Sit spin position

[san]

Help! I had a judge come and critique my Silver FS yesterday, and I was unnerved to find out that my sit spin doesn't count as a sit spin b/c it doesn't meet the ISU requirement of no more than a 90 degree angle for the skating leg.

My coach thinks it's unrealistic to expect an adult skater to get down that low. Obviously, if that's what the judges want, that's what I'll work on delivering, but I wanted to find out everyone's thoughts on judges expecting an adult skater to meet the ISU definition of a sit spin.

[Skittl1321]

From protocols of events I've seen it seems that there are two groups competitions fall under.

1) Sit spins that are almost there count.

2) Sit spins are held to the strict definition. For the most part, especially in the higher age groups, this provides a fairly level playing field because when they go really strict like this, almost no one gets credit on their sit spin, so if everyone attempted one, everyone is equal at 0, except the few exceptional skaters who can bend that knee.

[doubletoe]

It's not impossible, even for an adult. What helped me get the position was my coach explaining that I had to keep lowering my butt and pushing my free leg forward until I could feel the calf of my skating leg pressing against the inside of the thigh of my free leg. I practiced getting into that position both on and off the ice and realized that it was all about arching my back and pushing both my chest and free leg forward. Also, note that the knee of the free leg will not only be farther forward than the knee of the skating leg, but it will also drop below it.

[san]

Thanks for the comments!

Doubletoe, I'll practice the position as you described it off-ice today, and give it a whirl on the ice tomorrow. I think I can do it w/enough practice. Just had no idea the requirements were so strict.

[doubletoe]

Thanks for the comments!

Doubletoe, I'll practice the position as you described it off-ice today, and give it a whirl on the ice tomorrow. I think I can do it w/enough practice. Just had no idea the requirements were so strict.

If you're doing it off ice, wear a shoe with a heel so that it keeps all of your weight on the ball of the foot (Remember, not only does your skate boot have a heel on it, but you actually lift the heel off of the ice when spinning, so your foot is in the same position as if you were wearing a higher heel). You can also practice left back inside shoot-the-ducks for the forward sitspin position, keeping the weight on the ball of the blade and scraping the bottom pick just a tiny bit. But remember, it is actually easier to get down low while spinning because the momentum from your free leg swinging around like a pendulum helps you! :)

[fsk8r]

From protocols of events I've seen it seems that there are two groups competitions fall under.

1) Sit spins that are almost there count.

2) Sit spins are held to the strict definition. For the most part, especially in the higher age groups, this provides a fairly level playing field because when they go really strict like this, almost no one gets credit on their sit spin, so if everyone attempted one, everyone is equal at 0, except the few exceptional skaters who can bend that knee.

I suppose that sit spins which are almost there being counted, can equally be fair as long as the definition they're working to at the event is the same for everyone. Ultimately does it really matter if they want us at 90degrees or any other angle. There'll always be some of us struggling to get the angle and others who can do it easily. It's just the nature of the beast.

I'll be off practicing all the suggestions to get the butt lower. I seem to permanently to be 1 to 2 inch off the target height. I get it sometimes, but can't manage to consistently get it.

[Skate@Delaware]

I either am waaaay to high (just hunched over) or have to commit and go all the way down to the ice/floor. I get hung up at the "proper" height, probably due to my back and can only make it happen with lots of support. It's frustrating. If I could get UP once I'm all the way down I'd be ok but that hasn't happened yet.

[fsk8r]

I either am waaaay to high (just hunched over) or have to commit and go all the way down to the ice/floor. I get hung up at the "proper" height, probably due to my back and can only make it happen with lots of support. It's frustrating. If I could get UP once I'm all the way down I'd be ok but that hasn't happened yet.

They do call it a "sit" spin and the sitting on ice type should be getting points as a variant on the original?

[sk8tmum]

Squats wearing two inch heels. Up and down and up and down. It worked for my kids ... although my son insisted on practicing it in the basement with the curtains drawn so that no-one could see him wearing a pair of my boots (younger years when his feet weren't 4 sizes larger than mine) with heels :lol: Seriously, it was very effective, and others I've passed the idea along to found out it helped. Our physiotherapist, who works with lots of skaters, suggested wall squats, as my daughter needed help in keeping her back straight as she went up and down; the wall gave her a reminder on that aspect, as she knew she had to feel the wall along her back as she went up and down.

[kayskate]

I don't know what the official def'n says, but you might try experimenting w free leg positions. You may be able to get down lower w your free leg bent or straight.

When I started doing sit spins (about 26 yrs old, I know that's relatively young), my coach made me go down all the way. I found it helpful to grab my free leg on the way down and swing it like a pendulum around, as someone else mentioned. I have since broken my ankle and can no longer go down that far, at least I don't bother w it since I can still get 90.

Kay

[saras]

you don't need to have the passing average on EACH element - if other elements are strong enough to put you over the passing average, an element can be below the passing average.

it's not a great thing to count on but ...

[RachelSk8er]

What's really seemed to help my sit spins has been SQUATS!!!

In roller derby, which I started around May, we do tons of them during our endurance workout. (We'll do squat pyramids were we'll sprint for 15 sec/squat for 15 sec, sprint for 20 sec/squat for 20 sec, and so on up to 30 or sometimes 45 sec and back down). You could easily do something like this on the ice--stroke a lap, squat and glide for as long as you possibly can before you come to a stop, repeat.

Sometimes (when I'm actually home and have time/energy) I do wall squats in my basement using an exercise ball between my back and the wall. For added fun, I hold my arms out straight with one of my heavy, obnoxious law school books in my hands. (Or if I do this at the gym, I hold a medicine ball.)

I've had a forward sit, but it's gotten lower. Perviously I could only do a back sit if I was already down in a forward sit, but I can now do it from a back camel and on its own and it's lower overall and feels more stable (well, the squats helped and my back spin has gotten better altogether).

[TreSk8sAZ]

Ok, maybe I'm being weird, but... is the OP in the US? Because I thought the ISU rule for sit spins only applied to Intermediate or Novice through Senior, not to Adult Silver FS. Unless I'm getting the test level wrong or it's another country. I just didn't think the ISU communication applied to anything below Masters for adults.. Not that it's not a good idea to work on getting it lower if you can, but what exactly is the standard for that test?

[Skittl1321]

The only place in the USFS rulebook that has element definitions is under the synchro section, but this is what it says there, under "freeskate elements":
ii. Sit spin
The skater remains in a sit position while rotating. The supporting leg must be bent at least to a 90° angle. The thigh of the skating foot must be parallel to the ice surface.

The test section of the rulebook for preliminary says "recognizable sit position" but all the other tests just say sit spin.

And part of the problem with some IJS events and some 6.0 events, is in general judges think with IJS rules in their head, even if they aren't necessarily what apply.

[Skate@Delaware]

I can squat my bodyweight, and can do one-legged squats with support (still not able to do them unsupported on my spinning leg-isn't that weird). I'll keep trying. I think it has a lot to do with some muscle/nerve damage from my back injury.

As for getting all the way down...I could always end a program in a pose once I've spun out if I only keep one knee on the ice!;)

[dance2sk8]

What's really seemed to help my sit spins has been SQUATS!!! .

Yep!! I weight lift to keep tone and strengthen my legs for jumps and spins. Its made a HUGE difference. I am getting really low now. Almost 90 degrees. I just need to lift my straight leg more off the ice and get lower. It seems easier to spin being so low.

I do squats with free weights or bar. 10-15 reps - 2 -3 sets
I also do forward lunges with free weights (25 lbs each hand) 2-3 sets- 15 steps each.
There's also an exercise where you are in a lunge position, and rise slightly up and all the way down - 20 reps - 3 sets.

[san]

Well, I'm back from the rink and happy to report that I was able to do a sit spin in the correct position today, through sheer force of will. I'm sure I will pay for it tomorrow in terms of muscle pain, but I did it! Whoo hoo!

[doubletoe]

Well, I'm back from the rink and happy to report that I was able to do a sit spin in the correct position today, through sheer force of will. I'm sure I will pay for it tomorrow in terms of muscle pain, but I did it! Whoo hoo!

Yay!!!! Stretch those quads really well! ;)

[doubletoe]

Ok, maybe I'm being weird, but... is the OP in the US? Because I thought the ISU rule for sit spins only applied to Intermediate or Novice through Senior, not to Adult Silver FS. Unless I'm getting the test level wrong or it's another country. I just didn't think the ISU communication applied to anything below Masters for adults.. Not that it's not a good idea to work on getting it lower if you can, but what exactly is the standard for that test?

When a position is defined in the ISU rules (as each of the spin and spiral positions are), I believe that definition automatically applies to the USFSA, since it is an ISU member. The definition of a position is a constant, regardless of the judging system used. The difference is that when it comes to testing under 6.0, it is up to the judges themselves to apply the rules strictly or leniently and that's where you need to just see how your judges have been treating them in recent tests. The same is true of competitions, although I believe the referee may also set the tone for each competition and could conceivably ask the judges to be more lenient on sitspin positions for adults.

[san]

TreSK8saz, I am in the US (Southern CA).

I had wondered, too, why at Adult Silver I was being asked to conform to an IJS/ISU standard when I'm not going to be skating in IJS competitions. That's actually why I started the thread, b/c I was surprised I'd be held to such a high standard at Adult Silver. But I think Doubletoe's explanation above makes sense, and as it turns out I can actually do the darn spin properly when I put my mind to it. :D

Now my next hurdle is getting 3 revs in each position for the camel/sit combo. I can spin around all day long in the sit spin--camel, not so much. :frus:

Off to stretch my quads....(ouch!)

[Virtualsk8r]

Found this long ago on a website -- way before the new ISU definition of a sit spin came into effect.

www.skating-wos.on.ca/technical.htm

Thanks to Virginia Gillham, National Championship Judge in Singles and Dance. This was published a long time ago, in another place, now adapted to the Web. Would anyone like to guess WHY?
(Editor's Note: I have already approached Virginia about a similar page on Toe Axels!)

... About Those Sitspins!!

Once upon a time, everyone who said s/he could do a sitspin, did one that looked like THIS. S/he looked like s/he was sitting, which is where the spin got its name.


Then, one day, someone invented the Preliminary Free Skating Test. Beginning skaters who had difficulty doing a proper sitspin, did one that looked like this!


Judges, because they're such nice people, pretended they didn't notice, or maybe they just made a small comment on the test sheet. They presumed that by the time the skaters got to their Junior Bronze Test they would be doing a proper sitspin that looked like this!



Alas, not only has that not happened in many cases, but these half-baked sitspins have turned into a disease!! - maybe even an epidemic!! - that has spread to skaters at embarrassingly advanced levels... sometimes even Novice and Junior skaters! Not only that, sometimes these sitspins look like THIS. It is hard to tell that the skater is even thinking about sitting!


These are NOT sitspins, and they make judges CRAZY!! - Even NICE judges!!


The moral of the story is this: do not tell yourself or anybody else that you can do a sitspin until you can do one in a proper "SIT" position, and do not be surprised if a judge comments that there was no sitspin in your program if you do one that looks like this.



Let's stamp out half-baked sitspins!!


There were illustrations with this that didn't copy well....however the message gets across!

As for adults - there might be a bonus if you happenn to be a little heavier in the derriere! The 90 degree angle is taken from the bottom of the 'cheeks' to the curve of the skating knee......so skinny skaters actually have to get down lower in order to get their bony butts at the 90 degree angle. Believe it or not! This was an illustration at an ISU CoP seminar I attended.

[liz_on_ice]

As for adults - there might be a bonus if you happenn to be a little heavier in the derriere! The 90 degree angle is taken from the bottom of the 'cheeks' to the curve of the skating knee......so skinny skaters actually have to get down lower in order to get their bony butts at the 90 degree angle. Believe it or not! This was an illustration at an ISU CoP seminar I attended.

hee hee! :D

[Skate@Delaware]

oh man! I could spin better when I had more in the caboose too!

[londonicechamp]

Hi RachelSk8er and san

Yes, I have been doing one foot wall squats at home, on the days that I do not have my lesson(s) and practice. My coach asked me to show her my sit spin yesterday, she said that they are getting a bit lower, not too bad, still needs to get lower, and I have to be not afraid of falling on the ice.

I will keep on practising those one foot squats at home.

londonicechamp

[san]

Oh my gosh, Virginia Gillham is a hoot! Love her writing, and the stick figures are hysterical! :lol: I will have them firmly planted in my mind every time I feel like I'm not getting down far enough in my sit spin.

londonicechamp--your coach is right about not being afraid to fall. When I did my sit spins in practice yesterday, it turned out that I really could spin in the correct position--I'd just never forced myself to do it before. I went down as far as I could, figuring I'd just sit on the ice if necessary, and lo and behold, there I was, spinning away in the correct position. Of course, my hip is killing me today, and it may take a bit of doing to reproduce this feat the next time I skate, but it's progress!

[PinkLaces]

I'm almost there on the sit spin. My coach says I just have to get my butt down a bit more. Here's my problem if I think about pushing my butt down then I roll back on the blade, because I shift too much weight there (and believe me I've got plenty of caboose there ;) ). If there something else that I can think about that will, tip the balance (so to speak) so my butt will automatically lower?

[Skate@Delaware]

Think about pushing your hands out more and making sure you really feel the front of your boot against your ankle-that helps me a lot (I also rock back onto my heel).

[doubletoe]

I'm almost there on the sit spin. My coach says I just have to get my butt down a bit more. Here's my problem if I think about pushing my butt down then I roll back on the blade, because I shift too much weight there (and believe me I've got plenty of caboose there ;) ). If there something else that I can think about that will, tip the balance (so to speak) so my butt will automatically lower?

Think of pushing your chest and free leg forward and holding the free leg lower than the skating knee. Both of those things will keep your weight forward as you lower your butt down.

[PinkLaces]

Thanks for the tips! Will definately try them on my next practice session.

[sexyskates]

Think about bending at the ankle and pushing your knee forward - this will get you low and off your heel.
Also make sure you swing your right free leg around with the hip open, so that you lead with your heel. It's easier to bend forward with your right hip open. Arch your lower back.
I was able to learn how to do a proper 90 degree low sitspin in my 40's (total adult onset skater). Good quads help.

[dance2sk8]

Think about bending at the ankle and pushing your knee forward - this will get you low and off your heel.
Also make sure you swing your right free leg around with the hip open, so that you lead with your heel. It's easier to bend forward with your right hip open. Arch your lower back.
I was able to learn how to do a proper 90 degree low sitspin in my 40's (total adult onset skater). Good quads help.

You got that right about quads! I was doing lower than 90 degree angles yesterday on my sit spin and my quad was telling me how much muscle I needed. I am so glad water skiing (slalom), weights, and skating has really helped improve my positioning in my sit spins. The lower you get, the easier it seems to spin on the sweet spot of my blade. I am beyond excited over this achievement! Now my coach wants me really low always since I am able to do this. Variations here I come soon!!! :lol:

[PinkLaces]

You got that right about quads! I was doing lower than 90 degree angles yesterday on my sit spin and my quad was telling me how much muscle I needed. I am so glad water skiing (slalom), weights, and skating has really helped improve my positioning in my sit spins. The lower you get, the easier it seems to spin on the sweet spot of my blade. I am beyond excited over this achievement! Now my coach wants me really low always since I am able to do this. Variations here I come soon!!! :lol:

Congrats!!! That's awesome! :bow: Hopefully, I'll be joining you soon.

[PinkLaces]

Think about bending at the ankle and pushing your knee forward - this will get you low and off your heel.
Also make sure you swing your right free leg around with the hip open, so that you lead with your heel. It's easier to bend forward with your right hip open. Arch your lower back.
I was able to learn how to do a proper 90 degree low sitspin in my 40's (total adult onset skater). Good quads help.

Thanks for the good tips. I've been working my quads with my personal trainer - she's got me doing lots of squats and lunges as well as tons of balancing exercises.

[antmanb]

No help whatsoever but sit spins are usually funny for both me and my coach because she'll usually shout at me to go lower and i'll shout back "how the hell am i supposed to get back up if i go any lower"! Otherwise it's the only partly joking "but my belly's in the way i can't get down any lower unless i lose some weight"!

Ant

[dance2sk8]

Congrats!!! That's awesome! :bow: Hopefully, I'll be joining you soon.

You will!!!! Now if only my camel spin would get better...that's the only thing I struggle on right now spin wise...and oh yeah, backspin. :frus::frus::frus::frus: