New Blades -wrong but right

[katz in boots]

I've been on Ultima Matrix Freestyles for over a year and just have never felt comfortable with the 8' rocker and the toe pick configuration. Never felt like I was rolling up correctly to take off, especially on waltz jumps, but also salchows & loops. So, when I had the opportunity to buy new Phantom blades for about 1/2 the price I'd normally have to pay, I jumped at it.

The downside: they aren't my size. I've gone from 9 3/4" to 10". I skated on 10 1/3" for years (- my feet have gotten wider, not shorter though. Just different, less chunky boots.) The blades fit the boots, just, from toe-tip to heel, not much room to spare. I also took the opportunity to get the right blade in the correct position, it never felt quite right before.

I am surprised how much difference a 1/4" makes at the back. Suddenly it's okay to lean a little further back on the blade. Weird, but good. Better balance on back edges, eg for a lutz entry (though didn't try the jump today). Edges felt good, turns felt okay. Jumps, well, a mixed bag today. Did one loop, and it felt great, but salchows were icky.

Can't spin in them yet. Well, not forward spins, I did one backspin that felt great! Mind you, they do feel very sharp, maybe a little too sharp. They came factory sharpened, but as they felt a little rough, I also went over them with my 3/8" Profiler. I guess because the blade is wider than the matrix Freestyles, maybe I don't need that ROH?

I can tell it's going to take a while to get used to Phantoms again. Meanwhile, does anyone have any good tips for learning to do my spins again? Would them being too sharp make a lot of difference to spins?

[mintypoppet]

When I bought my FS blades, I had them sharpened at the same time, before I skated on them. Without my knowledge, the sharpener put a 5/16" ROH on them, instead of the 7/16" that I am used to. When I got on the ice, I couldn't spin - they were 'sticky' and generated loads of snow and wide skiddy spin tracings - but I thought I was just adjusting to the flatter rocker (7' to 8').

A couple of months later, I had them resharpened and was told that they were 5/16", and did I want to keep that ROH. I had them put back to 7/16", and all of my spins came back immediately.

So yes, it does make a difference! Certainly more than I would have anticipated.

[doubletoe]

You aren't supposed to skate on the factory sharpening; you are supposed to get them sharpened before you skate on them. I think the factory sharpening is 7/16", which is deeper than the 1/2" many of us use. That might be one reason why they would feel too sharp/grabby.

[katz in boots]

You aren't supposed to skate on the factory sharpening; you are supposed to get them sharpened before you skate on them. I think the factory sharpening is 7/16", which is deeper than the 1/2" many of us use. That might be one reason why they would feel too sharp/grabby.

Well I've been on 3/8" which is 6/16" with my previous blades, and they never felt that sharp. I think it's cos they were narrower. Maybe I'll have to invest in a 1/2" profiler kit :roll:

Thanks Mintypoppet, good to know it may just be the sharpening.

[caffn8me]

I've been on Ultima Matrix Freestyles for over a year and just have never felt comfortable with the 8' rocker and the toe pick configuration. Never felt like I was rolling up correctly to take off, especially on waltz jumps, but also salchows & loops. So, when I had the opportunity to buy new Phantom blades for about 1/2 the price I'd normally have to pay, I jumped at it.I had a brand new pair of MK Professional blades which I fitted to new boots (Wifa Champion Deluxe) last week. The factory grind from MK was horrifically bad. The right blades was semi-acceptable but the left blade kept going round in circles when trying to do a one foot glide. It did this going forward and backward. I took them to be sharpened by John Turner (http://johnturner-tcg.co.uk/index.php) on Wednesday and his first comment was how different the heights of the edges were on the left blade. The inside edge was very high indeed compared to the outside and it took him a few minutes to get things level.

Once he'd done that, everything felt absolutely beautiful. The feel was transformed.

Don't trust your factory grind, it may not be far enough off to feel obviously wrong but you might be amazed how much better things feel when they have been sharpened properly. I was.

Good luck and I hope you enjoy your new blades,

Sarah

[Query]

FWIIW, I've been told by a few sharpeners that Ultima factory sharpenings are just fine, but MK factory sharpenings have a reputation among some as being erratic.

I honestly don't know all the consequences of picking a blade of the "wrong" length. I'm going to take some foolish guesses, which may be completely wrong.

Most blade manufacturers originally create a "sweet spot" - also called an area of "spin rocker" - which is where a change in rocker makes it easier to spin - about midway through where they guess the ball of the foot will be on average feet of the right size. So you might find the spot - which is a bit subtle and hard to see - is forwards of where you expect it to be. So the blade does not spin well in quite the place you are used to to. You might try finding the new balance point. Try rocking a little forward or back until you find the place where it spins most quietly.

Sweet spots are created as the intersection of two rocker curves at an angle (cusp), as a length of decreased rocker diameter, as a gradually decreasing rocker diameter as you approach the end, or as some sort of combination of the above. Try tracing the blade, or photocopying it. As you move the blade along the tracing or photocopy profile, you will notice a point where it starts to deviate from the main curve.

Think of a top. It has a sweet spot at the bottom, which helps it spin there, because that is the point that has the least friction for spin.

If you don't like the sweet spot position, a good sharpener - including yourself if you work at it with the pro-filer - can move the sweet spot to where you are most comfortable spinning. It's not a big deal - not much metal to remove - if one is careful. But don't be surprised if the concept of a sweet spot confuses some sharpeners, even some very good professionals.

Incidentally, if you don't make a point of maintaining the sweet spot, many, perhaps most, sharpeners will gradually smooth it away, until you have a single uniform rocker curve, because that is what sharpening machines are designed to easily produce. Likewise your Pro-filer will smooth it out too - though because the Pro-filer has no built in rocker (that would require an hourglass shaped stone instead of a cylindrical one), it will gradually tend to flatten the overall rocker as well (increasing the radius), unless you make a point of maintaining it.

On the other hand, AFAIK, most blade manufacturers do not place a second sweet spot at the back, which might help explain why you wouldn't have as much initial trouble spinning back there - the only change would be the rocker, not the position.

This source
http://www.tidewaterice.com/mkphantom.htm

says the Phantom has 7/16" hollow. If you genuinely went over the blade with the 3/8" Profiler, but only did a light sharpening that way, you might now have an uneven hollow, which could also make spinning and turning uneven. Look at the blades - that could be pretty bad.

The 3/8" ROH will mean the blade will wear down a little more quickly then it would if you had a 7/16" sharpener. And it will mean a little more bite. (Because the wider blade means a given radius hollow will create a little bigger angle of change at the edge.) That extra bite could alter the way you spin and turn a little too.

The way I see it, if you use the Profiler the way the manufacturer recommends - creating a lip or burr, and then bending it into an edge - the exact hollow is not that important to how it feels, because that ultrathin edge bites so strongly the hollow isn't that important.

If the tail is too long (meaning you keep crossing blades and tripping over them), a good sharpener could grind them shorter - make sure they don't round them off, hockey style.

Anyway, many of us find it takes a few weeks to get used to a new blade shape. Maybe you should just give it some time, before you start reshaping it.

[katz in boots]

Most blade manufacturers originally create a "sweet spot" - also called an area of "spin rocker" - which is where a change in rocker makes it easier to spin - about midway through where they guess the ball of the foot will be on average feet of the right size. So you might find the spot - which is a bit subtle and hard to see - is forwards of where you expect it to be.
.
Because the front of the blade is in the correct position, surely the sweet spot should be in approximately the same position too? Incidentally, I did have 10 1/3" blades prior to my Freestyles a year ago, so I suspect it won't be a big issue. By the time I finished with them, my poor old Phantoms (over 20 years old) actually had concave rather than convex profile where the sweet spot should be :lol:


If you don't like the sweet spot position, a good sharpener - including yourself if you work at it with the pro-filer - can move the sweet spot to where you are most comfortable spinning. It's not a big deal - not much metal to remove - if one is careful. But don't be surprised if the concept of a sweet spot confuses some sharpeners, even some very good professionals.

Professionals? What professionals? No seriously, I got the Profiler cos I was sick of paying other people to ruin my blades. The idea of trying to change the sweet spot myself is pretty scary though.

The 3/8" ROH will mean the blade will wear down a little more quickly then it would if you had a 7/16" sharpener. And it will mean a little more bite. (Because the wider blade means a given radius hollow will create a little bigger angle of change at the edge.) That extra bite could alter the way you spin and turn a little too.

I will take your advice and have a very close look at the blades again. I was only trying to smooth them because the factory sharpening felt rough. The blades feel too sharp. Can't spin, can't snowplough stop. They do feel the way my old Phantoms felt when I accidentally got a 5/16" ROH sharpening instead of a 7/16". Never had that sort of "can't skate on newly sharpened blades" effect ever when using the profiler on my Freestyles. So either it is the wider blades requiring a shallower ROH, or I need to give them a really thorough sharpening with the 3/8".
( Incidentally, if I have to switch to a 1/2" ROH, I have to buy a whole new Profiler diamond & fine stone & holder. You can't swap ROH within the same holder. An extra expense I didn't anticipate when buying blades. )


If the tail is too long (meaning you keep crossing blades and tripping over them), a good sharpener could grind them shorter - make sure they don't round them off, hockey style.

Hopefully with just a 1/4" inch extra length, and still a 1/3" less than I used for so many years, it won't be too much of a problem. I've only skated on them the once, and I definitely felt more secure when I got used to the extra length.

Anyway, many of us find it takes a few weeks to get used to a new blade shape. Maybe you should just give it some time, before you start reshaping it.

Absolutely! Reshaping is not something I want to try. Love my Profiler, and I may be brave (though it's more a case of necessity being the mother of DIY) but not that brave !:lol: