To Judge or to Coach?

[katz in boots]

I really wanted to get into coaching however was told I'd have to travel interstate to get my hours standing in with a 'mentor' before that could happen. Mega expensive, 40 hours standing in required, as well as training course required plus further interstate trips - all at my own expense. Add insurance on top of that.

So I decided to stick with judging our version of learn to skate. Local judge has been encouraging me to go for State judge status, which involves
3x interstate trips for 3 days at a time in a year. Might or might not get a grant to cover airfares, accommodation etc.

Suddenly things at our rink have changed and I am being encouraged to register as an unqualified coach for learn to skate & maybe adult beginners. No standing in hours or training courses, but around $800 insurance. And any skaters who entered comps would have to be entered under another coach's name.

I really am not sure what to do. I enjoy coaching, I enjoy judging. I can't afford for either to cost me much. Husband won't be too happy if it takes up too much of my time either.

I judge I won't earn any money for it, but it seems like most of my expenses could be covered. If I coach, I pay for insurance (and probably one day for accreditation) but can earn some money for it.

The other thing is that I am in skating because I love to skate. That is my prime concern, the joy it gives me. I don't want to get so mired in either coaching or judging that it stops me from focussing on my own skating.

Have others here been faced with deciding whether to judge or coach? What did you decide, and what helped you make your decision?

[vesperholly]

The other thing is that I am in skating because I love to skate. That is my prime concern, the joy it gives me. I don't want to get so mired in either coaching or judging that it stops me from focussing on my own skating.
I think that might be your answer right there. When I started teaching LTS classes, the focus on my own skating went downhill quite quickly. Judging is probably the least strenuous, because it's not a weekly commitment.

[Mrs Redboots]

It depends how much you enjoy sitting in a cold ice-rink watching mediocre skaters going through pre-bronze routines! By which comment you can gather that I'd rather teach, I think, if I was going to do either.

[Ellyn]

Do you enjoy interacting directly with the skaters? That would point toward coaching.

What kind of analytical thought processes appeal to you?

Do you like analyzing what was good and bad about an element and synthesizing the good and bad aspects of whole programs? Judging is all about those kinds of processes.

Do you like figuring out what's wrong with an element and coming up with strategies to help the skater improve it? That would be the process for coaching.

Do you think you might someday want to increase your commitment to coaching or judging? With coaching you can't really go any further up the ladder than somewhere below your own skill level. With judging, advancing further would have more to do with your mental skills than your skating skills, although those help with the mental understanding.

The expenses and time commitments would also be considerations for increased involvement.

[Isk8NYC]

Once you start teaching/coaching, your own skating decreases unless you make an effort to carve out "me time." Some of it is caused by scheduling - you're there on a freestyle to skate and a student needs a lesson, so you put off your own skating to help the student. However, once you start teaching, your basic skating will improve because you have to demonstrate the proper technique slowly to your students. You just won't be able to skate for yourself as much.

It's also natural to feel self-conscious: if you're not skating at your peak, you may not feel comfortable skating imperfectly in front of other coaches, students and parents. I like skating where no one knows my name, lol. I feel free to try new things and screw up without anyone gossiping.

I was skating on an EMPTY evening session at my current rink with two other skaters I knew and trusted. They were incredibly supportive and fun to be with, which made the session a joy.

That changed when a few other people started skating on that session. The first night, I felt like I was being watched but I dismissed it as paranoia. It wasn't paranoia: those people came up to me later and said "We've never seen you really skate!" It just upped my self-consciousness and I stopped skating at that session when my two friends dropped out.

I've never been a judge, so I don't know the real impact, but if you have to travel that will cut down on your ice time.

[Query]

I've only volunteered to help, so I can't really answer this well.

But it's really weird a rink would make you pay $ for insurance in order to volunteer to help! Mine didn't.

If there are other rinks in the area, ask if they let you volunteer for free. The most likely rinks for this are outdoor rinks, but some indoor rinks take uncertified, uninsured volunteers too. If you skate around Maryland, VA or DC, I could provide you an old list.

I bet a hockey club would let you volunteer to help without insurance.

If you are good enough, maybe your coach will let you help him/her teach LTS. That's probably the best situation, the coach might give you teaching tips, and he/she might give you a referral to the PSA or some other skating organization that could make you a pro too.

A lot of pro coaches don't seem to have much fun. There are all sorts of professional limits on giving people free help (because it might look like soliciting another coach's students), and most of us wouldn't feel comfortable asking a pro for suggestions or to act as a dance partner without paying them.

A lot of rink guards give quick free informal lessons to beginners...

On the other hand, if you are good, you can earn real money at coaching, no matter what you currently plan. OTOH, judges are volunteers forever.

Here's an idea: Develop a set of free written and video lessons for publication or publicity through this forum. We will love you. :lol:

Or get a group of friends together who have fun teaching skills to each other. I used to be in a group that did that some, and also sometimes took group lessons together oriented towards us.

[phoenix]

I've only volunteered to help, so I can't really answer this well.

But it's really weird a rink would make you pay $ for insurance in order to volunteer to help! Mine didn't.

If there are other rinks in the area, ask if they let you volunteer for free. The most likely rinks for this are outdoor rinks, but some indoor rinks take uncertified, uninsured volunteers too. If you skate around Maryland, VA or DC, I could provide you an old list.

If you are good enough, maybe your coach will let you help him/her teach LTS. That's probably the best situation, the coach might give you teaching tips, and he/she might give you a referral to the PSA or some other skating organization that could make you a pro too.


The OP is in Australia.

She's not talking about volunteering; she's talking about coaching for pay, which, where she lives, requires the insurance. BTW, that's also a requirement in the U.S., though ours isn't as costly (though I don't know what the conversion is; 800 sure sounds like a lot!!).

re. the questions--you've been given some good advice. I coach, and am also still training, & it's very difficult to get in my own practice time. On the other hand, my coaching income pays for my ice time & lessons, plus gas & groceries. Plus it's very rewarding!

I personally don't think I would enjoy judging.

[RachelSk8er]

I went through the same thing with coaching. I coached synchro on top of my full-time job (4 hrs on Saturdays, 1.5 on Sundays, 2 hrs on Tuesdays plus worked with a collegiate team an hour away once every other week). On top of that, my boyfriend at the time was into college hockey and wanted me to go with him to watch games (at the same rink) on Friday/Saturday nights when the team was home. On top of that, the board for the synchro team I coached also didn't really want me skating at our rink because they thought it was "bad" for the kids to see that I was on the same moves/dances as some of the skaters on the team (which was just strange, it's not like I was low in either test, and I was hired to coach synchro [where I had competed at the senior level], not to coach moves/dance). I really missed skating for myself and was NOT happy. The last thing I wanted to do after all the time I spent at the rink to begin with was trek across town to a different rink to find ice for me to skate on.

Moral of the story--if you like skating for you, make sure you carve out time for it.

[dbny]

ITA with those who have said it's hard to continue your own skating when you are coaching. Another drawback I just thought of, which may not apply to everyone, but is certainly affecting me, is that I have been spending my winters working long weekends indoors on crowded public sessions. After not being sick in the winter for three years, I have spent the last three (since I began this job indoors) with pneumonia (year 1), sinus infection & ears blocked for 5 weeks (year 2), and so far this year just a sinus infection. Being exposed to crowds, lots of kids, indoors in the cold is just not very healthy! If I were still just skating and not coaching, I would not go near those public sessions.

[herniated]

I was seriously looking into judging. And discovered for myself that it was VERY stressfull. Especially when I was judging the same kids that I skated with on freestyle sessions. In addition to that I wasn't able to put in the time needed to trial judge at this point in my life.

But...today I was just thinking about several other women who I know who have the time and may really enjoy judging AND be quite good at it!!

[daisies]

I have been judging for about 13 years, and I love it. It hasn't cut into my skating time at all. If anything, it has enhanced my skating because it forced me to understand the rules backward and forward!

I also coached for about 3 months. I loved my students, but in the end coaching was not for me. It *did* cut into my skating -- a lot. And not just time-wise, but also in the fact that it was tiring to be on my feet all day, and it potentially could have broken down my skates.

But guess what ... now you can coach *and* judge. Per new USFS rule JR 4.08(D): "U.S. Figure Skating appointed judges may teach skaters who have not passed any U.S. Figure Skating tests. Such teaching must be as part of a learn-to-skate or Basic Skills group lesson program. Judges who teach under these guidelines maintain their eligibility to judge."

[kayskate]

I have been coaching for a few yrs now. I am not a judge although in the US, LTS instructors test their own students in many cases. I like coaching. However, it is a job w a lot of the same problems as any other job. it is also very competitive. In a down econo, it is hard to break in w privates, depending on your level. Again this is US. There are a lot of reasons why i don't skate much for myself anymore, but coaching is one of them.

I am going to school at night to get a license to work in the med field. As soon as I finish, I plan to quit coaching and skate for pleasure. BTW, coaching is a great PT job. For the hrs I work, I make decent $.

Kay

[Mrs Redboots]

But guess what ... now you can coach *and* judge. Per new USFS rule JR 4.08(D): "U.S. Figure Skating appointed judges may teach skaters who have not passed any U.S. Figure Skating tests. Such teaching must be as part of a learn-to-skate or Basic Skills group lesson program. Judges who teach under these guidelines maintain their eligibility to judge."
That's only USFS, though - might not apply elsewhere in the world. Having said that, where USFS leads, other associations are apt to follow, but not always.

[Skate@Delaware]

I have taught LTS and also judged Basic Skills competitions (at my rink which was difficult). I prefer teaching and plan on becoming a coach (and still teach LTS) once I've finished with school, become employed, passed my Bronze-level moves, etc.

I much prefer teaching over judging. My coach is the same, she has done both. She still manages to skate for herself (she skates on a synchro team and is working on her gold test stuff) as well as coaching evenings and weekends.

[dbny]

That's only USFS, though

ISI allows coaches to judge, meaning they can take the tests to become judges, and stil coach.

I have taught LTS and also judged Basic Skills competitions (at my rink which was difficult).

USFS Basic Skills comps have long used coaches to judge, but those coaches are not "certified" judges, just coaches pitching for an informal basic skills competitions which do not require real judges.

[Skate@Delaware]

USFS Basic Skills comps have long used coaches to judge, but those coaches are not "certified" judges, just coaches pitching for an informal basic skills competitions which do not require real judges.
Yes, I should have clarified that, I'm under the influence of the flu still, sorry for any confusion.

[Query]

This is off topic if the OP is in Australia, but am I correct that USFS Basic Skills coaches don't need USFS or PSA certification?

I think you just have to be approved by the person running the rink's Basic Skills program, who registers you as a Basic Skills Coach (I think for $10 - see http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=119 ), with no other requirements whatsoever. Some rinks use people who can barely skate to teach (or in some cases, assist teaching) the beginning classes, though most try to make sure the instructors at least know what they are teaching.

I think you then become eligible to get the USFS Basic Skills manuals - in fact you get the manuals with the registration, with no extra fee. And, oddly enough, it is pretty much the only way to obtain the USFS Basic Skills Instructor's manual - which is the only USFS manual that describes most of the moves and jumps, up through single jump level, as I've pointed out before. Non-Basic Skills coaches and other USFS members are not eligible to buy that manual. (It's actually a great manual, that would benefit many students to read.)

BTW, the $10 fee includes insurance, somewhat less than $800.

If I am right, that is a relatively fast and cheap route towards becoming a coach (with strong limitations on what you can teach), provided you can get the person in charge to register you.

Even if I am right, complete different rules probably apply in Australia.

Alas, the rink where I volunteered couldn't afford to register all the BS coaches, and I wasn't.

[Skittl1321]

you are right- in the US becoming a basic skills instructor costs $10-12ish. But it has to be through a registered basic skills program, and you can only coach on basic skills sessions.

USFSA says that the insurance covers private lessons as well, but further research showed that that meant private DURING basic skills sessions- essentially group classes of 1... not on freestyle or club ice. Our rink has a "all public and freestyle sessions are basic skills sessions" wording on their schedule, but I don't believe that would hold up under scrutiny by the insurer, I really think it will only be during the time that the kids are registered by he program, so I won't take on privates since I do not carry seperate insurance.

However from when I looked at it, I believe insurance through ISI or PSA is less than $100, plus the membership fee, so $800 is not a US quote.


I would not volunteer without being registered as a Basic skills coach. If you volunteer enough that you are seen by the rink community as a regular instructor, your liability is going to be the same as if you were registered. If the rink can't afford it, pay it yourself. It's less than $15, as you said yourself. (I'm not a paid instructor. I decided the taxes weren't worth it, so I trade for lessons- and thus am compensated, thus making me not a true volunteer)

[dbny]

Alas, the rink where I volunteered couldn't afford to register all the BS coaches, and I wasn't.

You could offer to pay for your registration yourself.

You're right about the Basic Skills Instructor's Manual. It's a great little book. Remember though, that the descriptions of elements are correct, but the level to which they must be executed is fairly low.

I wish my current school would register their coaches and make them read the book! Most of the coaches who were competitive skaters for foreign countries don't have a clue what the Basic Skills curriculum is, or how to teach it. We've got one who tried to have his B1 kids do spirals and fast F slaloms, followed by F power pulls. Then he wanted them to do B slaloms. These kids could barely eke out 3 B swizzles in a row! He kept them moving, but I doubt they learned much.

[katz in boots]

I enjoy both, in different ways. I like working with people and helping them. I do that informally anyway.

Going off at a tangent, this morning I told a fellow adult skater I sometimes help to start walking on her toe-picks so we could work on jumps. She said; "what me, jump? Never". 2 minutes later I had her doing side hop jumps ! I love that sort of result!

Judging is nice because I feel I am upholding the standard at our rink. Judging is hard work, and not always nice (I hate it when they cry), but no association/club can do without judges.

Apparently the public liability insurance is that expensive here in Australia. It is more expensive if you plan to continue entering competitions yourself, for some reason. Not sure what it is if you only coach & not compete. I haven't researched it for myself yet, only going on what I was told.

Much as I love coaching, I suspect the insurance fee + time commitment would not be a popular choice with my DH & DD.

[Ellyn]

USFS Basic Skills comps have long used coaches to judge, but those coaches are not "certified" judges, just coaches pitching for an informal basic skills competitions which do not require real judges.

True. And some just pull advanced teen skaters or adult skaters to do the judging.

It's a great way for US skaters to try out the judging process and see whether judging is something you'd be interested in doing more formally.

[slusher]

Costs aside, I found that the more coaching I did, the more my skating suffered. It is simply the toll on the body. I've gone back to coaching at one place and skating at another on separate days. It means less skating time and less coaching $$, but I am in better shape overall.

I'm a bad judge, I cheer and clap for skaters. I'm a coach at heart.

[Skate@Delaware]

The one competition I judged at left a sour taste in my mouth. The head judge (from somewhere else) basically briefed us that:
-no skater was good enough for a 6.0
-the top mark in each category would be a 4.7

This was for a basic skills competition, and we used ordinals. I was like 8O????? ok, yeah whatever.

For coaching, at my rink we are also covered to coach at the birthday parties on public skating-they are considered "group lessons" and we are on payroll as rink employees and covered under the rink insurance. If I continue doing this next year (which I doubt because of my clinical schedule) I will obtain PSA insurance-then I can also coach on my own time (I will need the money hahaha).

I much prefer coaching over judging but I could get into judging in a few years-I like the technical aspect of it.

[Skittl1321]

For coaching, at my rink we are also covered to coach at the birthday parties on public skating-they are considered "group lessons" and we are on payroll as rink employees and covered under the rink insurance. If I continue doing this next year (which I doubt because of my clinical schedule) I will obtain PSA insurance-then I can also coach on my own time (I will need the money hahaha).


I go back and forth over whether I want to do birthday parties without my own insurance. Our rink says they are "group lessons" as well, but because the rink is SO lax in everything, I always wonder if I'm really covered, or they are just telling me I am. So for now, I'm not doing them... I will do Girl Scout groups, if there is no other coach available, because as a registered Girl Scout volunteer, I've checked and I am covered under THAT insurance.

[Isk8NYC]

I'm a bad judge, I cheer and clap for skaters. I'm a coach at heart.
Me too!!! I get all caught up in the program and forget to watch for the elements.

The ISI requires judges to take tests in order to be certified for all competitions. There are not supposed to be any "step in" judges. The ISI annual district seminars always include a session on judging, including judging videos of skaters at various levels.

USFSA Basic Skills programs don't require any certification, AFAIK.

[icedancer2]

I'm a judge and I like it - I have learned so much about skating that I never thought of so much as a skater - like if I see something on a test that I know if wrong, I really have to figure out what the skater is doing wrong, how to analyze it very quickly and decide whether it is acceptable at the level - in the beginning of judging I would ask my coach and say, "I saw this on a test - what are they doing?" and she would explain it to me.

This comes up especially in Moves. Freestyle is easier as the skater usually has the jump or doesn't, etc.

I'm glad the USFS has determined that judges can teach LTS - I haven't done it yet but if I need to I know that I can do that and I think it would be fun!

[Query]

The US is so sue-happy, maybe USFS subsidizes the $10/year Basic Skills deal. Unless the included insurance doesn't protect coaches and/or rinks as well as they hope.

An average athlete gets a medically reported injury twice a year. [Arnheim, Arnheim's Principles of Athletic Training.]

If one in 100 parents sues, twice a year, and each suit costs thousands of dollars to fight, and some win, there is no way unsubsidized insurance can cost USFS that little, unless I'm missing something.

I've always wondered how well coaches understand judging criteria. Since the materials sold to coaches and judges (in the US) are somewhat different, maybe they sometimes guess wrong.

[katz in boots]

I'm a bad judge, I cheer and clap for skaters. I'm a coach at heart.

I didn't want to trial judge at our last comp for that very reason! I wasn't competing, and looked forward to leading the cheering - especially for the lower levels of learn to skate, where the audience have no idea what to clap, I like to get them going.

It's odd, because I wish I could do all 3: skate, coach & judge, and I can, technically. I don't think I can give my all to them all at once though.

[Mrs Redboots]

ISI allows coaches to judge, meaning they can take the tests to become judges, and stil coach.

As may be, but ISI is pretty-much USA-specific, too. It is different in different countries, and one needs to check with one's own national organisation (NISA, etc) what the precise regulations in your country are. Here (UK), for instance, coaches judge the SkateUK and passport levels, usually in the context of a class or a lesson, but do not judge the "real" tests. On the other hand, we only need one judge until level 7 or above, whereas I believe that under USFSA regulations, all tests require two judges.....

[Ellyn]

whereas I believe that under USFSA regulations, all tests require two judges.....

No tests require two judges, because what would happen if they disagree? :)

The first one or two tests in each discipline require only one judge, although they can also be judged with three.

The rest of the tests require three judges to judge them. If a majority, i.e., two, give passing marks, then the skater passes the test. But there have to have been three judges on the panel -- you can't have a panel of two judges.

[Mrs Redboots]

No tests require two judges, because what would happen if they disagree? :)

The first one or two tests in each discipline require only one judge, although they can also be judged with three.

The rest of the tests require three judges to judge them. If a majority, i.e., two, give passing marks, then the skater passes the test. But there have to have been three judges on the panel -- you can't have a panel of two judges.
Ah, right. We have one judge for the lower levels, and then two for higher ones - I don't know what happens when they disagree, I imagine they average the marks.

[frbskate63]

Ah, right. We have one judge for the lower levels, and then two for higher ones - I don't know what happens when they disagree, I imagine they average the marks.

No, I think you have to get a pass from both of them - if they disagree, then it's a retry.

[Mrs Redboots]

No, I think you have to get a pass from both of them - if they disagree, then it's a retry.

Thank you! I thought you would probably know.