Height on Ice

[Pandora]

I skate freestyle on roller and ice. It seems that I have no problem getting height (1 1/2 feet) on roller/inlines using toestop or even edges, but have a real problem getting any height at all on ice. (Usually a foot or less.) Remember Tara Lipinski was known for her low jumps with super fast rotation. :roll: Since I can achieve the height on roller (with heavier skates), I don't think this is a strengh issue.... An ice coach once told me that the edge, if used correctly, will "throw" the skater into the air. 8O Is this true? Does speed help? More knee bend? How do you "use" this edge???? There is no equivilient to this on roller. We just bend knees deeper and hit the toestop harder (for toe jumps) or push against the floor harder (for edge jumps). There is no way that I know of that an edge will "throw" you up on roller....it is all just the skater's strength. But, like I said, this is not working the same way on ice, so there must be some other element that I'm missing......Can anyone explain what it is? :??

[doubletoe]

I skate freestyle on roller and ice. It seems that I have no problem getting height (1 1/2 feet) on roller/inlines using toestop or even edges, but have a real problem getting any height at all on ice. (Usually a foot or less.) Remember Tara Lipinski was known for her low jumps with super fast rotation. :roll: Since I can achieve the height on roller (with heavier skates), I don't think this is a strengh issue.... An ice coach once told me that the edge, if used correctly, will "throw" the skater into the air. 8O Is this true? Does speed help? More knee bend? How do you "use" this edge???? There is no equivilient to this on roller. We just bend knees deeper and hit the toestop harder (for toe jumps) or push against the floor harder (for edge jumps). There is no way that I know of that an edge will "throw" you up on roller....it is all just the skater's strength. But, like I said, this is not working the same way on ice, so there must be some other element that I'm missing......Can anyone explain what it is? :??

All I know is, the deeper you bend your knee and ankle on an edge, the deeper (rounder) your edge will get. That gives you more edge to push off from and also helps you initiate rotation. The faster you are going, the more power you'll be able to harness as you tighten that edge just before takeoff. That's why you need to wait for each edge to finish before you take off. Each edge has an arc that has a beginning, middle and end, and if you bend deeply enough and wait long enough on the edge, you'll feel it wanting to leave the ice. And of course, the more you bend your knee and ankle before the jump AND the more you point your toes as you leave the ice, the more spring you will get. Since the blade has a rocker that is rounder in front (right behind the toepicks), you also need to make sure you get your weight on the ball of the foot (which is where the rocker is) before you take off on any edge jump. On pick jumps, this phenomenon isn't as apparent.
What you need to focus on for pick jumps is staying more in the middle of the blade on the skating foot as you bend deeply and reach back to pick, then pick *gently* but firmly (never bang) and pull yourself back and up. You want to use the momentum you already have to launch yourself.

[dbny]

An ice coach once told me that the edge, if used correctly, will "throw" the skater into the air. 8O Is this true? Does speed help? More knee bend? How do you "use" this edge???? There is no equivilient to this on roller.

Exactly. Remember that edges on ice and on roller are really two different things. On ice, the edge is part of the blade and also the curve made by the blade as you lean into it. On roller skates, an edge is a curve - the end.

[Pandora]

Thanks for the good info!! Yes, there is definitely some kind of difference here. Will work on bending knees and trying to hold on a sec longer to "feel" edge before takeoffs....Also pointing the toe and jumping off the pick, I think that is a BIG factor (especially on edge jumps). We (roller) jump straight off the edge while ice should turn the edge and jump from the pick.....Don't think I'm doing this correctly, (still jumping from edge, not pick)....:cry: Blades should be in soon. Will try this "new" style of jumping and hope height increases....:D

[RachelSk8er]

I think what you're experiencing is completely normal. There is a kid who skates at my rink who also roller skates. On rollers, she has her doubles through a flip and pretty good height, on the ice she doesn't have an axel and her single flip and lutz aren't terribly strong, yet she's been figure skating longer. Getting into the ice is what creates height and rotation. You can't really get "into" the floor, so it's a totally different feeling. On toe jumps, you're only placing a thin 1/4 inch piece of metal into the ice, rather than having that big, round toe stop to plant down and use to give you height. I've also noticed that roller skaters, even at higher levels, have much less speed going into the jumps, and the jumps tend to be high but don't travel as much distance (they pretty much go up, rotate, and land almost in the same spot). Figure skaters seem to go into jumps with more speed and cover more distance and may not get as much height.

A few of us from my rink do roller derby and have gotten other figure skaters to just go to the roller rink to play round with us, and have noticed that jumping came really easy once we got the landing on a flat foot/all 4 wheels down. It's the spinning on rollers that seems to be really tricky.

[Pandora]

You are very right about the rollers being almost at a standstill when jumping (especially the triples) while ice seems to use the speed somehow to create height....One of the few roller/inline male champions I have ever seen use any speed is world champ Jayson Sutcliffe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhDVKzapULA But he is exceptional....The men have landed clean 3axels, but, yes, they are usually done at a standstill....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoXNGhtSqNI

Started out on roller. Am able to do all doubles (except lutz) cleanly on both ice and roller (inline).... well, at least I was able to do them when I last skated ice about 2 years ago...;) ... but jumps always had "bad technique" on ice (ie. wrap etc.). Doesn't really matter because I skate for fun, but would like to improve jumps to the point where I can get the height to attempt more rotations... Also, the flat landings on ice were killing my lower back!!! :cry:

You are very right. There are certain differences between ice and roller/inline especially with the spins. I put up a video for an ice skater (in France 8O) who wanted to know how to spin on inlines. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo9cNDOExdc As you can see, spins don't last as long on roller/inline (due to friction). Also, they are not as smooth as on ice. (Although the outdoor skatepark is the worst condition. At a real indoor wooden or coated cement rink, the spins would last a bit longer and be stedier, but still nothing like on ice). But we do have the heel camel. :D Yes, the very top (world champs) can do it on inlines. I can't....yet....;) Here is an example. Makes ice skaters who have tried inlines just stare 8O http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjZrP8c0mUQ Heel camel has less friction (only one wheel on ground) so spin lasts longer... She is a world champion on roller/inline. (No kidding, right.;))
Also, flying spins (camel, deathdrop) have to use salchow takeoff (3 turn and inside edge) since there is no pick to catch. Will have to relearn correct way again on ice. (sigh) :roll:

[FREESK8ER]

Roller skates have a large rubber toe stop to catapult off of so jumps are higher. I think the timing of springing off the toe pick on the blade while the employed skate still rides the edge is key to getting height on the ice.

There are also rubber cushions in the trucks to absorb the shock of landing. So when you land on a blade you have to absorb the shock in your knee and ankle.

I skated roller for 20 years.

[Pandora]

Oh cool!! Are you on ice now?? Dance? Freestyle?

I know what you mean about the trucks. Inlines don't have any trucks, the only "shock absorber" is the rubbery wheels. They are different (softer) than quad wheels....

I think the key to the ice jumps is "hooking" that pick on takeoffs and jumping off it. Going to try to do this better this time around on ice.... The last time I had Pattern 99 k-picks, (not a cross cut toe rake), but it always felt like I was slipping off the pick....:cry: This time I ordered Phantom k-picks hoping that the cross-cut toe rake would grip a bit better. Maybe it will help.....:D

I know (from ice friends and ice coach) that I need to point my toe (landing foot) when I land then ride out the edge to absorb the shock...but that is so hard to do after a lifetime of roller teaching us not to land on the toestop.....Going to have to make a serious effort to correct this this time around or back may go out for good.....

[RachelSk8er]

Oh cool!! Are you on ice now?? Dance? Freestyle?

I know what you mean about the trucks. Inlines don't have any trucks, the only "shock absorber" is the rubbery wheels. They are different (softer) than quad wheels....

I think the key to the ice jumps is "hooking" that pick on takeoffs and jumping off it. Going to try to do this better this time around on ice.... The last time I had Pattern 99 k-picks, (not a cross cut toe rake), but it always felt like I was slipping off the pick....:cry: This time I ordered Phantom k-picks hoping that the cross-cut toe rake would grip a bit better. Maybe it will help.....:D

I know (from ice friends and ice coach) that I need to point my toe (landing foot) when I land then ride out the edge to absorb the shock...but that is so hard to do after a lifetime of roller teaching us not to land on the toestop.....Going to have to make a serious effort to correct this this time around or back may go out for good.....

Hopefully you're ignoring your abilities on rollers (i.e. the doubles) and just focusing on getting good technique on your singles on the ice. If not, this will help. One of the roller coaches here said he tried figure skating, had no issues launching himself into a double flip right away but it was the technique and landing differences that were hard, so he'd have to go back and start at the basics and he found that boring. I know that is probably really frustrating, but it's the only way to learn both.

[Pandora]

Yes, know you are right, but difficult to do.....(Kind of like eating vegies.;))
Definitely need to get onto that toe for takeoffs. Think you are using speed to generate height. Going to try this also. (Have crash pads.:D) Heard it helps with something called "flow." Need flow on ice for jumps....(I think.:??)

However...(since I'm not competing or testing), going to leave the wrap alone. Erin Pearl and Silvia Fontana could jump with it. Nakano uses it on 3flip and lutz....So although it may be frowned upon, it is "usable" in the sense that you can land the jumps with it (and I'm not aiming for 3flip or lutz, so I should be fine.;))

[Skate@Delaware]

However...(since I'm not competing or testing), going to leave the wrap alone. Erin Pearl and Silvia Fontana could jump with it. Nakano uses it on 3flip and lutz....So although it may be frowned upon, it is "usable" in the sense that you can land the jumps with it (and I'm not aiming for 3flip or lutz, so I should be fine.;))
Just stay away from Dick Button if you are keeping that wrap! LOL! ;)

[Pandora]

That is so true and just toooo funny!!!:lol: Listen to him commenting on Erin Pearl, he sounds like he may have a fit at any moment. Peggy has to calm him down a few times. :lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR05b8SBtTs

He seems to hate wrap even more than a bad free leg position in a layback. ;)

[doubletoe]

I know (from ice friends and ice coach) that I need to point my toe (landing foot) when I land then ride out the edge to absorb the shock...but that is so hard to do after a lifetime of roller teaching us not to land on the toestop.....Going to have to make a serious effort to correct this this time around or back may go out for good.....

Yes, that is the #1 thing to focus on when you jump on ice. Point your toes hard as you take off (it gives your jumping leg MUCH more range of motion, which translates to much more height) and keep the toes pointed for the landing (to absorb the shock and prevent slipping off your blade). You also need to point the toes of your picking foot really hard on pick jumps in order to get the toepick in at the correct angle. Even K-picks will slip if you aren't pointing your picking foot enough. To re-train your feet to point, you might try doing some half jumps like one-foot half flips and one-foot half lutzes (pick with right and land forward on right toepick, immediately pushing off onto the left forward edge). Half axel is a good one, too (1 revolution, landing forward on right toe and pushing out onto left forward edge).

[Skate@Delaware]

Yes, that is the #1 thing to focus on when you jump on ice. Point your toes hard as you take off (it gives your jumping leg MUCH more range of motion, which translates to much more height) and keep the toes pointed for the landing (to absorb the shock and prevent slipping off your blade). You also need to point the toes of your picking foot really hard on pick jumps in order to get the toepick in at the correct angle. Even K-picks will slip if you aren't pointing your picking foot enough. To re-train your feet to point, you might try doing some half jumps like one-foot half flips and one-foot half lutzes (pick with right and land forward on right toepick, immediately pushing off onto the left forward edge). Half axel is a good one, too (1 revolution, landing forward on right toe and pushing out onto left forward edge).
I had (sometimes still) a bad habit of flat-footing my landings. Not a good thing to do. My coach has me do a simple exercise at the boards, just hold on, face the boards, bend and jump up making sure you are rolling off the toepicks, then when you land, you are landing ON your toepicks. Then do some simple jumps. This helps reinforce the exercise. I used to do this almost every time I practiced to set it into muscle memory. Eventually you won't have to do the exercise as often, only when you "regress"

[Bill_S]

I'm coming to this thread a little late, but I have the opposite problem - good height on ice and wimpy jumps on my PIC inlines. I always thought that the rubber wheels and toe stop absorbed some jump energy, but from the evidence above, it looks more like an issue of technique to me.

[Skate@Delaware]

I'm coming to this thread a little late, but I have the opposite problem - good height on ice and wimpy jumps on my PIC inlines. I always thought that the rubber wheels and toe stop absorbed some jump energy, but from the evidence above, it looks more like an issue of technique to me.
Maybe it's an issue of increased friction from the rubbery type of wheels on the floor-you skate on a roller rink floor? If so, there is a difference and an increase in friction then. I noticed a difference when I had PIC skates, they felt different almost "sticky" compared to my regular quad-skates. There are different wheels out there, I'm wondering if using a "floor-friendly" wheel would make a difference then?

[Pandora]

Thank you everyone for the good info!! After looking at a bunch of videos of elite/high level skaters it does look like the big differences on takeoffs are:

1. Pointing the toe on takeoff of the jump. (Thanks doubletoe!) Flexing the foot and jumping off the toe not the flat of the foot into the air. (This is VERY different from roller and DEFINITELY something I was not doing last time!!) I think this is what I was looking for!!!! :bow: :D Now, have to figure out how to actually DO it. :??
2. Speed into jump. Seems to add some height on the ice (not so much in roller).
3. Flow (timing). Seems to be linked to speed. We have this on roller, but seems to be linked more to speed on ice than it is on roller.
Will try working on these 3 things and will let you know how it goes......:D

Bill, you are right. It's gotta be technique. I think on roller we slam our toestops (on toe jumps) whereas on ice you are supposed to "push up" off the toe after "drawing" your legs together (never got the hang of this on ice which is why I can't do a 2lutz on ice). :cry: NO SLAMY, SLAMY on ice!!!:roll: On roller, slam that toestop as hard as you can and get your weight over it with bent knees (BOTH knees including the one that is striking the floor). I noticed on ice (because of the push technique) the picking leg is usually a LOT straighter than on roller (because we are slamming the toestop for height).

Wow!! Didn't realize so many of you are ex-roller and/or have tried inlines. That is GREAT!!:D Do any of you skate both??? Even just for exercise? (Very few roller clubs around anymore. Sad. :cry:)

[londonicechamp]

Hi

I do find that if I bend my knees more, the jumps could be a bit better.

And as for my toe loop and salchow, my coach told me yesterday, that the technique is to have the left arm slightly forward.

londonicechamp

[Pandora]

Hi!!:D

Yes, that is very true (on ice or roller). Must make sure you "check" your shoulder/side (left for ccw, like us, and right for cw). Or "hold it forward" (another way of saying it) on the takeoffs. This also works on IB (left foot for ccw) spins. The shoulder is the key. If it doesn't check strongly, everything does to heck. ;)
Curious fact: Most roller (and Katerina Witt) use an "arm lead" into axel/double axel for this reason. I guess on ice it is refered to as the "East German axel", and not really recommended since it is better to use both arms for lift. This style definitely checks the shoulder, but hampers the lead arm for any lift. Hint: You can usually spot an ex-roller on ice this way.;)

Yes, must remember to bend knees. (Sometimes I forget.) Usually takes a few forward landings to remind me....:roll:

[RachelSk8er]

Hi!!:D

Curious fact: Most roller (and Katerina Witt) use an "arm lead" into axel/double axel for this reason. I guess on ice it is refered to as the "East German axel", and not really recommended since it is better to use both arms for lift. This style definitely checks the shoulder, but hampers the lead arm for any lift. Hint: You can usually spot an ex-roller on ice this way.;)


Ha ha I tried to google this to see exactly what you're talking about, but googling Katarina Witt and axel only brought up articles about her brother, ironically named Axel. :lol: (I'm sure I can find it in a video of her on You Tube, but it's blocked @ work.)

[Pandora]

Oops, sorry.

Here is a roller skater doing 2axel with arm lead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmSD7lizHIg
And another...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alEy4-k5UEw
And another....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATPjxkpXnKI
And on inlines.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1K3C32uXYQ

Here is Katernia Witt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-rMfIyX4rM (2axel at 3:53).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erX8nr2m4bI (2axel at .23)
(Very young. Cute!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6cNaD7yYNA (2axel at .20)
Arm lead not as pronounced as on roller, but still there. ;) Don't think too many commentators picked up on it or, if so, dared mention it. (She is a 2x Olympic Champion, after all, and, I guess, it is considered "poor' technique.) But I do remember thinking it was a "roller axel" and then did hear one commentator once mention she had the "East German" axel. (So I guess the arm lead is what he was referring to.) My ice coach tried to break me of it. Called it "bad" technique because you are jumping "around" instead of out and snapping into the backspin......But this is how I jump and it is in my technique, so I think I will do my axel "East German" style since I don't have to worry about 3axel....

Think it was acceptable technique on ice back when. Here is some great old footage that shows skaters using it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbKFAhYdCPY (axel at .12)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G42i0gufEs (axels at .37) By the Olympic Champions, the Protopopovs!!

Wonder when it bacame "poor" technique on ice??:??

It is still considered "good" technique on roller. These world class men are using it on 3axels: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoXNGhtSqNI