No Oberstdorf Adult Comp in Skating Magazine?

[flutzilla1]

I just got my SKATING magazine today and was very disappointed that there was nothing on the ISU Adult competition, not even results, in the magazine -- especially since Team USA did so well! Does anyone know what happened? It's especially surprising since there is a 1 page article and a full list of the Theatre on Ice results in this same issue, and that competition took place 3 weeks after Oberstdorf.

[Virtualsk8r]

I think one of the issues surrounding all adult invitational competitions - is the fact that there is no qualifying for it -- anyone that meets the criteria and has the money to travel etc. can enter.

I know the adults in our area keep expecting the same treatment when they jet off to Germany -- as the skaters who make it to nationals! Always a bit of a pet peeve of mine because the competitive skaters who qualify through regionals, sectionals etc.. to get to nationals -- had to beat someone to get there, while the adults who enter invitational competitions just have to pay the entry fee.

Don't get me wrong - I have great respect for adults and teach a few that do enter these competitions -- but even they realize that winning a medal in Germany by placing third in a three-entry competition is not the same as the events where there are many more skaters.

:P We even have skaters in our area who brag about being world bronze medallists (and coming last ) and demand the club put their names up on the championship banner.

That said - I always like to check the results from all competitions that I am interested in so I can see how my friends and collegues have done.

[Clarice]

I'm afraid I have to agree with Virtualsk8r on this one. Oberstdorf is certainly a big deal to adult skaters who participate, but it's still an invitational and I wouldn't expect to see the results of any invitational in Skating Magazine.

This competition does get mentioned in the Adult Corner, which talks about adult skating in countries other than the US, but doesn't mention any particular skaters.

[Mel On Ice]

But it's still U.S. skaters representing the organization in an international competition recognized by the ISU. It may not be Worlds, but it's something.

[flutzilla1]

But it's still U.S. skaters representing the organization in an international competition recognized by the ISU. It may not be Worlds, but it's something.

I agree with Mel. Besides -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- weren't the Theatre on Ice competitions that were listed in the magazine also open to anyone who wanted to compete as well? It says that the top three who finished at it are eligible for a competition next year in France, but as far as I can tell the competition reported on in the magazine was not a competition that required you to qualify to participate.

[flutzilla1]

Don't get me wrong - I have great respect for adults and teach a few that do enter these competitions -- but even they realize that winning a medal in Germany by placing third in a three-entry competition is not the same as the events where there are many more skaters.

One of the ladies competing for the US at Oberstdorf finished 3rd out of 18 skaters in her group, which I think is an amazing accomplishment. In fact, the I and II age groups of both Bronze and Silver ladies this year had at least 9 skaters per group, so I'm not sure where your 3 skaters-per-group number is coming from...?

[Stormy]

Was anyone from the US there actually covering the event though? USFS isn't going to have anything to print story-wise if no one wrote one.

[Skittl1321]

I agree with Mel. Besides -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- weren't the Theatre on Ice competitions that were listed in the magazine also open to anyone who wanted to compete as well? It says that the top three who finished at it are eligible for a competition next year in France, but as far as I can tell the competition reported on in the magazine was not a competition that required you to qualify to participate.

I think theatre on ice is an open event, but the "champions" qualify for a final round, that is considered by USFS to be a national level competition. So it's like adult nationals, but with "sectionals" earlier in that same competition.

[flutzilla1]

I think theatre on ice is an open event, but the "champions" qualify for a final round, that is considered by USFS to be a national level competition. So it's like adult nationals, but with "sectionals" earlier in that same competition.

Oh ok, that does make sense then.

Also, hasn't the magazine featured a listing of the Oberstdorf results in previous years? I remember seeing them in there before.

[techskater]

I think theatre on ice is an open event, but the "champions" qualify for a final round, that is considered by USFS to be a national level competition. So it's like adult nationals, but with "sectionals" earlier in that same competition.

No, that is not the case - Nationals was a totally open event as was the International (second day). This is the third year of TOI Nationals and it is a growing segment of the sport with less test restrictions than Synchro. The big excitement this year was that the top 3 were invited to Worlds next spring in Nice.

[Skittl1321]

Sorry- I was thinking of national showcase, which you had to qualify for by medaling at an artistic event, and had qualifying rounds. That's not the same as theatre on ice, but I can see why USFS would publicize it, it's an event they want to grow!

[hanca]

I'm afraid I have to agree with Virtualsk8r on this one. Oberstdorf is certainly a big deal to adult skaters who participate, but it's still an invitational and I wouldn't expect to see the results of any invitational in Skating Magazine.


Well, everything is relative. As you said, for the adults who compete there it is a big deal, for those who don't compete it may mean nothing.

Then again, WHAT IS a big deal? For some adults children competing may not be a big deal. If you take it relatively, then a big deal would be only seniors Worlds, then probably Europeans and 4 continents and Grand Prix Finals. One could argue that Junior Worlds is not big deal because they haven't achieved anything on the senior level yet...

For people who don't skate perhaps none of the above is a big deal.

In my opinion, Oberstdorf competition should be covered in the magazine. I can see why someone may argue that the competitors did not have to beat anyone to get there, but they still do represent the country, do their best and as far as I noticed, there has been more then 3 participants in the category. In fact, in the category I would belong to (bronze class 1) there was 16 competitors this year. (I didn't go, I don't think I am good enough yet). And for example, Silver class 2 had 18 competitors.

[RachelSk8er]

I don't look at this as the same as singles, pairs, dance or synchro skaters qualifying for nationals and placing high enough to earn, based on their placement, the opportunity to compete internationally. Adults still work hard, take this opportunity very seriously, however, being able to go still mainly comes down to being able to afford the trip and the time off work or away from family or other obligations. I'd love to be able to go in the future, but to me personally it will never be the equivalent of going to internationals with my synchro team as Team USA when I as a teenager.

That being said, I think it still should be covered because it's important to show kid, teenage and college age skaters out there that there are great opportunities for them to continue in skating as an adult, regardless of whether they're a 16 yr old in learn to skate or a 16 yr old with her senior free or everyone else in between. Anything that promotes adult skating as a sport with opportunites for any skater is a good thing in my book. Plus, it's always nice to see how our friends did (I know via the internet, facebook and other sources, by the time it's published this is often old news to us, but it's still nice).

And Stormy is right, if no one is covering it, you can't expect an article.

[coskater64]

As someone who went, I don't think anyone covered it for US figure skating. Even though we did send in information and it was posted on icenetwork, in the INcrowd section of the website. The results are listed in Eissport magazine which is a German skating magazine.

I tend to agree that it is an invitational event and whoever wants to go can...
The comp has gone from being US and CA dominated to more European countries and even skaters coming from Japan this year. The event has a more international flavor currently as it has picked up more competitors from around the world.

I will never claim any "world" title as I am cognizant of my age and how silly that would sound. If you ever have the opportunity to go to the event I would recommend it, very well run, awesome party, and really a beautiful location which for the last 3 years has actually had sunny weather.

My .02 cents.

[hanca]

I wanted to say, although I agree that adults don't have as tough competition as the children do (adults competing abroad don't have to go through the sectionals, regionals etc), I still don't believe that competing abroad is for adults anyhow smaller achievment than for the younger competitors. In lots of countries, there is not that many people skating, so the competitors don't have to go through all those levels such as sectionals, regionals etc. Would anyone argue that those competitors shouldn't be perhaps at Juniors Worlds because they don't have sectionals and regionals in their countries and therefore it wasn't such achievment for them to get there? I think it is not adult skaters' fault that there is not such fierce competition, but that shouldn't diminish their achievment.

Would anyone try to say that for example the Worlds at the beginning of 20th century were not big deal, because there was not such a strong competition and people that were skating were only those who could afford it? Let's say, Sonja Henie...was it achievment or not? How many ladies were skating that time? What about those who could not afford it?

I really hate when someone says about adults going to Oberstdorf that it comes down only to being able to afford the trip and the time off work. Because it is the same on all levels! I know lots of promising young skaters that had to stop competing or stop skating because they couldn't afford it. It is funny that this argument about competing abroad based only who can afford it is always only about adults - I have never heard someone saying that perhaps Michelle Kwan shouldn't win competition because there is somewhere in USA some "Jane Smith" (or any other no name girl) who would have more talent but had to leave sport before she even got to juniors because they did not have money. Yes, people who went to Oberstdorf were the ones who could afford it, but the same applies with every level of figure skaters.

[Clarice]

I really like what Rachel had to say above.

I hear what you're saying, hanca, but it still isn't the same to me. Adult skaters who go to Oberstdorf chose to go themselves. Kids who represent their country internationally were chosen by their federation. If US Figure Skating sent the top finishers at Adult Nationals to Oberstdorf to represent the US, then I would think it was the same.

That said, I sure hope I can go someday...

[hanca]

I really like what Rachel had to say above.

I hear what you're saying, hanca, but it still isn't the same to me. Adult skaters who go to Oberstdorf chose to go themselves. Kids who represent their country internationally were chosen by their federation. If US Figure Skating sent the top finishers at Adult Nationals to Oberstdorf to represent the US, then I would think it was the same.

That said, I sure hope I can go someday...

I do agree that I would not claim that I am a world champion if I won the Oberstdorf, because I wouldn't feel that I have right to claim the title with my single jumps (competing in Bronze category). However, if I won the highest (I think Gold) category, I may feel differently.

Then again, if you are going to say "Kids who represent their country internationally were chosen by their federation." - what about for example the countries who sent to the senior Worlds the only proper skater they have because there is no one else? Yes, they were chosen by their federation, but it is not like if the federation could have chosen someone else!

On one side I think there is not enough opportunities for adults to compete and if the Oberstdorf was only for the winners of the adult nationals competition from each country, the rest of us would miss out, but on the other hand I do agree that it would be nice if when you go there, you could know that you are competing with the winners from each country. I am wondering, if the federations could make sure that the winners from their country have the opportunity to go there by contributing financially... Probably not. Too many categories and if it should support the winner from each category (gold/silver/bronze, class 1-3, dance/free), it would be very expensive.

[skaternum]

We've had this conversation multiple times on here. :) In my opinion, regardless of how hard you work, how few elite skaters some countries have, or any other extraneous factor, the bottom line is that any adult skater anywhere in the ISU known world can pay their money, buy a ticket, and compete at Oberstdorf. Same as the non-qualifying events at US Adult Nationals. Every time I say that, I get a few people slamming me, but it's true. :giveup: This in no way detracts from the wonderful skating and hard work you see at these comps, but they're simply not comparable to the big comps where you have to qualify just to go.

[coskater64]

This conversation has been done several times. The ISU all adult competition is an OPEN event, there is no qualifying and there will most likely never be an adult "world" event as there are no set levels for the adults across the boards. A world championship requires skaters to qualify for the event through their countries nationals. In the US we have championship events at gold, int/nov, jr/sr for free skate and the gold dance and pairs. Canada is different, the UK is different, in Germany skaters don't leave gold until they have 2 flip and 2 lutz. Different countries have different standards and expectations for skaters at the levels.

One of the things being over looked is how difficult it is to skate when you are older, flexibility goes away in your 40's and 50's but skaters like Natalie Shaby continue to skate beautifully. Sometimes, its is not the winning but the fact that we put forth the effort and enjoy the sport for the satisfaction it gives us. I may never win another event, but because I enjoy the sport I always win. I get to spend time with my friends and meet new people from around the world.

To sum it up: it is what it is, an open event, in a great location at a beautiful rink. If you can afford to go, do so. No federation will pay your way, it ain't gonna happen.

Leslie8O

[vesperholly]

I think it would be nice to cover it, being that SKATING magazine is a not-so-tiny publication and its goal and responsibility is to cover all aspects of figure skating. SKATING magazine editors are not the arbiters of what is important in the figure skating world. That being said, certainly they would exercise some news judgment as to what kind of coverage Oberstdorf would get. I don't think anyone expects a cover story and six pages of articles and photos. But a small blurb, maybe a Team USA photo, would be really nice.

Thinking more broadly, I'd really like to see SKATING magazine have regular sections devoted to different aspects of the sports. A full page of "what's happening in ... " for synchro, adults, basic skills, coaches, etc. SKATING is a membership-oriented magazine. The elites are absolutely important and newsworthy, but they are a sizeable minority of the membership.

[Clarice]

I totally agree with what vesperholly just said, especially the last part. I know it probably sounds so far like I've been arguing why Oberstdorf "shouldn't" be covered by Skating Magazine, but that's not really what I think. My point was more that I don't expect Skating to cover it, given that it's an invitational and they don't cover invitationals. However, I think it would be really great if they did, for all the reasons vesperholly just gave.

[fsk8r]

A world championship requires skaters to qualify for the event through their countries nationals.

World Championships don't require skaters to qualify for the event through their countries nationals. Each country gets to set their own criteria for who they send. For seniors last year, the skater the UK sent to Senior mens last year was not the Senior Mens champion. He was the skater which had met the criteria NISA laid out in advance which was getting a score in major IJS competition. In this case the guy qualified by hitting the score at a Grand Prix. Come the British he didn't even win. The guy who won didn't have a higher score so didn't go to Europeans.

So it's not necessarily as easy as saying that a championship is filled with the individual countries champions. It's who each skating federation choose to send to represent them.

And whilst Oberstdorf is currently an Open competition for adults I don't see what it can't become a proper World Championships. I've heard of 40 year olds winning their age category in Triathlon and being called the world champion and having to fund their own trip. They're just going with the endorsement of their federation.

[antmanb]

World Championships don't require skaters to qualify for the event through their countries nationals. Each country gets to set their own criteria for who they send. For seniors last year, the skater the UK sent to Senior mens last year was not the Senior Mens champion. He was the skater which had met the criteria NISA laid out in advance which was getting a score in major IJS competition. In this case the guy qualified by hitting the score at a Grand Prix. Come the British he didn't even win. The guy who won didn't have a higher score so didn't go to Europeans.


Although Elliott Hilton did have to sue NISA in order to get to the world championships and force them to stand by their original criteria but the point does remain the same i suppose!

Ant

[fsk8r]

Although Elliott Hilton did have to sue NISA in order to get to the world championships and force them to stand by their original criteria but the point does remain the same i suppose!

Ant

I think the alternative they were going to send to Worlds hadn't won the British? Or am I getting the facts confused as well.
But all goes to show that the criteria aren't necessarily related to National Championships.

[Skittl1321]

Thinking more broadly, I'd really like to see SKATING magazine have regular sections devoted to different aspects of the sports. A full page of "what's happening in ... " for synchro, adults, basic skills, coaches, etc. SKATING is a membership-oriented magazine. The elites are absolutely important and newsworthy, but they are a sizeable minority of the membership.

They do exactly this- not necessarily a what's happening, but a spotlight on each of the groups. If you look through the magazine, they always have an adult section (this month it's about different countries programs), a synchro spread (this month it was about a training camp), a basic skills spread (about basic skills in the schools). These are all regular features. The other features they have are the ask Mr. Edge thing, and the Kid's Spotlight/Kids Questions. So the only thing missing from your list is the coaches page.

I think the person who pointed out that no one WROTE an article to submit for SKATING is probably the biggest reason it wasn't covered.

[Mrs Redboots]

My coach used to tease me that I was his only international Gold medal skater, but we both knew exactly how much that was worth. Similarly, one year my husband was technically British AND French adult champion - at the lowest level and oldest age group!

The international competitions are great fun, and well worth going to at least once, if you can scare up the fare and the entry fees (oh, we did miss most of our American friends at the Mountain Cup this year - only coskater64 and blueIIImoon and one other!), but they are no more prestigious, really, than your local Open.

Having said that, Oberstdorf is an ISU competition and you do skate representing your country. The organisers even rushed out to buy a Republic of Ireland flag this year, as they didn't have one, and the flags of the competing nations are flown over the rink during the competition!

[antmanb]

I think the alternative they were going to send to Worlds hadn't won the British? Or am I getting the facts confused as well.
But all goes to show that the criteria aren't necessarily related to National Championships.

No i think you're right about that. I think (though i'm going from memory so it could be very faulty!) that the criteria to qualify to worlds and europeans was to attain a certain score in the LP (which was set at the 24th place finisher i.e. the person that qualified for the LP at worlds and Europeans respectively) or above at named competitions. If more than one person attained the relevant score then the person with the highest SP+LP score at their named competition would go. From memory the winner of nationals didn't get a qualifying score and Elliott beat Matt on the total score so qualified for Europeans and Worlds. After Euorpeans NISA went back on their criteria and named Matt to the world team and that kicked off the legal action.

Ant

[RachelSk8er]

I really hate when someone says about adults going to Oberstdorf that it comes down only to being able to afford the trip and the time off work. Because it is the same on all levels! I know lots of promising young skaters that had to stop competing or stop skating because they couldn't afford it. It is funny that this argument about competing abroad based only who can afford it is always only about adults - I have never heard someone saying that perhaps Michelle Kwan shouldn't win competition because there is somewhere in USA some "Jane Smith" (or any other no name girl) who would have more talent but had to leave sport before she even got to juniors because they did not have money. Yes, people who went to Oberstdorf were the ones who could afford it, but the same applies with every level of figure skaters.

No, the affordability for internationals doesn't apply to other levels. Yes, affordability in the sense of being able to skate period, but not being able to compete internationally.

In the US, if you earn a spot to compete internationally through US figure skating based on your placement at nationals, in most cases your airfare, hotel, entry fees, everything are covered by US Figure Skating (I am not sure how it works for all disciplines, for synchro the number of top junior or senior teams it applies to changes from year to year...at one time it was top 6 in each division from nationals got internationals and everythinig is covered. I think right now it's top 4 are funded, teams placing 5-6th get internationals but they are not fully funded). Skaters who go to worlds are always covered.

When my synchro team went to internationals in France, Sweden, Canada and Florida in the mid 90s-2000, we had travel, hotel, entry fees for the entire team and coaches covered (maybe our manager too), plus a representative from USFS and a doctor were sent with us. Overseas we also had a local leader to take us around and make sure we got where we needed to be. We were given team USA jackets and pants to wear and keep. One year I know the team also got some extra money to bring in a choreographer and a dietician to monitor all of us in the months leading up to the competition. USFS also sent judges to monitor us periodically. All we had to pay for as far as internationals were concerned was food and passports. (Even in years where we kind of got the shaft and were sent to an international a few hours away in Canada, they were covered.) Sure, our parents or other family who wanted to go still had to pay their own way, but my parents never made overseas trips, many of them didn't.

If I were to compete at the adult international, I'd have to pay for everything.

[coskater64]

I will say this again: Icenetwork covered the event via the Incrowd (http://www.icenetworkincrowd.com/2009-ISU-Adult-Competition/blog/68/72859.html). You can see the results on Eissport magazine. Oberstdorf has been covered in the past by US figure skating but this year there were fewer American skaters and no one covered the event. No other invitationals are covered by US figure skating for the kids but there is an adult page in US figure skating that is currently talking about adult skating in other countries.

As someone who has gone to this event for all 5 years I don't get what all the whining is about, they didn't cover it this year, big deal. I skated gold and now I skate masters, its an open event. I go to hang out with my friends who live in Europe...can we move along.???

[hanca]

No, the affordability for internationals doesn't apply to other levels. Yes, affordability in the sense of being able to skate period, but not being able to compete internationally.

In the US, if you earn a spot to compete internationally through US figure skating based on your placement at nationals, in most cases your airfare, hotel, entry fees, everything are covered by US Figure Skating (I am not sure how it works for all disciplines, for synchro the number of top junior or senior teams it applies to changes from year to year...at one time it was top 6 in each division from nationals got internationals and everythinig is covered. I think right now it's top 4 are funded, teams placing 5-6th get internationals but they are not fully funded). Skaters who go to worlds are always covered.

When my synchro team went to internationals in France, Sweden, Canada and Florida in the mid 90s-2000, we had travel, hotel, entry fees for the entire team and coaches covered (maybe our manager too), plus a representative from USFS and a doctor were sent with us. Overseas we also had a local leader to take us around and make sure we got where we needed to be. We were given team USA jackets and pants to wear and keep. One year I know the team also got some extra money to bring in a choreographer and a dietician to monitor all of us in the months leading up to the competition. USFS also sent judges to monitor us periodically. All we had to pay for as far as internationals were concerned was food and passports. (Even in years where we kind of got the shaft and were sent to an international a few hours away in Canada, they were covered.) Sure, our parents or other family who wanted to go still had to pay their own way, but my parents never made overseas trips, many of them didn't.

If I were to compete at the adult international, I'd have to pay for everything.

Well, that may be in the USA. It seems that your skating asociation has plenty of money to do so. As far as I am aware, the Czech Republic ladies champion attended Worlds and paid her own expenses. It depends on your federation if they send you and pay for it, or if they 'send you' (after you win your country's championships) but you pay your own expenses. Therefore one can argue that at all levels, competing is about what you can afford.

[blue111moon]

From what I was told by several parents of US competitors, the funding from USFS doesn't begin to cover the expenses of those skaters assigned to international competitions, especially the JGP and B internationals. Even Worlds and Olympics aren't totally free rides.

USFS has cut back a lot on the spending in the last decade or so. Hence the prize money at the GPs and the grants for high finishes at Nationals.

None of which has anything to do with adults or the Adult Internationals. I suspect that the only reason there was no coverage in Skating is because none of the US participants submitted anything. Unlike some of the other publications, Skating Magazine does not have a huge staff of roving reporters they send to cover events. They depend a lot on free-lancers.

[skatingpanda]

they always have an adult section (this month it's about different countries programs)

This sounds really interesting. Do you remember which countries it's about?

Does somebody know if there is a way to access the article online? (I am outside the US)

[Skittl1321]

This sounds really interesting. Do you remember which countries it's about?

Does somebody know if there is a way to access the article online? (I am outside the US)

I THINK it was Germany, France, and something else... It's a 3 part series, so they'll profile 9 countries. Just a one column blurb about the state of adult skating. It was more or less a "you've got it good there" sort of thing. The Germany article talked about Obsterdor, and France about Mountain Cup, but both said that adult skating is hard to come by, even though there are adults who want to skate, and programs aren't always very welcoming, and there isn't a lot of competition opportunity without travel.

[rlichtefeld]

This sounds really interesting. Do you remember which countries it's about?

Does somebody know if there is a way to access the article online? (I am outside the US)

It doesn't seem that the Adult Corner article is online.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Magazine.asp?Issue=43358

Rob

[manleywoman]

I will say this again: Icenetwork covered the event via the Incrowd (http://www.icenetworkincrowd.com/2009-ISU-Adult-Competition/blog/68/72859.html). You can see the results on Eissport magazine. Oberstdorf has been covered in the past by US figure skating but this year there were fewer American skaters and no one covered the event. No other invitationals are covered by US figure skating for the kids but there is an adult page in US figure skating that is currently talking about adult skating in other countries.

As someone who has gone to this event for all 5 years I don't get what all the whining is about, they didn't cover it this year, big deal. I skated gold and now I skate masters, its an open event. I go to hang out with my friends who live in Europe...can we move along.???

Well said lady!

[Thin-Ice]

There are also "standard track" international competitions that are not covered by SKATING magazine. One of the coaches at my rink takes a whole herd of kids to Belgium every year for a competition that has competitors from around the world. But they all decide they are going, pay all their own way and also have their country announced when they compete. But I know about this event only because that couple of weeks the rink is really empty (woo-hoo!) and the kids come back and talk about how they skated in Belgium and ate chocolate when the coach wasn't looking. I don't even know the name of this event... but in some ways, it sounds like Mountain Cup or Obertsdorf... really cool international competitions that skaters choose to go to and fund their own trips.