!

[RachelSk8er]

:frus: You're Right!:bow:

I dont' know how many times I have choreographed an artistic program that actually tells a story or depicts the theme with skating moves and appropriate footwork etc.....only to have the skater at the bottom of the pack while the adult who waves her arms around skating to 'Danny Boy' or 'Yanni" wins with only long edges, spirals and a few pivots....No theme - no use of the music for interpreting that theme.....just "adult" arm waving.

In fact, some of my skaters would prefer to skate with the kids, because the judging is better!

There may be more to that skating around and arm waving though. A former synchro teammate of mine did an artistic program last year that everyone loved. But if you watched her program, nothing she was doing was difficult at all considering that we were in masters. She's just an absolutely gorgeous skater and had extraordinary edge quality and speed in everything she did, and put her entire body behind every movement (helps when you have an awesome spread eagle that can eat up at least 15 seconds of program time). She always placed first or second.

[doubletoe]

:frus: You're Right!:bow:

I dont' know how many times I have choreographed an artistic program that actually tells a story or depicts the theme with skating moves and appropriate footwork etc.....only to have the skater at the bottom of the pack while the adult who waves her arms around skating to 'Danny Boy' or 'Yanni" wins with only long edges, spirals and a few pivots....No theme - no use of the music for interpreting that theme.....just "adult" arm waving.

In fact, some of my skaters would prefer to skate with the kids, because the judging is better!

Well, I think most people will agree that artistic program judging is a crapshoot. Personally, I figure if I can't be OK with the judges placing me last, I shouldn't compete in artistic/interpretive (and that's one reason I haven't, LOL!). Also, if you look at the artistic program as being the equivalent of the Program Components Score section of an IJS scoresheet, the scoring is broken down into 5 separate scores: Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance & Execution, Choreography, Interpretation. While your interpretation may have been better than the skaters who won your events, chances are their other 4 components were better. In fact, they would score higher in 3 of those 5 components simply by being more experienced skaters and/or having higher level MIF or dance tests under their belts. As Rachelsk8r said, it's about the overall skating ability and edge quality.

P.S. Rachelsk8r - Really? A 15 second spread eagle helps? 'Cause I can do that, LOL!

[techskater]

@doubletoe - you said succinctly what I meant by my response to coskater. Also, the skater in question that rachelskater talked about has speed and edge quality that is more than just a 15s spread eagle. She's just wow.

[Stormy]

P.S. Rachelsk8r - Really? A 15 second spread eagle helps? 'Cause I can do that, LOL!

Yes, she's a GORGEOUS skater and was 1st in Gold at Buckeye. I'm telling you, if she enters Mids and ANs at Championship Gold, she'll win. Hands down. Her PCS scores would be through the roof. :bow:

[RachelSk8er]

Yes, she's a GORGEOUS skater and was 1st in Gold at Buckeye. I'm telling you, if she enters Mids and ANs at Championship Gold, she'll win. Hands down. Her PCS scores would be through the roof. :bow:

I had to skate next to her in our synchro program a few years ago, it was great. All eyes were on her and I could just hide.

I figure if I can't be OK with the judges placing me last, I shouldn't compete in artistic/interpretive (and that's one reason I haven't, LOL!)

For as competitive as I can be, I'm actually OK with the fact that I never place well in interp when I have to skate masters and not adult (since a few comps don't split them). I actually had fun doing it last year, and my whole group at ANs was good so it wasn't like I was way out of my league (which I kind of was in '08, I was bronze free in masters interp and hadn't competed in singles in ages so I freaked out). I might actually try a comedy program this year since I have a good idea that will be fun, and I have a great artistic idea but I'm not doing it until '11 (need costume and no $).

[Black Sheep]

Yes, she's a GORGEOUS skater and was 1st in Gold at Buckeye. I'm telling you, if she enters Mids and ANs at Championship Gold, she'll win. Hands down. Her PCS scores would be through the roof. :bow:

I was irked to see this lady skating in Gold @ Buckeye. Such textbook perfection makes her clearly a Masters skater!

And some folks wonder why I'm skipping Wyandotte, Mids, and ANs this year. I've spent too many years and too much money losing to skaters like her. It's no fun and painfully frustrating.

[Skittl1321]

I was irked to see this lady skating in Gold @ Buckeye. Such textbook perfection makes her clearly a Masters skater!

And some folks wonder why I'm skipping Wyandotte, Mids, and ANs this year. I've spent too many years and too much money losing to skaters like her. It's no fun and painfully frustrating.

Freestyle levels are based on freestyle skills- and it sounds like she was a synchro skater. Does she have the jumps required for the tests needed for the Masters levels? If she's doing those in the Gold level, then yeah, be irked. But if it's her edges that are winning, well then that's just one of those times where you have to say "if I got a bronze, it would be like getting a gold" (Our synchro team does that a lot when we enter events where no matter how good we are and no matter how bad they are, we still have no chance. The levels are just too open)

[Black Sheep]

Freestyle levels are based on freestyle skills- and it sounds like she was a synchro skater. Does she have the jumps required for the tests needed for the Masters levels? If she's doing those in the Gold level, then yeah, be irked. But if it's her edges that are winning, well then that's just one of those times where you have to say "if I got a bronze, it would be like getting a gold" (Our synchro team does that a lot when we enter events where no matter how good we are and no matter how bad they are, we still have no chance. The levels are just too open)

I got 10th out of 11 in "Champ Gold Ladies" at Buckeye. It was humiliating.

[Clarice]

I got 10th out of 11 in "Champ Gold Ladies" at Buckeye. It was humiliating.

I don't understand why that should be humiliating. If you skated well, but the others skated better that day, why can't you still be proud of your efforts?

I am a professional musician. Many years ago, my mother, who is also a musician, taught me that success in our field requires hard work, but that work isn't always enough. She said that no matter how talented I was and how hard I practiced, sooner or later I would meet people who were more talented and would win auditions over me without having to try nearly as hard. That doesn't mean I'm bad, just that they're better. Today, I don't win orchestral auditions, but I get steady work as a sub and extra. I'm proud of what I do, and happy when I get to be part of a performance no matter how small my part is. I don't feel ashamed of losing an audition to a better player.

I think there's a lesson for us as skaters in here somewhere.

[Mrs Redboots]

I got 10th out of 11 in "Champ Gold Ladies" at Buckeye. It was humiliating.

Why humiliating? Disappointing, perhaps - but you can't control what the other skaters do, and you certainly can't control what the judges think. All you can do is go out there, skate your best, have fun, and enjoy having the rink to yourself for a few minutes - and enjoy having others watching you and wishing you well!

Sure, it's disappointing to finish at the bottom of the heap, but the adult skating world is so small you must have a pretty good idea of where you're going to finish as soon as you see who the opposition is! And it isn't important, anyway - we are doing this for fun, not to gain medals for our country or anything.

[Isk8NYC]

Please don't accuse other people of sandbagging on the forum.
If you feel that strongly, contact the proper authorities to lodge a complaint. There's a difference between free speech and anonymous slander.

I got 10th out of 11 in "Champ Gold Ladies" at Buckeye. It was humiliating.
Her skating really had no impact on your performance. If she had been in another category, how would that have moved you up in the rankings? To me, you would have placed 9th out of 10, right?

Just a note about sportsmanship: when you don't place well, it's time to take an honest look at what you did well and what didn't work, plus you need to acknowledge what your competitors did well. Until a skater allows themselves that honesty, they really can't enjoy the experience. It festers and makes them bitter, which shows in their skating and attitude. Once you recognize these things, then you can make a strategic plan to improve yourself.

(By "you" I mean any skater in this situation - I don't mean to single you out.)

[Skittl1321]

Why humiliating? Disappointing, perhaps

Good choice of words. I decided not to reply when I first saw the response about being humiliated- but now that I've seen this, I realize you are right- a low placement is disappointing, losing your top during the competition is humiliating.

[RachelSk8er]

If there is one thing I can't stand in life in general, it's when people point fingers and blame others for their lack of success (whether on the ice, in the career world, etc), rather than looking at themselves and trying to make themselves better. You don't like losing to someone who is a better skater than you? Fine, work harder. Can't handle it, then find a new hobby. Don't blame others who are clearly following the rules. So many people have this horrible mentality that they somehow "deserve" things or are entitled to them, and if they don't get them, others are to blame. I don't get it.

[Isk8NYC]

I watched several artistic programs as a spectator and really think that the better performances included a blend of skating maneuvers and artistic movements. I didn't see many costumed performers do well on the results sheets unless they had both of those sides covered.

How are artistic events judged? It sounds like it's just appeal to the judges.

[Skittl1321]

I judged a very small ISI competition once. It was my first time as a judge at all, I recieved a lot of guidance on exactly what to look for in freeskates, for artistic I was told "pick the one you like the best".

And that was it. I ended up giving my first place to a skater with a fall- because she played it so in character, it was fantastic. I'm not sure any of the other skaters were necessarily better skaters than her either, but it was her character that won me over.

[liz_on_ice]

now that I've seen this, I realize you are right- a low placement is disappointing, losing your top during the competition is humiliating.
:D :D :bow:

[jazzpants]

Just my experience, you can take it or leave it....

Since I passed Bronze, I have had a very rough go at coming up to speed to be competitive with the other "big girls at Bronze." At my very first AN, I was at or near the cellar and this year at AN. I knew that some of the ladies at Bronze FS can be perceived as sandbaggers. There was a part of me going in that was thinking "I'm gonna look really bad compared to these ladies." I knew going in that I wasn't gonna place well b/c of those skills sets I'm lacking to place well b/c I'm still "working on it." That year I did my best and suck it up to experience. I placed dead last on my LE/C event but better than I thought on my technical (15 out of 18)

I went home after that first AN and watch my event video... studying everything and trying to see what I can work on quickly that might help me to look cleaner on the ice. I brought my list and thankfully my list and my coaches list were pretty much identical!!! :lol: We then narrowed down to a couple of items that they felt that if I work on those I would get the most benefit from. That one item was "improve overall basic skating!!!" It took me over a year just to get better crossovers and there is STILL a LOT more work to be done. I worked on that for over 6 months and then when we had our critique session, the remarks we knew would pretty much be the same, but what I didn't expect was one of the judges coming up to me after the session to tell me that he just couldn't believe how much improvements he's seen with me from last year when he's watched me compete.

This year's AN... one placement short of going to the final round in technical (7th out of 9 and top 6 went to final round! SO CLOSE!!! :frus:) and 3 slots up from last year's disasterous interp skate!!! I knew then that I was on the right track.

When I watched my video of my event, I knew that I still have a lot to work on but for the first time I didn't say that I looked like a "total disaster of a Bronze FS skater." :lol: Problem is that at the time of my last AN, I was also unemployed and was worried that at the end I would not be able to skate, never mind afford going to AN again. (Yup! Sure enough as it turns out, I certainly didn't have the money for it and am thankful for the timing of when I got my current job b/c I was in danger of NOT being able to pay for the property taxes or the house insurance -- legally required in California!) :bow: I made the decision then to use my money towards working on my overall skating and used "passing Silver Moves" as a benchmark for me to say "I've knocked this goal off my list and I'm ready to go back to compete again to see how I fare with these changes." Not expecting much, but I am curious to see whether my coaches are right in saying what they said... ;)


And as for the "sandbaggers?" I wouldn't dream of attacking them 8O, especially since they were right there cheering me on at the event!!! :bow: The 'ol Bugs Bunny "Can't beat 'em? Join 'em!" motto is very apropos. I got to know these lovely ladies a little better and learned about their training and their skating background. This feedback plus watching the videos again gave me a lot more good feedback to take back to my coaches so I can get those things knocked out!!!

So those of you that are struggling with always feeling like you're not placed well at competition...I've been there! I'm still in the struggle and it's a tough struggle. Hang in there and "work smarter, not harder!!!"

Just food for thought...

[jazzpants]

..but now that I've seen this, I realize you are right- a low placement is disappointing, losing your top during the competition is humiliating. http://www.cosgan.de/images/kao/frech/d030.gif

[daisies]

Something I learned in a non-skating class: No one can make you "feel" anything. You allow yourself to feel it. For example, people say thinks like, "He made me so mad." No, you allowed yourself to be mad at that person's action -- but you could have chosen not to be mad. It is up to you.

So if you felt "humiliated" over a placement, that is your own doing. (It also assumes that other people even care. They don't.) If it happens again, hopefully you can say to yourself, "I am not humiliated, I am going to take this experience and learn from it for next time."

Good luck.

[Terri C]

Hey it's the holidays, so here goes....

This past year was my first AN and I knew full well going in that the goal for me was to stay on my feet and skate clean, which I did. I had been having issues with my salchow for a good part of the season and when my nerves kick in, my sitspin tends to make a quick dissapearance. So can one imagine the joy I had when I landed my salchow and did my sitspin at the end of my program in my QR at AN?!

Artistic.... I can to a extent agree with the OP issue, as I have a tendency to do more artistic than entertainment programs and when the two are combined, I'm almost always guaranteed the spot in the cellar.

So, my point is, to not worry about your competitors or how the judges place who or where, because you cannot control that, but you can control how YOU skate. That's how I've handled the last two competitions I've been at (AN and one I did in September), and I've been happier at events ever since.

[Stormy]

Freestyle levels are based on freestyle skills- and it sounds like she was a synchro skater. Does she have the jumps required for the tests needed for the Masters levels? If she's doing those in the Gold level, then yeah, be irked. But if it's her edges that are winning, well then that's just one of those times where you have to say "if I got a bronze, it would be like getting a gold" (Our synchro team does that a lot when we enter events where no matter how good we are and no matter how bad they are, we still have no chance. The levels are just too open)

She has her Juvenile free, putting her solidly in the Gold category for freestyle. Her dance tests put her in Masters for artistic events. She does have high moves and dance tests, but so do lots of other Gold freestyle skaters. I think it's awesome she's come into freestyle. That's what adult skating really needs. Having a skater who's done synchro her whole life deciding to do freestyle and wanting to be a part of adult skating is great, IMO. Props to her. Rachelsk8r did the same thing and props to her too!

[Stormy]

My thoughts about artistic mirror a lot of what's been said. It's most defintiely an event you have to go into saying "I'm here to have fun, and whatever happens, happens!" It's too subjective to have any other sort of attitude. You're setting yourself up otherwise if the results aren't what you want.

No matter what event you enter, all you can control is what you do. Everything else is out of your hands. It's up to you to prepare and work hard and improve your own skating to the best of your abilities. Not everyone can win. I go into every competition wanting to skate my best, with a realistic placement goal. This year at Easterns I wanted to place in the top half at Championship Gold and I did that. That's my goal again for next year's Easterns.