Looking for Certain Adult Skaters

[Pandora]

Wondering if there are any adult skaters out there whose freestyle ability (jumps/spins) greatly exceeds their MITF ability? (Thereby making testing/competing under the current structure difficult.) These would primarily be adults who are very athletic, in extremely good physical shape, and who came to figure skating from sports like gymnastics, roller skating etc. If this is you, please contact me through a private message. For everyone else, please do not lecture me or try to fight with me. (This already got ugly on another board. I am not responding to any posts.:giveup: )

Just wondering if there are any more out there.....:?:

[kander]

On a good day I'm pretty good at jumping and spinning (for an old geezer). I don't practice MITF so I assume I would be terrible at it. I've never been interested in competing. Mainly for two reasons: 1) I'm wildly inconsistent, and 2) I'd never be able to warm up in the time time alloted. It takes me a minimum of 20 minutes to get my legs.

[Clarice]

I don't fit the profile you're looking for, but I know a couple of guys who came from roller with previous skills. One has never taken any MIF tests, because he tested to Silver level before the adult MIF structure was introduced. He's very close on his axel and double salchow, and I've no doubt he could pass Gold MIF if he worked on them. He doesn't have to until the jumps are solid, though, because he can use the axel at Silver anyway.

The other guy competes Masters level freestyle. I don't know his test history, but he's progressed through levels over the years, so I assume he's worked to pass the appropriate MIF tests. He does doubles for sure. He's the one who would have fit your profile best, except he worked on Moves and so does fit into the current structure.

The last guy I can think of who came from roller doesn't compete - in fact, doesn't do freestyle at all. He came from a dance/figures background in roller. But he's the biggest fanatic I know when it comes to balance over the blade and proper edging - he says it's all about the body mechanics.

[Pandora]

Yes, this is the type I am interested in. If you want, (or if anyone knows of anyone else). Please direct them to forum and have them private message me. Thanks! :D

[RachelSk8er]

Ha ha I'm the exact opposite.

There are people who get stuck at certain freestyle levels because of the current test structure, too (some of whom came from other disciplines like synchro or dance and then decided to pick up freestyle). I wouldn't be surprised if I had my senior moves (and maybe a clean double toe) before I have a clean axel, but I can't move up to gold free without the stupid axel.

[Isk8NYC]

I skated as an ISI skater, so I only learned a small bit of footwork for each level. Transitions were nice, but not mandatory. Yeah, I learned brackets and choctaws, but just for fun.

Footwork was never my strong suit, yet I could do flying spins and double jumps back in the day.

My MITF skills have definitely held me back today, but skate issues have really been a bigger obstacle.

[Virtualsk8r]

I remember the day when you had to pass your figure test first -- and then go on to test the freeskate portion of it.. In order to pass your gold freeskate, you had to previously passed your 6th 7th figures and their freeskate portions -- and then pass the gruelling 8th figure test first.

I knew a few skaters who were working on double axels - but couldn't compete because they had failed the figure portion of the mandatory test for competition. Had to sit out the year and trace 8's over and over.......

[Skate@Delaware]

There is a woman at my rink (in her upper 50's) that is great at jumping-she "accidentally" did an axle one day 8O without realizing it. She also jumps & spins in both directions. But her moves are not really good. She doesn't have internet or anything-she is very lo-tech.

[saras]

There is a woman at my rink (in her upper 50's) that is great at jumping-she "accidentally" did an axle one day 8O without realizing it. She also jumps & spins in both directions. But her moves are not really good.

there's a college-student-aged skater I see when I go to noon public sessions (campus rink) who is like that - way impressive jumping skills (nearly an axel!) and just not a lot of miles under her belt re basic skating skills (I think she started lessons a year and a bit ago). She fell a few weeks ago and broke her ankle *badly* - her foot went one way and her boot got in the way of where her leg was trying to go in the fall. She looks like a "newer" skater though - despite the jumps.

There was another college kid like that a few years ago - he looked less "new" but jumped amazingly. Ditto, he didn't have a lot of the basics down - it was often kinda scary to watch him b/c he didn't seem to have that much "control" (though - really high amazing jumps).

[Skate@Delaware]

The woman at my rink has really improved in her skills in the past year. She has a gymnastic background and is VERY flexible, can do a charlotte spiral better than anyone you see on tv. She is directionally-challenged tho and I think that holds her up. She is one of the most athletic, in-shape women over 45 I've ever seen! And very nice, pleasant as well.

[mskater]

Hi Pandora, this is definitely me! I competed in gymnastics until I was 15 or so. Then switched to figure skating when I was 18. I can remember landing double lutzes and double flips before taking any of my moves tests. I later buckled down and tested up through intermediate moves so now my freestyle pretty closely matches my MITF level. That means I'll be with the lower of the two Masters groups at Sectionals, Nationals events, etc....

[RachelSk8er]

I think this is fairly common actually among male adult skaters. I can think of several whose spinning/jumping abilities (or both) are much stronger than their basic skating skills, even at some of the higher levels. It's either because they're fearless or just have the power/strength to launch themselves into the air (or both). One of the guys at my rink has massive jumps but his spins are weak and he needs to work on his moves, and another adult skater hasn't been taking lessons that long, is very athletic (and in his early 20s), and last I heard he was almost getting a double toe (no axel), but he only has pre-pre moves and can't spin well yet.

[Query]

I'm not in your category, but I basically wouldn't be able to test or compete in much of anything, because I lack the flexibility. I may never be able to do a "good" spiral, with a straight leg, upwards-curved-horizontal back. Hence I could never pass Moves, which limits what I could do even in Ice Dance. Likewise, I will probably never be able to get close enough to a spread eagle position to be able to make certain basic moves look clean.

I worked on flexibility fairly hard for at least a couple decades, but just could not make much progress. After visiting a PT/ATC I have started to understand some of the reasons - I wasn't using some of my muscles (e.g., psoas, gluts, various hip flexors), so those muscles never warmed up, and would therefore never stretch. What I did succeed in stretching - ligaments and joint capsules - wasn't the healthiest way to obtain flexibility, though it eventually did let me do shoot-the-duck and lunge, which limit some other adults. The unbalanced muscle use probably also helped cause injuries, and limited the strength available for jumps.

But when all is said and done, even if I had used and trained my muscles right, I didn't have an internal biochemistry that made stretching easy, and which limited attainable range of motion. Some people even have bone shapes that get in the way. There are a lot of people with such limits, through no fault of their own.

The requirement that one do flexibility moves like spirals to pass Moves, and the requirement (at least when I looked into it) that you pass Moves before many of the other tests and competitions certainly prevents many otherwise athletic people from doing stuff.

No one ever said that high level figure skating - or performance dance, gymnastics, diving, etc. - was doable by the general public, if they but try hard enough.

Every athletic activity has many people physically unsuited to mastering it, no matter how hard they try. The very hyper mobility that the best skaters, dancers, divers and gymnasts must have, makes sports which can unpredictability force their bodies into unsafe positions relatively dangerous to them.

I'm not at all surprised that people who have bodies well suited, by a combination of genes, diet and many years of hard and expensive training, to a sport according to current rules, would resent any effort to change it.

I suggested in this forum that there should be a form of recreational skating well suited to the bodies of most adults, akin to recreational ballroom dance, and received some strongly worded responses from people who were very unhappy at what they considered an attempt to dummy down figure skating.

They chose a sport at which they could excel. You can not expect them to want a rules change that removes their hard won advantages.

If you can do wonderful jumps, be happy at that incredible achievement! Don't worry so much about testing or competing. I watch the gals and guys competing on TV, and most of them don't seem to have much fun, most of the time. I've seen skaters fail a test and burst into tears. Why should you feel any strong urge to join that mess anyway? Do what you can, and enjoy it. You know in your heart you have worked hard and achieved something special.

How about posting some pictures here of your wonderful jumps?

[Skittl1321]

I may never be able to do a "good" spiral, with a straight leg, upwards-curved-horizontal back. Hence I could never pass Moves, which limits what I could do even in Ice Dance.

You'll be happy to know you could take the prebronze and the bronze adult MITF WITHOUT a spiral at 90 degrees. The straightline spiral pattern does not appear until adult silver. For the standard track test, they are considered the easiest moves, but USFS recognized that they could be difficult for adults, and therefore they are not required until later. The spirals on flats are the ONLY spirals required in the adult sequence.

And i'm pretty sure MITF have no bearing on your ability to take compulsory dance tests. (Though I think you do need them for free dance)

[dbny]

I think most adults were ahead in FS and lacked good basic skating skills. That's what prompted the introduction of mandatory MIF tests in the Adult track. In my experience, adults have less time to spend on the ice, and often, less money also, so they focus on what they enjoy the most, which is jumping and spinning. You don't have to be a super athlete to do a few good spins and single jumps. There was a lot of complaining when MIF was added because then adults were required to spend their limited time and money on MIF in order to test up in FS. I know quite a few adult skaters who have very nice single jumps and spins, but F and B crossovers that are scratchy and choppy and slow, F stroking that is stiff, and general lack of good knee bend. Those things can actually be harder to learn than FS elements.

[phoenix]

Hence I could never pass Moves, which limits what I could do even in Ice Dance.


FYI, Moves tests are NOT a requirement for dance tests, unlike Freeskate. Also, there are no moves requirements for adult dance competition.

There are moves requirements for standard track competition, but not testing.

[Clarice]

It's also important to remember that one passes a Moves test "as a whole". That is, if your spirals are not up to standard, you can make up for it by doing other patterns very well and getting extra points there.

[Bill_S]

I think this is fairly common actually among male adult skaters. I can think of several whose spinning/jumping abilities (or both) are much stronger than their basic skating skills, even at some of the higher levels. It's either because they're fearless or ...

That pretty much describes me when I returned to skating at 50. I loved jumping, and couldn't do much else outside a couple of three turns needed to set up a jump. Fearless (or foolish) would describe my attitude toward jumps.

I loved gymnastic moves too when I was a teenager. I'd do front flips on the lawn, and dive from cliffs in quarries.

However I'm very much the opposite now. I'm nearing 60 years old, and I really enjoy MIF moves done well. Jumping has become more trouble than it's worth for me.

[xgskate]

Well, I do think they should allow more flexibility in testing structure, which will welcome more adults to enjoy figure skating. You can certainly name me as one of the people backing you. But I would guess that you will need to find some influential people to make a difference.

I do enjoy improving my basic skills. But I strongly think that not having good grasp of basic skills should NOT be an obstacle or an excuse for not letting you learn nor one for not teaching you more advanced stuffs especially for adults who is looking for having fun.

I had very bad experience in learn-to-skate, since the coach was harshly strict on perfect 3-turns and they would not allow you into more advanced lessons before you pass lower level. It was a very big turn-off and made me very frustrated. Eventually I quit LTS and started learning by myself and was advancing faster than all the new skaters in those LTS (was never on the ice before then). Eventually it became hard to advance by myself. But fortunately I found a coach who's not in that club and had actually much more competitive skating experience than all the coaches in the local club. He taught me Sal during first lesson and I landed it. He does from time to time ask me to revisit basic skills though and I enjoyed.

If not for this flexible coach, I would have simply quit skating due to frustration. I enjoy jumps though I only do crappy singles. But the enjoyment keeps me going and it motivates me to keep improving basic skills, since I do firmly believe that better basic skills will improve my jumps.

I think people take on skating for different reasons and different people enjoy different aspects of skating. The test and competition structure should accommodate the differences and I think by doing so more people will take on skating as long term hobby. This will only help skating as a competitive sport.

[fsk8r]

I'm not one of the skaters being looked for, but I find it interesting that there's complaints about testing MIF before the Free test can be entered. In the UK there's no adult test system. We test with the kids and to the same standard. But you can take a free test without the equivalent MIF test. For the kids, it's a requirement at competition to have the MIF test of the level they're competing at (plus the Free test) but for adults, we choose our competition level. This is to accommodate returning adults who might have tested high as a kid and now have age limitations and adult learners who don't want to test. Peer pressure means that people pick the right levels.
A lot of adults choose to just test, others choose to compete and don't test, and others do both, and still more do nothing except social skating.
We might be somewhat envious of having adult tests, but I like the fact that if I choose to compete I do so based on my standard today.
And I equally like the fact that I can test up anything I might be able to do be that moves or jumps.

[Mrs Redboots]

but for adults, we choose our competition level.

For many competitions, including the British Adult Championships and the Adult Internationals, this is true, but always, always, always double-check the entry requirements, as some competitions still say "Level 4 and under" or "Level 6 and under", especially in dance. So don't take it for granted....

[fsk8r]

For many competitions, including the British Adult Championships and the Adult Internationals, this is true, but always, always, always double-check the entry requirements, as some competitions still say "Level 4 and under" or "Level 6 and under", especially in dance. So don't take it for granted....

That's good advice for anyone at any competition. There's nuances to all of them.

[Pandora]

I am lurking here (of course!). ;)
Would like to know more about British System. Did search and found the NISA site. Are the rules posted there? (I looked quickly but couldn't find anything.) Can you provide a link to the Adult Rules/Guidelines? Or may I PM you (fsk8r, Mrs. Redboots)???

[RachelSk8er]

I'm not in your category, but I basically wouldn't be able to test or compete in much of anything, because I lack the flexibility. I may never be able to do a "good" spiral, with a straight leg, upwards-curved-horizontal back. Hence I could never pass Moves, which limits what I could do even in Ice Dance. Likewise, I will probably never be able to get close enough to a spread eagle position to be able to make certain basic moves look clean.


I don't see how this would hold you back in moves, and (as others have mentioned), it wouldn't hinder dance unless you wanted to take standard free dance tests.

A lot of people can't do spread eagles. Doing them proprerly has to do with the way your femurs are set in your hip sockets (and flexibility on top of that). I've been skating my whole life, I'm not the most flexible person but I have decent spirals (nothing like a Michelle Kwan spiral, but I get the free foot above my head and have nice extension), can do a pretty nice catch foot and a recognizable Y-spiral. But I can't do a spread eagle at all unless I want to destroy my knees (some people who don't have the hip turnout force the turnout from their knees, and that's bad. Synchro skaters are doing that because you need a spread eagle to make any high level team nowadays and if you want to skate on that team, you have no choice...I wouldn't be surprised if knee problems in synchro are on the rise because of this.)

[Skate@Delaware]

That pretty much describes me when I returned to skating at 50. I loved jumping, and couldn't do much else outside a couple of three turns needed to set up a jump. Fearless (or foolish) would describe my attitude toward jumps.

I loved gymnastic moves too when I was a teenager. I'd do front flips on the lawn, and dive from cliffs in quarries.

However I'm very much the opposite now. I'm nearing 60 years old, and I really enjoy MIF moves done well. Jumping has become more trouble than it's worth for me.
I have some fear now (altho I'm only 47). When I was a teen I did gymnastics in my backyard-had my own balance beam and did cartwheels on it as well (it was regulation size AND height off the ground. What was I thinking?) I also did some trick riding on my own...again, not sure if I actually THOUGHT about the dangers, fell off the horse many times (never did these things when my parents where home)
Well, I do think they should allow more flexibility in testing structure, which will welcome more adults to enjoy figure skating. You can certainly name me as one of the people backing you. But I would guess that you will need to find some influential people to make a difference.
I really, really, REALLY wish adults could opt for EITHER the sit spin OR the camel spin in the bronze test level (US test structure). Since I blew out my back I can't get low enough on the sit-spin but a camel spin is possible. I have adults at my rink that have given up on the thought of testing because their knees are bad and also can't do a sit.

If the powers-that-be let adults substitute items of equal difficulty that might work.

[doubletoe]

It's also important to remember that one passes a Moves test "as a whole". That is, if your spirals are not up to standard, you can make up for it by doing other patterns very well and getting extra points there.

That's an excellent point. And, as Skittl pointed out, they don't even come up until the Silver test, so there is time to work on your flexibility before having to test the spirals. In fact, if a skater cannot develop enough flexibility to do a free leg-at-hip-level spiral even after a year of regular, correct stretching (i.e., leg lifts with skates on, followed by at least two sets of hamstring and hip flexor stretches each day, held for at least 30 seconds each), then that lack of flexibility may put the skater at risk for pulled muscles or other injuries when doing common Silver level elements like camel spins.

Speaking of camel spins, I also agree that the sitspin requirement in Bronze should be changed to either sitspin, camel or layback. I am personally *very* glad the layback is never required!

[RachelSk8er]

Speaking of camel spins, I also agree that the sitspin requirement in Bronze should be changed to either sitspin, camel or layback. I am personally *very* glad the layback is never required!

Same here, mine sucks. At least it was starting to look like a layback before I got injured. Hopefully it will when I get back, although I suppose I'll run into problems getting front spins back since it's my L ankle that's injured.

[BlueSkate]

I am lurking here (of course!). ;)
Would like to know more about British System. Did search and found the NISA site. Are the rules posted there? (I looked quickly but couldn't find anything.) Can you provide a link to the Adult Rules/Guidelines? Or may I PM you (fsk8r, Mrs. Redboots)???

Rules for adults depened on the individual competition and there aren't many adult only competitions within the UK. Are you interested in the NISA test structure or what's required for adult level competitions? I'm sure several of us can give you information about both :).
There's a bit about NISA tests on wiki, the NISA site itself is fairly useless and only tells you about learn to skate! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ice_Skating_Association

As for the OP, I have a friend who fits your description and I do to a lesser extent. My friend isn't quite at the level of our first MIF test but is working on his axel and has fairly solid jumps up to a flip with a hit or miss lutz. I'm pretty much the same level jump wise and getting ready to sit NISA 1 field moves.

I think it can be a lot easier for men to get jumps early like someone else said, they have more power and can get the roation just because they've got the height. My friend probably has enough height on his jumps for doubles but just doesn't quite have the right technique yet.

[dance2sk8]

xgskate:
But I strongly think that not having good grasp of basic skills should NOT be an obstacle or an excuse for not letting you learn nor one for not teaching you more advanced stuffs especially for adults who is looking for having fun.


I disagree with your statement above. Basic skills is essential when learning anything advanced, including jumps and spins. The more comfortable you are on your basic skills, the easier it is to learn MITF, finding your edge on spins (and not the toe pick), learning your loop jump (outside edge take off), back spin, 3 turn into a salchow jump, etc. Basics are essential part of skating. Without them, learning advanced elements is much more difficult to accomplish.

I am sad to hear that you had a bad experience with a coach. That definitely can make a difference in attitude and experience. I tried out several coaches before picking one, but I know with LTS, you don't get that option.

[xgskate]

Well, can you explain what is there for you to disagree with. I do think basic skills are essential for learning things advanced. Whether other people agree with you/us or not, I don't care.

I am currently practicing simple moves and plan to learn more moves stuff. But I would be happy to skate with people who simply does not want to do moves at all. I used to be one of those. Now I like moves better and am interested in learning some classical figures too.

From reading the posts in this thread, you can see that there are people who can learn jumps without doing moves. If there are such people who can learn jumps without doing moves, I don't see why people cannot teach jumps without students learning moves first. Of course, whether coaches are willing to teach in this way is the choice of the individual coaches. I am sure betterment in moves will help improve jumps. But for a person who simply does not enjoy moves and does not care about the improvement in jumps from learning moves, then it's their choice.

We should not set up a system to make people learn in particular way simply because some of us think it is better. The system should be more accommodating.


I disagree with your statement above. Basic skills is essential when learning anything advanced, including jumps and spins. The more comfortable you are on your basic skills, the easier it is to learn MITF, finding your edge on spins (and not the toe pick), learning your loop jump (outside edge take off), back spin, 3 turn into a salchow jump, etc. Basics are essential part of skating. Without them, learning advanced elements is much more difficult to accomplish.

I am sad to hear that you had a bad experience with a coach. That definitely can make a difference in attitude and experience. I tried out several coaches before picking one, but I know with LTS, you don't get that option.

[sk8lady]

You can learn things any way or in any order you want--you just can't test free until you have the corresponding MITF. If you have the time to learn the MITF, and you want to test, they really do help the rest of your skating a lot. Work on whatever you love, as long as you're aware that every basic skill you master makes your jumps and spins easier! (And don't hurt yourself, or fall on someone else!)

[Skate@Delaware]

Well, can you explain what is there for you to disagree with. I do think basic skills are essential for learning things advanced. Whether other people agree with you/us or not, I don't care.

I am currently practicing simple moves and plan to learn more moves stuff. But I would be happy to skate with people who simply does not want to do moves at all. I used to be one of those. Now I like moves better and am interested in learning some classical figures too.

From reading the posts in this thread, you can see that there are people who can learn jumps without doing moves. If there are such people who can learn jumps without doing moves, I don't see why people cannot teach jumps without students learning moves first. Of course, whether coaches are willing to teach in this way is the choice of the individual coaches. I am sure betterment in moves will help improve jumps. But for a person who simply does not enjoy moves and does not care about the improvement in jumps from learning moves, then it's their choice.

We should not set up a system to make people learn in particular way simply because some of us think it is better. The system should be more accommodating.
If I teach someone how to do a waltz jump I will use the "lingo" that is commonly used and if you have no prior moves experience, then we will have to go through THAT lesson (or lessons) first before I can teach you the jump, just so we will end up on the same page. I cannot teach you by having you mimic me, and have you flail about and do the jump poorly, and have me not be able to correct you because you have a poor mechanical accomplishment and understanding of the basics-it doesn't work that way in the skating world. Yes, you would be able to do the jump but it would be a poor and ungraceful representation of what it COULD be.

Having everyone start with the basics (moves) and understanding the mechanics from square one and moving forward in progression makes it easier to move on to the more complicated things.

You could, I suppose, have a coach teach you a "shorthand" way of things, but you would lack the solid foundation of the basics. It would be like learning to read by memorization instead of learning phonics-eventually you would reach a point where you would not progress and have to learn the phonics.

[Clarice]

You could, I suppose, have a coach teach you a "shorthand" way of things, but you would lack the solid foundation of the basics. It would be like learning to read by memorization instead of learning phonics-eventually you would reach a point where you would not progress and have to learn the phonics.

Actually, that example doesn't quite work. I learned to read as a kid by the memorization method, and have always been a very advanced reader. I suppose I "know" phonics, but I could read literature far above my age level before I was "taught" them. I can totally imagine that some people are capable of learning jumps "as a whole". However, I also agree that basic skating skills are fundamental and should not be ignored. Which is why I'm now concentrating on figures and dance. I want to lose that "adult skater" look.

[RachelSk8er]

I disagree with your statement above. Basic skills is essential when learning anything advanced, including jumps and spins. The more comfortable you are on your basic skills, the easier it is to learn MITF, finding your edge on spins (and not the toe pick), learning your loop jump (outside edge take off), back spin, 3 turn into a salchow jump, etc. Basics are essential part of skating. Without them, learning advanced elements is much more difficult to accomplish.


Very true. Basic skating skills are SO important, they're part of the complete package--there is more to a program than your jumps and spins, and I'd much rather watch someone whose skating skills are strong. If you watch a medium-large group of skaters in an adult competition, you'll have a good mix (strong basic skills, jumps/spins aren't as strong, others are even on both, some have good jumps and spins but everything in between needs work). It's the skaters with the strong basic skills who almost always place at the top, or can have a bad skate and still place well because their skating skills hold them up in the placements.

[dance2sk8]

We should not set up a system to make people learn in particular way simply because some of us think it is better. The system should be more accommodating.

In some ways, people that don't want to learn the correct basic skills and just want to spin and do jumps, pardon me for sounding harsh, sound like children. Of course that's what I want to do! But learning the foundations has made my jumps and spins so much more. How many times have I heard kids state that they want to do the fun stuff and not do the basic skills and take the time to the learn them so they can apply them to the more advanced elements? And of course the answer is you have to take the basics to learn the advanced. I'm not trying to be super brash, but the reality of skating is you have to get the basics under your belt in order to achieve said results. Also, for those that don't want to learn the basic skills and desire to go "play" have a higher risk of injuring themselves or doing the elements incorrectly and not being familiar with how the blade works. Even if its for fun. There's no reason or value in accommodating to people that don't want to learn the basics first and place themselves in dangerous situations without the knowledge. It doesn't make sense and on top of that can hold a liability factor for the club or coach if an injury occurred attempting a higher level element without teaching the foundations.

Yes, there are a few out there that accidentally do an axle or start jumping without any basic skills what-so-ever. They have natural talent for it or have no fear of getting hurt. There are those few.


Well, can you explain what is there for you to disagree with. I do think basic skills are essential for learning things advanced. Whether other people agree with you/us or not, I don't care.

And to explain further on what to disagree with, you are contradicting yourself in your early part of your statement agreeing with me that basic skills are essential but then revert back to disagreeing with it that we should accommodate people and not teach basics? Sort of confused here.

I gave several examples in my last statement to a few advanced elements that basic skills area applied to.

[Pandora]

Oops! Careful. Don't go there. Trust me. You can see what happened on the other board. Wasn't pretty.......believe me....:roll:

Oh, btw. Interesting side note. Never gotten hurt. Supposedly have very bad basic skills on ice, but have landed up to 2flip consistantly. Now working on 2axel and 3sal and 3toe. Still haven't gotten hurt. :D Wear a LOT of padding. Padded tights. Bubblewrap over knees/elbows. Would be willing to do up to 2flip without padding. Would never dream of attempting the other jumps without it. Why don't ice skaters wear more padding???? On roller we ALL wore padding. Always. Also.....every ice skater I did know who got hurt attempting jumps was taking lessons and had beautiful basic skills......Just an observation. But then, to be fair, I am a tank. (All of us "roller derby queens" are tanks.;)) Two of the teenaged girls I saw get hurt had little-to -no body fat and were not wearing any padding (of course!) :roll:

[Mrs Redboots]

I am lurking here (of course!). ;)
Would like to know more about British System. Did search and found the NISA site. Are the rules posted there? (I looked quickly but couldn't find anything.) Can you provide a link to the Adult Rules/Guidelines? Or may I PM you (fsk8r, Mrs. Redboots)???

As someone else has already said, you can find a lot more information on Wikipedia than you can on the NISA site (which figures!). Feel free to PM me if you wish, though.

Going back to the original comment, of course the reason Moves tests were brought in was due to the demise of figures. The older coaches still lament this, and my own coach, for one, periodically makes me do figures to help my basic skating (they come out more like 69s than figure 8s, though, which is why I don't do them at the Mountain Cup). Skaters who have the "tricks" but whose basic skating is sadly lacking do end up not getting very far, as judges aren't fooled!

[Pandora]

Broke my own rule. Now responding. (Hope this is a good idea.)

I agree with you that the judges won't be "fooled," so why not let us play?;) I really wouldn't mind comming in last (behind people with single jumps) as long as I was allowed to enter. (And most judges are like your coach and would probably score me very harshly just to make a point.) Oh well, at least I got to skate. It is not about the medal or trophy. I (WE) just want to skate. We are adults. If we get hurt it is our problem. This is a dangerous sport. Anyone can get hurt at anytime. Anyone.

You can disagree but please don't attack me. :giveup::giveup:

PS. Don't care how great their basic skills are. Still think skaters need bubblewrap. (Padded tights are good, too.)

[dance2sk8]

I got hurt doing off-ice jumping. It is a very dangerous sport. I totally agree. But its definitely an addiction for me and maybe its my personality, but I want to learn every aspect of skating I can. I'm also naturally athletic and pick up just about any sport pretty easily. I am very grateful for that ability.

I've been in sports since an early age, nothing dance/skating related until I got older (my parents (mostly my dad) wanted to me to be groomed into a pro basketball player, but I HATED it, and I am super tall, 6'1"). Did track and field for a long time and did really well. Now I skate and dance. I am super competitive and I miss competing. Hence, why I decided to pursue adult skating. So I know my perspective is different compared to others and that may also be where my view points come from.

No worries, Pandora. I am not trying to come across as an attacker. If I am in any ways, not my intention and I apologize. I am just super passionate. ;)

[Pandora]

Yes, a place for us.....ALL of us. There is no place for some of us to go. We can't compete. :cry: Need some sort of "open" catagory. That is why I started thread. Need to find THE OTHERS. :)
Contact me privately if you agree with me and/or are in the same boat. Don't risk the board because it might get ugly.

[dance2sk8]

PS. Don't care how great their basic skills are. Still think skaters need bubblewrap. (Padded tights are good, too.)

You know, I agree with the padding, but not sure if I'd be able to move. :lol:

[Pandora]

The bubblewrap works great!! Haven't had a problem with the padded tights except that I look SO FAT!! (I'm a "big girl" to begin with.) When I put up my ice vid I will look 10000 lbs.:lol:
He is link to me on inlines. (You can see bubblewrap in action.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFe1BR1EGr8
The instructions on how to make the pads are on the comments section.:D

[Skittl1321]

Yes, a place for us.....ALL of us. There is no place for some of us to go. We can't compete. :cry: Need some sort of "open" catagory. That is why I started thread. Need to find THE OTHERS. :)


If you want to compete, you have to meet the requirements. The rules of the organizations have worked for years and years. If you truly hate them, get involved and get them to change. And they do change- no figures, for example, revised moves for another- but I don't think many people are going to agree with your cause. Or start an organization that meets a different need (recreational vs eligible-track, yep, two organizations exist for that.)

If USFSA doesn't work for you, try out ISI- there are no moves requirements there, just one footwork sequence per level.


And those who excel in freestyle but not moves aren't the only ones who can't compete. Those who excel in moves but not freestyle get stuck too.

[kayskate]

I was in this category several yrs ago. It took a lot of effort to overcome my deficiencies in MITF. When I started taking lessons as an adult, there may have been no MITF tests, certainly not adult. I was a natural spinner and focused on that. Eventually I realized if I want to be an overall better skater, I need to get some MITF background, which I did. I took ice dance also. In a 2-hr session, I spent over 1/2 of it on MITF and dance. I did this for yrs and enjoyed it. Now I can really skate the whole rink before doing a "trick". For me, it was worth the effort.

Before I was trapped in the middle spinning w no effective way to fill the rink w beautiful skating. My other skills improved also. I would strongly recommend working on MITF/dance to anyone who really wants to become a better skater. And do it concurrently w FS. They really do go hand-in-hand.

Kay

[Isk8NYC]

I second Skittl's notion: skate in the ISI league instead. There are still levels based on skills, but far less emphasis on footwork and stroking. If you love footwork, there are events for that at competitions. Many competitions offer events that focus on spins or jumps in isolation, which gives skaters that aren't interested in performing a program an option. You still have to make it look good with strong skating - a "fling-and-a-prayer" jump won't get you very far up the podium.

However, I disagree with the "free for all" notion of competition where no one takes any tests and it's every man/woman for themselves. That's a mishmosh that no one at a lower level would ever enter, given the odds of having a former USFSA Senior skater pop in with a few well-executed triples. Honestly, I wouldn't even want to watch an event like that - it would be impossible to judge unless it were element-based.

The artistry that accompanies tricks is what makes figure skating unique and enchanting. I love to watch programs with strong basic skating skills, even if the skater's spins or jumps are slow/weak. I don't like watching skaters who look like they're about to trip at any minute, grind to a noisy stop before entering a spin, and cheat the entire jump - entrance, takeoff, in-air, and landing. The skater's not really doing the maneuver if they are doing it poorly and yes, the judges' scores would reflect that clearly. Artistry and skills go hand in hand.

Skaters with good basic skating skills continue to work on improving throughout their skating career, so starting out determined to ignore that need is ignorant in my opinion.

[Ellyn]

In some ways, people that don't want to learn the correct basic skills and just want to spin and do jumps, pardon me for sounding harsh, sound like children. Of course that's what I want to do! But learning the foundations has made my jumps and spins so much more.

I think the problem is that kids are allowed to include axels at prepreliminary level, easy doubles at prepreliminary, and all doubles at juvenile.

Adults are not allowed to include any doubles at all until gold level, which is approximately equivalent to juvenile. The prerequisite moves test is actually closer to intermediate.

For most adult skaters, this is appropriate.

But there is an athletic minority of adults who are able to do jumps at approximately the same overall skill level as the kids. And those are the adults who are not allowed to showcase their best talents until and unless they master other skills that may take several years to bring up to test standard.

They might get discouraged and give up on the sport if they don't feel welcome to showcase what they can do best.

Perhaps there would be a benefit to an "open" or "adult" Preliminary event that requires only the Preliminary or Bronze MITF test and allows the same jump content as Preliminary. And an "Way-Open Juvenile" event ;) that requires Juvenile or Gold MITF and allows all doubles.

The "young adult" category for 18- to 24-year-olds that used to be offered at nonqualifying events before the adult age minimum was lowered to 21 had more generous jump limits. Maybe take that as a model but let the more athletic adults in their late 20s, 30s, or even 40s who match that overall skill level include their best jumps.

Why tell the 12-year-old with a double salchow and iffy backward threes she can compete with all her jumps, but the 32-year-old with the exact same skill level that she can't?

If anything, it would make more sense to require the 12-year-old to wait. Her jumping ability is likely to keep improving as she improves her basic skills. The adult isn't getting any younger and is more likely to lose the double sal before she masters the threes.

[phoenix]

Okay, I'm a little confused here......you have a lot of training in roller, so you must have learned some basics there, which would at least partly carry over to the ice.

On the video you posted, you do some very nice footwork, including at least one bracket, which is intermediate level moves. There were also power pulls (juvenile), and several other things.

It looks to me, like if you really wanted to compete, you could learn the patterns & go out & test the moves quite easily, given your proficiency on the inlines. You'd knock off at least the first few levels with probably very little effort--based on that short clip, I'd venture to say that you'd get to Intermediate before the patterns even started to get very challenging. If you don't want to pay for lessons, you can learn the patterns from videos, the rule book, and probably a friend or two if you had specific questions.

So......I'm not really sure what your problem is??? It's clearly not that you *can't* do the moves--it's just that you don't want to. Which is fine, but there are some people out there who truly struggle with the footwork, and do gravitate more to jumps/spins. You don't fall into that category at all.

I'm not attacking you, I just don't understand what the problem is. In many sports, there is criteria for competing. If you don't want to fit the criteria, that's fine, but why is it such a big deal just because you don't feel like meeting it?

In adult skating there is a lot of discussion about how to deal with aging athletes, degrading skills, less flexible bodies, etc., to try to keep the sport accessible & allow for some measure of progress/success. Your situation is very different than that.

*Running from the flames now, sorry, but it's just my opinion.

[fsk8r]

I second Skittl's notion: skate in the ISI league instead. There are still levels based on skills, but far less emphasis on footwork and stroking. If you love footwork, there are events for that at competitions. Many competitions offer events that focus on spins or jumps in isolation, which gives skaters that aren't interested in performing a program an option. You still have to make it look good with strong skating - a "fling-and-a-prayer" jump won't get you very far up the podium.

However, I disagree with the "free for all" notion of competition where no one takes any tests and it's every man/woman for themselves. That's a mishmosh that no one at a lower level would ever enter, given the odds of having a former USFSA Senior skater pop in with a few well-executed triples. Honestly, I wouldn't even want to watch an event like that - it would be impossible to judge unless it were element-based.

The artistry that accompanies tricks is what makes figure skating unique and enchanting. I love to watch programs with strong basic skating skills, even if the skater's spins or jumps are slow/weak. I don't like watching skaters who look like they're about to trip at any minute, grind to a noisy stop before entering a spin, and cheat the entire jump - entrance, takeoff, in-air, and landing. The skater's not really doing the maneuver if they are doing it poorly and yes, the judges' scores would reflect that clearly. Artistry and skills go hand in hand.

Skaters with good basic skating skills continue to work on improving throughout their skating career, so starting out determined to ignore that need is ignorant in my opinion.

Whilst not getting involved in the moves vs elements debate (I love moves personally and see too many kids who can do the jumps but have poor basic skating (although the British system doesn't let them compete unless their moves catch up)) I would like to clarify how our competition system is working. We're "borrowing" the bronze, silver and gold classifications but what you are allowed to do in each level is defined in terms of elements, so bronze is no axel, silver it's allowed (at least expected among the younger adults, not so much in the older ones) and gold is where the doubles seem to go (don't quote me as I don't normally read beyond bronze as I can't do an axel). Spins are equally classified (eg no flying spins at bronze). It enables those who've got stronger elements to be in the right classification (as you say it's unfair for a beginner to compete against an ex-senior) but allows for slightly less emphasis on moves. But as everyone's saying you do need a certain ability to skate to get on the podium and I question some people's assertions about how bad their moves are. They might be lagging, but I think anyone who's landing doubles must have a certain amount of blade control, even if they're not practicing moves patterns regularly.
The real advantage of the system is that it allows people to move back down the levels as people return to skating after many years break or their bodies start to fail and they aren't able to do much more than a single jump. There aren't too many great mismatches. There are odd people who could possibly be up a category and others who might do better down a level, but on the whole it works fine.

[mskater]

Yes, a place for us.....ALL of us. There is no place for some of us to go. We can't compete. :cry:

Hi Pandora,

I believe almost every competition (USFSA) I've entered has had a "no test" division. This is essentially your "open" skating option. Granted there are required elements but nobody is forcing you to do them, I suppose you could go out and just do whatever it is you like to the best of your ability and see where the judges put you:]

I just hate to see anyone give up the sport because of certain aspects they don't like - just keep doing your thing!

[Skittl1321]

I think the problem is that kids are allowed to include axels at prepreliminary level, easy doubles at prepreliminary, and all doubles at juvenile.


Because these are non-qualifying levels, I've never seen an age restriction on them, maybe that varies. An adult could compete in any of these three levels and include their axel and doubles.

But I have to say, if they did REALLY well in it (outclassing everyone, rather than just placing middle, or even a close win), you'd have some REALLY pissed off parents for beating out there 6-10 year old.

But to compete these levels you STILL have to take MITF tests. And to be honest, while pre-pre is a gimmie (well, except for adults who can't do a spiral. I could when I was at that level, but can't anymore...) preliminary isn't an easy moves test, and pre-juv definetly isn't.

Juvenile already has an "open juv" category that adults can compete in. An adult man at our rink did compete open juv at regionals. He is an adult start skater (and a GOOD one) so he said it was his crowning moment to enter regionals. I think he plans to continue on and can hopefully enter a qualifying category


(Age requirements listed in the USFSA rulebook: Sr, Jr, Nv: none; Int: under 18; Juv: under 13; Open Juv: 13 or over; no age requirement is listed for Pre-Juv, Pre, or Pre-Pre)

[Skittl1321]

Hi Pandora,

I believe almost every competition (USFSA) I've entered has had a "no test" division. This is essentially your "open" skating option. Granted there are required elements but nobody is forcing you to do them, I suppose you could go out and just do whatever it is you like to the best of your ability and see where the judges put you:]

I just hate to see anyone give up the sport because of certain aspects they don't like - just keep doing your thing!

No test doesn't do what she wants because it limits jumps to singles no axel. She, I think, wants a category with unlimited freeskating skills, but no moves in the field requirement.

I think exhibitions are going to be the way to go for a skater who can jump really really well but has no interest in devoting time to moves. Crowds love to see jumps.

[Ellyn]

There you go, Pandora. Test up through prejuvenile moves (three tests, one of them trivial for a non-beginner) and freestyle (ditto), and then "skate up" to Open Juvenile at a local club event.

[Isk8NYC]

I wonder if roller skating tests could be used as equivalents for USFSA tests? Things that make me go hmmm.....

One note regarding the "students who take lessons get hurt more often" comment - that's obvious. The skaters who are taking lessons are learning the proper way to achieve higher results. They're pushing themselves to do better, which sometimes involves a fall. I always say that if you never fall, you're not improving.

Frankly, most of the major injuries I see come from doing nothing, lol.

[Pandora]

Ellyn, Actually, not a bad idea.... But afraid I'd get slammed by the parents :twisted: and feel weird skating against the 9 year olds(many of whom could probably clean my clock.);)

Phoenix, is a bit hard to explain. Yes, I can do the MITF to a point on roller (except any open hip thing like closed chatows/mohawks). And I know what all the moves (turns) are called.....but translating it to ice (those deep edges! GuRR!!:frus: ) That is difficult. I skate on "flats" as much as possible. Deep edges are hard for me. If you get a deep edge on any type of roller you will slip sideways (no blade to "catch" you). ;) I think it is actually MORE difficult for me than someone who has no experience since I have to overcome a lifetime of the edging that I know how to do (like breaking a wrap on a jump.) Yes, it can be done. But.......:frus::cry::roll:

[Isk8NYC]

Jo Anne Schneider Farris, who is the figure skating answer lady on about.com, is a former roller skating coach who switched over to ice figure skating. She might be able to give you some tips on changing your technique. (Just looked and it's inline skating; I assume you were on quads, right?)

http://figureskating.about.com/

[RachelSk8er]

I wonder if roller skating tests could be used as equivalents for USFSA tests? Things that make me go hmmm.....

Absolutely not. I am not terribly familiar with the roller skating test structure and how tests are conducted, but despite the similarities it is a different sport. Sure, you may be able to cross over from one to the other and learn very quickly, but that doesn't mean tests should cross over. I learned the first few roller dances and could have tested/passed them right after learning them, and have all my single jumps through a flip on rollers from just a few minutes of goofing around (can't spin on my roller skates because roller derby wheels are too wide/soft for spinning, but I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to get the hang of basic spins), but if I ever wanted to pursue roller skating more, I wouldn't expect to just cross over to their tests without having to actually do them.

[Skittl1321]

Ellyn, Actually, not a bad idea.... But afraid I'd get slammed by the parents :twisted: and feel weird skating against the 9 year olds(many of whom could probably clean my clock.);)



A 9 year old would not skate in open juvenile. They would skate juvenile. Open juvenile exists for people too old to compete in the regular level. You could test to pre-juvenile and skate up to open juvenile in local competitions. You'd actually need to test to juvenile if you wanted to skate at regionals.


I do kind of think, like I said, parents would be pissed off if you WON against kids in pre-pre and preliminary, but if you were clearly evenly matched, I don't think it would be a bad thing to be in those levels either. I would scope out a competition and see what they look like. And then if maybe at the third competition you won, well they'd know you and know that you were skating at the appropriate level.

I've skated in ISI events against children, some I won, others I did not. I felt HORRIBLE placing above a 5 year old in a stroking event (I was beat by a 9 year old) because that 5 year old had been in the tots class I teach just a year earlier. Of COURSE I'd beat her. But in that year she'd progressed enough that she was in Freestyle 1 and therefore grouped in as "low freestyle" in the event. Her parents were VERY good with her about "winning the bronze", and how proud they were for competiting against the big girls. But poor thing had no chance. (For my Freestyle 3 event, we were divided by age and a 12 year old beat me in the "Over 11 category" haha).

[Ellyn]

Ellyn, Actually, not a bad idea.... But afraid I'd get slammed by the parents :twisted: and feel weird skating against the 9 year olds(many of whom could probably clean my clock.);)

Open juvenile is only for 13 and over. If they were good enough to clean your clock, they'd be skating intermediate. The teens and parents might object if you clean their clocks, though.

[Skittl1321]

That is difficult. I skate on "flats" as much as possible. Deep edges are hard for me.

Just curious- how do you land doubles without being comfortable on a deep edge? Even a single will sometimes really require an edge to catch you from an almost fall.

[Pandora]

Nowdays roller is trying to copy ice and bring in testing (more on the ISI model with MITF as a footwork sequence in the freestyle test.) But back in the 80s when I competed it WAS a free for all. :D The judges sorted it out. Kids (adults, if there were any) who were "lesser skilled" in freestyle moves simply gravitaged towards dance. Not sure if this was "fair" but that's how it worked. Then they added A and B tracks. (To seperate the standard from the beginners). Now, they are heading towards some kind of test...But, of course, I kind of liked the free for all.....And actually, skaters were pretty good about signing up for the "right" catagory. (You were unable to enter Junior/Senior unless you medaled in Regionals in Sophomore. That is how you got there. Not tests.) Of couse, Sophomore was a huge catagory. I'll admit this would probably be impossible to do on ice.

Skittl, just watch Bonaly. (wink) ROB landing edge doesn't bother me. It is usually deep because I unwrap my leg at landing. But I try to takeoff as flat as possible. (This has worked realatively well except for 2lutz. Hate that jump!)

[Skittl1321]

I always say that if you never fall, you're not improving.
My coaches have started APPLAUDING me on my falls. I'm not amused. But i've probably fallen more than 10 times this year. Probably more than the cumulative amount of falls since I started skating. I hate falling.


Frankly, most of the major injuries I see come from doing nothing, lol.

The injury thread would agree with you.

[Isk8NYC]

It's not only the parents/skaters that would object. I skated as a 18-year old in a USFSA no test event. Afterwards, a judge came to me and told me that they "couldn't" have allowed me to win because of my age. There was no open juvenile. That's why I switched to the ISI exclusively. I have very few USFSA tests on record.

[Skittl1321]

I don't know Pandora, but I wonder if the view of an 18 year old vs a 35 year old would be different.

I mean you'd EXPECT the 35 year old to "skate like an adult".
Whereas, you'd EXPECT the 18 year old to "skate like a teenager".

So you can't LET the older teenager win, even if they are the best.

Does that make sense at all?

our area doesn't have no test, so it's moot. I think I'd rather skate pre-pre, because a lot of the competitions lump "adult" as the category so pre-bronze often skates against gold, and you don't find out until you show up. (Can I also get into how unfair it is that the better skaters also get a minute longer to BE better. It's ridiculous) At least in pre-pre my good edges and centered spins have a chance against the axels since the kids usually lack them.

[Pandora]

Yes, ISI is an idea. Going to check into it. :D Still going to bother the USFS though. Be general pain/thorn in side. ;)

[phoenix]

Phoenix, is a bit hard to explain. Yes, I can do the MITF to a point on roller (except any open hip thing like closed chatows/mohawks). And I know what all the moves (turns) are called.....but translating it to ice (those deep edges! GuRR!!:frus: ) That is difficult. I skate on "flats" as much as possible. Deep edges are hard for me. If you get a deep edge on any type of roller you will slip sideways (no blade to "catch" you). ;) I think it is actually MORE difficult for me than someone who has no experience since I have to overcome a lifetime of the edging that I know how to do (like breaking a wrap on a jump.) Yes, it can be done. But.......:frus::cry::roll:

Just as a note, in case you change your mind at all, edges just take time to develop just like anything--jumps, spins, etc. No one starts out skating deep edges. And for moves purposes, you don't need crazy deep edges. If you spent 5 minutes on edges down the ice each time you skate, in a month or less you'd see a huge difference/improvement.

[icedancer2]

Just as a note, in case you change your mind at all, edges just take time to develop just like anything--jumps, spins, etc. No one starts out skating deep edges. And for moves purposes, you don't need crazy deep edges. If you spent 5 minutes on edges down the ice each time you skate, in a month or less you'd see a huge difference/improvement.

I'm thinking the same thing - especially those first few Moves tests that would be required for you in the testing structure - the first, the Pre-Pre (or Adult Bronze if that is your category) - is considered an encouragement test - the accompanying freestyle test is individual elements - also encouragement test. The next couple of tests involve edges, cross-overs and three-turns (mostly) - you don't see rockers and counters and brackets and stuff until Intermediate and Novice, (brackets are on Adult Gold) - but really it should not be a problem for you with your roller background (which is something that does separate you from other adults trying to learn ice-skating moves with no similar background). I have seen many roller-skaters become extremely accomplished figure skater (think: Tara Lipinski and others - many ice-dancers and figure-skaters in my area do both roller and ice) -

Exhibition skating, club competitions, etc. may also have a place for you depending on where you live.

[Mrs Redboots]

Am I not right in thinking that some of the adult comps in the USA (e.g. Peach Classic, etc) have separate skills classes, so everybody goes out there and just does (e.g.) an axel or a double toe? Rather like the "Hop, step and jump" competitions our clubs run during the year, where all the skaters do a jump (ranging from a 3-jump or toe-loop at the lowest levels to an axel-loop or similar), a spin (basic upright spin up to something like a flying camel) and either a spiral at the lowest levels or a step sequence, increasing in difficulty.

[Pandora]

With no qualifying test level?8O Wow.......That would be cool!!!:D:D:D Sign up by skill (eg flying camel, 2toeloop etc.)? Must look into this....;)

[Isk8NYC]

Not all competitions offer those events, Mrs. R. Some comps don't offer them for adults.

[dance2sk8]

Just as a note, in case you change your mind at all, edges just take time to develop just like anything--jumps, spins, etc. No one starts out skating deep edges. And for moves purposes, you don't need crazy deep edges. If you spent 5 minutes on edges down the ice each time you skate, in a month or less you'd see a huge difference/improvement.

Totally agree with deep edges! Once I learned them, my coach wanted them more shallow for my twizzles (since I learned these first due to lack of remaining centered on a back spin and NOT circling, but, twizzling) and now we are refining my edges even more for my entry into the salchow and toe loop.

[dance2sk8]

Am I not right in thinking that some of the adult comps in the USA (e.g. Peach Classic, etc) have separate skills classes, so everybody goes out there and just does (e.g.) an axel or a double toe? Rather like the "Hop, step and jump" competitions our clubs run during the year, where all the skaters do a jump (ranging from a 3-jump or toe-loop at the lowest levels to an axel-loop or similar), a spin (basic upright spin up to something like a flying camel) and either a spiral at the lowest levels or a step sequence, increasing in difficulty.

I know the Buckeye Open had these type of events.

[coskater64]

The deeper edges come on int, nov, jr and sr moves. I have to say I have no idea why someone who enjoys skating wouldn't want to learn how to do all aspects of the sport (beyond me). This is why there are jump limits on gold and int/nov to stop jumping beans and to focus on the quality of skating. A good program is a balanced program where you show skills in jumping, spinning and footwork/connecting moves.

Many former roller skaters (2 men that I am thinking of)who won champ gold with 2 lutzes/2 flips currently struggle to compete currently with skaters who have better balanced skills. They still excel in their jumping but have had to work on the second mark and are often beaten by skaters with lesser jumps. This year's gold mens champ had no axel but multiple level 2/3 spins and good skating skills.

Same with int/nov ladies the 3rd place skater only had an axel in an event that allows one 2-2 combo and caps at 2 loop.

my .02 cents.

[skaternum]

Contact me privately if you agree with me and/or are in the same boat. Don't risk the board because it might get ugly.

Gotta come out of lurk mode to comment on this. Pandora, I'm sure you've been beaten up somewhere else, but you're just being paranoid, hon. The tone of this thread has been very respectful. No name calling; no personal attacks. People have disagreed with you and questioned your motivation, but that's what happens when you open such a discussion. Your postings about trying to avoid being attacked seem to be the only attack-related things in the whole thread. :giveup:

[techskater]

Actually, the age restriction has historically been that the oldest competitor can be no older than 10 years older than the nearest competitor in age. This may have changed.

[Pandora]

Disagreement is fine......but the other board degenerated to personal attacks. (Almost right from the beginning.) Not good. :roll:
This thread was productive. Got some good ideas from posters.:D Was contacted by a few people who are in the same situation who agree with me. (Also a person in the same situation who disagrees with me, but did so very politely.....which is fine. ;))
Posters here have been pretty polite. :D
Need to see other thread to understand my fear.:roll:

Still.....Was hoping to find more people in my situation. If you know anyone please send them to this site. Hoping to get an Open catagory going. If there MUST be a test, then maybe just require the adult gold MITF or above and open it up to all legal skating moves. That way adults who excel at freestyle can include their hardest stuff. (Wouldn't that be great to show the "kids.";) ) I could possibly compromise and take up to adult gold, but there is no way I can make it all the way up though the senior MITF in order to use my "hard stuff." Obviously, adults who would rather have a restriction on jumps would not enter the Gold Open even but, rather, stay in regular Adult Gold event. This would be fair for everyone and people like me would be encouraged enough to work moves because at least we only have to test up to gold. It seems to be a win-win.:D

[RachelSk8er]

It's not only the parents/skaters that would object. I skated as a 18-year old in a USFSA no test event. Afterwards, a judge came to me and told me that they "couldn't" have allowed me to win because of my age. There was no open juvenile. That's why I switched to the ISI exclusively. I have very few USFSA tests on record.

I've had the opposite experience. The oldest pre juv group at competitons around here is always teens about 15-19 (and there have been skaters as old as 21 in open juv). I've registered for competitions where no one signed up for adult silver, and the ref gave me the option of a refund, skate an exhibition, or compete in either pre-juv or skate up in open juv. I know a lot of the kids usually in both of those groups, am friends with the coaches (my coach works with some of them) and know a lot of the parents, none of them would really care if there were no other options for me to compete. I'd do fine in pre-juv even without the axel because of my skating skills, but would get killed in open juv because these kids are doing doubles and I don't even have a clean axel. My coach actually wants me to do some local competitions just because he doesn't go with me to adult competitions, and therefore has never seen me compete and doesn't know how I am under pressure in a competition situation (and knowing that would help him prepare me for competitions without him, although I've done fine on my own so far). Last year I just withdrew and took the refund since the competition was the week before ANs and I was busy getting packed/ready for that, but I'll probably do it this year since I'll have to sit out two earlier competitions d/t injury.

[techskater]

I know the Buckeye Open had these type of events.

There were requirements for test level for team events at Buckeye, though.

[Skate@Delaware]

Yes, ISI is an idea. Going to check into it. :D Still going to bother the USFS though. Be general pain/thorn in side. ;)
Competing ISI is nice, your coach is the one that tests you, and each Freestyle level has restrictions and mandated footwork sequences. Artistic is freer, and you have less restrictions.
Still.....Was hoping to find more people in my situation. If you know anyone please send them to this site. Hoping to get an Open catagory going. If there MUST be a test, then maybe just require the adult gold MITF or above and open it up to all legal skating moves. That way adults who excel at freestyle can include their hardest stuff. (Wouldn't that be great to show the "kids.";) ) I could possibly compromise and take up to adult gold, but there is no way I can make it all the way up though the senior MITF in order to use my "hard stuff." Obviously, adults who would rather have a restriction on jumps would not enter the Gold Open even but, rather, stay in regular Adult Gold event. This would be fair for everyone and people like me would be encouraged enough to work moves because at least we only have to test up to gold. It seems to be a win-win.:D
You could also call it "Exhibition Class" where everyone skates their best program. No restrictions or anything. I think something like that would really catch on, provide everyone understood any judging criteria (presentation, artistic interpretation, quality of skating, etc instead of racking up points for difficult jumps).

[Pandora]

That would work.:D A no restriction event......Of course, the judges would have no idea how to score it. :lol: Under the new system (points) of course, you'd get more credit for the higher level jumps/spins provided they were well done (otherwise negative GOEs);)...Think it would work.....

Even if it was only an exhibition with NO WINNER,that would be cool by me. 8-) At least I could do a program without being forced to single all my jumps and change all my spins.....Problem is ideally there would be no test requirement to enter and I think THAT would be the big barrier. (Ice likes to divide by test levels.) But if it were only an exhibition with NO WINNER....um...Interesting.....
Think there is something like this at Lake Placid at the end of adult week, right? It is not a competition. Just an exhibition. Right? (Was going to try to put together a program for it.) Don't need to have tests and no restrictions on jumps/spins. Now, something like this would work....

I really am planning to put together some sort of proposal for when I go to Lake Placid in August. Don't know much about this stuff. Probably won't be anyone there to pitch to, but at least I can get addresses and maybe find some adults and possibly coaches/officials who agree/are sympathetic with me. Maybe take it from there. Still like the idea of a GOLD OPEN catagory. All legal moves allowed. Open to anyone who passed Adult Gold Freestyle and above. (So any level over Adult Silver could compete.) No insult intended to Silver Skaters, but ice is crazy about their test requirements. They will want some sort of requirement. (Sigh.) :roll:

[Skate@Delaware]

It could be scored based on audience applause, like some shows you see.

A totally exhibition skate would be fun! Especially if they dimmed the lights and gave you "atmosphere" with spotlights and the like!

[Pandora]

Oh........Nice!!! Me likey, likey!!! :D Never skated in spotlight. But would like to try......;) Also, heard that you can't see the audience that way. (So it might fix nerves)..... I like it!!! :D

[Skate@Delaware]

Oh........Nice!!! Me likey, likey!!! :D Never skated in spotlight. But would like to try......;) Also, heard that you can't see the audience that way. (So it might fix nerves)..... I like it!!! :D
There are positives and negatives to skating in the spotlight
Positives:
-you can't really see the audience, depending on how much ambient light there is
-it forces you to focus on presentation, which is 90% of show routines in the spotlight (showy stuff can cover for many mistakes)
-because the spot focuses on such a small part of the rink (you) it's hard to tell (sometimes) how slow/fast the skater is going, which can be mostly good, in my opinion
Negatives:
-it's hard to see if you get blinded by the spot and you can take a fall if you are used to looking down when you land (haha this would be a good way to cure some people of this bad habit
-sometimes you can't see the wall until you are on top of it
-spots make it hard to see the hockey dots and lines, you can lose where you are in the rink if you are not careful
-you are the only one out there and the spot emphasizes it

I do show skating, and have skated in only spots and spots with some ambient lights....I prefer the latter, as I need a little background light to help with my depth perception. My rink has turned off most of the lights during lightly attended freestyles and public skates, it's almost like show skating! All-in-all, I believe it's a good experience for any skater to try.

[icerinque]

This is an interesting conversation. If you have suggestions for the adult skating committee, please feel free to contact me.

There are no guarantees that a new idea will be accepted into the adult skating structure, but all ideas are welcome.


~ Lexi Rohner
Chair, Adult Skating Committee


If you want to compete, you have to meet the requirements. The rules of the organizations have worked for years and years. If you truly hate them, get involved and get them to change. And they do change- no figures, for example, revised moves for another- but I don't think many people are going to agree with your cause. Or start an organization that meets a different need (recreational vs eligible-track, yep, two organizations exist for that.)

If USFSA doesn't work for you, try out ISI- there are no moves requirements there, just one footwork sequence per level.

And those who excel in freestyle but not moves aren't the only ones who can't compete. Those who excel in moves but not freestyle get stuck too.

[Pandora]

Thank You!! Thank you!! I will definitely be in touch!!!:D:D:D

This board has been really polite. Thanks for that!!!:D Appreciate it!! Like this forum a lot!!! :D Posters very nice!!:D

As I said, I see the point of testing, and am willing to test if that is what ice wants. But there seems to be no way for me to compete (at my "best") without first testing relatively "high" in moves (standard Intermediate or beyond). Maybe some sort of compromise....Allowed to do an "open" event but only for 2years, then must move to "regular" adult events (or something like that.) So the moves can "catch up." I'd be willing to work on the tests, then and, I think, so would the few others I have found. (Can't speak for them, but think so.)

[Kristin]

Wondering if there are any adult skaters out there whose freestyle ability (jumps/spins) greatly exceeds their MITF ability? (Thereby making testing/competing under the current structure difficult.) These would primarily be adults who are very athletic, in extremely good physical shape, and who came to figure skating from sports like gymnastics, roller skating etc. If this is you, please contact me through a private message. For everyone else, please do not lecture me or try to fight with me. (This already got ugly on another board. I am not responding to any posts.:giveup: )

Just wondering if there are any more out there.....:?:

Why don't you contact "Burton Powley"? He actually competed in roller skating as a child & (if I remember correctly) actually won a world title in it. He competes in figure skating as an adult & has won at Adult Nationals a few times. He's a real showman, good guy & coaches ice skating as well. If you google him, he comes right up in facebook (as well as in other areas since he is the President of Capital Ice academy in Iowa).

[Pandora]

Actually, I did contact him once a few years ago when I first tried ice. He was very nice and polite.:D But he seems very "into" the ice system. (Especially as he is now a coach.) He took the tests, himself. From what I know of him, I doubt he will agree with me. Willl probably lecture me and tell me to stop whining and just take the tests......:roll:

[Isk8NYC]

Just go have fun skating, Pandora. Hang out here and let us know about your progress in transitioning from roller to ice skating.

Try one of the many options others have offered, such as show skating or ISI.

[Kristin]

I really wouldn't mind comming in last (behind people with single jumps) as long as I was allowed to enter. (And most judges are like your coach and would probably score me very harshly just to make a point.) Oh well, at least I got to skate. It is not about the medal or trophy. I (WE) just want to skate.

If you passed your pre-pre FM & FS test in USFSA, you could compete "up" to Preliminary open events which allows 2 doubles + axel. You'll be competing with the kids, but heck, then you don't have to test a lot in order to try your hand at competition. If you pass through prelim FM/FS, you will be able to compete open pre-juv which is up to 4 doubles + axel (program length is 2:20). That might be able to tide you over until you figure out where you want to be in skating.

Something else you could do & it doesn't require a test in order to do it: compete in a compulsory team FS event. This is where you have 4 skaters, each does one element (no programs, no music). The only thing that determines the "level" of the group is the highest level of any skater. The rest of the skaters can be basic level for all they care. ;) And it's great fun since it is more relaxed than regular competition. And 2 of the elements are usually jump-related (combo + solo jump) so you could do one of those.

Another thing you can do? Call up a skating judge or two & have them come out for a critique of your program with the jumps in it. Your figure skating club & coach can arrange something like this so you can get feedback on your program. You don't pay the judges, but maybe provide a gift for the judges for their time (judges are volunteers).

Just some suggestions.

[Kristin]

Actually, I did contact him once a few years ago when I first tried ice. He was very nice and polite.:D But he seems very "into" the ice system. (Especially as he is now a coach.) He took the tests, himself. From what I know of him, I doubt he will agree with me. Willl probably lecture me and tell me to stop whining and just take the tests......:roll:

He's honestly the best resource I know in terms of transitioning from roller to ice. Sorry, I don't know anyone else.

Have you come out to an adult competition before just to watch? Adult Sectionals or Adult Nats would be great because then you can see a lot more of how the levels/age groups play out. I don't know where you live, but this year's Midwestern sectionals (Mar. '10) is in Indiana & Adult Nats (April '10) is in Minnesota.

[RachelSk8er]

What movest tests have you actually tried and passed?? You say you're too closed hipped for choctaws and that's one of your excuses. Well guess what? There are no choctaws until junior. That's the 6th out of 8 tests on the standard track. And if the rest of the test is strong, you can get by with a flatter choctaw pattern and still pass. It's higher than any adult moves test. If you're a good jumper, and you can get through standard juvenile or adult gold moves, you can do double sals and double toes in gold. It's not like you need senior moves before you can do more difficult jumps.

I've known people who have spent YEARS working on the same test and failed it many times before they finally passed. (I have one dance I failed 4 times before I finally passed because I always choked on the solo.) Tests aren't supposed to be something easy you can just go out and pass right away the first time with little work.

Still like the idea of a GOLD OPEN catagory. All legal moves allowed. Open to anyone who passed Adult Gold Freestyle and above. (So any level over Adult Silver could compete.) No insult intended to Silver Skaters, but ice is crazy about their test requirements. They will want some sort of requirement. (Sigh.)

Smaller competitions usually already lump all skaters over gold together into one category because there aren't enough to split off intermediate/novice and junior/senior (at least that's what they did last season at a few competitions I went to). Skaters with gold free can skate up. Still, someone with weak skating skills but good jumps would probably get killed in that group. A skater like Amy Entwistle doesn't have to jump in order to wow a crowd, most of us could sit and watch her do footwork all day.

[Kristin]

A skater like Amy Entwistle doesn't have to jump in order to wow a crowd, most of us could sit and watch her do footwork all day.

OMG, I love watching Amy Entwistle skate. She's amazing. I just looked for a performance of hers on youtube, but unfortunately she's not on there. :(

/end threadjack. Back to our regular scheduled thread! LOL. :)

[Skittl1321]

Actually, I did contact him once a few years ago when I first tried ice. He was very nice and polite.:D But he seems very "into" the ice system. (Especially as he is now a coach.) He took the tests, himself. From what I know of him, I doubt he will agree with me. Willl probably lecture me and tell me to stop whining and just take the tests......:roll:

I wouldn't say he's a great fan of the system, but he knows that if he wants to compete, he has to take the tests.

He does, however, have students working on doubles with no MITF tests. They'll have to start working on them soon.

[Pandora]

Not if I get my event.;)
Maybe I will contact Burton after all. (Wonder if he is on this board. Might be....)

[techskater]

I wouldn't count on you getting your event. Get a coach, learn the lower level moves and try to test.

[Pandora]

I agree it is a long shot. Have chosen to devote myself to jumps and not moves, (only have so much time. Can't do it all. Must choose.) So if no Open Event, then I will not be competiting in USFS, so there is no need to test.....:D Might look into ISI... Also things that don't need tests. Christmas Shows etc.

[fsk8r]

I agree it is a long shot. Have chosen to devote myself to jumps and not moves, (only have so much time. Can't do it all. Must choose.) So if no Open Event, then I will not be competiting in USFS, so there is no need to test.....:D Might look into ISI... Also things that don't need tests. Christmas Shows etc.

All our time on the ice is limited, it doesn't mean that you can't take say 5mins out a session to practice moves. I use moves as a warmup before going into the jumps. Makes me do them and gets the knees bending (I also like them). 5mins every time and you can easily gets edges and turns up to test standard. Still doesn't mean that you're not devoting yourself to jumps, but it helps broaden your skills. Jumps from difficult entries to me have a bigger wow factor than those which you can see coming from the other end of the rink.

[Query]

Still think skaters need bubblewrap.

What a great idea!

I suppose bubble wrap is lighter and cheaper than [computer] mouse pads, but less flexible and durable...

Bubble wrap has a very classy aura. Like duct tape.

Ooh. Create the next fashion wave: bubble wrap duct taped to the outside of your tights... :lol:

Love your jumps and spins. Didn't realize roller skates could spin so well.

Shows and ice theater are so much classier than formal competitions. Fitting in as many jumps per minute as you can to get the points, messing up half of of them, while doing the required moves, is much more repetitive, less artistic and less interesting. Letting people show off the tricks they want is a healthy return to the proper origins of figure skating.

Would it be fun to get together with a bunch of other classy skaters, and choreograph and custume your own ice theater show?

Sugar plum fairies in purple bubble wrap?

[stacyf419]

Pandora-
Even if you were able to get an event where you could jump at an advanced level without passing any MITF and would only be judged on jumps, you would most likely score very low against skaters who could do equivalent jumps but had deep solid edges and better form.

Usually it's the little jumping beans who have to be convinced that Moves makes your jumps better!! I know one other adult jumping bean (hi Tim!!) but his edges are fantastic and he just passed Adult Gold Moves. Everything has gotten better in my eyes because of his work on moves.

I say this because why bother competing unless you want to judge yourself against others, and if you do, you would probably continue to place fairly low if your basic skating skills aren't good.

But I wish you luck in whatever you end up doing, and have fun no matter what!

[liz_on_ice]

What a great idea!


Sugar plum fairies in purple bubble wrap?

8O I want a bubble wrap skating dress. Lots and lots of soft cushy bubbles. 8-)

[Pandora]

Laugh all you want. I am a jumping bean and I am NOT hurt. In fact, I have NEVER had a serious injury. I see injury threads on these boards all the time. I was just trying to help. So go on laughing:lol: ......So am I......

[jp1andOnly]

enough with the event with jumps. There are events like that at local competitions. Problems why this won't work.....

1. how do you determine jumping level over MITF. For example. when you make up the category do you say "must be able to do double axel but have not passed any MITF. Where is the criteria?

2. Which jumps would you choose to allow in the event. For example you might have someone working on a double toe with no tests passed, but then you have say someone double a double axel. Hmmmm..is that fair?

3. Seriously, I don't get why you won't even try a test. I get that maybe the higher tests are out of reach at this point, but start at the lower ones that you can pass with a bit of practice. If you complain about that...just go away. Geeez

Edited to add...in other countries like Russia there are no test. So here's an idea...go find a country with no tests and ocmpete and see how you do. I bet not very well because even though there is no test, the skaters work on skating skills so they can be better all around skaters....

[Pandora]

Why do you ask me questions then tell me you don't want to hear anymore (the answers) because you are sick of it.....Seems like you just want the last word. (btw. There are answers to these questions, but since no one wants to hear them I won't annoy you by posting them.) :giveup:

[fsk8r]

enough with the event with jumps. There are events like that at local competitions. Problems why this won't work.....

1. how do you determine jumping level over MITF. For example. when you make up the category do you say "must be able to do double axel but have not passed any MITF. Where is the criteria?

2. Which jumps would you choose to allow in the event. For example you might have someone working on a double toe with no tests passed, but then you have say someone double a double axel. Hmmmm..is that fair?

3. Seriously, I don't get why you won't even try a test. I get that maybe the higher tests are out of reach at this point, but start at the lower ones that you can pass with a bit of practice. If you complain about that...just go away. Geeez

Edited to add...in other countries like Russia there are no test. So here's an idea...go find a country with no tests and ocmpete and see how you do. I bet not very well because even though there is no test, the skaters work on skating skills so they can be better all around skaters....

Not disagreeing with having MITF as a standard for competition. But I've always found it odd that in the kids competitions they'll specify say no axel, but then other than flying spins, there's no equivalent with the kids who can spin well and they'll be doing Beilmanns, laybacks and some pretty snazzy combinations when some other kids in the same beginner level will just about have an upright. People worry so much about the jumps but I often think it's unfair that the spins can at the lower levels help to win the competition.
It's just plain difficult to define a standard with skating and I doubt we'll ever all be happy.

[Pandora]

I completely agree with you. :D

[jp1andOnly]

ummm..pardon? I would just like answers. If you can't define exactly what you are looking for then you wont be able to make a credible application or admendment to go to council.

Why do you ask me questions then tell me you don't want to hear anymore (the answers) because you are sick of it.....Seems like you just want the last word. (btw. There are answers to these questions, but since no one wants to hear them I won't annoy you by posting them.) :giveup:

[Pandora]

OK....
1. The criteria would be catagories A and B (as in roller). Neither would require tests to enter nor would test level disqalify a participant. (On roller we never had a problem with sandbagging. People wanted to move into B to prove they were not "beginners.")
Open A: All single jumps allowed up to and including single axel. No flying spins.
Open B: All legal skating moves allowed.

On roller, for World Class, the only requirement for the LP is 2 footwork sequences. There are your MITF. Let the judges decide who does them well and reward them with higher points....
Also let the judges have freedom to judge. No required elements except the footwork sequences. 7 jump passes, 4 spins. Jumps only repeated once in combo. That's it.:)

2. Not sure what "fair" is? There is a beginner event (A). If you are starting doubles then skating against the better competitors gives you encouragement to work harder. Remember, I am not proposing this in place of your current system, just in addition to it. If you are just beginning your doubles and really like the MITF maybe you should go to the standard adult events (like Gold), and not bother with the Open where it will be understood that higher level doubles will be included.

3. Sent video to Lexi. She agreed that to be ethical I would need to test to masters. That is at least Intermediate level. In the meanwhile, I really couldn't compete ethically (sandbagging.) Also, she mentioned that she didn't understand why someone like me doesn't find the MITF a breeze. So I guess I do look lazy to someone to doesn't understand. Let me try to explain. I am an extremely good jumper/spinner. I am not bragging. I have done these items for years, started as a child. If I should slip on a double takeoff or a spin (which I do often, believe me) I can usually "save" the item because I can quickly adjust my balance to compensate. It may not be a positive GOE,but I don't fall. On a test, (espcially an adult test), I would probably pass. Not so with the MITF. One bad edge. Sure I can "save" myself in the sense that I won't fall....but that was enough.....to fail. Two bad edges and I would definitely fail. I cannot "save" those like I can the freestyle items. Do you understand? (You probably aren't sympathetic, but do you get what I mean?)

Edited to Add: Actually, would love to live in Europe....but no money or skills to get decent job. Bummer! Stuck here.

[pineapple]

If you miss an edge on a test, you get a reskate, provided everything else was up to passing standard. Even if you have a completely off day, you always can retake the test. I know only one skater who passed through senior freestyle (so senior moves as well) without failing a test, and even she had to reskate elements on a few of them.

Why not try the first test and see what happens?

[Pandora]

That is one option. (Espcially if there is such a thing as a reskate.) Just going through options. Open Event. ISI. Shows/youtube etc. Need to investigate options....

Does anyone know if Russia still operates this way (without tests. Qualify through winning levels?) Just wondering. No, I am NOT going to Russia. Sorry. ;)

[coskater64]

You might want to learn things about figure skating before you go suggesting changes. You have 1 retry on a field moves test, but that is at the judges discretion. You have 2 retries on a free skate test, also at the judges discretion, you (the skater) do not get to pick what you retry, you are told what they want to see again. Maybe you should spend $15 and get the PSA manual on the field moves, learn the terms for ICE versions. You also might want to hurry as the moves will be getting much harder Int-Sr 9/2/2010.

Once again this in merely information, you can find it all on the US figure skating web site in the rule book.

8O8O

[jp1andOnly]

Pandora...yes they still have that..at least for dance.

I think you are being too hard n yourself regarding MITF. I did my skills test in Canada and it wasn't the best to say the least. I made mistakes all over the place, but I was able to get enough in to pass. No one is asking for a perfect MITF...no matter how much people say the judges want perfection. Slips and wiggles happen all the time in MITF.

We have a couple open categories in BC for adults. The are kinda similar to what you propose. I personally dont like them for various reasons, mostly being that people have stronger skating skills at the level they put their jumping ability. The competitions are local so they dont exist anywhere else bt the competitions that try and offer adult events...

That is one option. (Espcially if there is such a thing as a reskate.) Just going through options. Open Event. ISI. Shows/youtube etc. Need to investigate options....

Does anyone know if Russia still operates this way (without tests. Qualify through winning levels?) Just wondering. No, I am NOT going to Russia. Sorry. ;)

[Skate@Delaware]

I agree it is a long shot. Have chosen to devote myself to jumps and not moves, (only have so much time. Can't do it all. Must choose.) So if no Open Event, then I will not be competiting in USFS, so there is no need to test.....:D Might look into ISI... Also things that don't need tests. Christmas Shows etc.
I break my training time into bits: a few minutes spent on each element gets it all done, even in a 45 minute session. 5 minutes on each element sometimes is too much ;) depending on how it's going that day!
All our time on the ice is limited, it doesn't mean that you can't take say 5mins out a session to practice moves. I use moves as a warmup before going into the jumps. Makes me do them and gets the knees bending (I also like them). 5mins every time and you can easily gets edges and turns up to test standard. Still doesn't mean that you're not devoting yourself to jumps, but it helps broaden your skills. Jumps from difficult entries to me have a bigger wow factor than those which you can see coming from the other end of the rink.
working on edges helps your jumps, and believe it or not, working on jumps helps your edges, etc....

And the bit on bubble wrap had me cracking up!!! I envisioned a skater going into the dressing room to change into her "dress" only to find out that the younger girls had discovered it and had "relished popping all of bubbles of the packing they found, not realizing it was her Artistic Program costume." hahaha!!!!

Others will correct me if I'm wrong (which I might be I'm very brain dead right now) but I don't believe ISI artistic has very many requirements, but you must test to meet different entry levels. To test, it's not that difficult, but there is a dance sequence (which is a footwork sequence)-not difficult depending on the level. A coach can test you.

I prefer ISI competitions.

[Skittl1321]

working on edges helps your jumps, and believe it or not, working on jumps helps your edges, etc....

It really does! I hurt myself 6 months ago and haven't jumped since- working on silver moves (not going well) and Preliminary dances. My edges have gotten so much stronger, especially due to the dances. I finally started jumping again, and they are better than where I left them. (Sit spin too- I think the dance has taught me some knee bend).

[Pandora]

Skate@Delaware, I am definitely going to look into ISI.....maybe go there.....:D

That's funny about the dresses. Love to pop the bubbles!:lol:

Skittl, sorry to hear that you got injured. If you want, try the bubblewrap......seriously. I'm not kidding. It works. ;)

[RachelSk8er]

Figure skating is just like any other sport. If you want to participate, and you want to compete, there are rules that you need to follow. If you're not willing to put in the work required in order to follow the rules and meet the requirements, that is your choice. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by whining on every skating-related internet outlet to the same 25 people who are members of all of them. You shouldn't expect and don't deserve special accommodations, because we can't create new levels for everyone. Skate at the level that is appropriate for your level of MIF, follow that level's rules with regard to jumps/spins. That is NOT sandbagging. Work on your moves in the field in the meantime. What more do you want?? I think you just have a really bad work ethic and you're not willing to put in the effort.

[Pandora]

Guess my major problem is that the USFS Adult catagories have been fitted to suit the majority of adults, but has (unintentionally?) overlooked a small minority. Instead of wanting to include the adults it has overlooked (by even adding one catagory for them so that they can participate), the attitude is "suck it up, sister" (or brother). Not very friendly.:roll: While I do understand there are such things as rules, I also understand what de Tocqueville ment when he referred to the "tyrrany of the majority."

Question: What exactly are you (plural, collective) afraid of by adding a no test catagory? That skating standards will slip to were people will be "tripping" all over the ice? That adult skaters will stop testing moves and just skate that catagory?(btw. Doubtful, adult skater seem to love moves. From what I've seen, they're not so big on jumping, but love moves and spinning.) That the event will somehow be "unfair" even with A and B catagories? Why the problem with just one event?

[stacyf419]

Pandora-
If you are not good enough to pass even the most basic of Moves tests, your jumps are flawed. Period. You keep ignoring that fact that people continue to post.
Why are you posting at all? Get your case together for the USFSA and do it - you seem to keep posting the same thing over and over and then getting belligerent when you don't hear what you want to hear. Talk to someone who can do something about it, if it's logical and/or feasible.

[Pandora]

You are right. My jumps are flawed by ice standards and I know it. Ice gives negative GOE for wrap. I don't want to win. I just want to be allowed to enter. That is the point everyone seems to be missing.

I only reply because it is hard to be attacked and not defend yourself. But I think you are right. Probably should stop. They are not going to change their minds and, in the end, it is just wasting time. Good point.:giveup:

[dance2sk8]

You are right. My jumps are flawed by ice standards and I know it. Ice gives negative GOE for wrap. I don't want to win. I just want to be allowed to enter. That is the point everyone seems to be missing.

I only reply because it is hard to be attacked and not defend yourself. But I think you are right. Probably should stop. They are not going to change their minds and, in the end, it is just wasting time. Good point.:giveup:

Pandora, I think you continue to put yourself in a situation where a majority of the skaters here don't agree with you due to several reasons that you have provided:

1.) You don't WANT to try to improve your edges or MITF
2.) You seem to refuse the idea of taking a MITF test or avoid discussing it
3.) YOu consider yourself a lazy skater and CONTINUE to make excuses for everything you can't do (which I find very lame and point matter of fact, a negative attitude = negative results) and agree with a lot of people here...if you have poor edges, your jumping quality isn't there and how can judges JUDGE your jumps if you don't want to do them correctly when they are trained with the current system? Its not possible.

You've also seen several threads that YOU started and were closed because you continue to bring up things that are negative about skating and why you think things should change to adapt to a LAZY style of skating. We all work hard to improve, at least I know most of us do, so how its it fair to be able to enter into a competition without doing the work behind it like everyone else? You make no sense. And you are getting the same results and feedback which you even anticipated.

I skate because I love the challenge and everything entwined, edges, MITF, jumps, spins, etc.

Go back to roller skating if you find ice skating so FLAWED in your standards.

I think it best to be dropped and move on. Seriously. :giveup:

[doubletoe]

I did not want to prolong this discussion but I do want to correct a misconception that you seem to have adopted. It's not that most adults LOVE moves-in-the-field. In fact, I was one of MANY adult skaters who tried to pass their freestyle tests before the MIF tests became mandatory in 2002, just to avoid them. However, I think most of us accept the MIF requirement because we understand that sometimes you need to work for the right to do what you really want to do (i.e., compete in freestyle). Did you also try to convince your university to let you graduate in your major without taking any of the prerequisite classes and distribution requirements because those weren't interesting to you? I'm sure a lot of us hated grammar class, but we had to go through it before getting to the more enjoyable literature classes where we wrote essays. And, in retrospect, thank goodness for that!

[Pandora]

Sorry, no more replies. Going back to rink to work on freestyle. Bye all! :D (Will save moderator trouble of banning me.) ;)

The Jumping Bean :)

[icedancer2]

I think we need to go back to the Title of this thread: "Looking for Certain Adult Skaters" - to see that, gauging from the responses, those skaters are not on this forum.

There are probably a lot of people who would not be opposed to what you want to do Pandora, but unless they have contacted you off-list then I suppose you need to look elsewhere - perhaps at your own rink...

By the way, have you posted anything on youtube yet?

[Black Sheep]

3. Sent video to Lexi. She agreed that to be ethical I would need to test to masters. That is at least Intermediate level. In the meanwhile, I really couldn't compete ethically (sandbagging.) Also, she mentioned that she didn't understand why someone like me doesn't find the MITF a breeze. So I guess I do look lazy to someone to doesn't understand. Let me try to explain. I am an extremely good jumper/spinner. I am not bragging. I have done these items for years, started as a child. If I should slip on a double takeoff or a spin (which I do often, believe me) I can usually "save" the item because I can quickly adjust my balance to compensate. It may not be a positive GOE,but I don't fall. On a test, (espcially an adult test), I would probably pass. Not so with the MITF. One bad edge. Sure I can "save" myself in the sense that I won't fall....but that was enough.....to fail. Two bad edges and I would definitely fail. I cannot "save" those like I can the freestyle items. Do you understand? (You probably aren't sympathetic, but do you get what I mean?)

I agree with Lexi. Sandbaggers make competing no fun for anyone. I speak from experience.

That is one of the reasons I'm switching to ISI competitions myself for a while. They actually frown on sandbaggers there. Randy Winship (their events coordinator) has written several magazine articles on this.

[NoVa Sk8r]

By the way, have you posted anything on youtube yet?Check out her (impressive!) work here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/123firefly321

[icedancer2]

Check out her (impressive!) work here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/123firefly321

I saw it. Looks very good.

I see no reason not to test and compete.
Period.

[jazzpants]

Sugar plum fairies in purple bubble wrap?It'll go with my grape purple boots!!! :P :twisted:

[RachelSk8er]

While I do understand there are such things as rules, I also understand what de Tocqueville ment when he referred to the "tyrrany of the majority."


I've read DeTocqueville numerous times and I don't think he was referring to people who are unwilling to work in order to improve themselves...that's quite the opposite of what he meant when he came to the US and subsequently wrote of his observations...

[phoenix]

Pandora, I don't think anyone wants you banned. I just think you've gotten all the answers you're likely to get on this subject, and we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I'm actually surprised at how many options different people have come up with for you. You definitely will have opportunities to perform, even if you choose not to compete (and it is definitely a choice), which is all you say you want anyway.

Re. competing--we're not changing your mind, and you're not changing anyone else's, so we may as well move on.

We all share our love for skating in common, so let's just focus on that & enjoy!

[Skate@Delaware]

You are right. My jumps are flawed by ice standards and I know it. Ice gives negative GOE for wrap. I don't want to win. I just want to be allowed to enter. That is the point everyone seems to be missing.

I only reply because it is hard to be attacked and not defend yourself. But I think you are right. Probably should stop. They are not going to change their minds and, in the end, it is just wasting time. Good point.:giveup:
So enter as a "no-test" and take it from there, however as the years progress you will be called a "sandbagger" for not testing. Just the way it is. The only way around it is to skate shows and exhibitions, but if your regular skating is sub-par, that won't last long (as a show skater, we spend a lot of time doing edges and dance moves as part of our choreography, not just going from jump to jump to jump-that gets boring for the skater and the audience).
I agree with Lexi. Sandbaggers make competing no fun for anyone. I speak from experience.

That is one of the reasons I'm switching to ISI competitions myself for a while. They actually frown on sandbaggers there. Randy Winship (their events coordinator) has written several magazine articles on this.
I was called a "sandbagger" at one competition, even though I was nowhere close to testing....it hurt my feelings immensely! Then I had an injury and now, years later, I'm finally gearing up to test. I do hear it about skaters in the ISI circuit but not as much.

If you are interested in going the ISI route, here is the link to their different levels and the requirements for each level, on the sticky page of this forum is a link to the dance steps.
http://www.skateisi.com/site/sub.cfm?content=testing_requirements

[dance2sk8]

Ok, so I am kinda concerned about the Sandbagging thing...what if, and lets just say, I compete in Bronze, do really well, and just for kicks win the first event (be it Sectionals for instance) I have entered in my life...does that seem to be considered sandbagging??? I started skating in January, and have just been able to test up to both Pre-Bronze - MITF and Freeskate (passed with flying colors, other than a few nerves that set in and comments were made on my test sheet). I know I can do a few things some of the Bronze skaters I have seen aren't able to do. Thoughts?

[singerskates]

Well, I've tested my Preliminary Dances and passed them, am working on my Junior Bronze dances for my next tests, have passed my Introductory Interpretive (in Canada we have Pre-Introductory (no test required), Introductory (Intro test passed required to compete), Bronze(same as Intro), Silver (same as Intro) and Gold (same as Intro) interpretive levels), have had my jumps up to 2 Salchow at one point before getting 2 herniated discs in my upper back but never got to test my prelim FS or compete with jumps from 1 flip to 2 Salchow because of the injury sustained. I'm currently trying to get my single jumps under control again, along with a backspin, camel spin, layback and maybe haircutter spin that I have only done once in a club Christmas skating show before the injury mentioned above. I have yet to get my Preliminary Skills (somewhat like US MIF test) (forward 3s in the CW direction and LFI Mohawk) without hesitation or clean enough to pass (no adult standard for testing in Canada; either you pass or fail just like the kids) up to par for testing. Although, I can do backward 3s and backward double threes in both CCW and CW. I also can do Loops forwards and backwards, 10+ rev forward corkscrews (Scratch in US) and can do some different variations, 8 rev forward sitspin. For quite a while lately I wasn't getting low enough for sitspins to count because I have had super stiff muscles even with stretching; turns out that I've been suffering a severe infection and flu for months and didn't know it except for my extreme tiredness and in the last three weeks my glands were very swollen and sore. I even stayed home this week from skating trying to get over it. Yes, I did go to the doctor/clinic and got antibiotics for the infection. But for the sinuses I had to buy Liquid Advil Cold and Sinus because I was extremely dizzy, more dizzy than any spin I have done on ice at any time. The Advil Cold and Sinus also helped to lower my fever, chase my headache away. I still have a tender throat though. Need more time to get well.

So I guess I'm one of those skaters who can do more in the freeskate category than Skills (what we call US Moves in Canada).

[Skittl1321]

Ok, so I am kinda concerned about the Sandbagging thing...what if, and lets just say, I compete in Bronze, do really well, and just for kicks win the first event (be it Sectionals for instance) I have entered in my life...does that seem to be considered sandbagging??? I started skating in January, and have just been able to test up to both Pre-Bronze - MITF and Freeskate (passed with flying colors, other than a few nerves that set in and comments were made on my test sheet). I know I can do a few things some of the Bronze skaters I have seen aren't able to do. Thoughts?

I think that you will be okay as a Bronze skater for your first competition. You really are an adult start skater- just a very very naturally talented one. However, compare your skating to mine. I'm getting ready to take my bronze free (not sure if I will pass). Will it really be FUN for you to beat skaters like me a lot? Be bronze for sectionals/nationals this year, then move up! The silver moves might hold you for a little bit, but I bet not too long. Evfen if you are a high level bronze skater, I think it's an appropriate level for you. Now I know you're a ton better than you were last time I saw you, but I think you'll look like somone getting ready to test silver, not someone who should have done it ages ago.

[jp1andOnly]

no, this is not what the skater is looking for. You dont have doubles (if you saw her youtube video you would see she has a few doubles) You have skills appropriate for your freeskate level. If you think your freeskate level is high, then test the prelim test. Many skaters at your level are on the EXACT same test levels.


Well, I've tested my Preliminary Dances and passed them, am working on my Junior Bronze dances for my next tests, have passed my Introductory Interpretive (in Canada we have Pre-Introductory (no test required), Introductory (Intro test passed required to compete), Bronze(same as Intro), Silver (same as Intro) and Gold (same as Intro) interpretive levels), have had my jumps up to 2 Salchow at one point before getting 2 herniated discs in my upper back but never got to test my prelim FS or compete with jumps from 1 flip to 2 Salchow because of the injury sustained. I'm currently trying to get my single jumps under control again, along with a backspin, camel spin, layback and maybe haircutter spin that I have only done once in a club Christmas skating show before the injury mentioned above. I have yet to get my Preliminary Skills (somewhat like US MIF test) (forward 3s in the CW direction and LFI Mohawk) without hesitation or clean enough to pass (no adult standard for testing in Canada; either you pass or fail just like the kids) up to par for testing. Although, I can do backward 3s and backward double threes in both CCW and CW. I also can do Loops forwards and backwards, 10+ rev forward corkscrews (Scratch in US) and can do some different variations, 8 rev forward sitspin. For quite a while lately I wasn't getting low enough for sitspins to count because I have had super stiff muscles even with stretching; turns out that I've been suffering a severe infection and flu for months and didn't know it except for my extreme tiredness and in the last three weeks my glands were very swollen and sore. I even stayed home this week from skating trying to get over it. Yes, I did go to the doctor/clinic and got antibiotics for the infection. But for the sinuses I had to buy Liquid Advil Cold and Sinus because I was extremely dizzy, more dizzy than any spin I have done on ice at any time. The Advil Cold and Sinus also helped to lower my fever, chase my headache away. I still have a tender throat though. Need more time to get well.

So I guess I'm one of those skaters who can do more in the freeskate category than Skills (what we call US Moves in Canada).

[RachelSk8er]

Ok, so I am kinda concerned about the Sandbagging thing...what if, and lets just say, I compete in Bronze, do really well, and just for kicks win the first event (be it Sectionals for instance) I have entered in my life...does that seem to be considered sandbagging??? I started skating in January, and have just been able to test up to both Pre-Bronze - MITF and Freeskate (passed with flying colors, other than a few nerves that set in and comments were made on my test sheet). I know I can do a few things some of the Bronze skaters I have seen aren't able to do. Thoughts?

I don't think you have anything to worry about. If anyone accuses you of sandbagging, they're just jealous. You're at the appropriate level for someone who hasn't been skating that long, and after a year if you do well, I'm sure you'll move up because you're looking for more of a challenge. People get accused of sandbagging more when they medal in the same level at ANs a few years in a row, it's obvious that they could be competitive at the next level, and there is no real reason why they haven't moved up. But for your first year, you should be fine.

[dance2sk8]

I think that you will be okay as a Bronze skater for your first competition. You really are an adult start skater- just a very very naturally talented one. However, compare your skating to mine. I'm getting ready to take my bronze free (not sure if I will pass). Will it really be FUN for you to beat skaters like me a lot? Be bronze for sectionals/nationals this year, then move up! The silver moves might hold you for a little bit, but I bet not too long. Evfen if you are a high level bronze skater, I think it's an appropriate level for you. Now I know you're a ton better than you were last time I saw you, but I think you'll look like somone getting ready to test silver, not someone who should have done it ages ago.


Skittle, thanks! You are also very talented. I looked up to you when we were at the adult camp. Still do since you have been skating a while. Trust me, I know how new I am to this. You taught me the the rocker that weekend!!! :D Also, thanks for the encouragement. I hope I do get to see you again this coming year. :)

[dance2sk8]

I don't think you have anything to worry about. If anyone accuses you of sandbagging, they're just jealous. You're at the appropriate level for someone who hasn't been skating that long, and after a year if you do well, I'm sure you'll move up because you're looking for more of a challenge. People get accused of sandbagging more when they hang out at a level for a number of years when it's obvious that they could be competitive at the next level, and there is no real reason why they haven't moved up. But for your first year, you should be fine.

Ok, cool. I am hoping to be silver either by end of next or the following. I do have a goal of becoming an Adult Champion. Skittle can probably vouch for my dedication to the sport since I started. I train like the pros! LOL! Not quite, but spend most of my free time at the rink skating and practicing, or at dance/ballet, or some other work out to enhance my skating. I am an addict. :: shrug :: I picked skating because of the challenge it holds and my new addiction to being in the air and landing on my blade for jumps. That's so fun.

[singerskates]

no, this is not what the skater is looking for. You dont have doubles (if you saw her youtube video you would see she has a few doubles) You have skills appropriate for your freeskate level. If you think your freeskate level is high, then test the prelim test. Many skaters at your level are on the EXACT same test levels.

The reason you've never seen me do a double Salchow, is that I learned it after the 2004 Canadians but was severely injured (herniated discs from work place accident where I totally ripped up my neck, shoulders and arms February 14th, 2005 before my first competition of the year. I only did the double at my old club during May & June of 2004 and up to January 2005. I did compete at the 2005 Adult Canadians but I should have pulled out of it and my other competitions that winter and spring because I couldn't check anything, not even my waltz jumps. I also should have not gone back to work only to have my employer make my injuries worse. I should have listened to my then coach that very day and saw a chiropracter to try to fix the problem and should have had xrays and MRIs done too, when I went to the rink to tell him I couldn't get a lesson because I got injured at work. I don't know if I'll ever get the double Salchow back. And this is also partially why I couldn't compete at the 2006 Adult Canadians.

I'm not ready to test because I can't get a consistant back spin with 3 revs or more, not near at least 90 percent on my loop, flip and lutz jumps (I know I don't need it yet but I'm rotating it with a slight touch down and a few times I land it clean) and camel spin needs a few more revs and tighter centering so that if I end up getting nervous for the test, I still can do it under pressure. I feel way more stress and pressured testing then when I compete. So until I feel like I'm just about ready for the Junior Bronze test, I'm not testing Prelim because my nerves in tests are really, really, really bad. Competition is a complete joy compared to testing for me.

[jp1andOnly]

I dont think doing it possible a handful of times counts. If you came back form injury and were able to do it agian, possibly buyt again thats not what this person was talking about. They were wanting people with a higher level right at this moment then their skill level.

At this moment your freeskate level is equal with your skill level. Keep trying and practicing and you will improve. It just takes baby steps..

The reason you've never seen me do a double Salchow, is that I learned it after the 2004 Canadians but was severely injured (herniated discs from work place accident where I totally ripped up my neck, shoulders and arms February 14th, 2005 before my first competition of the year. I only did the double at my old club during May & June of 2004 and up to January 2005. I did compete at the 2005 Adult Canadians but I should have pulled out of it and my other competitions that winter and spring because I couldn't check anything, not even my waltz jumps. I also should have not gone back to work only to have my employer make my injuries worse. I should have listened to my then coach that very day and saw a chiropracter to try to fix the problem and should have had xrays and MRIs done too, when I went to the rink to tell him I couldn't get a lesson because I got injured at work. I don't know if I'll ever get the double Salchow back. And this is also partially why I couldn't compete at the 2006 Adult Canadians.

I'm not ready to test because I can't get a consistant back spin with 3 revs or more, not near at least 90 percent on my loop, flip and lutz jumps (I know I don't need it yet but I'm rotating it with a slight touch down and a few times I land it clean) and camel spin needs a few more revs and tighter centering so that if I end up getting nervous for the test, I still can do it under pressure. I feel way more stress and pressured testing then when I compete. So until I feel like I'm just about ready for the Junior Bronze test, I'm not testing Prelim because my nerves in tests are really, really, really bad. Competition is a complete joy compared to testing for me.

[PinkLaces]

Ok, cool. I am hoping to be silver either by end of next or the following. I do have a goal of becoming an Adult Champion. Skittle can probably vouch for my dedication to the sport since I started. I train like the pros! LOL! Not quite, but spend most of my free time at the rink skating and practicing, or at dance/ballet, or some other work out to enhance my skating. I am an addict. :: shrug :: I picked skating because of the challenge it holds and my new addiction to being in the air and landing on my blade for jumps. That's so fun.

I'll admit to being jealous of how quickly you are picking things up, but I wouldn't accuse you of sandbagging. I hope you will be at AN, because I am looking forward to seeing you skate...even if you kick my butt ;0)