New Tech Notification - Adult Singles / Jumps

[2salch0w]

I just saw the following update regarding jump requirements in adult singles. Interesting rule change, but probably won't have much of an impact.

The first rule wouldn't need to be invoked all that much, since most programs at any adult level have at least one sequence or combination. But even if you didn't, you'd just lose 20% off of your last solo jump. So basically, .1 deduction.

The second rule is targeting gold programs that don't have an axel attempt. Your last jump will then count as an axel attempt and you'll get 0. So, the gold skater w/out an axel would just plan a toe loop or salchow there and take the .4 hit.

Good rules in theory, but probably very little impact to placements. I prefer to see an axel in a gold program, so I like the idea of a penalty for not even trying, but I'd opt for something more like -1 (like a fall deduction).

Tim


_______________________________

DATED: December 10, 2009

Re: Adult Singles Skating – Well Balanced Program Requirements- Jumps
Adult competition events have specific elements that must be included as part of
their well balanced program requirements. The International Judging System
(IJS) is based upon skaters completing a maximum number of
opportunities within their programs. The following process will be used
to integrate the Adult Well Balanced Program requirements into the Adult Events
that will be judged using the IJS system.
1. Jump combination or sequence - Adult free skating events (Bronze and
higher) allow a maximum number of jump combinations or sequences but
require at least one to be included in a skater's program. For events that
are judged under the IJS system and have a jump combination/sequence
required the following will apply:
In the event a skater does not perform a jump combination or jump
sequence when it is required, the technical panel will add "+sequence" to
the last jump element. No additional penalty will be assessed.
2. Axel jump - If an axel type jump is required by the Well Balance Program
requirements but not performed within the maximum allowed number of jump
elements, the last jump performed and included in the skater's identified
elements list will receive an "*" / No Value designation and fill a box. (This is the
same procedure used for other non- Adult IJS events).

[daisies]

The second rule is targeting gold programs
No, it's for Masters. Gold programs do not require an axel-type jump, Masters programs do. So if a Masters skater doesn't attempt one, that skater's last jump is asterisked and won't count. It does NOT -- I repeat, NOT -- affect Gold.

Neither of these rules is new. This just puts the IJS penalty for them in writing.

[Stormy]

No, it's for Masters. Gold programs do not require an axel-type jump, Masters programs do. So if a Masters skater doesn't attempt one, that skater's last jump is asterisked and won't count. It does NOT -- I repeat, NOT -- affect Gold.

Neither of these rules is new. This just puts the IJS penalty for them in writing.

Thanks for the clarification!

[doubletoe]

Fortunately, if any such rule ever gets implemented for Gold, it will have to be announced in the Governing Council report in May, giving skaters 10 months to adjust to the new rule before the next Adult Sectionals.

[sk8er1964]

I've wondered why the gold well balanced requirements don't require an element that is on the gold test. I don't mind that the axel isn't required, I'm just curious about the rationale.

[Kim to the Max]

I've wondered why the gold well balanced requirements don't require an element that is on the gold test. I don't mind that the axel isn't required, I'm just curious about the rationale.

That was my thought as well because to pass the Gold test you need an axel, so (and maybe I'm naive because I test standard track) I would have thought it would be almost automatic that an axel would be included in a gold program...but that could just be me not knowing :)

[doubletoe]

There are a lot of test elements at each level that are not specifically required in the competitive programs. For example, a sitspin is not required in the Bronze program, a camel spin is not required in the Silver program, and a CCoSp is not required in the Gold program. A lutz is also required on the Gold test but not required in the Gold program.

[sk8er1964]

Using that logic, then why is it required for masters?

ETA - and why isn't the lutz required for Gold. (For the record, I HATE the lutz.)

[techskater]

There are no required elements in a Gold competitive program because it's supposed to be a FS program, but in order to do well (as you well know skater1964), you need to have 6 solid jumping passes, 3 of which are combinations/sequences, three spins, and a spiral or step sequence. FWIW, the spiral sequence tends to be the element of choice for most Gold ladies and I'd say 75% have at least one Axel attempt in their program. I took the Lutz out of my program because it's been a liability. Actually, without the Lutz, I feel much more confident (even with 2 Axels).

[sk8er1964]

There are required items. We are required to do one jump combo, for example.

I guess where I'm coming from is why is the axel required for masters but not gold, when it is on the gold test. Or, if the axel is required for masters, then why isn't the next hardest jump (lutz) required for gold? (Personally, I would hate that). Just wondering on the logic of it all.

[techskater]

By required I mean there's no "Must do Axel type jump" requirement. You can do anything up to and including the max jump items listed.

Probably because of the fickle nature of Axels for a lot of Gold level skaters would be my guess why we didn't get the masters' "Axel requirement". Lutz probably isn't required because of the way some tech panels treat it (there were a lot of people who got flips called one year that were actually Lz e's)

[daisies]

I'm not positive, but it stands to reason that Masters has it because Masters is based on standard-track tests, and standard-track levels have the axel-type jump requirement. True adult levels like Gold wouldn't (and shouldn't) have any sort of jump requirement. It's meant to be inclusive, not exclusive, and such requirements would keep a lot of skaters from entering. Yes, you have to land the axel in the test, but a lot of our adults tested years ago and may not have the same skill set at a more advanced age.

This is just my opinion, not an official reason.

[MusicSkateFan]

IMHO Why is the Adult Committee always changing the jump rules w/out looking at spins and spirals. If you are going to put all these limits on jumps then you should do the same for spins and spirals. Now we have people doing level 3 and 4 spins and spirals in gold who don't even attempt an axel. IMHO if you can do a level 3 or 4 flying camel combo spin then you should have an axel and at least a 2sal attempt in your program. If your body can take that kind of contortion to do such a complicated spin you SHOULD be doing an axel.

I guess I need to get going on my judging credentials so that I can harpoon these "Gold" skaters who can't get their fat behinds in the air for a single axel!

:twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:

[RachelSk8er]

IMHO Why is the Adult Committee always changing the jump rules w/out looking at spins and spirals. If you are going to put all these limits on jumps then you should do the same for spins and spirals. Now we have people doing level 3 and 4 spins and spirals in gold who don't even attempt an axel. IMHO if you can do a level 3 or 4 flying camel combo spin then you should have an axel and at least a 2sal attempt in your program. If your body can take that kind of contortion to do such a complicated spin you SHOULD be doing an axel.

I guess I need to get going on my judging credentials so that I can harpoon these "Gold" skaters who can't get their fat behinds in the air for a single axel!

:twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:

You obviously are not that familiar with adult skating if you think it's so easy to just do an axel if you can spin.

Some people are much stronger at spinning than jumping or vice-versa. Trust me, there are plenty of people who have great spins and just are not good at jumping, no matter how hard they try. You can hit great spin positions when you have a lot of flexibility, but that flexibilty that makes someone a good spinner is not going to translate into good jumping.

I'm going to use my friend Rochelle as an example (I'm sure she wouldn't mind :)). Gorgeous spins. She has a flying camel-catch foot and when she nails it, it's clearly a masters level spin. But she's always struggled with axels. I don't know if she's ever landed it clean in competition (I've seen it very close). She didn't pass her gold free on the fist try because of the axel, but got the test at Buckeye after having to reskate the axel.

Steve is another one. He won champ gold men last year without an axel becauase he knew how to work the system and he has great spins.

And there are plenty of skaters hanging out in silver who have excellent spins just as good as any gold skater (because they have the flexibility to do a lot of positions), but they don't have axels.

I don't see a problem with this at all, everyone has different strengths and weaknesses in their skating. I think the only time I've ever watched a skater and thought they were clearly in the wrong place based on their spins alone was Bronze I in '07 when Carolyn (who won) did a bielmann-change-bielmann. She would have won a medal in silver I without an axel with spins like hers. (But I think she decided to do ANs at the last minute, that was when we needed adult tests for ANs and she only had time to get her bronze free.)

Some skaters spend more training time working on spins because due to knee or back problems or whatnot, they can't spend a whole hour doing jump after jump after jump and falling repeatedly like a kid or teenager can. So naturally for these people the spins are going to get stronger than the jumps.

I think at levels like silver and bronze, program time limits keep spins from getting too complicated. When I competed bronze before the extra 10 seconds were added, I felt like I had just enough time to hit the number of revs (plus 1 or 2 extra for insurance) in each spin and get out. In silver, my coach keeps wanting me to tack all these things onto my spins (a COE on my solo spin, change my sit-sit to a camel sit-sit, and I have a flying camel-forward sit that he wants me to add another position or change of foot on to). I just don't feel like there is the time in my program to do that. From this perspective limiting jumps makes sense because it doesn't really take any longer to do a double sal versus a single jump.

[Ellyn]

Some skaters spend more training time working on spins because due to knee or back problems or whatnot, they can't spend a whole hour doing jump after jump after jump and falling repeatedly like a kid or teenager can. So naturally for these people the spins are going to get stronger than the jumps.

Yup. I can't do all the jumps I could do when I was 14 (up to axel), but I can spin a whole lot better.

I think at levels like silver and bronze, program time limits keep spins from getting too complicated. When I competed bronze before the extra 10 seconds were added, I felt like I had just enough time to hit the number of revs (plus 1 or 2 extra for insurance) in each spin and get out.

Even with the extra 10 seconds, I don't have time to do three separate spins. So I do two combination spins to make room for most of my spin skills.

From this perspective limiting jumps makes sense because it doesn't really take any longer to do a double sal versus a single jump.

It does if you need to telegraph it more. :)
Single jumps, especially the easier single jumps, are easier to pop right out of the choreography.

[MusicSkateFan]

You obviously are not that familiar with adult skating if you think it's so easy to just do an axel if you can spin.
.


No I guess a Two-Time Adult National medalist(one gold ,one silver at two different levels) is not so familiar with adult skating.:roll::roll:

You bring up another point on knee jerk rule changes. Giving Bronze skaters more time for their program IMHO is BS. Learn good stroking and edge quality to complete all the elements! We keep watering down USFS adult skating, we might as well just switch over to ISI. This "All INCLUSIVE" term has nothing to do with "COMPETITION". I mean really what is this? the Montessory Figure Skating Association?

:x:x:x:x

[daisies]

Why is the Adult Committee always changing the jump rules w/out looking at spins and spirals.
The committee isn't changing the rules. The committee doesn't operate in a vacuum. It only proposes changes, and those changes have to go through several layers of approval, including any other committees it affects (Competitions, Singles, Pairs, Dance, etc.), the USFS board of directors and the entire General Council of USFS delegates.

I guess I need to get going on my judging credentials so that I can harpoon these "Gold" skaters who can't get their fat behinds in the air for a single axel!
"Harpoon their fat behinds"? One of the most offensive things I have ever read on this board. And that's saying something. With this public declaration of bias, good luck getting that judging appointment.

[sk8er1964]

I do think MusicSkateFan has a point.

The flexibility part of the IJS rules regarding both spins and spirals give a huge advantage to certain skaters who have natural flexibility. FTR, I don't like this in standard/elite skating either, but I see it impacting adults far more than the elites or kids.

Also, the points that can be gained in spiral sequences and spins are out of whack as compared to jumps, because the system was created for elite skaters who are doing triples and quads, not for us. I'd like to see much lower base values for those elements to make them compatible for people doing doubles and singles.

We had a meeting several years ago at Mids where we talked about developing a point system for adults, but apparently it didn't go anywhere. Too bad.

[Stormy]

No I guess a Two-Time Adult National medalist(one gold ,one silver at two different levels) is not so familiar with adult skating.:roll::roll:

I know what you're saying, but I'm really not sure how you're making the connection. Having flexibility and being able to do a level 2-3 SpSq and combinations spins truly do not carry over to the ability to do an axel. I have a LOT of trouble with my axel and can land a clean one only on a truly good day. I MUST skate in Gold because I have my Juvenile free (got a mercy pass a few years ago because the judges knew me and knew I was only taking the Juv free just to have the test....I had no idea it would bite me like this years later). So I have to make up my points somewhere else if the axel isn't working.

So I ask the reverse of you....it seems like you have a strong axel and double sal. Why aren't you doing more complicated spins and spirals? If you have the strength to have a good axel, you should be able to increase your flexibility no problem!

And since we're throwing our "cred" out there, I am a 4 time Adult National medalist, 3 in Silver and 1 in Gold. There. Now, don't I feel special? :twisted:

[RachelSk8er]

You bring up another point on knee jerk rule changes. Giving Bronze skaters more time for their program IMHO is BS. Learn good stroking and edge quality to complete all the elements! We keep watering down USFS adult skating, we might as well just switch over to ISI. This "All INCLUSIVE" term has nothing to do with "COMPETITION". I mean really what is this? the Montessory Figure Skating Association?

I competed bronze when I had my silver dance test and novice MIF (I'm pretty sure that constitutes good stroking and edge quality for that level) and to get in 1 solo jump, 3 jump combos, 3 spins (2 in combination) and a 1/2 surface step sequence in 1:40 even with my speed was a rush. There really was not time to hold spins and to show good stroking and edge quality even for those skaters who did have it. Preliminary has the same amount of program time and altough I don't know the well balanced program for that level, the test only requires 2 spins.

No I guess a Two-Time Adult National medalist(one gold ,one silver at two different levels) is not so familiar with adult skating.

Let me bow down to you after I finish polishing all the medals I've accumulated over 15 synchro nationals, a few collegiate conferece championships and 3 ANs. But maybe my fat ### should be harpooned into doing an axel first, right?

[Ellyn]

I think that on average men will find it easier to learn axels and double jumps as adults than women will.

Also on average younger adults (20s-30s) will find it easier to learn or maintain multirotation jumps and flexibility moves than older adults (50s-60s), given the same level of basic skating skill.

Of course there will be some exceptions. And the best skaters will be strong in all areas.

That's what makes it so hard to set level playing fields for "adults" as a general class, even at the same basic skill level.

[MusicSkateFan]

I luv to ruffle feathers! I had no problem getting all my bronze elements in with the old time frame. You just have to skate faster.

Never said I had a double sal.

Two lower back operations have made catch foot spins an impossibility. Staying in shape and skating with speed makes jumping far more feasable.

[w.w.west]

WOW! :roll:

[Debbie S]

Giving Bronze skaters more time for their program IMHO is BS. Learn good stroking and edge quality to complete all the elements! Well the extra 10 secs will give skaters more time for transitions and choreo, to show off their good stroking and edge quality. :twisted:

I mean really what is this? the Montessory Figure Skating Association?Well your tirades do sound a bit preschool-ish....:roll:

Also, the points that can be gained in spiral sequences and spins are out of whack as compared to jumps, because the system was created for elite skaters who are doing triples and quads, not for us. I'd like to see much lower base values for those elements to make them compatible for people doing doubles and singles.You see that in kid skating, too, esp in Juv and Int, where kids are usually just doing doubles (and single axels). Spins and footwork make up a greater share of total points. On one hand, I like that it allows for kids with strong skills in non-jump areas to be rewarded - but OTOH there are 6 jump elements compared to 3 spins and 1 footwork sequence - shouldn't jumps count more, or should they? It seems at the elite level, things are starting to swing back more toward jumps, with only 3 spins now allowed at both Jr and Sr. I kind of liked how skaters who weren't necessarily great jumpers could still place high if they were strong in other areas (Katrina Hacker), but then you wonder if that really encourages skaters to push the envelope technically. But now I worry that the jumps have increased in importance (particularly with the overzealous downgrading) and we'll have the theoretical 'gymnastics on ice'. I guess there's no perfect system.....but I would favor adjusting point values for adult comps, as well as Juv and Int.

That's what makes it so hard to set level playing fields for "adults" as a general class, even at the same basic skill level.I think you just hit the nail on the head. ;) In adult skating, there are many different backgrounds and experience levels, even within the same competitive level. You've got skaters who started at age 5, age 13, during/right after college, age 30, age 50, and everywhere in between. Some skaters who started young took time off during high school and college, some didn't, and some tested when they were younger and some didn't. And some did ISI as kids. Beyond the restrictions based on past testing, there's really nothing that can make everything equal. If you are going to compete in adult comp, you need to be prepared for a wide range of skating ability and experience in your group. As the saying goes, you can only control how you skate.

[Ellyn]

Well the extra 10 secs will give skaters more time for transitions and choreo, to show off their good stroking and edge quality. :twisted:

When I made my new bronze program to fit the new time limit, I guess I had a choice between adding another spin or doing a fuller step sequence. The old program had just barely enough steps to meet the straight line covering half the ice surface requirement. The new one has a complete circle.

And I'm still doing "more" spins because I'm doing two that both have a change of foot and a change of position.

If bronze rules insisted that I could not get credit for two CCoSp, then I'd have to put a step between the two halves of the first spin so they'd count as two separate spins.

[Debbie S]

If bronze rules insisted that I could not get credit for two CCoSp, then I'd have to put a step between the two halves of the first spin so they'd count as two separate spins.Check on that. My understanding is that "different nature" with respect to spins refers to abbreviations in IJS code, even for levels not judged under IJS. I remember there was discussion here at the time that rule was changed and the affect on my program was that I could no longer do both a forward scratch and a back scratch as separate spins b/c they would both be considered uprights (UpSp), one with a backward entrance, but that would not change the basic nature of the spin.

[Skittl1321]

Check on that. My understanding is that "different nature" with respect to spins refers to abbreviations in IJS code, even for levels not judged under IJS. I remember there was discussion here at the time that rule was changed and the affect on my program was that I could no longer do both a forward scratch and a back scratch as separate spins b/c they would both be considered uprights (UpSp), one with a backward entrance, but that would not change the basic nature of the spin.

Uh... (speaking as someone who isn't quite bronze yet, so I have no idea) but is it really expected that a bronze skater has enough spins in their repetoire to not need to do both a scratch and a back-scratch as seperate spins? (My other spin being sit. And I can kind of change among the 3.)

Cause if so, uh, crap. (Yeah, I know I'll never win, but I kind of wanted to be able to skate)

[doubletoe]

I do think MusicSkateFan has a point.

The flexibility part of the IJS rules regarding both spins and spirals give a huge advantage to certain skaters who have natural flexibility. FTR, I don't like this in standard/elite skating either, but I see it impacting adults far more than the elites or kids.

Also, the points that can be gained in spiral sequences and spins are out of whack as compared to jumps, because the system was created for elite skaters who are doing triples and quads, not for us. I'd like to see much lower base values for those elements to make them compatible for people doing doubles and singles.

We had a meeting several years ago at Mids where we talked about developing a point system for adults, but apparently it didn't go anywhere. Too bad.

It's true that those who are naturally flexible have a big advantage in spins and spirals. It is also true that those who are naturally athletic/strong have a big advantage in jumps, so I could make an argument that jumps should be worth less. I actually think spins, spirals and step sequences have the values they have because they take up a lot of time in the program, especially when done with level-raising features.

I think the point is to allow people to gain points doing what they do best. And I can attest to the fact that you do not need to be naturally flexible to get the levels on spirals and spins; you can work on flexibility just like you work on footwork or jumps. You and I are the same age and I did the splits for the first time in my life less than 3 years ago. It took two years of regular, diligent stretching, almost every day. If I spend 3 hours per week for 2 years doing stretches, shouldn't I be rewarded with the same point-earning opportunities as someone who spent that same amount of time working on jumps?


Two lower back operations have made catch foot spins an impossibility. Staying in shape and skating with speed makes jumping far more feasable.

Well, for some skaters, back, knee or hip operations may have made axels an impossibility. So how about we all put our harpoons away?

[Debbie S]

Uh... (speaking as someone who isn't quite bronze yet, so I have no idea) but is it really expected that a bronze skater has enough spins in their repetoire to not need to do both a scratch and a back-scratch as seperate spins? I believe so. But I haven't competed in a couple of years, so that might have changed, or I could be wrong. I don't have a camel spin, either. I could do a forward scratch (UpSp), a sit (SSp), and then a sit-change sit (CSSp) or sit-change sit-back scratch (CCoSp), or (forward) sit-scratch (CoSp). And you don't have to do 3 spins - that's a max not a min, plenty of Bronze skaters do just 2.

If I were to resurrect my last program - which was used during the 3-spin era, then the 2-spin era, and then once after Bronze went back to 3 spins but I just kept it at 2 - I would either do the sit-change sit-back scratch and then forward scratch or, if I was feeling ambitious enough to add the back scratch in at the beginning, I'd do that, then the change-foot combo, and then a sit-forward scratch combo (no change of foot) at the end.

It can be done. :)

[Skittl1321]

I believe so. But I haven't competed in a couple of years, so that might have changed, or I could be wrong. I don't have a camel spin, either. I could do a forward scratch (UpSp), a sit (SSp), and then a sit-change sit (CSSp) or sit-change sit-back scratch (CCoSp), or (forward) sit-scratch (CoSp). And you don't have to do 3 spins - that's a max not a min, plenty of Bronze skaters do just 2.

That's so frustrating. If IJS rules should apply, don't say it's 6.0.

And I know I don't HAVE to do 3 spins, but spinning is the reason I skate. Sure, the fact that I can only do very few spins doesn't make it sound like I'm a good spinner, but man you should see my jumps :( (my test program has most of my jumps from neat footwork- in an effort to play "hide the jump" and hope they appreciate the attempt at difficulty. Telegraphing them halfway across the ice doesn't get them any higher) I greatly appreciate that 10 seconds, because it means I get to do more footwork.

I guess I need to start working on my back sit (it's not going well) if I want anything interesting to happen with my spins.

[daisies]

That's so frustrating. If IJS rules should apply, don't say it's 6.0.
It's not just an IJS rule; I think people call it that because it's easier to explain "spins of a different nature" as "IJS codes." But "spins of a different nature" means the same thing whether it's IJS or 6.0.

Uh... (speaking as someone who isn't quite bronze yet, so I have no idea) but is it really expected that a bronze skater has enough spins in their repetoire to not need to do both a scratch and a back-scratch as seperate spins?
You could do either the forward or back scratch as one, which would be an upright spin with no change of foot (USp), and then do a forward-TO-back scratch, which would be an upright spin with change of foot (CUSp). Voila, two spins of a different nature! And then there's also the forward sit that is required to pass the Bronze FS test, so that's three. :)

[vesperholly]

It's true that those who are naturally flexible have a big advantage in spins and spirals. It is also true that those who are naturally athletic/strong have a big advantage in jumps, so I could make an argument that jumps should be worth less.
This is neither here nor there, but flexibility is much more inherently natural than athleticism. Muscle strength can attained through off-ice workouts, but the degree of one's open hips and bendy back is granted by birth.

*moment of silence for future posters proclaiming how their hips are facing inward but with 23 years of dedicated stretching, they can now do inside spread eagles ;) *

[Ellyn]

OK, so right now my planned spins are

camel/upright - forward upright in the opposite direction

layback - back sit (which does not sit low enough, it would be an "intermediate position" under IJS)

If I can't get credit for both those CCoSp (which are completely different skills), my choices would be either

put a step between the counterclockwise upright after the camel and the clockwise upright, so they would count as CoSp and USp.

or

Don't even pretend to sit in the backspin of the second combination, just do a funky back upright position, and have that spin count as CUSp.

[jazzpants]

So glad I'm NOT competing this year. Just too many floating parts going around. 8O 8O 8O

I've had in my last program this...

Spins: sit, backspin, scratch spin
Jumps: sal, loop, lutz-toeloop, flip
Footwork: straight line (and it was just a stumble of a footwork too... :oops:)
One spiral (just a plain vanilla one. My old primary coach did not want to put in a catch foot, since it's not already high yet.)

I am actually screwed both in the flexibility and in the jumps! :frus: But if I were to say which one I have a better chance at, I would have to say the flexibility for me since I am doing something about it and I have much better flexibility than a few years ago. :bow: (Still SUCKY but HEY! Considering that there was a time I couldn't even get hip level spirals...better than nuttin'!!! :bow: ) The jumps are better too but I doubt I'll ever get the rotation to do an axel (and my personal trainer has worked me on jump rotations exercises off ice and I can't seem to get the air rotation to do the axel or any double jumps.

I'm with doubletoe: Let's put the harpoons away! There IS a way to calmly discuss this w/o resorting to flaunting the hardware....

*moment of silence for future posters proclaiming how their hips are facing inward but with 23 years of dedicated stretching, they can now do inside spread eagles ;) *Thanks! I needed that one!!! :lol:

[sk8er1964]

If I spend 3 hours per week for 2 years doing stretches, shouldn't I be rewarded with the same point-earning opportunities as someone who spent that same amount of time working on jumps?

Yes - and the way it is right now, you are not. You are being rewarded far, far more. A L4 spiral sequence value is only .1 less than a double axel, an element that even a majority of masters level skaters will never have.

Knocking the points down to something more reasonable would level the playing field, IMO. Making a L4 spiral sequence worth the same as a double toe loop or a double loop instead, for example, would do so. Those are both elements that are acheivable by adults who skate under the IJS.

Of course, I would make all spiral sequences worth way less than footwork sequences - across all levels including elite - but that is my own personal bias because I think footwork is both far more difficult and far more impressive than spirals. I've never understood the importance being placed on them by the ISU.

[RachelSk8er]

OK, so right now my planned spins are

camel/upright - forward upright in the opposite direction

layback - back sit (which does not sit low enough, it would be an "intermediate position" under IJS)

If I can't get credit for both those CCoSp (which are completely different skills), my choices would be either

put a step between the counterclockwise upright after the camel and the clockwise upright, so they would count as CoSp and USp.

or

Don't even pretend to sit in the backspin of the second combination, just do a funky back upright position, and have that spin count as CUSp.

I think it's a little more acceptable at bronze if you don't *quite* have 3 spins of a different nature. All you need to pass the test is a scratch, a back spin, and a sit spin, so what are you supposed to do if you just have what you need to pass the test?

I worked with one of the bronze skaters on my rink at putting her program together last year. I think what we ended up putting in her program was a back scratch-forward scratch to count as her change of foot (she couldn't do the other way around since she could only do the back scratch from a standstill), a sit spin and a layback (which as not laid back very far). She didn't have a camel spin, so a camel-sit was out. She just barely passed her bronze free because her back spin wasn't strong, there was no way she was going to get a back sit to make another combination. I don't know IJS codes well enough to know if the layback and sit are of a different nature or not.

Of course, I would make all spiral sequences worth way less than footwork sequences - across all levels including elite - but that is my own personal bias because I think footwork is both far more difficult and far more impressive than spirals. I've never understood the importance being placed on them by the ISU.

That's why both of the judges in my area who are involved with my club and regularly judge adults have both told me to always do the step sequence at levels that allow you to choose one or the other. Gorgeous spirals are not hard if you are naturally flexible. Strong step sequences take a lot more work. Given two skaters who are equal other than the fact that one did a spiral sequence with crazy positions and the other did a step sequence that was good for their level, they'll put the person with the step sequence over the person with the spiral sequence. (This obviously is under 6.0, not IJS.)

[Debbie S]

But "spins of a different nature" means the same thing whether it's IJS or 6.0.Several years ago, before IJS was implemented in adult comp, I'm quite certain that "back" and "forward" versions of the same position (upright, sit, camel) were considered "different" in nature - I'm pretty sure I read that in the rulebook, but I no longer have an older rulebook to check. But when IJS was implemented and the WBP were changed, "different nature" became defined by IJS codes - ex: same position, change of position, change of foot. So forward scratch and back scratch became the same spin due to position, and the entrance/direction became a level feature.

Btw, what happened to the WBP for Pre-Bronze? I looked at the doc on the USFSA website and it stops with Bronze - PB may not be at AN but it is still a competitive adult level in the rulebook and did have WBP a few years ago. :??

[doubletoe]

Yes - and the way it is right now, you are not. You are being rewarded far, far more. A L4 spiral sequence value is only .1 less than a double axel, an element that even a majority of masters level skaters will never have.

Knocking the points down to something more reasonable would level the playing field, IMO. Making a L4 spiral sequence worth the same as a double toe loop or a double loop instead, for example, would do so. Those are both elements that are acheivable by adults who skate under the IJS.

Of course, I would make all spiral sequences worth way less than footwork sequences - across all levels including elite - but that is my own personal bias because I think footwork is both far more difficult and far more impressive than spirals. I've never understood the importance being placed on them by the ISU.

I agree that the step sequences are more difficult for most people, so I think it was fair that they are now worth more than the equivalent spiral sequence levels. On the other hand, take a look at the IJS scoresheets from the Grand Prix events. There are considerably fewer SpSq4's than 2A's among the best skaters in the world. You'll see fewer at AN this year, too, because they have made it harder.

[daisies]

But when IJS was implemented and the WBP were changed, "different nature" became defined by IJS codes.
That's my point. Skating evolved and the definition changed, but it's not an IJS-only rule. It's *the* rule. Your OP said, "If IJS rules should apply, don't say it's 6.0," and I was saying it's not "IJS rules," it's also "6.0 rules." Hope that makes sense! :)

[techskater]

I am not the most flexible person in the world when it comes to being bendy, grabbing my foot, and contorting my body, however, under IJS there are many ways to gain your points in spins without doing those things. For example, I got a L2 on my CCoSp last year WITHOUT pulling a foot up to my head or contorting like a pretzel. It requires diligence in determining WHAT is rewarded to gain levels that may be achievable for you and working on that. FWIW, I am shooting for a L3 this year on the CCoSp and again I am not grabbing or tearing anything nor do I look like a pretzel.

[Debbie S]

That's my point. Skating evolved and the definition changed, but it's not an IJS-only rule. It's *the* rule. Your OP said, "If IJS rules should apply, don't say it's 6.0," and I was saying it's not "IJS rules," it's also "6.0 rules." Hope that makes sense! :)Oh, OK, I see what you're saying. I'm not sure if Skittl meant this, but I too have a beef with that definition change b/c why use IJS terminology to govern 6.0 events? I guess it would be confusing for judges to keep the differences straight between events with diff judging systems, so I understand the rationale for the change, but I still dislike it, but oh well, it is what it is.

[RachelSk8er]

I am not the most flexible person in the world when it comes to being bendy, grabbing my foot, and contorting my body, however, under IJS there are many ways to gain your points in spins without doing those things. For example, I got a L2 on my CCoSp last year WITHOUT pulling a foot up to my head or contorting like a pretzel. It requires diligence in determining WHAT is rewarded to gain levels that may be achievable for you and working on that. FWIW, I am shooting for a L3 this year on the CCoSp and again I am not grabbing or tearing anything nor do I look like a pretzel.

Do you think you place better under IJS versus 6.0 because of that? (I've seen you skate but haven't paid a ton of attention to placements all the time and who in gold places where under one system versus the other and I realize other factors, like how you skate on a given day, are involved too). Obviously the spins you are doing aren't easy because they have all kinds of edge changes and they get rewarded if you nail them under IJS, and I think a lot of us less flexible people have been watching and taking notes. But do you think under 6.0 a judge looks at that versus someone who can stick their left toepick in their right ear during a spin and automatically thinks that the person contorting themselves (but staying on the same edge) is doing something harder?

I think with regard to levels still under 6.0, judges overall seem a little inconsistent when it comes to switching back and forth. Judges who judge under both systems have more of an IJS mentality when judging under 6.0, judges who have been around a long time and don't have a ton of experience with IJS (and/or hate it) and stick to old school 6.0-thinking. Has anyone else noticed this? So when you're a skater and have to compete under 6.0 most of the year until ANs, what do you do? Go old school 6.0 thinking and try the double you probably won't land for the sake of trying it and hope for some type of reward for being gutsy, or play it smart as you would under IJS all year? I was coaching synchro when many levels there switched to IJS and coaches were told there that even if a team is under 6.0, treat them as if they were competing IJS with regard to choreography. The same thing went on there, it was really frustrating because there were so many mixed messages from judges (suddenly things that had always been considered "hard" mainly because they looked cool were not worth much under IJS and judges didn't know what to do with those things under 6.0).

[Skittl1321]

I was coaching synchro when many levels there switched to IJS and coaches were told there that even if a team is under 6.0, treat them as if they were competing IJS with regard to choreography. The same thing went on there.

Although I don't compete, this seems to be the attitude that most coaches in our area have for their kids programs. I'm not sure it's still known what makes a good 6.0 program, so they just make a good IJS program- knowing judges are used to looking at features.

It's kind of a like adult tests. In our area no coach has any idea what the adult passing standard is supposed to look like, so they all assume the judges don't have an idea either. If it won't pass standard track, it's not ready to be put out. Then they assume adults are given a tiny bit of leniency. But there is no concrete idea of what is expected.

[Stormy]

I am not the most flexible person in the world when it comes to being bendy, grabbing my foot, and contorting my body, however, under IJS there are many ways to gain your points in spins without doing those things. For example, I got a L2 on my CCoSp last year WITHOUT pulling a foot up to my head or contorting like a pretzel. It requires diligence in determining WHAT is rewarded to gain levels that may be achievable for you and working on that. FWIW, I am shooting for a L3 this year on the CCoSp and again I am not grabbing or tearing anything nor do I look like a pretzel.

This is true. Two of my spins are L2 if I do them correctly and neither involve any contortion.....just a lot of revolutions. :) My last plain camel spin is only a L1, but if I get + GOE on it, all the better. I might not have the fancier tricks and the L3 spirals, but I'm really aiming to skate a strong, fast, clean program with + GOE on the jumps. It's defintiely about working with what you have an maximizing the advantages you can take.

[RachelSk8er]

Although I don't compete, this seems to be the attitude that most coaches in our area have for their kids programs. I'm not sure it's still known what makes a good 6.0 program, so they just make a good IJS program- knowing judges are used to looking at features.


I see where this comes in at intermediate and above, but don't really think there is a whole lot of difference at the lower levels. My coach treats all programs like IJS programs. I do my own choreography and don't really think IJS v. 6.0, I think about what's comfortable and what maximizes my strengths, and I wanted to make a program that (if I move up next year) will easily transition to a gold program without having to re-choreograph what I already have. (I did the same in '07 when I was bronze but knew I'd be moving up to silver for '08). When my coach went through it, he didn't make any changes, he mainly helped improve a few transitions or connecting steps where I was having trouble coming up with something on my own. Granted my step sequence is NOT an IJS step sequence, it's a sequence I put together that is strong for silver under 6.0, but I can just as easily plug an IJS one in there. But the program is designed to have a spiral sequence as well when I move up to gold and add a chunk of music, and that's what I'd probably have count and the step sequence would just be a transition to boost PCS. And obviously things like COEs on my spins can be added, jumps swapped, but the structure of the program itself won't change.

[Skittl1321]

I see where this comes in at intermediate and above, but don't really think there is a whole lot of difference at the lower levels.

I don't know, my experience is with very low levels. I'd like to think that if coaches weren't trying to plug in features they see from high level IJS skaters, thinking that's what judges are looking for, they'd be having their kids do really nice long scratch and sit spins that show mastery of the spins rather than attempting 4 different positions in a sit spin, when the kid can barely hold each one for 2 full revolutions.

Or maybe it's the particular coach.

[Ellyn]

Although I don't compete, this seems to be the attitude that most coaches in our area have for their kids programs. I'm not sure it's still known what makes a good 6.0 program, so they just make a good IJS program- knowing judges are used to looking at features.

Except under IJS it's really not the job of the judges to reward the features -- it's the job of the technical panel. Some judges are also technical controllers now, but most aren't.

In IJS, the judges just have to worry about the quality of an element instead of also having to keep track of how hard it was as they do under 6.0.

I don't know, my experience is with very low levels. I'd like to think that if coaches weren't trying to plug in features they see from high level IJS skaters, thinking that's what judges are looking for, they'd be having their kids do really nice long scratch and sit spins that show mastery of the spins rather than attempting 4 different positions in a sit spin, when the kid can barely hold each one for 2 full revolutions.

Maybe the kids can't actually hold a position for several revolutions -- the only way they can keep the spin going is to keep changing positions.

Or maybe the coaches just think that the kids need to start working on these skills now so that they will have mastered them by the time they get to juvenile or intermediate. Same as with putting out cheated double jumps in preliminary and prejuvenile. They'd get more points under IJS by doing clean singles, but trying the doubles gives them practice including them in a program so they're used to including them by the time they can actually rotate the jumps.

Or maybe it's the particular coach.

Could be.

[doubletoe]

I am not the most flexible person in the world when it comes to being bendy, grabbing my foot, and contorting my body, however, under IJS there are many ways to gain your points in spins without doing those things. For example, I got a L2 on my CCoSp last year WITHOUT pulling a foot up to my head or contorting like a pretzel. It requires diligence in determining WHAT is rewarded to gain levels that may be achievable for you and working on that. FWIW, I am shooting for a L3 this year on the CCoSp and again I am not grabbing or tearing anything nor do I look like a pretzel.

You go, girl! (and Stormy, too!) IJS is designed to reward edge control, strength and balance, not just flexibility. You can actually get the maximum possible value on a spin (Level 4 on a CCoSp) without doing any difficult variations of position! It is also possible to get a level 3 on a spiral sequence without a catch foot, Y/I spiral, split or charlotte position.

[daisies]

Btw, what happened to the WBP for Pre-Bronze? I looked at the doc on the USFSA website and it stops with Bronze - PB may not be at AN but it is still a competitive adult level in the rulebook and did have WBP a few years ago. :??
I meant to answer this part before, but I forgot! It's here:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/Adult%20Pre-Bronze%20WBP%20Chart.pdf

If you lose this link in the future, you can go to the main News and Information page for Adults (http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=112) and scroll down to "Summary Sheets For Well-Balanced Programs." It lists Singles (Masters-Bronze), Pairs, Dance and Pre-Bronze.

[techskater]

You go, girl! (and Stormy, too!) IJS is designed to reward edge control, strength and balance, not just flexibility. You can actually get the maximum possible value on a spin (Level 4 on a CCoSp) without doing any difficult variations of position! It is also possible to get a level 3 on a spiral sequence without a catch foot, Y/I spiral, split or charlotte position.

LOL! I say the same thing about stinking things in my ear all the time!

I think skating equally well gets you equally rewarded, to answer Rachel's question. Not flexible? Do what you do well and strong and it gets rewarded. It is much easier to set a program for your end goal than to change from outing to outing and try to remember WHICH program you are skating this time.

This is one of the things that hurts skaters like Johnny Weir -- they change things around and make more mistakes because it's not ingrained.

[LilJen]

Uh... (speaking as someone who isn't quite bronze yet, so I have no idea) but is it really expected that a bronze skater has enough spins in their repetoire to not need to do both a scratch and a back-scratch as seperate spins? (My other spin being sit. And I can kind of change among the 3.)

Cause if so, uh, crap. (Yeah, I know I'll never win, but I kind of wanted to be able to skate)

Yep, the WBP requirements state that your "up to 3 spins" must be "of a different nature." Could you do a change-foot upright spin? If you have your back scratch, that should count (1 upright same foot, 1 change-foot upright, 1 sit). I have two different spins in my 'will-be-bronze-at-some-point" program--one is plain vanilla forward scratch, and the other is a change foot (fwd-back-fwd--because it works for ISI3 as well). Don't forget the lowly 2-footed spin as well--it's an option!

ETA: I see several people have already addressed this. And yes, it's not IJS--it's the well-balanced program requirements that dictate the spins. People often confuse IJS and WBP, but they are two different things. WBP started developing long before IJS to put skaters on a more level playing field (ie, you can/must have only so many jumps, so many spins, so many spirals or footwork sequences).

[RachelSk8er]

Yep, the WBP requirements state that your "up to 3 spins" must be "of a different nature." Could you do a change-foot upright spin? If you have your back scratch, that should count (1 upright same foot, 1 change-foot upright, 1 sit). I have two different spins in my 'will-be-bronze-at-some-point" program--one is plain vanilla forward scratch, and the other is a change foot (fwd-back-fwd--because it works for ISI3 as well). Don't forget the lowly 2-footed spin as well--it's an option!

Just a suggestion, too. If you have a weak back scratch that you can only do from a standstill (or close to a standstill), which tends to be typical for a lot of bronze skaters, try doing the combo as a back scratch-forward scratch. "Technically" that's considered harder and very few people do it this way, but some people find it easier becauase they can get into the back scratch from a speed they are comfortable with, hit enough revs, and then easily step into a forward scratch. I think the transition between the two spins is a lot easier than the forward-back transition.

[Skittl1321]

Yep, the WBP requirements state that your "up to 3 spins" must be "of a different nature." Could you do a change-foot upright spin? If you have your back scratch, that should count (1 upright same foot, 1 change-foot upright, 1 sit). I have two different spins in my 'will-be-bronze-at-some-point" program--one is plain vanilla forward scratch, and the other is a change foot (fwd-back-fwd--because it works for ISI3 as well). Don't forget the lowly 2-footed spin as well--it's an option!

ETA: I see several people have already addressed this. And yes, it's not IJS--it's the well-balanced program requirements that dictate the spins. People often confuse IJS and WBP, but they are two different things. WBP started developing long before IJS to put skaters on a more level playing field (ie, you can/must have only so many jumps, so many spins, so many spirals or footwork sequences).

I think my annoyance is that the WBP USED to be that forward and backward were of different nature - when the spins were determined with IJS codes, they became the same spin. Yes, I know that it's not an only-IJS rule anymore, but it's based from that. I just really think at such a low level, it's incredibly restricting to not be able to do 2 upright spins.

On a really good day I can do a change foot spin okay, on a good day I can do a really crappy one, that results in spinning, but ugly positions, but my spins have to be at like a third of the speed if I weren't changing feet. I used it in an ISI competition over a year ago, but it is in no way ready for a bronze level competition. If I were to compete today (hah) I'd have to do upright, sit, and then sit-upright. (But I really hate having to rely on my sit spin, it's not low enough -so it's possible a judge would choose not to count it at all- and it hurts my knees really badly)

I also think its really odd that the test doesn't prepare you for the requirements of the level- a change-position or a change-foot is needed to fill out the WBP if you want all 3 spins, but the 3 spins in the TEST program won't fit that need. I know tests don't prepare you to be competitive (you need all your singles in Bronze, for example) but they should prepare you to meet the needs of the program. The test program, with a stand alone scratch spin, and a stand alone backspin, wouldn't even be allowed in competition (or at least have all elements count- is there a deduction in 6.0 for the extra elements or do they just garner no points?)

[Isk8NYC]

A Technical Notification went out yesterday from the USFSA regarding a correction in the 3791 Adult Silver Well-Balanced Free Skate Requirements.


DATED: December 17, 2009
Re: Correction regarding Adult Silver Free Skate
The jump combination/jump sequence requirement in Rule 3791: Adult Silver
Well-Balanced Free Skate Requirements contains a typographical error.
The rule should read as follows (change is underlined):
3791 The Adult Silver Well-Balanced Free Skate Must Contain:
Jumps & Jump Combinations: A maximum of five different single jump
elements, which may include an Axel jump. Jumps may be repeated only
once and only in combination and/or sequences. There must be at least
one jump combination or sequence, but there may be up to three jump
combinations or sequences. Each jump combination and/or sequence
counts as one jump element. The number of jumps in a combination or
sequence is limited. One jump combination could consist of three jumps,
and the other two up to two jumps. Additional jump sequences which
contain jumps of not more than one revolution (i.e. mazurkas, half loops,
etc.) performed as part of connecting footwork preceding single jumps are
permitted. Only single jumps and Axels are allowed. No double or triple
jumps are permitted.

These requirements are listed correctly in the element chart online and in the
2010 U.S. Figure Skating Rulebook (page 250). This information is also listed
correctly in the U.S. Adult Figure Skating Championships announcement.


LINK: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/Technical_Notification_57.pdf

[doubletoe]

I think my annoyance is that the WBP USED to be that forward and backward were of different nature - when the spins were determined with IJS codes, they became the same spin. Yes, I know that it's not an only-IJS rule anymore, but it's based from that. I just really think at such a low level, it's incredibly restricting to not be able to do 2 upright spins.

On a really good day I can do a change foot spin okay, on a good day I can do a really crappy one, that results in spinning, but ugly positions, but my spins have to be at like a third of the speed if I weren't changing feet. I used it in an ISI competition over a year ago, but it is in no way ready for a bronze level competition. If I were to compete today (hah) I'd have to do upright, sit, and then sit-upright. (But I really hate having to rely on my sit spin, it's not low enough -so it's possible a judge would choose not to count it at all- and it hurts my knees really badly)

I also think its really odd that the test doesn't prepare you for the requirements of the level- a change-position or a change-foot is needed to fill out the WBP if you want all 3 spins, but the 3 spins in the TEST program won't fit that need. I know tests don't prepare you to be competitive (you need all your singles in Bronze, for example) but they should prepare you to meet the needs of the program. The test program, with a stand alone scratch spin, and a stand alone backspin, wouldn't even be allowed in competition (or at least have all elements count- is there a deduction in 6.0 for the extra elements or do they just garner no points?)

Honestly, I think that 3 spins is too many for a Bronze program, both in terms of the program length and in terms of the number of different types of spins skaters can be expected to do at that level. For a little perspective, remember that 3 spins is the maximum number allowed in the 4-minute long Senior Ladies freeskate! Since the Bronze freeskate is only 1:50, I think 2 spins is perfectly reasonable. Personally, I would have appreciated only having to do two spins when I was in Bronze. I had two upright spins (one forward, one reverse) and only one of them would have counted under the current spin definitions. Now that I'm in Gold, I still wouldn't mind only having to do 2 spins because I think our programs are still too packed. The Adult Gold program is 1:30 less than the Senior Ladies' LP but we have the same number of spins and only one jump fewer. Although we only have to do one step or spiral sequence instead of two, that's only a difference of 25-30 seconds so they've still got a minute more to play with than we do. There's hardly time to cram all of the elements into 2:40, much less express the music!

[daisies]

Honestly, I think that 3 spins is too many for a Bronze program, both in terms of the program length and in terms of the number of different types of spins skaters can be expected to do at that level.
That's why it's a maximum with no minimum. You can do two and not be penalized. And it's not IJS, so there's no lost potential for points. In 6.0 it's about the overall impression of a program, so if a skater feels more comfortable doing two spins and a third spin would be crappy anyway, it's much better to do only two spins.

The Adult Gold program is 1:30 less than the Senior Ladies' LP but we have the same number of spins and only one jump fewer. Although we only have to do one step or spiral sequence instead of two, that's only a difference of 25-30 seconds so they've still got a minute more to play with than we do. There's hardly time to cram all of the elements into 2:40, much less express the music!
Standard-track Intermediates have to do the same number of jumps, spins and steps in the same amount of time as Adult Gold. Standard-track Juveniles have to do the same number of spins, jumps and steps as Adult Gold but with at least 15 seconds less!