Spins of a different nature question

[RachelSk8er]

My coach and I were going over my program today to finalize it for Peach next week. For silver (well, I guess all levels), it says "spins must be of different nature (e.g. spin combinations with/without change of foot and/or change of position,
spins with only 1 position, flying entry, etc.)"

I originally had a layback, sit-back sit, and a flying camel-forward sit. I thought those were ok since there was a solo spin, a spin w/a change of foot and no change of position, and a spin with a flying entry/change of foot/change of position. He said the last two weren't of a different nature (he was looking down a sheet of IJS coding) so we replaced the sit-back sit with a camel-sit-broken leg all on the same foot.

Judges/coaches out there--can anyone confirm that this is right under 6.0 adult?? (Not that I don't trust my coach, he knows his stuff, I'm just sad we had to take out a spin I've been working hard on!)

Last year I had the flying camel as my solo spin, a camel-sit and a sit-back sit, so they were clearly different either way you look at it.

[sk8er1964]

Layback - spin in one position, no change of foot (LSp)

sit-back sit - spin in one position, change of foot (CSSp)

flying camel-forward sit - change of position, no change of foot. (CoSp)

I'm no expert, but I think they're all of a different nature. In IJS they would all have different codes (Edited to add them).

ETA: Here's the IJS codes: http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/200809-SP-SOV.pdf

[ibreakhearts66]

Layback - spin in one position, no change of foot (LSp)

sit-back sit - spin in one position, change of foot (CSSp)

flying camel-forward sit - change of position, no change of foot. (CoSp)

I'm no expert, but I think they're all of a different nature. In IJS they would all have different codes (Edited to add them).

ETA: Here's the IJS codes: http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/200809-SP-SOV.pdf

The flying camel to forward sit would actually be a FCCoSp--change of foot combo spin with a flying entry.

It seems to me that the spin layout including the flying camel would be fine, but I'm no expert. Might your coach just have gotten confused while looking at the code list? The origibal layout had 3 different codes--LSp, CSSp and FCCoSp. The new one also has 3 codes--LSp, CSSp and and CoSp.

[RachelSk8er]

I'm not quite sure, and I don't even compete under IJS so all I'm concerned about right now is that they're "different enough" under 6.0 (he did my program with IJS in mind so if I compete open juv at local comps or if/when I move up to gold, all we have to do is add 30 sec of program and not re-choreograph the existing program).

I'll do the camel-sit next week at Peach since that's what I've been practicing. With my test last week, I've spent more time on that spin than the sit-sit anyway.

[singerskates]

Your coach is right to change the spins because the first two spins are spins in "one position". Both the Layback (Lsp) and Sit Change Backsit ( CSsp) are spins in one position. Just because you change feet doesn't mean you change position when you go from forward sit to back sit. It's still a sit spin.

Do you have more variations in your Layback or do you have more variations in your Sit change Back Sit? Go with the stronger spin.

You say you're doing a Flying Camel-Forward Sit ? Are you landing your Flying Camel forward or backward?
If you're landing your Flying Camel forward and then doing the Forward Sit, the code is FCosp. If you're landing your Flying Camel backwards and then doing a forward Sit spin, the code is FCCosp.

I looked on the USFS IJS list of codes and it doesn't list all the posible spins like it does on our Skate Canada Code Of Values. I had to go to our Skate Canada list to get the FCCosp code.

[RachelSk8er]

Your coach is right to change the spins because the first two spins are spins in "one position". Both the Layback (Lsp) and Sit Change Backsit ( CSsp) are spins in one position. Just because you change feet doesn't mean you change position when you go from forward sit to back sit. It's still a sit spin.



No, a plain upright solo spin (in this case a layback) is coded differently than a spin with a change of foot but no change of position (in this case a sit-back sit). (Now that I know where to find the code sheet...thanks Ibreakhearts).

I should be fine with my spins as I originally choreographed the program. The way it's worded in the well balanced chart for 6.0, it says spins of a different nature and gives examples (spins with/without change of foot, spins with no change of position, flying entry), and as far as that goes they're different. I'll figure out on practice ice the morning of Peach which to use. The layback and flying camel-forward sit are staying. Both my sit-sit and my camel-sit are never both consistent on the same day, so it depends on which one is behaving. I hate spinning!

[NoVa Sk8r]

You say you're doing a Flying Camel-Forward Sit ? Are you landing your Flying Camel forward or backward?How, pray tell, do you land a flying camel forward? :??

[saras]

How, pray tell, do you land a flying camel forward? :??

you don't. but you can do a flying camel, and then change position and feet to a forward sit.

[NoVa Sk8r]

you don't. but you can do a flying camel, and then change position and feet to a forward sit.Right (but that's a FCCoSp). But the poster above said, "If you're landing your Flying Camel forward and then doing the Forward Sit, the code is FCoSp."

[singerskates]

How, pray tell, do you land a flying camel forward? :??

You take off an land on the same foot to do a forward flying camel. They are very difficult to do and very few do them. I'm not at the fying camel stage.

But I'm starting to do the Forward Flying Upright Spin (code: FUsp) in which I take off from my left foot and then land on the left foot. I Showed one to my coach last Friday.

[hanca]

You take off an land on the same foot to do a forward flying camel. They are very difficult to do and very few do them. I'm not at the fying camel stage.

But I'm starting to do the Forward Flying Upright Spin (code: FUsp) in which I take off from my left foot and then land on the left foot. I Showed one to my coach last Friday.

Forward flying upright spin? :o Do you have video? I have never seen that! I never realised that it is possible at all. But it does sound interesting!

And I would love to see the Forward flying camel too, if anyone could record it on video, please. I have never seen it and unfortunately my imagination is a bit limited. :?? So in theory, you would do like a normal camel spin - go into it from back crossovers, then left forward outside edge (for CCW spin) and then when you do the three turn you would jump up? Or do you go into it the same way as into back camel (right forward inside edge) and then hop onto the right leg? :??

[sk8er1964]

The flying camel to forward sit would actually be a FCCoSp--change of foot combo spin with a flying entry.

Yes. Good catch. :)

[NoVa Sk8r]

You take off an land on the same foot to do a forward flying camel. They are very difficult to do and very few do them. I'm not at the flying camel stage.Right. But I have never ever heard or seen anyone do this. It would be amazing to see! (Add that to the change layback and flying back layback category.)

[ibreakhearts66]

My coach and I frequently experiment with spins, and I've done a flying forward camel. The way we do, and this was just kind of experimenting, was to go into it much like a flying sit, but in mid air, I open up and throw my left arm/shoulder back and leg back to hit the camel. I have to say, experimenting with the timing produced some spectacular but harmless falls. I haven't worked on them in ages, but if I can get them to look even somewhat respectable, I'll video for you all.

I've also been working on a CLSp, but again, it's not really at a stage that I'd like to show anyone lol.

[hanca]

My coach and I frequently experiment with spins, and I've done a flying forward camel. The way we do, and this was just kind of experimenting, was to go into it much like a flying sit, but in mid air, I open up and throw my left arm/shoulder back and leg back to hit the camel. I have to say, experimenting with the timing produced some spectacular but harmless falls. I haven't worked on them in ages, but if I can get them to look even somewhat respectable, I'll video for you all.

I've also been working on a CLSp, but again, it's not really at a stage that I'd like to show anyone lol.

It doesn't have to be perfect! I am just curious HOW to do it because my imagination is not letting me picture it in my head. :giveup:

[daisies]

Rachel, your original layout was fine, as is your new one. "Different nature" means different codes, even though it's 6.0. Good luck!

[doubletoe]

Rachel, your original layout was fine, as is your new one. "Different nature" means different codes, even though it's 6.0. Good luck!

Yes, Daisies judges and competes under both IJS and 6.0 and she is absolutely right.

I have done both a CoSp and FCoSp in my program for the past several years and always had both spins count, under both 6.0 and IJS.
CoSp = Combination spin with change of position but no change of foot.
FCoSp = Combination spin with flying entry and change of position but no change of foot.

I think the reason your coach got confused is because flying combination spins aren't listed on the scale of values (because they have the same value as the equivalent spin without a flying entrance). However, starting any spin from a flying entrance adds an "F" to the code for that spin, which differentiates it from the same spin without a flying entrance, under both IJS and 6.0.

Incidentally, a sit/back sit would be a CSSp (change foot sitspin), which is different from a CCoSp (combination spin with change of foot and change of position), so you could also do both a sit/back sit and a camel-back sit (even without the flying entrance) if you wanted to.

[kayskate]

Forward flying camel:

I used to do back camel w jumped transition to forward camel. Klimkin had this in his programs several yrs ago. My former coach and I used to experiment w a FO3 entrance w a jump over to a forward camel. These jumped spins are not easy and feel awkward at least to me.

One of the Russian male Oly champs (can't recall which) did a death drop type entrance but opened to a forward sit in the air and landed in a forward sit. As another poster mentioned, it would be possible to open to a forward camel in the air too. I have personally never tried this variation.

Kay