coaching question

[SkatesinUSA]

Is it solicitation if a coach has his friend advertising his coaching abilities? I know of one such person whose good friend goes around advertising.

[liz_on_ice]

Is it solicitation if a coach has his friend advertising his coaching abilities? I know of one such person whose good friend goes around advertising.

I don't know what USFSA says, but my gut response is there is a difference between "coach X is really good" and "coach x is better than yours, you should think about switching."

Of course, "coach x will give you the first month half price if you switch" is right out.

[Terri C]

Is it solicitation if a coach has his friend advertising his coaching abilities? I know of one such person whose good friend goes around advertising.

According to the PSA Code of Ethics, yes it is!!

[Clarice]

Depends on how it's being done. A coach can advertise their services, as long as it's done generally and they don't target skaters who already have a coach. That is, brochures or business cards or something like that available to the general public is okay, but talking to individual skaters (or having a friend do it) is not. Here's the link to the PSA definitions:

http://www.skatepsa.com/PDF%20Documents/What%20are%20Solicitation,Promotion%20and%20Tamper ing.pdf

[Query]

I love this excerpt from the link just posted (underlines mine):

Soliciting destroys skaters, clubs and rink programs. If soliciting is going on in your area, the good coaches, parents and skaters must band together to stop it. Every skater has the right to believe his coach is the best and should not be interfered with...

Seems to me, all that soliciting destroys is mediocre coaches. [I]That[/] is why PSA thinks every skater should believe nonsense. Good coaches don't need to be protected from bad coaches. And skaters should be able to learn what coaches work best for them.

I reading a book on figure skating technique a few years back written by the head of PSA. I was surprised to learn that a coach could get in trouble if one of the coach's students told another coach's students that the first student's coach might be better. That doesn't seem fair either - a coach can't control what the student says.

Interesting that PSA apparently allows coaches to write books and create videos on skating (including that one), which can to some extant substitute for coaching. I wonder where the gray line is drawn there - if a coach advertises the book or video to the general public it must be OK, but I bet PSA would be unhappy if the coach advertised the book or video directly to someone else's student. After all, the indirect implication would be that if you like the book or video, you might like to be coached by the same source.

[doubletoe]

From a legal standpoint, as long as the coach is aware that his friend is soliciting on his behalf, then the friend is acting as the coach's agent and the coach can be held responsible for the friend's actions.

[LWalsh]

I love this excerpt from the link just posted (underlines mine):

Soliciting destroys skaters, clubs and rink programs. If soliciting is going on in your area, the good coaches, parents and skaters must band together to stop it. Every skater has the right to believe his coach is the best and should not be interfered with...

Seems to me, all that soliciting destroys is mediocre coaches. [I]That[/] is why PSA thinks every skater should believe nonsense. Good coaches don't need to be protected from bad coaches. And skaters should be able to learn what coaches work best for them.



I disgree completely. What if their coach really is the best coach for them and the 2nd coach is the medicore coach? The rule is there to protect everyone. Some coaches are really great at teaching beginners, some at more advanced levels. In neither case would it be acceptable for a coach to solcit another coaches students. The ethics rules are there to promote professional behavior amongst all coaches. They also promote better coaching by setting standards/ratings and offering educational opportunities.

Lwalsh

[herniated]

I just read the website... and I talk about my coach being great, like a lot. And I guess with some good friends I have suggested my coach. Very good friends. According to the guidelines am I soliciting my coach? He NEVER asked me to or EVER suggested it. But it can be very subtle obviously.

[vesperholly]

Seems to me, all that soliciting destroys is mediocre coaches. [I]That[/] is why PSA thinks every skater should believe nonsense. Good coaches don't need to be protected from bad coaches. And skaters should be able to learn what coaches work best for them.
Good parents need to be protected from bad coaches.

[Clarice]

I just read the website... and I talk about my coach being great, like a lot. And I guess with some good friends I have suggested my coach. Very good friends. According to the guidelines am I soliciting my coach? He NEVER asked me to or EVER suggested it. But it can be very subtle obviously.

Of course you're allowed to say how much you like your coach, and how much you've learned from them. The thing is, the coach that is perfect for you might be a terrible fit for somebody else. Different skaters have different goals and different needs. And it may be something as bottom-line as a family can't afford the "better" coach, and shouldn't be made to feel bad for using someone less experienced and less expensive (understanding that more expensive does not necessarily equate with better).

It's okay to say things like "my coach does a great job fixing my jump technique", but not "my coach is better than yours, and you would jump a lot better if you switched". If you were saying things like that, and your coach knew about it, it would be their responsibility to tell you to stop and to try to correct any misinformation. It's a matter of professional courtesy between coaches, keeping peace at the rink, and fostering an atmosphere where everybody can pursue the sport as they see fit.

[RachelSk8er]

I've had people around the rink ask me for coaching advice, and I give it to them. I don't see anything wrong with that if I'm able to be honest. I've told people they should try my coach, and I've also suggested other coaches for them who may be better suited to their needs/goals/personality.

[herniated]

Of course you're allowed to say how much you like your coach, and how much you've learned from them. The thing is, the coach that is perfect for you might be a terrible fit for somebody else. Different skaters have different goals and different needs. And it may be something as bottom-line as a family can't afford the "better" coach, and shouldn't be made to feel bad for using someone less experienced and less expensive (understanding that more expensive does not necessarily equate with better).

It's okay to say things like "my coach does a great job fixing my jump technique", but not "my coach is better than yours, and you would jump a lot better if you switched". If you were saying things like that, and your coach knew about it, it would be their responsibility to tell you to stop and to try to correct any misinformation. It's a matter of professional courtesy between coaches, keeping peace at the rink, and fostering an atmosphere where everybody can pursue the sport as they see fit.


Oh, yes. I never say "my coach is better than yours" never,never. And yes also to the fact that not every coach is for every - body. :)

[LilJen]

So, when my primary coach says, "You should take some spinning lessons from coach X, she really has a knack for it," that's soliciting? Or if she sends me to another coach for choreography, because she considers herself not so great at it? I don't think so.

[Clarice]

So, when my primary coach says, "You should take some spinning lessons from coach X, she really has a knack for it," that's soliciting? Or if she sends me to another coach for choreography, because she considers herself not so great at it? I don't think so.

No, if your primary coach is sending you, it's not soliciting. That's a decision they've made about how to best manage your training.

[teresa]

This is a very tough topic for students, parents and coaches. My experience is soliciting students happens. To be honest this is how I found my first two coaches. As a new skater this sort of thing never crossed my mind. I learned. The good coaches don't need to do anything, students and parents find them. This is why parents and new adult skaters need to watch and listen for awhile before choosing a coach. Sometimes the coaches who "scream" the loudest about soliciting are the worst. Coaches KNOW which coaches do this. It's usually the "new skater or parent" who is clueless by their approach. My two cents: A student can only be "taken" by a coach if their willing to go. If a skater is happy in their current situation nothing can make them change.

teresa

[ibreakhearts66]

This is a very tough topic for students, parents and coaches. My experience is soliciting students happens. To be honest this is how I found my first two coaches. As a new skater this sort of thing never crossed my mind. I learned. The good coaches don't need to do anything, students and parents find them. This is why parents and new adult skaters need to watch and listen for awhile before choosing a coach. Sometimes the coaches who "scream" the loudest about soliciting are the worst. Coaches KNOW which coaches do this. It's usually the "new skater or parent" who is clueless by their approach. My two cents: A student can only be "taken" by a coach if their willing to go. If a skater is happy in their current situation nothing can make them change.

teresa

Agreed. There was a coach at my rink who solicited skaters in some pretty ridiculous ways. They were also the least qualified coach. I found my coach--she definitely did not find me. I think that soliciting preys on the insecurities of the skater and parent.

[Query]

If hypothetically you notice a fellow skater is being coached very badly by someone, would it be OK to mention that to them or their parent or guardian?

That is different from mentioning an alternate coach.

Of course that could get complicated, if the fellow skater asked who would be better in response. Surely one could give a generic response - e.g., they should watch other coaches teach other students, and see who skates well, and who learns well, and who teaches in a way (show, tell, guide, explain...) that would work well for that particular student.

I think that if we see someone who is being coached in a manner that is dangerous or abusive we have a moral duty to mention to them that alternatives exist. And if it is a friend, and the coach does a poor job, we should mention it even if there is no danger or abuse, without having to worry it gets the next coach into trouble.

Suppose you are a building contractor, and you another contractor builds in such a way that the building will likely fall down, burn up, or require repairs in 5 or 10 years. A master electrician of my acquaintance tell me building codes mostly deal with immediate dangers, not long term reliability. As an example, USA National Electric Code requires effectively requires that wires and transformers be big enough not to burn up - but does not require they be large enough to avoid voltage drops that will make motors fail quickly, or cause other problems. Many similar problems exist with the way electric and plumbing are installed. E.g., if a plumber uses pipe that is substantially larger than required, and has no sharp bends, you probably will not experience plumbing clogs for a very long time - but larger pipes and larger radius bends than are legally required, like larger wires, moisture resistant electrical connections, harmonic mitigating transformers, stressless motor mounts, etc., are more expensive. For these kinds of reasons, buildings that should go without any electrical problems for a century or more, or any plumbing problems for decades, have problems much more quickly, and appliances that should last for decades don't either. Is it wrong to mention that to a potential customer, and to explain why the way you do it is better? Or for me, a customer, to mention it to another customer?

We expect most professionals to explain why their services are the best. We should expect no different of skating instructors. And we should be able to get referrals from our friends about the services they purchase.

Caveat Emptor (buyer beware) applies to every thing and every service we purchase. I hope most skaters and most parents understand that. But how can we, if professional codes deny us the right to learn of potential problems?

One last thing. As rules work now, you might get a coach suspended by the PSA, by sending advertisements for the coach to other coachs' students. How would the PSA know the coach hadn't sent them? Nice touch to put into the next skating movie about dirty moves by skaters, parents and coaches...

[techskater]

If hypothetically you notice a fellow skater is being coached very badly by someone, would it be OK to mention that to them or their parent or guardian?

I am a huge fan of MYOB in that respect. It will do nothing but engender hard feelings. If someone asks my opinion concerning a coach (would you take from X), I will answer, otherwise, I butt out!

[Skittl1321]

I think that if we see someone who is being coached in a manner that is dangerous or abusive we have a moral duty to mention to them that alternatives exist.

If someone is abusive, you mention the abuse. You don't say "X would be better".

(And I'm talking actual abuse, physical, emotional, or other. Not a coach being strict or mean. In some states mandatory reporters duty extends beyond their normal work environment. If that is you, not saying something would make you liable)

[liz_on_ice]

We expect most professionals to explain why their services are the best. We should expect no different of skating instructors. And we should be able to get referrals from our friends about the services they purchase.


You are entitled to ask any coach about their rates and how they would approach your training. If you ask, they can answer. Same with friends. The solicitation charge depends on who initiated the conversation.

[teresa]

Personally I wouldn't get involved. Any backlash might be aimed at you. Rinks are small communities and you never know how your best intentions will be taken. Believe me, I've seen and heard some doozies. My advice is to keep your personal thoughts to yourself, be kind to all and stay out of rink "issues". This most certainly means coaching input.

teresa

[kayskate]

Personally I wouldn't get involved. Any backlash might be aimed at you. Rinks are small communities and you never know how your best intentions will be taken. Believe me, I've seen and heard some doozies. My advice is to keep your personal thoughts to yourself, be kind to all and stay out of rink "issues". This most certainly means coaching input.


You got it. I agree completely. Skating is a small world. Unless you are asked directly for your op, I would keep it to myself.

Kay

[doubletoe]

If hypothetically you notice a fellow skater is being coached very badly by someone, would it be OK to mention that to them or their parent or guardian?

I think there are two issues here: (1) Your perception of what is "bad coaching" may differ from others, and (2) It is possible that the bad coaching you think you are seeing is not actually bad coaching for that skater.

I remember my first impression of my current coach. I saw him yelling at his student across the ice and saying things that I thought sounded pretty mean. I eventually realized that he and this skater were actually very close and the coach only yelled at him like that because that was the communication style they were both comfortable with. Now that he has been my coach for the past 5-6 years, he sometimes yells at me like that, and I love it because I know what a sweetheart he actually is. I also now know that he often does it just to attract attention to his skater during a program run-through so that people will get out of the way! (Shh! That's a secret).

[blackmanskating]

I think there are two issues here: (1) Your perception of what is "bad coaching" may differ from others, and (2) It is possible that the bad coaching you think you are seeing is not actually bad coaching for that skater.

I remember my first impression of my current coach. I saw him yelling at his student across the ice and saying things that I thought sounded pretty mean. I eventually realized that he and this skater were actually very close and the coach only yelled at him like that because that was the communication style they were both comfortable with. Now that he has been my coach for the past 5-6 years, he sometimes yells at me like that, and I love it because I know what a sweetheart he actually is. I also now know that he often does it just to attract attention to his skater during a program run-through so that people will get out of the way! (Shh! That's a secret).


I agree with you!!! My coach does that too. My coach went as far as to yell at me during a warm up for a moves test!!! He scared the crap outta everybody and didn't care. All I hear is a giant echoing voice saying, "Get down in your knees and PUSH!!!!!" LOL

That being said, I don't think any one coach is for everybody no matter how "good" he/she is. You can run down your resume if you want to, but if you can't motivate me to perform better or if our personalities clash, then no way I'm giving you my money. I don't care if you coached Michelle Kwan! I don't think bragging/soliciting is necessary. If a coach has great skaters under his/her wing, then people will take notice. Treat it like a job interview. Heck that's really what it is. You are the CEO of your skating career so you can determine which coach is best for you to hire to reach your goals. I'm stepping off the soap box now. LOL



BlackManSkating

[techskater]

And that is why I suggested the MYOB approach! ;)

[teresa]

I agree that a "yelling" coach doesn't mean a bad coach. Every coach has a different approach and every student responds in their own unique way. As a skater you do get to understand good from poor technique and coaching. Saying that, I still believe that every skater needs to figure out which coach works for them. Sometimes this is a journey of trial and error. It was for me. =-) I still think it's best not to give advice. Good luck in your decision! You've been given many points of view to help your in your decision.

teresa

[RachelSk8er]

I agree that a "yelling" coach doesn't mean a bad coach. Every coach has a different approach and every student responds in their own unique way. As a skater you do get to understand good from poor technique and coaching. Saying that, I still believe that every skater needs to figure out which coach works for them. Sometimes this is a journey of trial and error. It was for me. =-) I still think it's best not to give advice. Good luck in your decision! You've been given many points of view to help your in your decision.

teresa

There are ways to yell and be effective and ways to yell that are damaging. Yelling because you're on the other side of the ice and need to be heard (that's not really "yelling"), or because it's an effective way of encouraging a particular skater are fine. Yelling a bit because the skater is not working hard is fine if the skater/coach relationship and the skater's personality makes that appropriate (it's frustrating as a coach when you're working with a skater who is not putting forth effort and wasting your time/their parents' money). I've seen my own coach and some of the others at my club do this with some skaters and not do it with others.

There was one coach who I could not stand to be on the ice with when I was a kid because she SCREAMED at her skaters, her own daugher especially. She put them down and made them feel horrible about themselves. I think she was trying to live vicariously through them or something. They were constantly crying and throwing tantrums. Interestingly I don't see her around any more, nor do I see any of the skaters she coached who I grew up with coaching or still skating.

As a kid/teen we had a synchro coach who had a reputation for yelling, and she was VERY strict. We didn't get on the ice for practice if our hair wasn't in a bun and we weren't dressed appropriately. If we weren't at the rink at least 15 min before practice stretching and getting skates on, we were late. When she was talking, we were to stand up straight with our hands behind our backs, no playing with our hair or slouching, leaning on the boards, etc. We'd have to skate laps if we were not behaving properly or working hard enough at practice. If word got to her that we were not behaving appropriately at club freestyle sessons or on sessions at other rinks, we got in trouble from her. But basically, if you didn't misbehave and do what you're told, you didn't get yelled at. So we just didn't misbehave. When we worked hard, she let us goof off and have a little fun. A lot of kids (and parents) didn't like her, but quite frankly, I loved her. She taught us to make high goals and work for them. There was a reason we brought home medals from nationals every year.

On another team I skated on, one of the coaches didn't like me for whatever reason and would chew me out in front of the entire team pretty much on a daily basis (even though in most cases, I was not the only one doing something wrong, or who needed a deeper edge on a rocker, etc. She'd always single me out). It was not cool, and made skating not very fun.