Ethics

[Pandora]

OK. Please don't attack.:giveup: Just asking.....

Let's say someone with high level freestyle but low MITF ability wants to compete. Have been told that "Skating Skills" are AS important as tricks (jumps/spins) on ice, if not actually MORE important. (On roller this is much different.) So if a person passed prepreliminary but flunked preliminary, (because of MITF), then no matter what their freestyle ability they would technically be Adult Bronze skaters. 8O Right? But wouldn't they be in trouble for skating "beneath their level." But then HOW could they get into trouble since judges have determined this to BE their level based on the MITF requirement????? So NO disciplinary action SHOULD be taken against the skater, right? Also, how often would a skater have to attempt tests to "prove" this is their appropriate level so as not to be in trouble for skating "beneath" their level????

[Skittl1321]

If you really can't pass the MITF test (as opposed to just won't bother) then you're right- that's your level. However, that means you also have to follow the rules of the level. So if you're skating in a low freestyle level, your jumps WILL be limited.

Also, to be an adult bronze skater, you need to pass Preliminary MITF.
Pre-preliminary MITF and free make you a pre-bronze skater.

(And I'd take Adult Bronze MITF over Preliminary. Yeah the 5 step mohawk - a pre-juv move- sucks, but it's better than the 3-turns on the line.)


And I don't really think there is such thing as "getting in trouble" for sandbagging. It's just a lot of really pissed off competitors at a skater being a jerk for not testing to the appropriate level. And yeah, there have been some people who have had to stop competiting for awhile to get their moves in line with their jumps and test up to the appropriate level. Because when you're refusing to bother to learn the moves, other people aren't going to be nice to you about it.

[Pandora]

Oh yes, I see what you mean. Then I'd be pre bronze. So if they determine that you are lazy about the MITF (just won't bother) vs you honestly can't do them. Then, you can get into trouble? Also, how often do you have to test to prove you are trying? Can the competitors coaches file some sort of grievence against you? Can you be banned from the USFS? And if you are banned, that means you can never skate on club ice because clubs can't/won't take you, right?

[Skittl1321]

I really don't think the judges will do anything about you skating at the wrong level, provided you are skating at the level you have been tested to. Maybe in an area where there are local judges you will be talked to, but I don't think this is a matter of "getting in trouble".

It's a matter of gaining a reputation in the skating community, and people talking behind your back.

There is no amount of time you have to try the test again. But if you are, say, an adult Gold competitor who is winning every single year with elements that Novice Master's skaters do, people are going to get pissed off at you, and you need to take the time to learn the MITF. The same thing might happen if you skate at Pre-Bronze, but since the jumps are so limited, people usually move out as soon as they can handle the MITF test, because like you seem to want to- they want to do more in their programs

[dbny]

Can the competitors coaches file some sort of grievence against you? Can you be banned from the USFS? And if you are banned, that means you can never skate on club ice because clubs can't/won't take you, right?

Sorry, but I have to :lol::lol::lol: about the USFS doing anything at all about this kind of thing. They don't do much about any complaints unless the most serious are thrust into their faces and held there for months on end. It takes a lot to get banned from the USFS, and sandbagging (especially at the level you are talking about) isn't even on the radar. It's a non-offense. Sexual harrassment, inappropriate physical behavior towards a skater, and that kind of thing are the real issues. Skittl is absolutely right that the only thing you would have to fear is the ill will of your fellow competitors. If your MIF are as bad as you say they are, then that should show in your programs, and get you off the hook with your peers.

[phoenix]

If your MIF are as bad as you say they are, then that should show in your programs, and get you off the hook with your peers.

ITA. It's very obvious what someone's level is by their skating. Your jumps/spins may be bigger than some others, but if you truly can't pass the moves, then you'd fit in w/ everyone else.

BTW, when you take a test, if you get a retry, you're allowed to retest it in 29 days (basically figure a month). A lot of times it does take more than one try to get through a test, so it's not like you try it once & then never again. Most competitors are continually working on the next level up, be it moves or FS, so probably they would assume you are doing the same.

People don't get mad unless they see someone staying at the same level year after year and beating the pants off everyone year after year.

And, as we said before, if your skating skills really are that bad, that won't be the case.

[liz_on_ice]

to the above, add that nonqualifying competitions will often let you skate up one level from your highest test passed, if you want to.

[Isk8NYC]

Competition forms have to be signed by a registered USFSA coach, who is essentially vouching for that skater entering the correct level event. It would be good to have that discussion with your coach in advance. While you don't have to test every month to prove your point, if you stop taking Moves lessons and practicing the patterns, you're not really trying. That sends out the wrong message to your competitors.

In rare cases, the competition chair will contact the coach to confirm the skater's level if they think there was a mistake on the entry form.

The animosity of other skaters towards someone perceived as a "sandbagger" is pretty bad among adults, especially those on message boards.
Be warned - I've seen some pretty ugly behavior and attitudes that last longer than the competition glory.

I would rather devote my resources to passing the correct test level rather than entering competitions. That's just my opinion.

[dance2sk8]

So if they determine that you are lazy about the MITF (just won't bother) vs you honestly can't do them.

I'm sorry, but I know plenty of people who continue to work and work towards their MITF and they DO make progress, even if it be small. I don't believe in the "you honestly can't do them" comment. I agree with several skaters here, if you aren't taking lessons are attempting to continue to work on them, than of course there will be ramifications by your peers when you compete and remain at a level where your jumps and spins are surpassing your abilities with MITF.

Pheonix has it right though about your abilities and their reflection during competition. A lot of people here have good comments and feedback regarding this matter.

[stacyf419]

If you can't pass Bronze MITF, I wonder how advanced and/or well-executed your jumps or spins are anyway. Plus footwork - what do you do, just stroke from jump to jump? Please do yourself and your skating a favor and KEEP WORKING ON MOVES. It all works together! 8-)

[Skittl1321]

Competition forms have to be signed by a registered USFSA coach, who is essentially vouching for that skater entering the correct level event.

However, most competitions and tests (in this area at least) will accept forms for adults without a signature. Not all adults have coaches (while I have one, in the eyes of USFS I don't- so I'm thankful for this leniency).

[ibreakhearts66]

If you can't pass Bronze MITF, I wonder how advanced and/or well-executed your jumps or spins are anyway. Plus footwork - what do you do, just stroke from jump to jump? Please do yourself and your skating a favor and KEEP WORKING ON MOVES. It all works together! 8-)

Agreed. Moves in the field have been my NEMESIS. I failed preliminary the first time I took it but had consistent jumps through at least 2loop. But with a lot, and I mean a LOT of hard work, in one year I went from failing preliminary to passing Intermediate. It made a HUGE difference in the quality of my skating.

If you were to go on my youtube and poked around, you would see a video from September of 2008 where I competed pre-juvenile. Even though I landed an axel, a double toe, a double sal and a double loop (albeit not particularly high quality but fully rotated) and came in last to skaters with cheated jumps. Why? Because I couldn't "skate" to save my life. I find it much easier to watch my video from regionals where I only landed jumps through 2toe and fell twice on nothing and had weak spins than the video where I landed through 2loop. Even though my skating skill still have a ways to go, I looked a LOT better at regionals.

If your general skating skills are weak, you will not place well no matter how well executed your jumps. I've found this to be especially true under 6.0 even though people have commented that 6.0 is all about the jumps. I can't even tell you how many times I skated a clean program, technically. only to place badly because of the overall appearance of my program. I understand the difficulties you've described about switching from roller to ice, but they're not problems you can't work through and BELIEVE me, it's worth it.

[coskater64]

I have a friend who failed her European Waltz 10 times, that is sizable number, currently she is working on her internationals, and has obviously passed the european along with all the silver, pre gold and gold dances. She passed her Sr moves at 45 by all 3 national judges the first time.

If you have only tried once or twice on the prelim then just switch over to the bronze, it doesn't have the spirals. Of course if you follow the adult track you will not be a prepared for the power requirements on the intermediate, especially the intermediate back power 3 end pattern move.

If it is known, that you have doubles and are skating bronze, there will be complaints from those skaters and for a very good reason. What you are doing is not fair, many of us have been told that we must skate at X level. I did not compete for a year because I had to complete tests to get to my level. I was not allowed to skate bronze, I had to skate silver due to tests I had in from my childhood. You don't have that issue, but if you think you are going to get any pity I wouldn't count on it and if you make the mistake of showing off your jumping skills on a warm up ( a certain male skater landed 2 toes on a silver warm up) you will have no cheering and only the most quiet of clapping as everyone looks at you and realizes you didn't want to bother to do the moves and that all you want to do is win. Whether that is your motivation or not that is what people will think.

As I have said before, there is no reason not to test the moves, just because you can't do them currently doesn't mean you can't learn them and shockingly if skating was easy, they'd call it hockey. (sorry to all the hockey players, don't check me into the wall)

It would seem the entire board is politely saying the same thing.

Leslie

[Pandora]

Thanks for the answers everyone. Just honestly wondering what my options are if I ever want to compete on ice. :D

[doubletoe]

Pandora, when you first asked your question it actually reminded me a lot of Ibreakhearts' story (which we have been hearing about for the past year or two), so I am really glad she shared it here. She knows where you're coming from and I am sure you can achieve the same results if you decide to go for it! :)

[RachelSk8er]

I'm going to be blunt...when I'm on the spectator side of things, if I see a skater come out and his/her actual skating ability is weak, I probably won't watch them, I don't really care about how good their jumps and spins are. (I'm talking a skater whose skills are particularly weak for that level...this is NOT to say I won't watch, let's say, a pre-bronze skater because their moves or whatont is only pre-bronze or bronze; I've seen some beautiful skaters at the lower levels, and especially at lower levels, having good flow and basic skills REALLY stands out). Most of your time in a program is spent on the in-between skating, and it's such a crucial part of the entire package. I've gone out in adult silver and beat skaters who have landed axels (albeit often cheated) without even attempting one myself, AND my spins generally suck because I spend a lot of time on the in-between skating (which luckily for me happens to be my strength). Even when I've gone out and made mistakes on jumps and spins, I still manage to get good ordinals.

If you hate moves so much and your jumps and spins are, as you claim, so much stronger proportionately, why not just stick to jump/spin/compulsory events at smaller competitions and not to a program?

I think people get criticized by peers just as much (if not more) when their skating skills are stronger in proportion to their jumps. I remember conversations (here or CAS, can't remember) post-ANs from people whining that the skaters in my group (silver I) at ANs were not playing fair because a lot of us were much stronger on the skating skills side with intermediate-junior MIF, some of us with silver dances. In most cases we struggle with jumps or spins (some of us both) and we're stuck in silver because, despite serious efforts, none of us have clean, consistent axels (I think only one person in our group even landed a totally clean, un-cheated axel). You can't and shouldn't "hide" good basic skills.

If you're on the other side of the spectrum--let's say a skater with a double toe and a double sal who can't pass bronze or silver moves so you have to compete pre-bronze or bronze, as long as you keep your mouth shut and refrain from trying to show off on practice ice or warm-up, no one has to know that you have double jumps, because you can't do them in competition anyway. You just can't do those jumps until you get to a certain level, so if you want to do them, you had better work on the moves and move up. And as for spins, those are less limited (other than no flying spin until silver). I've actually seen gorgeous spins at lower levels by people who have the flexibility to hit difficult positions and just "get" spinning naturally. (I've seen spins in bronze that gold skaters would kill for.)

And I don't buy that in between skating on rollers is not as important. I have watched plenty of videos of roller skaters online and I've been inspired by their choreography and less awed by the jumps and spins.

[Pandora]

Doubletoe, thank you for your vote of confidence. Not sure what I want to do yet. Just looking at options...

Have considered simply making some nice routines and posting straight onto youtube. Never really liked the pressure of competition anyways. So this might be best. But still going to try to get an event if possible. Also heard that there is some sort of exhibition at adult camp. If I made a nice routine, maybe could skate it there.....:D

Thought about switching back and forth between ice and inline (in the summer when the skatepark opens since I have no roller rink to practice on), but at the level I would have to do it, I think it would just get too dangerous.:cry: (There are no test requirements to compete on inline. Everyone over 13 skates World Class.There is no beginner event. There are also about 4 girls in the US doing it.);)

[Pandora]

On roller they do have choreography (of course), but as points go (it is scored under the artistic/technical 10.0 system), jumps rule. Highest jump almost always wins. Jump combos also important (and they do long ones. Things an ice skater would consider a sequence. For example: 2loop-loop-2toe loop (which they call a mapes)-half loop (which they call a uler)-2flip). Yes, seriously.:bow: Spins are generally second in importance, but if you get an incredible spinner (heel camel, broken ankle camel, very low inverted etc.) Then, yes, the "spinner" might beat the "jumper." But usually the jumper will win. Footwork/choreography is only usually a deciding factor between equals. I am pretty sure about this as I competed several years under this system (late 1980s) at local/regional level and won many times dispite lack of pretty much all footwork/connecting moves. (Think I threw my hands up in the air a couple of times.) ;) I won on jumps/spins.

[phoenix]

Just as an aside, I'm curious.....you keep saying you can't/couldn't pass the moves tests. So:

a) I'm assuming you have actually learned some of the patterns and couldn't do them?

b) How long did you work on them before you decided you couldn't do them?

c) If you tried any of them, were they elements from pre-pre or pre-bronze, or from a higher level?

The moves elements work on a (somewhat) slow progression, and no one is expected to be able to do a higher level before they're ready to work on it. PLUS, just like the jumps, no one goes out & tries a moves element, having never done it before, and is able to do it well. You didn't just go out one day & start landing doubles. No one goes out & hits moves patterns without someone teaching them and then practicing.

I'm still convinced that this wouldn't be that big a deal for you; it's just that you don't want to do it--not that you're physically incapable of it. If you spent as much energy/time skating simple edges as you do trying to get out of it, you'd probably be skating pretty decent edges by now. :giveup:

[Pandora]

Yes, you are right. On the lower level tests it is primarily a matter of not practicing the elements......However....On the higher tests (chatows and closed mohawks) it is a matter of not having enough turn out to do the edges properly. Ice judges very, very picky. :cry: No. Not a matter of stretchng. (Talked to orthopedist. Can stretch forever and only get a few more degrees.) Other people with "no turnout" claim they can do these, but really, there is a point where you have to have decent turn out to hit a nice, clean edge and change direction. It is just the way these turns are.....But, to be fair, I think they start on the Intermediate Test (unless they added them to Adult Gold), so this is only an issue at the higher levels....

And I guess maybe I misrepresented how "bad" I am at skating. I skated for many, many years. I can do things like rockers, counters, twizzles etc. but primarily only on my "good" side. (The easy way.) Never bothered learning them on the "other" side and, (like jumping the "wrong way"), it is very, very hard for me to go the other direction. On roller, never had to. Coach just put in what little footwork I did do "my way." Also, simple things like I don't cross completely over the top of my skate when cross cutting forward in the other direction (clockwise) but put the skate opposite the other. Obviously, you can still skate like this, but a judge will not like it and fail you on a test for it. This type of stuff.

Also, I am 40. Getting old.:cry: Only have so much time at rink. As a jumper I obviously want to be able to do a certain level jump before I get too old. Test would take a lot of time. So by going after certain freestyle elements, ironically, I am assuring I can never use them in any competition because I ignored the tests in order to have time to practice them. :roll: But, then, as you will all say, (correctly), that is my choice. So don't whine that I can't compete.;)

[Mrs Redboots]

I think the thing is that while adults are still marked under the old RJS system (6.0) you can get away with being a "jumping bean", but you honestly can't under IJS, which is already here at the adult internationals, and is coming to adult skaters of all levels (I believe that the British Adult Championships are to be marked under IJS next year; don't know about the USFSA ones).

And even under the RJS, these days you really do need a step sequence (okay, or a spiral sequence) to have a "well-balanced programme" - and that is partly where the moves come in, as you want to be able to show a good variety of turns, twizzles, and so on, as well as having something slightly more interesting between the jumps and spins than just back crossovers!

I suspect that part of the issue for you may be that you practice your elements in isolation, rather than putting them as part of a sequence? If you got your coach to set up a sequence of steps for you that included a jump or a spin, you would find yourself practising the moves almost without knowing it, and then they wouldn't loom quite so large!

[Pandora]

You are very right there. Maybe will add steps before/after elements can get in a little practice that way. Want to build a routine for youtube anyways....:D

Also, last problem with whole testing thing is that I don't have a coach, nor can I afford one/a club etc. From what I have learned, I have the "right" to take the tests (as long as I purchase an USFS card and become an individual member), but, from what I have heard, without a coach on the form and/or club, the judges are leery of passing you no matter how well you do. (Only heard this from other skaters. Don't know if it is really true.)

[Isk8NYC]

Just go have fun skating and don't worry about the USFSA rules or testing.