Regular vs. adult track

[Kat12]

So despite thinking that I never wanted to test, part of me thinks I might want to some day (though I need a LOT more work before then! Could quite likely pass Pre-pre right now as it is, but would still rather work on it some more).

However, I've considered eschewing the adult track to go with the regular one instead. Is there any reason not to? I know, with adult track there are only four tests (read: CHEAPER! because not so many test fees), but with regular track, I see that if you've passed Prelim it is considered the same as passing adult Pre-Bronze, whereas it doesn't work the other way around (I could pass adult Gold and still would not have any equivalency, so would have to go back and start at the beginning with standard track if I wished to have both).

Would it be dumb to start standard track as an adult? Is that really only meant for people who start as kids?

[Skittl1321]

If you pass Gold, you don't really have to start over. It's not like you have juvenile, in regards to competitions. But your next step IS intermediate, so once you do that, then you're on the standard track, as if you started from the beginning.

Look at the moves that make up the adult track and the standard track. What do you think about the back circle 8s- a good skill to learn, but they could take a long time. What about spirals on the first test? Do you have the flexibility for them to be the breeze they are intended as, or do you need to wait until silver?

It's perfectly fine to do standard track, just remember, you have to skate to standard track standard, so adult leniency is gone. And some judges might judge you HARDER than the kids because you don't NEED the test. (Edit: To respond to phoenix, it is VERY true in our area.)

[phoenix]

And some judges might judge you HARDER than the kids because you don't NEED the test.

In my area at least, this is totally not true, so take that sentiment with a grain of salt.

I personally think adults *should* test standard track moves, if they're capable. As you said, there are now crossover points, so if you ever got stuck you could switch over. My main reason is that the adult track, with its only 4 levels, leaves out a LOT of stuff that you learn on the standard track. I'm all about the learning & having solid skating, so IMHO it's to your great benefit to do standard as far as possible.

[dbny]

It's perfectly fine to do standard track, just remember, you have to skate to standard track standard, so adult leniency is gone. And some judges might judge you HARDER than the kids because you don't NEED the test.

Try to find out what's going on in your area re adults testing standard. I've seen quite a few adults pass standard track tests that I think the judges would have failed kids on. Some judges are actually aware of the fact that adults testing standard are not doing it to become competitive skaters.

[Isk8NYC]

My main reason is that the adult track, with its only 4 levels, leaves out a LOT of stuff that you learn on the standard track. I see that in the Basic Skills program as well - the Adult track has an odd mixture of things that don't handle skill-building as clearly as the Basic/Free Skate levels. I've been teaching the missing elements as drills, which helps tremendously.

Once concern is the "adult friendliness" of your intended skating club, where you will be taking the tests. The North Jersey FSC is like a haven compared to some of the stories I've heard about other clubs. I know of several clubs whose officers pride themselves on having tough judges for Moves.

Speed and power are the dividing line, imo, not age. All standard-track skaters have to demonstrate that they can skate with both speed and power. There is less emphasis on speed and power with the Adult-track tests.

[Kat12]

I'd actually sort of prefer being tested to higher standards...I don't want someone saying "well, she's an adult, she's going to suck, oh look, she didn't fall down, that's great!"

I might be worried about it if I were older, but I'm 27, not 47 or 57....hopefully I've got a few years before my body goes TOO much to hell! :)

[RachelSk8er]

I test standard track for everything.

Adult v. standard for moves doesn't really apply to me. I had novice moves from when I was a teenager, so I've never had to take an adult moves test and at 28 I'm trying to pass junior and senior.

For dance, I got through my pre-silvers as a teenager and picked dance up again after college/grad school (am now on my pre-golds). I continue to test standard because I don't feel that testing on the adult track and not having to solo would make me a better skater, it's perfecting the solos that carries a benefit over to my freestyle. And I compete solo dance, so I'll need polished solos anyway.

I've actually tested both tracks for freestyle for various reasons, and will probably continue to do so since I only have one adult test left. I have kind of been staggering it so I take the adult test, and then the equivalent-ish standard test is almost a "step" to the next adult test. I really didn't mean to do it that way, I was going to switch to standard after the rules for ANs changed and standard tests were OK, but I kept doing both just for the experience of performing under pressure. If I can handle my (really bad) nerves on a test, competing is nothing.

[doubletoe]

Kat, if you were going to compete, I would recommend the adult track, since you could pass those test faster and qualify for the level you want to compete at. But since you don't have a time limit for passing your tests, I agree with the strategy of starting on the standard track and switching over the adult track partway through if you want.
I tested all the way through Adult Gold and then took the Intermediate MIF test, which is the one crossover point from the adult MIF to standard track MIF. I definitely suffered from not having done the Juvenile MIF, because I hadn't had the back power 3's from the Juvenile moves to prepare me for the more difficult back power 3's on the Intermediate moves. And yes, the passing standard was even higher than I'd expected on the Intermediate test than for the same moves on the Adult Gold test.
P.S. You have plenty of time. I started skating at 27 and didn't feel my body starting to slow down on me until I hit 40.

[coskater64]

I have done both tracks, the adult does stop at gold and then you go on to intermediate should you choose. If you are only 27, I would stick with the standard. Save the adult tests for something you do when you are older. I took all the adult fm tests in about 3 months while recovering from a serious injury.

I passed my Jr at 45 and am working on my Sr. fm test. Passed the intermediate fs at 41, will probably never get the novice but I still enjoy working on free skate.

I do both adult and standard for dance, silver standard, and pre gold adult. I have also been doing free dance and passed the novice fd in Sept. So the adult track really isn't cheaper if you want to build your skills.

Have fun!

[Audryb]

I'm an adult (30) who started skating as an adult (29) and plan on testing standard track as soon as I can afford to start taking private lessons. I just think it will make me a better skater overall. If I decide I want to compete I may end up testing Adult track also, but right now I'm not that interested in competing.

[liz_on_ice]

My coach discouraged me from testing standard track. He says there are some things that are just harder for adults. People get hung up on them and get discouraged. By the time you pass adult gold, the difference doesn't matter so much. I told him I want to test moves through senior someday and he's all for it.

[Ellyn]

So far I'm doing the standard track for MITF.

I passed the bronze freestyle test before there were adult Moves in the Field. So I could start moves testing with adult silver. There would kind of be no point in doing the adult prebronze and bronze.

But it's taking me years to master the threes in the field patterns up to 2.7 standard.

So I tested prepreliminary with a month's practice in brand new boots. Preliminary took me three tries, with breaks for injuries and concentrating on freestyle when I was competing, because of the forward alternating threes that adults don't need to do.

Now I'm finally getting the back threes close to passing standard. I asked my coach whether I should test prejuvenile or adult silver first, and we decided on prejuv because on average I'm stronger on the other moves on that test.

We'll see how that goes. Now the plan is to pass prejuvenile, then pass silver soon after, and then aim for juvenile (should take a couple years) and then adult gold (will take many years because so far I cannot do the brackets on the pattern at all). Those are my testing goals because I don't want to move up officially in freestyle. And I don't anticipate ever passing any moves tests beyond juvenile and adult gold, although I will work on some of the skills in isolation.

[RachelSk8er]

Save the adult tests for something you do when you are older. I took all the adult fm tests in about 3 months while recovering from a serious injury.



OOOh you just gave me a good idea. I'm hoping to get back on the ice around Thanksgiving and will need to do a few weeks of "rehab" skating. (I was thinking just figures and going back and doing basic moves patterns). I could just do the adult moves tests and probably bang them all out on one test session. That would give me something to focus on so that I don't get bored and start trying things my ankle isn't ready for yet. And since I haven't taken a moves test in 9 yrs, it'll be good practice in handling nerves for my jr test when I get that back into shape. It may be a few months before my ankle can handle the diagonal patterns on junior again.


And I don't anticipate ever passing any moves tests beyond juvenile and adult gold, although I will work on some of the skills in isolation.

If you can pass adult gold, you can pass intermediate. I don't know what the changes to intermediate will be after next year, but as of now half the test is the same as adult gold, you'll just have to make the patterns that are the same a little stronger for intermediate (I think the brackets are the most difficult thing on intermediate right now).

[tazsk8s]

It's perfectly fine to do standard track, just remember, you have to skate to standard track standard, so adult leniency is gone. And some judges might judge you HARDER than the kids because you don't NEED the test. (Edit: To respond to phoenix, it is VERY true in our area.)

FWIW, in my area there IS no "adult leniency" on the adult track. In fact, since there is such a limited number of adults testing as compared to the kids I think the judges have no clue what a passing adult moves test ought to even look like and they judge the moves to the regular standards anyway. Meaning, regardless of what "number" you need to pass the test, they expect to see your Silver cross strokes look just like the one that the kids are doing on Juvenile if they're going to pass Silver.

My other problem with the adult structure is that the skill progression doesn't "build" upon previous levels anywhere near as well as the standard track. Picking on Silver moves again, you've got power pulls and cross strokes on the same test. The power pulls are good for really learning to do cross strokes properly (I can do neither, but I don't spend much time practicing them anymore :))but in the adult structure you learn them at the same time. I was grandfathered to Silver, having passed Bronze FS before they implemented moves, so have an even weaker background on the lower level elements. IF (and that is a big IF because I don't enjoy working on moves at all) I ever get back into testing, I'm going to to back to pre-pre and probably prelim. I see no chance of ever moving ahead on the moves tests until I really learn those skills.

[Skittl1321]

If you can pass adult gold, you can pass intermediate. I don't know what the changes to intermediate will be after next year, but as of now half the test is the same as adult gold, you'll just have to make the patterns that are the same a little stronger for intermediate (I think the brackets are the most difficult thing on intermediate right now).

If only that were the case. We have a coach at our rink who passed adult gold with flying colors and is now on her 3rd try with intermediate moves. She has had new coaches come in to watch the tests and NO ONE can figure out why she hasn't gotten a pass.

I think the judges have no clue what a passing adult moves test ought to even look like and they judge the moves to the regular standards anyway.
Our coaches seem to have this problem- they have no idea what the numbers are supposed to represent for the moves. But the judges (at least up until Bronze so far) seem to be having some "adult" standard in mind. One of my coaches suggested that while on my best day my 5 step mohawk was up to standard track, on my test I probably got a bit of ease for being an adult on adult track

[Clarice]

I think that all Moves tests should be the same, but that there should be different passing standards like there are on compulsory dance tests. The skater could choose to test "standard", "adult" if they were 21 or older, or "masters" if they were 50 or older. The progressively lower passing scores are meant to give older skaters a bit of a break on power - for dance tests, we're still required to show correct edges and timing.

I have passed Adult Gold MIF, and would like to continue testing MIF (I have also passed standard track through Pre-Juv), but there's no way at my age that I'll have enough power to pass Intermediate on the standard track.

I actually made this suggestion to the Adult Committee, and was told that they're already talking about it.

[Ellyn]

I think that all Moves tests should be the same, but that there should be different passing standards like there are on compulsory dance tests. The skater could choose to test "standard", "adult" if they were 21 or older, or "masters" if they were 50 or older. The progressively lower passing scores are meant to give older skaters a bit of a break on power - for dance tests, we're still required to show correct edges and timing.

I actually made this suggestion to the Adult Committee, and was told that they're already talking about it.

I agree. This would be especially useful at the higher levels, where right now the only option is standard track and it's about to get more difficult.

An adult who starts at 30-something or 40-something may have no trouble getting through the first few levels on either track. But by the time s/he actually gets past gold level and starts working on the harder moves, the skater will already be older and physical aging may start to have more and more of an effect on the quality of the movement even as the skater's technique continues to improve.

Not that I personally ever expect to get there. But if there were a track with lower standards for novice moves, I might hold it out as a very-long-term goal. And I know other older, more advanced adults who would benefit from such an option right now.

[Skittl1321]

I think that all Moves tests should be the same, but that there should be different passing standards like there are on compulsory dance tests. The skater could choose to test "standard", "adult" if they were 21 or older, or "masters" if they were 50 or older. The progressively lower passing scores are meant to give older skaters a bit of a break on power - for dance tests, we're still required to show correct edges and timing.

I have passed Adult Gold MIF, and would like to continue testing MIF (I have also passed standard track through Pre-Juv), but there's no way at my age that I'll have enough power to pass Intermediate on the standard track.

I actually made this suggestion to the Adult Committee, and was told that they're already talking about it.

This is a really excellent suggestion.

However, at the same time, I think the reorganization of some of the lower levels is good too- spirals particularly. I don't know where the flexibility went (I could do them 3 years ago) but those flat spirals are giving me as much trouble as most of the other silver moves.

[pairman2]

Regarding which track builds skills better, I don't think there's a huge difference between Pre-Bronze through Gold vrs Pre-pre through Juv. For most skaters in either track, they would be about equally prepared by the time they get to intermediate. Actual age and how hard you train will have a much greater impact then what track you choose.

While I think the MIF are the single best cohesive system to build well rounded skating, it is by no means the only way. Figures is great cross training and there are a great many excercises and drills that are not found on MIF that do a fantastic job of building specific skills. I think a few excercises are better then some closely related MIF patterns

[flo]

I've done some of both, but primarily the adult track as I compete as an adult. Just remember that if you do have any desire to compete, the equivalency between adult and standard tests is a moving target. So, take a look at the composition of both tracks and see what you prefer as far as the skills and order.
Enjoy

[rlichtefeld]

If you have the time, money and choice, start with the standard track.

At any time you can crossover from the standard track to the Adult track. The intent is for youth skaters (who don't have the option of taking the adult tests) to be able to step in to the Adult testing at the equivalent level they were skating as a kid.

Just my .01€

Rob

[doubletoe]

If you can pass adult gold, you can pass intermediate. I don't know what the changes to intermediate will be after next year, but as of now half the test is the same as adult gold, you'll just have to make the patterns that are the same a little stronger for intermediate (I think the brackets are the most difficult thing on intermediate right now).

Not true! I passed Gold MIF on the first try, but the back power 3's killed me on the Intermediate test. The passing standard was much higher for the other moves, too. The only 3 moves that passed every time I took the Intermediate test (that's 4 times, for those who are counting) were my forward & backward power circles and slide chasse. I've taken a break from it for the past year but will probably try again sometime in 2010.

[Skittl1321]

I wonder if the changes to intermediate will make it "easier"- at least pschologically. I mean it's really hard to think "this move was passing standard, and now it's not- what do I do differently"

Learning all new moves is definetly a challenge, and they aren't easy moves by any stretch- but it's a totally different test. And I think that's easier to deal with then trying to figure out how to make the moves you thought were correct, a new level of correct.

[RachelSk8er]

Not true! I passed Gold MIF on the first try, but the back power 3's killed me on the Intermediate test. The passing standard was much higher for the other moves, too. The only 3 moves that passed every time I took the Intermediate test (that's 4 times, for those who are counting) were my forward & backward power circles and slide chasse. I've taken a break from it for the past year but will probably try again sometime in 2010.

I never said you could pass intermediate with flying colors on the first try without a whole lot of effort if you pass gold. You still have to work, you may not pass the first time, but I still see intermediate as a realistic goal for someone who has passed adult gold. I don't see a reason for anyone who has adult gold to stop testing and not try for intermediate just because they think they can't do it.

I've suggested making the moves and freestyle tests the same and just using the lower passing standard for adults and you can cross over at any time if you choose (just like for dance). It would be a lot less confusing. When I brought it up in a committee meeting, people who don't like spirals or the consecutive 3s on prelim (or are they pre-pre) that are left off of adult tests threw a fit at that suggestion. I still don't see why those complaints would justify not allowing, at the very least, novice-senior moves and free with a lower passing mark.

[fsk8r]

I never said you could pass intermediate with flying colors on the first try without a whole lot of effort if you pass gold. You still have to work, you may not pass the first time, but I still see intermediate as a realistic goal for someone who has passed adult gold. I don't see a reason for anyone who has adult gold to stop testing and not try for intermediate just because they think they can't do it.

I've suggested making the moves and freestyle tests the same and just using the lower passing standard for adults and you can cross over at any time if you choose (just like for dance). It would be a lot less confusing. When I brought it up in a committee meeting, people who don't like spirals or the consecutive 3s on prelim (or are they pre-pre) that are left off of adult tests threw a fit at that suggestion. I still don't see why those complaints would justify not allowing, at the very least, novice-senior moves and free with a lower passing mark.

OK, I'm not in the US so can't really comment on the test system but want to know quite what adults problems with spirals are. We have to do straight line spirals on the first moves test in the UK and forward and backward ones on the elements test. Adults test the same as the kids with the same passing standard. I know loads of adults who've passed their spirals and these aren't 20somethings. A lot are closer to 60 than 16 and they're managing to get their legs to hip height so what's the problem?
I can understand that possibly having an adult passing standard would be useful especially at the higher levels (I know people in the UK who are getting stuck on the higher tests because they just don't have the power), but I'd have thought all the exercises are manageable by anyone just not necessarily at the power standards.

[Mrs Redboots]

A lot are closer to 60 than 16 and they're managing to get their legs to hip height so what's the problem?

Just "to hip height" is no longer enough - it has to be above hip height. I can't, not nearly - I do what feels like a really high spiral, and on a photo or video it looks like I've finally got decent extension! To be fair, the Husband can, despite being less than a month from his 59th birthday, but then, he always was slim and fit. Unlike me!

[Skittl1321]

Just "to hip height" is no longer enough - it has to be above hip height. I can't, not nearly - I do what feels like a really high spiral, and on a photo or video it looks like I've finally got decent extension! To be fair, the Husband can, despite being less than a month from his 59th birthday, but then, he always was slim and fit. Unlike me!

I'm not even 30 yet, and I can't do it on one side.

Oddly enough, if I had done pre-pre years ago when I first started I COULD. However, I no longer can. But I've got other problems on silver moves, so it's moot.

(I'm not totally inflexible either- I can do a full split - on the ground- on the other side, and have a semi-decent, though not as good as it used to be spiral on the good side)

[fsk8r]

Just "to hip height" is no longer enough - it has to be above hip height. I can't, not nearly - I do what feels like a really high spiral, and on a photo or video it looks like I've finally got decent extension! To be fair, the Husband can, despite being less than a month from his 59th birthday, but then, he always was slim and fit. Unlike me!

It's possible to stretch out and improve your spirals. I know a lady of a similar age (don't know as I never ask a lady her age) who has passed her Level 1 moves. She worked hard on getting her spirals to height (and to not be terrified doing them) but she is quite proud of the fact that she's managed it. I know as many kids who struggle to get their legs high enough as I do adults. But as you say the photos are showing that what you think is really high is just nice extension, is perhaps the problem our perception of what we're doing (like sit spins which don't really go down but feel really low)?

(Incidentally I've yet to work out when spirals went to hip height or above. All the old books on skating, pre-1950, I've read describe the move on a spiralling edge in an arabeque position. One author complains that all ladies do a backward one ending in a back pivot and he was quite bored of seeing it in programs).

[doubletoe]

I never said you could pass intermediate with flying colors on the first try without a whole lot of effort if you pass gold. You still have to work, you may not pass the first time, but I still see intermediate as a realistic goal for someone who has passed adult gold. I don't see a reason for anyone who has adult gold to stop testing and not try for intermediate just because they think they can't do it.

I've suggested making the moves and freestyle tests the same and just using the lower passing standard for adults and you can cross over at any time if you choose (just like for dance). It would be a lot less confusing. When I brought it up in a committee meeting, people who don't like spirals or the consecutive 3s on prelim (or are they pre-pre) that are left off of adult tests threw a fit at that suggestion. I still don't see why those complaints would justify not allowing, at the very least, novice-senior moves and free with a lower passing mark.

I actually agree with what you are saying. If I had done the Juvenile back power 3's, the Intermediate back power 3's would have been a lot less difficult.
Although I managed to develop flexibility for the first time in my 40's, not everyone is able or willing to do that in time for their first test, so I would probably still make some sort of exception for the adult spirals (either put the spirals on a later test, or lower the standards so that the free leg does not have to be above hip height).

[Kat12]

Flexibility also varies from person to person. i was never very flexible, even as a child; I never did get full splits, even on my better side (now I'm just downright pathetic). Some people probably could do it without much trying, and I knew kids who were in that exact situation; it wasn't that they worked hard, they were just naturally more flexible. Mind you, I WAS improving, and maybe if I'd stuck with gymnastics a bit longer or had been taught stretching exercises, I might've gotten there, but. As it was it didn't happen. I'm pretty healthy in other respects, so I know it's not anything like my body just isn't up to it...I'm just an inflexible person.

My spirals are not much above hip height. Probably wouldn't have been much better as a child. It could be that if I wanted to really work on it, i could improve, BUT. Everything I read about stretching says you should do it for like an hour a day. An hour a day. On top of skating, off-ice training, any other extracurriculars, household chores, etc. No wonder so many people--including me--balk at it.

[doubletoe]

Flexibility also varies from person to person. i was never very flexible, even as a child; I never did get full splits, even on my better side (now I'm just downright pathetic). Some people probably could do it without much trying, and I knew kids who were in that exact situation; it wasn't that they worked hard, they were just naturally more flexible. Mind you, I WAS improving, and maybe if I'd stuck with gymnastics a bit longer or had been taught stretching exercises, I might've gotten there, but. As it was it didn't happen. I'm pretty healthy in other respects, so I know it's not anything like my body just isn't up to it...I'm just an inflexible person.

My spirals are not much above hip height. Probably wouldn't have been much better as a child. It could be that if I wanted to really work on it, i could improve, BUT. Everything I read about stretching says you should do it for like an hour a day. An hour a day. On top of skating, off-ice training, any other extracurriculars, household chores, etc. No wonder so many people--including me--balk at it.

Some types of flexibility are related to joint structure, but forward splits are basically muscle and ligament stretch, which can be acquired. For some people, it's natural, and for others, it must be developed through regular, correct stretching. I was never flexible as a child or teenager, even when I was taking ballet. I did the splits for the first time in my life at age 42, after stretching for 30 minutes every time I got off the ice, 4 days a week for a year. An hour every day? No way. *Correct* stretching is the key (including proper form and holding each phase of the stretch for 30 seconds).

[fsk8r]

Some types of flexibility are related to joint structure, but forward splits are basically muscle and ligament stretch, which can be acquired. For some people, it's natural, and for others, it must be developed through regular, correct stretching. I was never flexible as a child or teenager, even when I was taking ballet. I did the splits for the first time in my life at age 42, after stretching for 30 minutes every time I got off the ice, 4 days a week for a year. An hour every day? No way. *Correct* stretching is the key (including proper form and holding each phase of the stretch for 30 seconds).

Can you reference what stretches you did? For some strange reason, I'd like to learn to do the splits. I was never that flexible as a child (but my spirals are high enough and get complimented - for an adult!) but would like to put a little effort in to try and learn. I've been working on turnout recently to help with spreadeagles. I sit in the butterfly position every morning as I dry my hair. It's helping. I can nearly do a nice inside edge one which isn't on too tight a circle. Outsides are going to take longer, but if I can improve on 5mins a day I'm happy however long it takes.

[dance2sk8]

Even if you are capable of doing the split position (which I FINALLY am able to..), it takes a lot of rear end muscle to lift that leg up above hip level. Just think of the muscles that Allissa Cizsny, Emily Hughes, and a few others out there have. Plus, from what I understand, the more you practice it, the higher it will get (along with all the stretching exercises, etc.)

[Skittl1321]

Not to mention it's not just the strength to get the leg up (which I know I'm lacking) but also the balance on the skating leg.

I have MUCH higher spirals off ice (even with boots on) because my balance is more secure on my bad leg than it is on the ice.

[doubletoe]

Can you reference what stretches you did? For some strange reason, I'd like to learn to do the splits. I was never that flexible as a child (but my spirals are high enough and get complimented - for an adult!) but would like to put a little effort in to try and learn. I've been working on turnout recently to help with spreadeagles. I sit in the butterfly position every morning as I dry my hair. It's helping. I can nearly do a nice inside edge one which isn't on too tight a circle. Outsides are going to take longer, but if I can improve on 5mins a day I'm happy however long it takes.

Sorry to veer away from the original subject of the thread, but OK! I wanted to be able to do the splits ever since I was a kid, so I understand completely, LOL! Here are the stretches that have helped me (listed in the order in which I recommend doing them). Remember, all stretches must be held for 30 seconds (look at a clock with a second hand, or count 1-Mississippi, 2-Mississippi...) and you should only stretch after you have warmed up with some sort of exercise. Stretching right after skating is great.

1. Quad stretch - http://farm1.static.flickr.com/107/315009314_07946a7075_o.jpg Try to do this on a surface that puts your front leg at a 90 degree angle with front thigh parallel to back thigh. I use a bench or the top of a staircase (the lower and flatter the surface, the more stretch you get). I grab my ankle with one hand, completely relax that leg once I've grabbed it, then pull the foot to my butt and hold for 30 seconds. Leaning to the outside gets the outer quad and leaning to the inside gets the inner quad.

2. Hip flexor stretch - Same position as above, but now the back leg is extended straight back and the torso is upright, so you are in a forward split but with the front leg bent at a 90 degree angle. Keep the back knee facing straight down. Do not turn the hip out. (And when you finally do the splits on the floor, be sure to keep the back knee facing down; otherwise, you can pull a muscle. Ask me how I know!). Once you can hold this position for 30 seconds with the front and back thigh in a straight line and the back leg flat down, you have enough hip flexor flexibility to do a split with that leg in back. Here is another popular hip flexor stretch: http://www.iyogalife.com/iyogalife/cms/uploads/1/lowlungekneedown.jpg

3. Calf stretch - I like standing on a stair on one foot and letting my heel hang down, but any calf stretch works (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_73Kt7qhOtFI/R6E4SJjx_CI/AAAAAAAAAtA/h3ri5Kg4dcU/s320/Calf+Stretch+1.jpg) as long as you feel the stretch. Always stretch calves before hamstrings, since tight calves can limit your hamstring stretch.

4. Seated hamstring stretch, 30 seconds on each leg. Pay close attention to the position of the free leg in this picture (bottom of foot against inside of extended thigh). This position keeps the hips squared. http://www.drillsandskills.com/images/stretches/pk006.jpg
To avoid a rounded back, you can sit with your back against a wall and use one hand to push your lower back away from the wall while trying to arch your back and push forward. Don't try to touch your head to your knee; try to touch your belly button to your thigh. Once you can hold your chest completely flat to your thigh for 30 seconds, you have enough hamstring flexibility for a split with that leg in front. This was the single biggest breakthrough stretch for me.

Other hamstring stretches good for beginners or those with chronically tight hamstrings:

- Standing stretch with one leg extended on raised surface: http://www.grouptrails.com/images/0-hamstring-stretch-300-ht.jpgStand on one leg with one leg extended in front of you and resting on a raised surface (height of the surface can range from a single stair to a chair or bed, depending on your flexibility). Keeping both legs locked straight, arch your back and stick your butt out. Hold for 20 seconds, then do a "negative", pressing the heel down into the raised surface for 10 seconds. Repeat 2 more times. Switch legs.

- Lying hamstring stretch with belt - http://www.ultracycling.com/images/hamstring_stretch.jpgLie on your back and raise one leg, putting a belt under the foot of the raised leg and holding the ends of the belt with your hands. Use the belt to pull the straightened leg toward you so you feel a stretch in the hamstring. Guide the leg to the left, middle and right so you stretch the inside, middle and outside of the hamstring. Hold each position for at least 20 seconds and try to gradually bring it closer and closer to your chest.

BTW, the butterfly stretch (http://z.about.com/d/gymnastics/1/5/6/3/-/-/Butterfly-400.jpg) helped me get my spread eagle, too. I would sit with my back against the wall in butterfly position and watch TV with my hands resting on my knees until my groin muscles relaxed and I could gently push my knees all the way to the floor. The frog stretch ([URL="http://www.rainsdance.com/images/articles/yin-yoga-frog_2.jpg) is really good, too, since it opens your hips without straining your knees.

[Skittl1321]

Just FYI- I've been warned by every pilates and ballet teacher I've come across never to do that frog stretch unless you have incredibly open hips to begin with.

Because it is a weighted stretch, you can't control it- you might as well lie in butterfly position with a concrete block on each knee. It is very easy to do damage by pushing your hip flexors too far, and it can cause great strain to your knees. If you do not lay with your butt down, it can also stress the lower back.

[doubletoe]

Just FYI- I've been warned by every pilates and ballet teacher I've come across never to do that frog stretch unless you have incredibly open hips to begin with.

Because it is a weighted stretch, you can't control it- you might as well lie in butterfly position with a concrete block on each knee. It is very easy to do damage by pushing your hip flexors too far, and it can cause great strain to your knees. If you do not lay with your butt down, it can also stress the lower back.

Oh, thank you for sharing that! I have fairly open hips and have no trouble with outside spread eagles and Ina Bauers, but even I can't lie completely flat like the girl in the photo. I do it on my bed, which is more comfortable and forces the position less.

Having said that, turnout (open hips) is determined by the structure/position of the hip joints and you either have it or you don't, so I would caution anyone against trying to force spread eagle positions. You will strain your knees if you do not have open hips and you try to force a spread eagle position. If you have done butterfly stretches to loosen up the groin muscles and your knees still do not turn out and face the same direction as your feet when you do a spread eagle position, you should not try to do spread eagles.

[fsk8r]

Thanks for the exercises and the warnings. I've already smashed my knee cap so very aware of doing potential damage and wouldn't think of doing the frog stretch. I prefer to lie down in the butterfly position (face up, not down). And having stretched hamstrings seems to be key to skating, despite not really thinking we're using them.

[Kat12]

Not to mention it's not just the strength to get the leg up (which I know I'm lacking) but also the balance on the skating leg.

I have MUCH higher spirals off ice (even with boots on) because my balance is more secure on my bad leg than it is on the ice.

LOL, I can do them on ice but when I try it off ice I fall over! Probably because I'm moving on ice, kinda like a bicycle, y'know?

[Ellyn]

Well, you can practice spiral positions off ice while holding onto something to steady your balance and just work on the strength and flexibility.

Or stretch in that position on ice holding onto the boards and not moving.

[Isk8NYC]

Kat makes a good point - static (standstill) balance is very different from kinetic (moving) balance. If you're standing still, hold on to something, at least until your balance is steady. I took a yoga class with a guy who must be related to Gumby. I thought I had good balance until I saw this guy grab his big toe and pull it up over his head! 8O I used a wall to keep myself upright. Not worth the fall.

Even if you can't do a spiral on the ice yet, practicing that position off-ice really helps, especially if you use ankle weights to simulate the weight of your skate (or just wear your skates with guards.)

I like using the bathroom counter because it faces a huge wall mirror, so I can see the stretch. Just put your hands on the counter edge, to the outside of each shoulder. Then, bend your knees and lift one leg behind the standing leg. Hold, then straighten the standing knee (don't lock it) and raise your free foot higher. You should NOT see your free foot/leg sticking out to the side. Your free hip should be closed and your free toe is pointed, laces out to the side. Just as importantly, you should be able to see your full face in the mirror because your back should be arched.

The ideal is hold stretches for 30 seconds or more, but if it hurts, STOP.
Don't overdo it at first. Start with 10 seconds and then increase the time as the stretch gets less challenging.

This bend-lift-straighten-lift is the same technique I teach on-ice for spirals. It really prevents face plants because it steadies the skater before they get into the full position. An experienced skater can just pop up into position because they can "feel" the right spot on the skating blade. A beginner will be searching for it, which often leads right over the toepick and onto the ice. We also use that "find your balance" technique in Yoga, Pilates and Core Workouts.