Forward Crossovers

[luckykid]

Where do I look?
If I look straight, I tend to go in a straight line.
If I look to the center of the circle, every move looks as if I'm going to fall.
If I look anywhere, I get distracted and fall.

[Skittl1321]

Always look where you are going. Which means you want to look kind of in-between "straight" and "center of the circle".

[londonicechamp]

Hi luckykid

How do you practise your forward crossovers? I always practice mine where there is a circle, so yes, looking kind of in- between "straight" and "centre of the circle".

londonicechamp

[Isk8NYC]

Without seeing you, I can imagine that your upper body is out of control which is why you said "If I look to the center of the circle, every move looks as if I'm going to fall."

It's not where you look, it's how you control your upper body that matters. Most beginners need to turn their heads in order to force the twist at the waist needed for forward crossovers. Otherwise, their eyes wander and take the upper body with them.

If you're doing crossovers on a circle, either look ahead a quarter-circle or look into the center, but more importantly, KEEP YOUR SHOULDERS ON OR INSIDE THE CIRCLE. Most beginners let the shoulders flop back as they cross, or worse, flail to the outside of the circle. That's the purpose behind having one-foot swizzle pumps on the circle in the teaching plan - to safely teach upper-body control before attempting the actual crossovers.

You must also bend your knees and transfer weight without swinging the crossing foot to the inside. (Bring it over with the toe pointing to the inside; most beginners bring it over heel first, then put the crossing blade down pointing outside the circle, which throws them off pattern and is really, really dangerous.

Those techniques will give you much more control.

[luckykid]

Most beginners need to turn their heads in order to force the twist at the waist needed for forward crossovers. Otherwise, their eyes wander and take the upper body with them.
Yes, I do do that for my left over right crossovers. Somehow it doesn't come so naturally for me than right over left.

Bring it over with the toe pointing to the inside
That means the front part of the blade will reach the ice first?

Thanks for the advice! I'll try it out on my next practice.

[Isk8NYC]

Just out of curiosity: What does your coach say?

I tell my students to think about placing the middle-to-ball section of their crossing blade down on the ice so that the blades are parallel before doing the understroke with the non-crossing foot.

[Skittl1321]

Somehow it doesn't come so naturally for me than right over left.

Don't worry! Almost everyone has a good side and a bad side. Just make sure not to only practice your good side (because it feels good to do well!) or else the difference becomes even more prominent. I try to practice my bad side at a rate of twice my good side, for everything.

[doubletoe]

Do your crossovers on a circle and keep your eyes on the part of the circle that is ahead of you (I like Isk8nyc's recommendation of 1/4 circle ahead).

Also, remember that your chest must face inside the circle, like you are hugging the circle. That means if you are doing right-over-left crossovers, your right arm should be in front and your left arm and shoulder should be pulled back. If you are doing left-over-right crossovers, your left arm should be in front and your right arm and shoulder should be pulled back. To make sure you don't fall into the circle, tilt your head a little outside of the circle and keep pressing your outside shoulder down a little (that's your right shoulder for right-over-left crossovers and your left shoulder for left-over-right crossovers).

Also, remember to keep your butt low and knees bent. This will allow you to keep more distance between your feet and avoid the "clink of death" as you cross over.

[dbny]

To make sure you don't fall into the circle, tilt your head a little outside of the circle and keep pressing your outside shoulder down a little (that's your right shoulder for right-over-left crossovers and your left shoulder for left-over-right crossovers).


Something that helps with this is to point your leading hand down at the ice (at the circle, if you are using one) and imagine it as anchoring your upper body. Your leading arm should be slightly lower than your trailing arm.

[luckykid]

Just out of curiosity: What does your coach say?

I tell my students to think about placing the middle-to-ball section of their crossing blade down on the ice so that the blades are parallel before doing the understroke with the non-crossing foot.
My coach doesn't say anything? Well she asks me to bend my knees more. But it's really difficult to bend without leaning forward with my upper body. What's the understroke? I do crossovers in the way that I cross my foot over, then lift the back foot off the ice. I don't know why, but that's what my coach taught me to do.

It's not so bad for right over left crossovers, but for left over right crossovers, I find it really difficult to twist my body to face the circle.

[Skittl1321]

It's possible your coach has not yet taught you the understroke, and that's not them being lazy or forgetful in their teaching: many coaches don't teach that right away because it's just too much to process, it will be the next step after you get good at what you are doing now.

[doubletoe]

My coach doesn't say anything? Well she asks me to bend my knees more. But it's really difficult to bend without leaning forward with my upper body. What's the understroke? I do crossovers in the way that I cross my foot over, then lift the back foot off the ice. I don't know why, but that's what my coach taught me to do.

It's not so bad for right over left crossovers, but for left over right crossovers, I find it really difficult to twist my body to face the circle.

Instead of thinking about bending your knees, think about lowering your butt closer to the ice while arching your back. That will give you a nice deep knee bend while keeping you balanced. Your best balance is when you have your back arched and your chest lined up over your knees and your knees over your toes.

[Mrs Redboots]

But it's really difficult to bend without leaning forward with my upper body.

Think more of squatting, and of bending your ankles. You could practice the exercise the kids do, called at our rink "Little man" or "Mushrooms", where they squat right down so their bums touch the back of their boots, and hug their knees, and skate around that way. Or imagine yourself sitting in a chair - my first group lesson coach said to think of sitting on a bar-stool!

What's the understroke? I do crossovers in the way that I cross my foot over, then lift the back foot off the ice. I don't know why, but that's what my coach taught me to do.Learning the understroke will be the next step, once you've got the first part down. One of the rules of skating is that as soon as you can do something, they make it more difficult! So don't worry about that for now.

It's not so bad for right over left crossovers, but for left over right crossovers, I find it really difficult to twist my body to face the circle. So do I. Eventually, especially if you do ice dance, you'll have to learn to do them both ways, facing into the circle, and facing out of it (not yet!). I find one is easier one way, and the other, the other! Think of twisting your rib-cage rather than your whole body - I find that easier, and the rest follows.

[liz_on_ice]

It's not so bad for right over left crossovers, but for left over right crossovers, I find it really difficult to twist my body to face the circle.

There's a yoga stretch that really helped me get the torso twist in both directions. I found a video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0bxfNuk5Pk)

[londonicechamp]

Hi luckykid

Do not worry about the understroke now. Your coach will teach that step to you, once you have done your crossovers well.

Well, the understroke is where you push your skating foot (the one you do your crossovers in), hold it there (normally my coach has me bend my knees and get a deeper edge on the crossing foot for the understroke) then do the crossovers after that. This is a more advanced version of the forward crossovers.

And each person has a good side and a bad side. My good side is on the left, and my bad side is on the right. I am left handed with the exception of brushing my teeth, holding chopsticks and writing.

londonicechamp

[luckykid]

My crossovers are better now, thanks everyone for the advice!

I can get the outside edge, but I can't manage to skate on the inside edge. It goes to the flats.

I think I know what the understroke is. Saw some more advanced students doing it.

[Kat12]

^It just takes practice. That was definitely my worst part too...

While we're talking about crossovers, let's talk progressives too because I still don't entirely understand them (need to have a talk with my instructor about really learning them).

Does my outside (crossing over) foot ever leave the ice at all? Or is it just the inside foot that comes up after the understroke? IOW, it seems the outside foot just sort of makes a weaving-in-and-out pattern around the inside foot? I'm not explaining that too well, but okay, outside foot is on the ice...weaves in, in front of the inside foot, which then pushes under, weaves back out as inside foot contacts the ice...rinse and repeat?

[Clarice]

It's hard to describe the difference between forward progressives and forward crossovers. You would do best asking someone to demonstrate for you as they explain.

Basically, it has to do with "where" the outside foot (if you're going around a circle) sets down on the ice. The foot does leave the ice, at the end of the extension when you push. It then sets down "next to" the inside foot, which then pushes under. The outside foot does not "cross over" the inside foot, although it sort of looks like that.

The point is that when doing progressives, you get a much stronger underpush. If the outside foot sets down in a crossed over position, the inside foot can't push very far on the underpush. If the outside foot sets down next to the inside foot, the inside foot gets a much longer stroke. Progressives are smoother and more powerful.

The outside foot doesn't really weave in and out - it's more like it stays on its own circle, which is slightly larger than the circle the inside foot is on. The outside foot pushes off its circle and returns to it; the inside foot pushes under off its circle (that push will cross the outside foot's circle) and returns.

Clear as mud?

[Mrs Redboots]

My first coach used to say that the difference between a forward progressive run (we call them runs in the UK) and a forward crossover was about 2 inches - it was about where you put your free foot down - on the line (for a run) or across it into the circle (for a crossover).

Back progressive runs, by the way, are a whole different animal and bear no resemblance at all to back crossovers!

[dbny]

My first coach used to say that the difference between a forward progressive run (we call them runs in the UK)

We also have progressive runs in the US, but using the word "run" means that you are doing a series of three strokes, as opposed to just progressives, which you could do indefinitely.

[Kat12]

Aha! Then I AM doing progressives correctly! Sorta. I do still bring the outside foot in more, so perhaps I need to work on that. It's a new move: progressovers!

Which means I'm doing my BACKWARD progressives INcorrectly, because in that case my foot DOESN'T leave the ice. Or am I right and that's the part about Back progressive runs, by the way, are a whole different animal and bear no resemblance at all to back crossovers! ?

[Clarice]

While forward progressives are kind of like forward crossovers, backward progressives are more like back stroking.

[Skittl1321]

Are back progressives the ones that make it feel like you are kicking spastically? (And leave me wondering how the heck my coach manages a push, because I can't do anything but be flat)...

On forward progressives my coaches are huge about being very pigeon toed into it, that way your foot strikes well before you cross.

[dbny]

Are back progressives the ones that make it feel like you are kicking spastically? (And leave me wondering how the heck my coach manages a push, because I can't do anything but be flat)...

Yup, those are the ones. Those, at least, are a lot like on roller skates.

On forward progressives my coaches are huge about being very pigeon toed into it, that way your foot strikes well before you cross.

Which may be why they came relatively easily to me - I have great turn in. I can do a pigeon eagle.