re-defining jump limits for adults? [Archive]

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phoenix

12-09-2009, 03:51 PM

I'll probably have a 2toe either at the same time, if not before the axel. I was starting to try 2sals before I was sidelined d/t injury, and have yet to attempt a 2flip. I still feel like it could be my first double, but there is no point in even really trying until I have at least a 2toe because of the jump limits in the adult competition level structure (can't do a 2flip until junior/senior). And really a 2toe does me no good since I can't move up without my axel clean.

I wish they'd change the rule to the number of types of doubles you can do instead of the specific jumps at each level (and just not allow 2axels until junior/senior). I know a few other adults who are closer on 2loops/flips than 2toes/sals, too.

I'm quoting RachelSk8er from another thread, but thought this might be worth discussing. I'm not in that high FS world, but to me it seems to be a valid point.

Thoughts/comments/discussion?

RachelSk8er

12-09-2009, 04:17 PM

Here's more specifics on my thoughts.

--2lutzes/2axels/triples ONLY at junior/senior (so basically no limitations on jumps for junior/senior)

For lower levels:

Gold currently allows 2toe/2sal, I'd change it to 2 types of doubles from 2toe/2sal/2loop/2flip

Intermediate allows 2toe/2sal/2loop, I'd allow 3 jumps from 2toe/2sal/2loop/2flip

I guess you run into issues with IJS and I don't know differences in point values off hand for a jump like a 2toe versus a 2flip, but perhaps make it so that a 2flip or 2loop at gold isn't worth any more than a 2toe or 2loop (in terms of base value).

The thinking is just that when it comes to doubles and adults in particular, there are all sorts of quirks. I know people whose strongest doubles or the ones that come easiest may be a 2loop or 2flip before a 2toe or 2 sal. (I was actually like that as a kid, the first double I started working on was a 2flip because it was easy for me to launch a flip in the air back then and I hated edge jumps, but then I quit freestyle for a looooong time and I'm back to struggling with a clean axel).

I also realize this doesn't help a whole lot in terms of the current test structure...but I'm just talking in terms of competing.

coskater64

12-09-2009, 05:02 PM

Jumps:

Gold: axel, singles
requirements for gold fs comp program, match test reqs for Int fs. This encourages moving up through the structure.

Int: axel, 2sal/2toe (one or other), single/double,double/single combo, can do double/double if you want.

Nov: 2sal, 2toe, 2loop, 2/2 combo

Shockingly the limits for int/nov are the same as the Nov FS, encouraging skaters to take their nov fs. Then they can move up to Jr FS.

Jr. FS: axel, 2 sal, 2 toe, 2 loop, 2 flip, 2/2 combo also 1 rev to 2 jump sequence.

Sr. FS: 2 sal, 2 toe, 2 loop, 2 flip, 2 lutz, 2/2 combo (2)

There is a logical and simple progression to the jump limits, it matches the test structure.

techskater

12-09-2009, 05:29 PM

Agreed with coskater that it follows the test structure, BUT it would be NICE to be able to work in a program on ones that I CAN do better. It does encourage move ups. :D

doubletoe

12-09-2009, 07:16 PM

It's true that some adults have better double loops than double toes and some have better double sals or double toes than axels. However, this is also the case with the kids (i.e, standard track skaters). I know plenty of kids who landed their double sals before their axels and I even know some whose first doubles were double loops or double flips, not double sals or double toes. Since this phenomenon is not age-related, I think they would need to change the test/competition requirements across the board if they decided to make those changes.
Also, as others have pointed out, allowing double loops and double flips in Gold would allow skaters with the more difficult doubles to stay in Gold instead of moving up, and the higher point values for those jumps would give them an advantage under IJS and encourage them to stay and medal in Gold every year instead of moving up. This would result in lots of disgruntled Gold skaters accusing the medalists of sandbagging, which is exactly what the USFSA was trying to prevent by adding the Championship Intermediate-Novice level and forbidding double loops in Adult Gold. And I don't think it's very likely that USFSA would change jump point values just for adults, especially when we're talking about double jumps, which don't fall under the category of adult beginner elements.

daisies

12-09-2009, 07:32 PM

What doubletoe said!

AxelBaby

12-10-2009, 09:37 AM

I would just like to weigh in and give my two cents. (And I never post here, but feel strongly about this issue). I understand the REASON for the limits. But honestly, I hate it.

I am going to have a clean triple loop and triple flip before I have a consistent double toe or double salchow. I absolutely despise those jumps.

And yes, I do understand the reason for the progression of jumps and that you need to have all of your jumps solid and clean, rather than just having one strong jump.

But I also have to say that I don't think that it would require a change in the standard track. I have a hard time with the debate (not on this forum, but in general) where everyone insists that the closer the adult track resembles standard, the better it is for adults. Some advocates preach this theory but then at competitions, especially in an artistic category, the most ridiculous "themed" or corny program with little to no skating wins. Whats the point? I can't even begin to count how many times I have seen someone dress up in some ridiculous outfit, gone out there and basically made a mockery out of adult skating and taken the podium spots. It is hard to see that happen and then hear about how we can only do certain skills in a certain level program.

I'm sure most people wont agree with me. But it is just my thoughts on the issue.

sk8er1964

12-10-2009, 01:59 PM