3 turn technique

[katz in boots]

I learned my 3 turns in the 1980s when figures were king, so I learned Forward 3 turns: first rotate my arms & upper body, then the down/up/down of the skating knee, and release of the hips was what initiated the rotation for the turn.

Fast forward to 2009 and it's not done like that. Upper body & arms don't move at all, especially on BO3s. My BI3s are pretty bad, but because my upper body is already turned outside the circle, they don't feel as bad as BO3s where I am facing into the circle.

I asked coach what initiates the rotation, and she said body lean into the circle and the down/up/down/ motion. But on a BO edge, I could go down/up/down without rotating, so there has to be something else initiating the turn.

I don't have a problem when doing loops from this entry (as far as I know), so not sure what's different there.

It's probably more a psychological thing, but can anyone suggest a way of thinking about this to help me turn?

[antmanb]

I learned my 3 turns in the 1980s when figures were king, so I learned Forward 3 turns: first rotate my arms & upper body, then the down/up/down of the skating knee, and release of the hips was what initiated the rotation for the turn.

Fast forward to 2009 and it's not done like that. Upper body & arms don't move at all, especially on BO3s. My BI3s are pretty bad, but because my upper body is already turned outside the circle, they don't feel as bad as BO3s where I am facing into the circle.

I asked coach what initiates the rotation, and she said body lean into the circle and the down/up/down/ motion. But on a BO edge, I could go down/up/down without rotating, so there has to be something else initiating the turn.

I don't have a problem when doing loops from this entry (as far as I know), so not sure what's different there.

It's probably more a psychological thing, but can anyone suggest a way of thinking about this to help me turn?

I was really surprised to read the bit in bold. I can't imagine doing three turns without moving the arms. Maybe it's just because my coach is a figures era coach who really loved figures but on both inside and outside three turns, if you go into them doing cross overs your arms are in the completely opposite position required to to do the turn.

Take a RBO three turn for example. My coach would have me do anti clockwise cross overs on a circle, when you pick up the left leg and glide on the RBO edge my arms are facing into the circle and i'm looking where i'm going into the circle. If i'm going to turn the three then my arms, shoulders, upper body and head (but not hips and free foot) rotate out of the circle, I sit back on the blade and when i'm ready to turn lift the free hip and straighten the knee to turn, re-bend the skating knee on the exit of the turn and keep my arms checked where they were. For me it's all about moving everything into place before the turn in order to have everything ready for the turn.

Ant

[Kat12]

I learned them without moving upper body--all motion is with the hips/below the waist--but then, I learned them about three weeks ago, so obviously yep, 2009 version. :)

Maybe if you think "shake your BOOOO-TAY"? LOL. Really, sort of think like a belly dancer in a way--belly dancing involves isolations a LOT--you might be moving your hips, but the rest of your body isn't supposed to move. Or perhaps an Irish dancer: below the waist you're busy, above the waist you're boring. :) So think of your hips twisting. At home, maybe practice twisting your hips while keeping your upper body as still was possible.

When I was learning 3-turns, I started while on the wall so I could hang on. Hands went on the wall for balance as I glided, then a 3-turn...and my hands didn't leave their position on the wall. That might help you too, to remember that the upper body doesn't change.

I'm going to have to look this up now, and see what your "old-school" technique of 3-turns looks like...

[hanca]

I learned my 3 turns in the 1980s when figures were king, so I learned Forward 3 turns: first rotate my arms & upper body, then the down/up/down of the skating knee, and release of the hips was what initiated the rotation for the turn.

Fast forward to 2009 and it's not done like that. Upper body & arms don't move at all, especially on BO3s. My BI3s are pretty bad, but because my upper body is already turned outside the circle, they don't feel as bad as BO3s where I am facing into the circle.

I asked coach what initiates the rotation, and she said body lean into the circle and the down/up/down/ motion. But on a BO edge, I could go down/up/down without rotating, so there has to be something else initiating the turn.

I don't have a problem when doing loops from this entry (as far as I know), so not sure what's different there.

It's probably more a psychological thing, but can anyone suggest a way of thinking about this to help me turn?

I think what you are describing are two different stages of learning. When I started learning three turns, to be able to do it at all, I was also taught with prerotating the body and the whole thing you described from 1980s (and this was three years ago, not in 1980s). But then you learn it and keep doing it, then you start doing three turns in speed, then you pass several field moves tests and then suddenly you find out that actually you are not supposed to pre-rotate the body, because you can do it without it and it looks better without it, and in the higher tests you are expected not to prerotate body. But the stage with prerotation was important because at least it helped enough to get you do it at all.

I would compare it to when you are learning to ride a bycicle. You first may start with an extra set of wheels so that you don't fall, and when you are comfortable, you take the extra wheels off.

As for your question about what does the rotation, for me it is the knee action and the pressure of the toe/sweetspot of the blade. The more you practice, the less you may feel that there is any rotation at all. It sort of turns itself without you wasting too much energy on the rotation.

[doubletoe]

I agree with the responses above. When doing either one back outside 3-turn or a BO-FI double 3, I start with my face and chest facing into the circle, then gradually scissor my arms and turn my head so that by the time I reach the top of the lobe and it's time to turn, I am facing outside of the circle and looking over my shoulder in the direction of travel.

If I am doing consecutive back power 3's (BO3, mohawk, BO3, mohawk around the end of the the rink as in the Intermediate MIF), then I prerotate the head and shoulders on the first one, but not on the subsequent ones.

[hanca]

Yes, doubletoe, now you mentioned the back three turns, I still don't feel quite comfortable with them and therefore still prerotate my body a lot. However, I noticed that back outside right three turn I don't need to do it so much any more, because it is my strongest back three turn. I also noticed that much better skaters than I am don't need to do such prerotation, they just do back three turns without.

[Isk8NYC]

Beginners usually learn with a strongly prerotated upper body followed by the "roll up and turn." I've been to several coaches' conferences where that's still the norm today.

Once the skater has mastered the first one-foot three turn, then I teach (as do other coaches) the check/rotate/check arm and shoulder movements.


In Figures, the shoulder rotation was done in a "toy soldier" fashion, which many coaches use today for the MITF testing. (YMMV) You begin with a counter-rotated check, switch by passing the arms close to the body, then check and turn. The shoulders are still checking in the same fashion, it's just the arm movement that's different from the beginner 3-turn.

In Freestyle, that would be very rigid-looking, so the more fluent arm movements for checks, some even creatively emphasizing the music, are used. That's when you'll see the "rotate around your body to check."

On jump entries, I usually have my skaters cross-check and hold the shoulders/arms there since the entry position check is the same.
It stops the overrotation of the three-turn before the jump.

For example: CCW Toe Loop - the shoulders/arms are cross-checked at the beginning of the three turn, with left shoulder/arm in front throughout the turn. The skater just has to control the RFI edge, toe in with left rake, pull and jump since the upper body is already checked properly for entry. If they don't pull in the arms while jumping, they're already checked for the landing, lol. (Rarely happens though)

[CoachPA]

I think what you are describing are two different stages of learning. When I started learning three turns, to be able to do it at all, I was also taught with prerotating the body and the whole thing you described from 1980s (and this was three years ago, not in 1980s). But then you learn it and keep doing it, then you start doing three turns in speed, then you pass several field moves tests and then suddenly you find out that actually you are not supposed to pre-rotate the body, because you can do it without it and it looks better without it, and in the higher tests you are expected not to prerotate body. But the stage with prerotation was important because at least it helped enough to get you do it at all.

I agree with your logic here. Even though I did quite a bit of figures work when I was younger, I generally will not teach pre-rotation on the BO3s, even to my beginner skaters (Pre-Juvenile level), because of your reasoning (appearance, higher level tests, etc.). I'd rather them work on doing a BO3 without the pre-rotation and focus on using a soft knee action, feeling where they are on their blade, and so on from the beginning rather than spend time down the road re-teaching the rotation of the turn. In fact, I often find that it's not so much an issue with a skater's arm positions and it is with being on the incorrect part of the blade.

Of course, there are some times, such as if I have a skater who is absolutely struggling with the turn, when I will have them do a little pre-rotation work on the three. Each skater's different and not every technique works for everyone, so I suggest giving both ways a try and seeing what works better for you.

[Isk8NYC]

But on a BO edge, I could go down/up/down without rotating, so there has to be something else initiating the turn.

I don't have a problem when doing loops from this entry (as far as I know), so not sure what's different there.

I'm not sure which element you're talking about:

The loop turn (figure) is done on the middle-to-back of the blade.
The loop jump is done by rolling up to the front of the blade.
If you're trying to turn the BO3 on the front of your blade, it's a lost cause. A BO3 turns on the heel of your skate; not all the way, just behind the instep. If you turn it on the front, you get "stuck" right after the turn.

It can also be that you're dropping the free hip/leg. That'll pull your turn right off the edge and kill it.

[CoachPA]

If you're trying to turn the BO3 on the front of your blade, it's a lost cause. A BO3 turns on the heel of your skate; not all the way, just behind the instep. If you turn it on the front, you get "stuck" right after the turn.

Exactly. I tell my students that they need to feel as though they are turning on the heel.

Think of your blade like a speedboat--the front of the boat is slightly higher than the back of the boat, which is in the water. If the front of the boat is at the same height as, or lower in the water, than the back of the boat, the boat will flip, crash, whatever.

Well, the same idea can apply to a BO3 in which the front of the blade needs to be slightly off the ice. This is done by placing your weight slightly toward the back of the blade. Of course, this is a delicate balance. Too much lean backward and you fall backwards; too much lean forward puts you on your toepicks and makes it impossible to complete the BO3.

[katz in boots]

Of course, this is a delicate balance. Too much lean backward and you fall backwards; too much lean forward puts you on your toepicks and makes it impossible to complete the BO3.

Yeah, I have the weight to the back of the blade for the turn. But what makes you actually turn? My current coach wants me to do this without any pre-rotation.

But today, quite unexpectedly, I did do them. I suspect it is a very slight pre-rotation that makes it possible, but I also lifted the free knee/hip slightly.