Lack of Turn Out

[dance2sk8]

Ok, so I read some people don't have much of a turn out. Neither do I!!! I was born with my hips turned completely in (so my feet were turned inward severely) and had to have casts on my legs when I was 2 until 3 to somewhat correct the problem. I started taking ballet in my 20's. Only a couple of years and now am taking it regularly to enhance my skating and I will admit, its totally helped me. I still lack turn out (best I have is at a 90 degree angle in first position). I used to tell my coach that because of my lack of turn out, I couldn't do mohawks correctly or choctaws(sp?). But she said that's hog wash. For those of you out there that truly feel your lack of turn out is inhibiting you from doing moves such as these, there is hope!!! I am now able to do the mohawks a lot smoother and am working on some other moves. Its all about how you transition from blade to blade, your body positioning, and keeping those darn knees bent between transitions! (for the mohawk). My coach taught me that lack of turn out doesn't effect the ability to learn MITF such as a mohawk even though they are more difficult to pick up. Its taken a LOT of work to get to where I am. (but who am I kidding, I am an addict to skating and challenges and spend tons of time at the rink) I am hoping down the road that I will be able to do a bauer. We shall see. Be hopeful and positive!! :lol:

[Skittl1321]

Glad to hear you are making progress. I have no turn out to speak of for ballet type things, but okay turn out for a normal person. I will never do a spread eagle, but maybe a bauer.

Just make sure as you work on it NOT to turn out from the knees. Skating coaches seem to push that more than ballet instructors- and it is bad news.

But even with very little turn out a mohawk should be possible- it's all about the bend! (I also do my mohawks to my instep instead of blade end to blade end... that takes away some need for turn out)

[Clarice]

(I also do my mohawks to my instep instead of blade end to blade end... that takes away some need for turn out)

But that's how mohawks are done - heel to instep. If somebody told you they should be blade end to blade end, they're wrong.

[Pandora]

There's doing a mohawk or chocataws and then there's doing them to judges' standards. These are two very different things......Have you passed tests with these???

[phoenix]

For moves tests, judges aren't wildly picky about the mohawks being perfect....in (very) general terms, moves tests are more about edges, power & quickness than nitpicking every little foot placement.....for that you need to be a dancer! :lol:

And yes, most of us don't have ballerina-type 180 degree turnout. It's totally about bending your knees through the turn which releases your hip flexors more so you can get the feet set. It's also partly an illusion--even choctaws--what *looks* like 180+ turnout is actually far less.

[Skittl1321]

But that's how mohawks are done - heel to instep. If somebody told you they should be blade end to blade end, they're wrong.

I've seen lots of people do them blade to blade. I was always told that doing them to the instep is an "option".


ETA: Hmmm- it's possible those "lots" all have the same coach.

[Kim to the Max]

I've seen lots of people do them blade to blade. I was always told that doing them to the instep is an "option".


ETA: Hmmm- it's possible those "lots" all have the same coach.

Technically, it's supposed to be heel to instep. When teaching mohawks, I will occasionally show them the heel to heel version so that they can see what I'm doing. While it's not correct per say, I find that the concept of changing feet and changing direction is tough for a lot of kids.

[Clarice]

I've seen lots of people do them blade to blade. I was always told that doing them to the instep is an "option".


ETA: Hmmm- it's possible those "lots" all have the same coach.

Here are the instructions from the Basic Skills Instructor's Manual:

"Forward inside open Mohawk from a stand still position, right & left: Stand in a T-position with the future skating arm forward and the future free arm held slightly behind. Step onto a forward inside edge. Prior to the turn, hold the heel of the free foot in a turned out and angular position and move it toward the instep of the skating foot, stepping within the width of the hips. After changing feet, balance on a backward inside edge with the arms and free foot held in a firm position to control rotation and balance. The edge into and out of the Mohawk will each be held for a distance equal to the skater's height."

My dance coach (a former Olympian in dance) also demonstrates them for me heel to instep.

[Pandora]

Open mohawks are pretty doable. It's the closed mohawks that are .....difficult....if you don't have turnout. (At least I think so.)

[Skittl1321]

Thanks everyone for explaining! That makes me very happy, because I've always felt like I was "cheating".


Pandora- could you explain what you mean by open and closed. I've heard the terms, but I'm not sure I understand them.

[Isk8NYC]

Pandora - taking lessons on any and all mohawks would benefit you tremendously.

I always teach the mohawks to the instep, and I usually have the skater bring the free foot forward first. That slight movement from front to instep, turning the toe out, is sufficient.

Skittl's right though - a lot of coaches (usually ones with great spreadeages) tend to teach the heel-to-heel. I think it looks awkward and the skaters really struggle to get that position. It's also dangerous because they can step on the heel of their blades.

[Pandora]

I mean the mohawks where you step behind the foot (not to the inside edge.)
They are nasty, evil things.:twisted: ;)

[Clarice]

Open mohawks are pretty doable. It's the closed mohawks that are .....difficult....if you don't have turnout. (At least I think so.)

Definition of Closed Mohawk from the Rule Book: "A mohawk in which the instep of the free foot is held at the heel of the skating foot until the free foot is placed on the ice behind the heel of the skating foot. Following the weight transfer, the immediate position of the new free foot is in front of the new skating foot."

That seems like instep to heel instead of heel to instep - neither of which requires a terribly great degree of turnout. Anyway, where are closed mohawks required on Adult MIF tests? (This is a serious question - I've passed Gold MIF, but that is the only Adult MIF test I've ever taken since I was already at Silver level when the Adult MIF structure was introduced.)

[Skittl1321]

If they aren't on Gold, they aren't on the Adult MITF tests. I'm working on silver and the mohawk required is the outside mohawk in the 8-step, and that seems to be an open mohawk. On bronze is the inside open mohawk, and there are no mohawks on PB.

[Pandora]

Yes, you are right. It is considered a pretty high level MITF. But I figure why bother wasting my time on the MITF if I can never get to my jump level? (Yes, I know, it will make me a better skater....Not going there.:giveup:) But, yes, you are right. I don't believe it is on any of the adult tests.

[Skittl1321]

So because you don't think you will ever get Junior MITF, you think it is a waste of time to even bother doing any of them?

Even getting to Juvenile (Silver/Gold-ish) MITF will open you up to a much more interesting (jump-wise) level to compete at then as a no-test skater.

Pandora, you should just be thankful figures are no longer required. Now that is tedious and HARD. MITF are at least do-able, and let you skate with SPEED- which if you like jumping should appeal

[Pandora]

Yes, if I am going to compete, (and can't get my event), then you are definitely right.

[phoenix]

I mean the mohawks where you step behind the foot (not to the inside edge.)
They are nasty, evil things.:twisted: ;)

They certainly would be if no one's ever taught you the tips & tricks of how to do them, or the steps leading up to them before you're expected to just go out there & try it & hope for the best.

* Also, I believe what you describe is actually an open mohawk, on outside edges. Closed would be outside edge to outside edge, but the new foot still sets down in front of the skating foot. In moves the first time you encounter that mohawk is at Juvenile, for the 8 step mohawk sequence. The one you're describing, with the foot setting down behind, I don't think you ever get in moves. In dance you hit it at pre-silver in the Foxtrot.

Like this:
8 Step Mohawk Sequence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nu4UKz34fI&feature=related

Instead of this:
Foxtrot (the mohawk happens in the corner at the end of each pattern)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAEunhy-ZFM

[Isk8NYC]

Oh, I thought Pandora was confusing mohawks and choctaws. It sounds like she's describing the Junior Choctaw pattern.
I like choctaws better than closed mohawks. Outside mohawks aren't really scary because of the turnout issue, it's the "can't see where I'm going" part that I find scary.

Closed mohawks are in the Senior MITF Quick Edge pattern (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHMWM16-seM) and some dance patterns. (Nice demo by whoever the skater is in that video.)

In a closed mohawk, the skater steps down behind the skating foot onto the free foot. Once the foot change has been made, the skater's new free foot is held in a closed-hip position in front of the skating foot.

An open mohawk steps down to the instep (inside the tracing circle) and the new free foot extends in an open hip position behind the new skating foot.

[Pandora]

Yes, I was thinking of the foxtrot mohawk. (Though I still think the outside to outside would be nasty for someone with closed hips.)

[Skittl1321]

Yes, I was thinking of the foxtrot mohawk. (Though I still think the outside to outside would be nasty for someone with closed hips.)

Outside to outside sucks. It is my current nemisis, but it's not due to turn out. It's due to my refusal to bend my knees. It doesn't require any more turn out than a regular inside mohawk

[RachelSk8er]

I've never had issues with mohawks. I'm sure big open outside mohawks on some of the dances (Foxtrot, Starlight, Tango) would be easier if I were more flexible but I can do them just fine.

I don't "really" have issues with choctaws either when doing one in footwork or in a dance. I love riding the edges of the choctaw in the Blues. Where I (and most people without a ton of hip flexibility) run into issues is doing consecutive ones, like on the junior moves pattern. I have the most trouble is keeping my hip open enough to do the transition from the FI edge to the next BO edge. This is MUCH easier if you have turnout from the hips don't have to really, really work to keep the free hip open, but it's not impossible for people who don't, you just have to work harder and really focus on the turnout and extension. There are so many other nuances to getting them edgy.

Yes, you are right. It is considered a pretty high level MITF. But I figure why bother wasting my time on the MITF if I can never get to my jump level? (Yes, I know, it will make me a better skater....Not going there.) But, yes, you are right. I don't believe it is on any of the adult tests.

That's like saying "gee I have really strong arms but I'll never be able to golf like Tiger Woods, so why bother trying to learn to play golf at all." Silly.

[mintypoppet]

But even with very little turn out a mohawk should be possible- it's all about the bend!

Ooh, my dance coach hates that - it's his current bugbear with my skating! He requires the Fourteenstep (outside closed) and Willow Waltz (inside closed) mohawks to be done on straight legs, heel to instep, which is hard with poor turnout. Love Foxtrot (outside open) mohawks because I'm allowed to bend my knees. I'm hoping I'll crack the technique one day...

[Ellyn]

Yes, I was thinking of the foxtrot mohawk.

You don't have to worry about it if you're not doing dance tests.

(Though I still think the outside to outside would be nasty for someone with closed hips.)

You don't need to do deep edges on the mohawk in the 8-step pattern as long as you maintain the general shape of the circle. Soft knees, steady rhythm, and decent power can make up for less-turned-out mohawks.

[dance2sk8]

...It's due to my refusal to bend my knees. It doesn't require any more turn out than a regular inside mohawk

The bending the knees part made a HUGE difference in my mohawks! I was constantly "hopping" into it with a straight leg. NOT the way to do it. :P

But once I started doing the move off ice and attempting them the proper way with bent knees on ice, no hopping occurred and a smoother transition. I was really surprised at how much easier it was, too. So, from here on out, bent knees. keeping my upper body still, and just shifting shoulder pressures. :D

Oh, and I find going from FLI to BRI (correct me if I am wrong in describing this) Mohawks so much easier than the other way around. I am slightly more flexible with my left leg. And I can "wing" my foot better with that leg, too, in ballet. Ballet has been a huge factor in body positioning for everything skate related. Its kind of neat how the two can be tied together, even though one is on ice. :D

Also, Pandora, please try to keep the "why bother" comments out of this thread. Thank you. I'd appreciate it. Seems to get people stirred up, including me.

[Pandora]

Sorry, not sure how to phrase it better, but will keep out comments. :giveup:

Have pretty much decided to skate on youtube anyways.....Have very pretty dress.:D Will take moderator's advice and skate for fun. Will post video every year around AN time with my own routine and leave it at that. (Unless I get an open event which is unlikely....:cry:)

Can maybe do routine at exhibitions. No test levels there...:D

[Skate@Delaware]

I was uncomfortable doing mohawks until my coach pointed out, the problem wasn't with my lack of turnout it was the improper position of my arms! She fixed that and they are getting better (as long as I remember to put my arms in the right place LOL).

[ibreakhearts66]

I think if you slowed down and paid attention to the exact foot placement of an inside to inside mohawk the turn is only about 90 degrees. It would seem that turnout shouldn't REALLY affect the beginning mohawks (except in extreme cases like the OPs).

I never really had a problem with the 8-step mohawk and I have poor turnout because of my hip problems. I think I was able to get it so easily by "feeling" the circle behind me and just feeling where I needed to adjust my body weight. FWIW, the PSA MIF Manual expects open, not closed mohawks for that pattern.

It the difference between and open and closed choctaw the same as for a mohawk? Well, first, let me ask, am I getting the general description of a close mohawk correctly? Instead of stepping with the free foot in front with it's heel the instep of the skating foot, the free foot hits the ice more or less behind the the skating foot, with its instep at the current skating foots heel. For a LFO to RBO, would the LFO then stroke off to extend in front of the body? Sorry if I'm totally misunderstanding, I'm just trying to connect it to a step I see one skater do regularly in a dance (not a clue what dance, although I guess it might be the foxtrot since that's what keeps coming up).

So would the difference for an open or closed choctaw be the same? Basically does the foot come down in front of the skating foot or behind? I'm PRETTY sure I'm grasping this, but I want to make sure since Novice requires closed choctaws on the slow rocker/choctaw pattern (which I'm pretty sure I'm doing because of the "stroke" I'm getting as I change feet and the skating foot becomes the free foot) while the quick rocker/choctaw allows either open OR closed.

[Rob Dean]

Oh, and I find going from FLI to BRI (correct me if I am wrong in describing this) Mohawks so much easier than the other way around. I am slightly more flexible with my left leg. And I can "wing" my foot better with that leg, too, in ballet. Ballet has been a huge factor in body positioning for everything skate related. Its kind of neat how the two can be tied together, even though one is on ice.

I should try a little ballet one of these days just to see. I have the opposite mohawk to you as the easy one, and I'd agree that it's mostly technique. I have lots and lots of turnout (a plie is no problem), which is a little unusual in a male of my age...and the hard side mohawks are still a pain. :frus:

[sk8joyful]

Ok,
(best I have is at a 90 degree angle in first position).

For those of you out there that truly feel your lack of turn out is inhibiting you from doing moves such as these, there is hope!!! I am now able to do the mohawks a lot smoother. Its all about how you transition from blade to blade, your body positioning, and keeping those darn knees bent between transitions! (for the mohawk).
I am hoping down the road that I will be able to do a bauer. We shall see. Be hopeful and positive!! :lol:

Hi there,
I love your attitude!! - I'm a beginner, meaning I'm still learning to skate backwards :) BUT my flexability
is such that I find the 180-degree turn-out easy! :D so
I can't wait to skate OSEagles; & advance towards other goals too. I'm with you: 'Be hopeful and positive!! :lol: '

[dance2sk8]

Hi there,
I love your attitude!! - I'm a beginner, meaning I'm still learning to skate backwards :) BUT my flexability
is such that I find the 180-degree turn-out easy! :D so
I can't wait to skate OSEagles; & advance towards other goals too. I'm with you: 'Be hopeful and positive!! :lol: '

Attitude makes all the difference! :D I had a negative attitude about backspins for a while, but last weekend, I decided to be positive and upbeat, attempting to not be as nervous about it and voila!!! I got my back spin. Its amazing how that can effect your skating.

I just love to skate! :lol:

[Mrs Redboots]

Foxtrot Mohawk is okay - even I can fudge one, and I'm as closed-hipped as they make them. The secret is to use your edges to bring your foot to the right place, rather like when doing back crossrolls - if you can do a back crossroll, you can do a Foxtrot Mohawk.

[dance2sk8]

Foxtrot Mohawk is okay - even I can fudge one, and I'm as closed-hipped as they make them. The secret is to use your edges to bring your foot to the right place, rather like when doing back crossrolls - if you can do a back crossroll, you can do a Foxtrot Mohawk.

Yes, I can do back cross rolls. :D So, what's a Foxtrot Mohawk then? I've only started ice dancing to enhance my freestyle.

[Skittl1321]

Yes, I can do back cross rolls. :D So, what's a Foxtrot Mohawk then? I've only started ice dancing to enhance my freestyle.

The mohawk is in the Rocker Foxtrot- a silver dance. (So I should get to it by the time I'm 60, and you'll probably be to it next month...)

It looks like the mohawk is step 11/12.
DG 6.03 Closed Mohawk (clMo): A mohawk in which the instep of the free foot is held at the heel of the skating foot until the free foot is
placed on the ice behind the heel of the skating foot. Following the weight transfer, the immediate position of the new free foot is in front of
the new skating foot (e.g. steps 11 and 12 of the Rocker Foxtrot)

[fsk8r]

The mohawk is in the Rocker Foxtrot- a silver dance. (So I should get to it by the time I'm 60, and you'll probably be to it next month...)

It looks like the mohawk is step 11/12.

I was having the weight transfer between the two feet described this morning as a schafer push. Apparently this means something to those who've done figures, but is meaningless to me. Has something to do with getting a nice push forward when you switch feet. All well and good, but I've got one leg which currently leaves the ice sideways because it follows the direction of the toes and not the direction of the body!
If anyone can enlighten me about this I'd be delighted. But I don't think doing this mohawk has anything to do with getting good turnout as you only need 90degrees between feet to do this one like the inside closed one.

[Skate@Delaware]

I was having the weight transfer between the two feet described this morning as a schafer push. Apparently this means something to those who've done figures, but is meaningless to me. Has something to do with getting a nice push forward when you switch feet. All well and good, but I've got one leg which currently leaves the ice sideways because it follows the direction of the toes and not the direction of the body!
If anyone can enlighten me about this I'd be delighted. But I don't think doing this mohawk has anything to do with getting good turnout as you only need 90degrees between feet to do this one like the inside closed one.
I would really like a detailed explanation on the schafer push, I got to see Edward demo it at Hackensack in the figures class (which was awfully great) but no one I skate with does it...

[fsk8r]

I would really like a detailed explanation on the schafer push, I got to see Edward demo it at Hackensack in the figures class (which was awfully great) but no one I skate with does it...

It was something to do with pushing off the opposite edge to normal. I could struggle to demo it one way, but no chance of a written explanation.

I do know that's it's the push used to do start figure loops (I think BO mainly) but that's the extent of my knowledge. Perhaps if there's anyone you skate with who had to learn figures might be able to demonstrate it (ie the older coaches)?

Hopefully there's someone out there who can explain it before I have to open the antique skating books for an explanation. Otherwise I'm waiting until my next lesson and quizzing the coach a bit more.

[phoenix]

Schaefer (sp?) push:

1. Stand w/ your feet in a T position, as if you were just going to stroke forward.

2. Tilt the foot in front to an *outside* edge

3. Major plie'

4. pressing on that outside edge, push off that foot so that you are now gliding backwards on the back foot, preferably on an outside edge.

This feels weird for several reasons--partly because, as someone said, you're using the outside edge to push & you're used to using the inside.

But even more than that (and here's where I find it confuses people), You aren't pushing yourself straight backwards--it's more like you'll move sideways to your original position. Think about your feet placement in the T: that back foot is facing "sideways" (toes/heel aligned w/ your shoulders)--so therefore when that blade starts to travel backwards it will carry you in that direction to start with.

That's the best I can write it out; if no one else manages it, I'll try to do a video next week when I'm back from Thanksgiving.

[Mrs Redboots]

Yes, I can do back cross rolls. :D So, what's a Foxtrot Mohawk then? I've only started ice dancing to enhance my freestyle.

It's an outside to outside Mohawk where you put your free foot down such that the instep is at the heel of your skating foot (can't remember which one is open and which closed!), rather like doing a back cross-roll, except you change direction. In an ideal world, you don't step on the back of your blade while doing this. The then free leg is extended forwards.

The mohawk is in the Rocker Foxtrot- a silver dance. (So I should get to it by the time I'm 60, and you'll probably be to it next month...)

Also in the Bronze Foxtrot (Keats Foxtrot, in some areas), which is where you first learn it. The one in the Rocker is far harder, as your partner is also doing it, so can't hold you up while you do it like he can in the Bronze Foxtrot!

I would really like a detailed explanation on the schafer push, I got to see Edward demo it at Hackensack in the figures class (which was awfully great) but no one I skate with does it...

If you see any skaters doing back progressive runs (as opposed to back crossovers), that is a Schaffer push. Normally, when you skate backwards, you push off a BI edge; in a Schaffer push, you push off a BO edge. It feels awkward until you are used to it, then you don't realise you're doing it!

[pineapple]

It the difference between and open and closed choctaw the same as for a mohawk?

To help you visualize the mohawks (this is how my dance coach explained them to me when I was 7 or 8): both of them make a T. In an open mohawk, the top of the T is the skating foot. In the closed mohawk, the top of the T is the free foot (the foot you will step on to). Does that help? Also, if you teach small kids their beginning mohawks, you're teaching them open mohawks, not closed.

The difference for choctaws is much more obvious than for mohawks. Open choctaws are the kind taught on junior moves, where the free foot is in "front" (front being the direct of the edge). I think the first one that comes up on dance is the Killian, but the most obvious example is in the Rhumba, if you want to look on up (this is a double choctaw, since you turn forwards to backwards and then back to forwards). In closed choctaws, the free foot is behind the skating foot. You usually step toe/heel, but you can also step with a cross-behind, so that the free foot comes fully behind the skating foot or you can step instep to heel. If you want to see examples, it's on the Blues (near the end of the pattern), Tango Romantica (second end pattern, in each corner), and Yankee Polka (first end pattern). Does that help at all? I think the best way to tell the difference is by looking at them.

[coskater64]

I think the foxtrot (pre silver/keats) is the harder foxtrot because of the positioning of the man, solo it is very easy, partnered it is akward. The rocker foxtrot mohawk is a little for fun and on a nice deep edge, if you don't think about it too much its not bad, neat feet are all you really need.

The schaffer push is hard to explain but that t-position pushing on the outside edge to a back edge that is usually curved.

Ibreakhearts 66, check the rule book on the novice pattern, there is a schaffer push contained with in the slow deeply lobed pattern, good extension, no skidding and building power are all part of the move. This was one of my favorites, but watch the arms if they go to high, you'll fall backward. I always preferred the whirling dervish inside 3 pattern, #1 on the novice. I hit the wall a lot!!

I of course have zero turn out, I just wait for the edges to finish and then go to the next edge.

I'm lazy that way.

Leslie:lol::lol:

[ibreakhearts66]

Thanks for the descriptions coskater and pineapple. That's what I imagined for each of the moves, but I wasn't certain.

[stacyf419]

Speaking of turnout again - although I have an inside spread eagle that's improving by the day, I really would love an Ina Bauer. Is it my turnout that is preventing me from doing anything but circling around myself? I picture myself sailing in a straight line down the rink, and then I wake up ha ha! Are there any exercises that will help me to at least get a rudimentary one that I can improve?

[stacyf419]

Also - regarding the Schaffer push - my coach had me work on that as a precursor to the Adult Silver MITF back cross strokes. Tough but helpful.

And O/T - Adult Silver MITF are much harder IMHO than Bronze. Bronze never felt like a big jump from Pre-Bronze to me, but the power pulls and back cross strokes are kicking my butt bigtime. At least I'm getting the 8-step with no trouble, but I am not confident that I will pass this test any time soon. Argh!:frus: