Question about Jumping pass

[antmanb]

I was just wondering to myself - if a three jump (waltz jump) and half-loop and not listed jumps, then if I did a threejump+half loop+salchow, would it be be considered a solo salchow with transitions into it or would it be one of my combos/sequences and mean I just get the 0.8 x the points for a salchow?

Thanks in advance

Ant

[Petlover]

I don't know for sure, but I have a waltz jump-half loop-flip combination that everyone has always referred to as a combination jump only.

[SkatEn]

Is there a TS on the board?
If I'm not wrong...
threejump+half loop+salchow
Any jump with a small hop or a half loop is a jump sequence, not a combination. You'll see +SEQ and not +COMBO on the detailed classification.

However, I'm not sure of the points given since there isn't a stated value for waltz jump.

But for other jumps, the values are here. http://isu.sportcentric.net/db/files/serve.php?id=934

[NoVa Sk8r]

If this is indeed for an IJS competition, then it's just a solo jump with a difficult entrance. The waltz and half-loop are classified as unlisted jumps. A jump combo or sequence has to link at least 2 listed jumps. The way the jumps are linked determine if it is a combo or sequence.

[doubletoe]

Yep, what Nova said. If you are competing under IJS, a sequence is only a sequence if it starts and ends with a listed jump (and of course there is no turn, crossover or change of edge allowed in-between the jumps). So what you are proposing would be a solo jump out of connecting moves.

If you are submitting a planned element sheet, it should list that jump pass as a solo salchow and that should eliminate any doubt. However, if you are NOT submitting a planned element sheet, there are two scenarios where you could possibly run into trouble:

1) If you are competing at a level where the axel is allowed, the waltz jump could be mistaken for a failed axel attempt, in which case the salchow would be counted as a salchow in sequence with no other jump and only get 80% of its base value (and count against the number of combinations & sequences you are allowed).

2) If you are competing in a lower level competition where some skaters are actually doing waltz jumps as jumps (because they only have one or two listed jumps), they might assume that the waltz jump is meant to be part of the jump pass and you are intending it to be a sequence. This could happen either under 6.0 or under a modified version of IJS where waltz jumps are assigned a value.

[daisies]

1) If you are competing at a level where the axel is allowed, the waltz jump could be mistaken for a failed axel attempt, in which case the salchow would be counted as a salchow in sequence with no other jump and only get 80% of its base value (and count against the number of combinations & sequences you are allowed).
I was going to say this too. In IJS it might be called A+1S+SEQ, and you'd get 80% of the value of the single salchow. You'd be better off doing just a half-loop into the single salchow, then it would just be called 1S and you'd get full credit, and probably some credit in your program components for Transitions.

In 6.0, it's a sequence regardless.

[antmanb]

Thanks for all your responses.

I'd not be competing at a level where axels are allowed so no fear of that and i suspect that it would not be a modified version of the IJS either so the full jumping pass should just be a solo salchow!

Many thanks
Ant

[doubletoe]

Thanks for all your responses.

I'd not be competing at a level where axels are allowed so no fear of that and i suspect that it would not be a modified version of the IJS either so the full jumping pass should just be a solo salchow!

Many thanks
Ant

Ant, pay close attention to what Daisies says above (she is a judge). It's not just under "modified IJS" that the waltz jump might get your jump pass marked as a sequence. Under 6.0--especially at the level where skaters don't have all of their single jumps yet--you really run the danger of having it called as a sequence if you start it with a waltz jump. I agree with Daisies that the safest thing for you to do would be to take out the waltz jump and just do the half loop-salchow.

[RachelSk8er]

Crap, I never thought much about the difference between a combo and a sequence. I'd like to make my current sequence (lutz-half loop-sal) "harder"...a lutz-loop-toe is actually easier for me to do but I guess would be considered harder. Only problem is that until I get my axel consistent enough to put in the program, I'm out of jumps to use, other than a toe loop and a sal. I already use up both my loops (lutz loop and solo loop....the axel will take the place of that solo loop so I'd be free to use it elsewhere). So I kind of need the half loop in the sequence to put me on the wrong foot to do the sal.

My bronze program 2 yrs ago had a half loop-sal landed on the wrong foot-sal as the sequence. Holy moly was that awkward.

[frbskate63]

I was just wondering to myself - if a three jump (waltz jump) and half-loop and not listed jumps, then if I did a threejump+half loop+salchow, would it be be considered a solo salchow with transitions into it or would it be one of my combos/sequences and mean I just get the 0.8 x the points for a salchow?


At the British Adult Championships in February, this sequence was treated as a solo salchow - and if there was then another solo salchow in the programme, the second one got a deduction as a repeated solo jump!

All something to do with having IJS rules (listed jumps, etc) to match ISU adult criteria, but RJS marking.

[antmanb]

Ant, pay close attention to what Daisies says above (she is a judge). It's not just under "modified IJS" that the waltz jump might get your jump pass marked as a sequence. Under 6.0--especially at the level where skaters don't have all of their single jumps yet--you really run the danger of having it called as a sequence if you start it with a waltz jump. I agree with Daisies that the safest thing for you to do would be to take out the waltz jump and just do the half loop-salchow.

Thanks for the warning - I don't think there are any competitions left uing 6.0 that i could enter at this stage so it would be the IJS. But i'll make sure to double check to make sure.

Thanks again
Ant

[antmanb]

At the British Adult Championships in February, this sequence was treated as a solo salchow - and if there was then another solo salchow in the programme, the second one got a deduction as a repeated solo jump!

All something to do with having IJS rules (listed jumps, etc) to match ISU adult criteria, but RJS marking.

Many thanks for that clarification. That sounds like a bit of a mess in terms of trynig to mark it!

Am i right in thinking that the next British will be using IJS marking?

Ant

[SkatEn]

I found something that may be of relevance at USFS about the clarifications from ISU (http://www.usfigureskating.org/New_Judging.asp?id=354).

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/Technical%20Notification_44.pdf

Page 11.

Though, I'm not sure if your competition will adopt that. It's certainly useful though.

[singerskates]

In case you're going to come up to Canada to compete, it's this way.

No matter if it's under or CPC or 6.0 in Canada, the Waltz jump gets credit as a listed jump (in CPC base mark is .3 for a Waltz jump).

So your Waltz + half loop + Salchow is a sequence in Canada no matter if you do it under CPC or 6.0. Under CPC sequences only get 80% or .8 of the two hardest listed jumps.

Your best bet would be to drop the Waltz jump and do Salchow + Loop Combination and then go for the Axel attempt if your in Adult Silver and up. If you're in Adult Bronze in Canada you are only allowed 4 jumping passes, so you won't be running out of jumps to use and the Waltz jump by itself is fine.

[Mrs Redboots]

Thanks for the warning - I don't think there are any competitions left uing 6.0 that i could enter at this stage so it would be the IJS. But i'll make sure to double check to make sure.

Granted Dunkerque, Oberstdorf & the Mountain Cup are IJS, but all the UK competitions are RJS still - Bristol, Sk8Scotland, Bracknell.... I hadn't heard that the BAC were going over to IJS (but I could be wrong, of course).

Having said that, a judge friend tells me that he, for one, has great difficulty in not thinking of IJS requirements when he is judging RJS, so it's well worth putting your programme together as for IJS! It does show, I've noticed!

[antmanb]

Granted Dunkerque, Oberstdorf & the Mountain Cup are IJS, but all the UK competitions are RJS still - Bristol, Sk8Scotland, Bracknell.... I hadn't heard that the BAC were going over to IJS (but I could be wrong, of course).


At the BITA clinic i'm almost certain I heard people saying that "from next year onwards" the BAC would use the IJS. Now i suppose that depends on what is meant by next year and if people were talking about the 09/10 season as next year or if they considered we were already in the 09/10 season and meant the 10/11 season! The general consensus of the group was that having the IJS was a good thing since they thought the marks that were given when it was the RJS were demoralising and all over the place from judge to judge.

I suppose it's too much to ask that NISA have anything on their website about the BAC just yet.

Ant

[fsk8r]

At the BITA clinic i'm almost certain I heard people saying that "from next year onwards" the BAC would use the IJS. Now i suppose that depends on what is meant by next year and if people were talking about the 09/10 season as next year or if they considered we were already in the 09/10 season and meant the 10/11 season! The general consensus of the group was that having the IJS was a good thing since they thought the marks that were given when it was the RJS were demoralising and all over the place from judge to judge.

I suppose it's too much to ask that NISA have anything on their website about the BAC just yet.

Ant

Think I spotted the BAC in the calender and it did say British IJS Adult Championships, so I think that's kinda suggesting they're making the switch.

But I'm not sure how morale boosting it is to get less than 10 points because you're competing in Bronze and one of your best jumps is the waltz and it counts for nothing! I like the sound of SkateCanada giving it a low base value as at least that gives everyone a starting place in competitions.

as for judging being all over the place. I noticed that for synchro the Slough team got 20+ points in Dunkerque (IJS) and then only 9 at the British (also IJS). There's something fishy going on there. I can't believe the program changed that much in a couple of months to lose that many points. But I don't know which one got it right and which got it wrong. I thought IJS was meant to be objective?

[antmanb]

Think I spotted the BAC in the calender and it did say British IJS Adult Championships, so I think that's kinda suggesting they're making the switch.

But I'm not sure how morale boosting it is to get less than 10 points because you're competing in Bronze and one of your best jumps is the waltz and it counts for nothing! I like the sound of SkateCanada giving it a low base value as at least that gives everyone a starting place in competitions.

as for judging being all over the place. I noticed that for synchro the Slough team got 20+ points in Dunkerque (IJS) and then only 9 at the British (also IJS). There's something fishy going on there. I can't believe the program changed that much in a couple of months to lose that many points. But I don't know which one got it right and which got it wrong. I thought IJS was meant to be objective?


On the NISA website it's down just as the "British Adult Championships" http://www.iceskating.org.uk/event/2010/02/26.

I've given NISA a call to ask about any details especially given that looking at the website it seems that the forms for last year all came out in mid August but still so far this year nothing. I've left a voicemail message for someone but i'll post as soon as i know anything more.

Ant

[fsk8r]

On the NISA website it's down just as the "British Adult Championships" http://www.iceskating.org.uk/event/2010/02/26.

I've given NISA a call to ask about any details especially given that looking at the website it seems that the forms for last year all came out in mid August but still so far this year nothing. I've left a voicemail message for someone but i'll post as soon as i know anything more.

Ant

I was certain I'd seen it called IJS last week! And you're right about the forms. Not seen those yet either.

[Mrs Redboots]

I thought IJS was meant to be objective?
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

My husband calls the Programme Component Score the "Political Component Score".

[antmanb]

Well i've spoken to someone at NISA who said that the BAC would be marked using RJS, that there has been discussion about having the IJS in place for the future but she doubted they'd get it ready in time for February.

Apparently the dates in the NISA calendar for it are still provisional as the ice has not been confirmed with Ice Sheffield.

Also there is an adult skating information day looking at the IJS on Saturday 5 Sept at Ice Sheffield after the IJS competition there so I don't know if more will be discussed there about using IJS for the BAC.

Still seems pretty up in the air to be honest and with no real clarity as yet as to teh judging the system that might be used I'm not sure i'm really inclined to compete!

Ant

[fsk8r]

Well i've spoken to someone at NISA who said that the BAC would be marked using RJS, that there has been discussion about having the IJS in place for the future but she doubted they'd get it ready in time for February.

Apparently the dates in the NISA calendar for it are still provisional as the ice has not been confirmed with Ice Sheffield.

Also there is an adult skating information day looking at the IJS on Saturday 5 Sept at Ice Sheffield after the IJS competition there so I don't know if more will be discussed there about using IJS for the BAC.

Still seems pretty up in the air to be honest and with no real clarity as yet as to teh judging the system that might be used I'm not sure i'm really inclined to compete!

Ant

NISA at their absolute finest. Last season they weren't 100% clear that synchro was going to IJS until pretty close to the competition and then claimed that they'd been saying it all season. I wouldn't be surprised if they change their minds again.

And a lot can happen between now and February so you may as well see how things are looking closer to the competition before making calls about whether to compete. I look at it as an empty ice rink with no one to get in the way. Mind Sheffield is a long way to go to find an empty ice rink...

[doubletoe]

as for judging being all over the place. I noticed that for synchro the Slough team got 20+ points in Dunkerque (IJS) and then only 9 at the British (also IJS). There's something fishy going on there. I can't believe the program changed that much in a couple of months to lose that many points. But I don't know which one got it right and which got it wrong. I thought IJS was meant to be objective?

There isn't necessarily any "right" or "wrong", just different. A lot of times, a different "factor" will be used for the Program Component Score (what used to be called the 2nd mark, or "Presentation Score"). If the level of difficulty is low, the technical mark will be very low, and multiplying the PCS scores by a different factor can easily make a difference of 10-15 points in the total score. Additionally, no two performances are the same, so it's possible that they made a mistake or didn't do an element at the British. With points that low, missing one element is all it takes. That's why you always need to look at the actual scoresheets before crying foul.

[fsk8r]

There isn't necessarily any "right" or "wrong", just different. A lot of times, a different "factor" will be used for the Program Component Score (what used to be called the 2nd mark, or "Presentation Score"). If the level of difficulty is low, the technical mark will be very low, and multiplying the PCS scores by a different factor can easily make a difference of 10-15 points in the total score. Additionally, no two performances are the same, so it's possible that they made a mistake or didn't do an element at the British. With points that low, missing one element is all it takes. That's why you always need to look at the actual scoresheets before crying foul.

Unfortunately they never released the score sheets for the British so I've not been able to see the difference.
But I didn't know that there were different factors that scale the PCS mark. So does that mean that the only bit of the mark which should stay the same from competition to competition is the Technical mark (assuming all elements are called and performed the same)?

[RachelSk8er]

So does this all work the same under the 6.0 adult levels? Would a (insert pretty much any jump here)-side hop-axel or a (insert single jump here)-half loop-flip count as a two jump combination since a half loop and side hop aren't real jumps? Or would it be a sequence of 3 jumps and I'm in trouble if I already did a 3 jump combo/sequence in my program? Not that I can do a jump-side hop-axel and half loop-flips are AWKWARD! But wishful thinking...

At Peach I tacked a toe loop onto my lutz-half loop-sal because I was in a good mood and had speed coming out of the sal, and I'm pretty sure I wasn't dinged for it being (possibly) more than 3 jumps.

[doubletoe]

Unfortunately they never released the score sheets for the British so I've not been able to see the difference.
But I didn't know that there were different factors that scale the PCS mark. So does that mean that the only bit of the mark which should stay the same from competition to competition is the Technical mark (assuming all elements are called and performed the same)?

I'm sure they use the same factors for all of the high-profile events such as the ISU Grand Prix and World Championships, but there are definitely some classes of competition where they can use different PCS factors at different competitions. For example, at the 2009 U.S. Adult National Championships they used a factor of 1.2 for the PCS, but at the 2009 ISU international adult competition in Oberstdorf, they used a factor of 1.6, which would make the same PCS marks 33% higher. Additionally, PCS marks are much more subjective and relative than technical marks, so they should only be used to compare different skaters within the same competition, not scores across different competitions (I think of it as the 6.0 section of the scoresheet). Technical scores can be compared across different competitions, but if there are more downgraded jumps and fewer higher level spins and step sequences called in a certain competition, you will have to consider the possibility that the technical panel was just stricter in that competition. Generally, when you get a strict technical panel, they are strict with all of the skaters across the board.

Would a (insert pretty much any jump here)-side hop-axel or a (insert single jump here)-half loop-flip count as a two jump combination since a half loop and side hop aren't real jumps? Or would it be a sequence of 3 jumps and I'm in trouble if I already did a 3 jump combo/sequence in my program? Not that I can do a jump-side hop-axel and half loop-flips are AWKWARD! But wishful thinking...

At Peach I tacked a toe loop onto my lutz-half loop-sal because I was in a good mood and had speed coming out of the sal, and I'm pretty sure I wasn't dinged for it being (possibly) more than 3 jumps.

A "(insert pretty much any jump here)-side hop-axel" and a "(insert single jump here)-half loop-flip" are both perfect examples of a 2-jump sequence, since neither the side toe tap nor the half loop count as jumps. Neither of these sequences would ever be counted as a combination, since the two listed jumps are connected by an unlisted jump or hop. If you add another listed jump at the end, as you did at Peach, it turns it into a 3-jump sequence, which is absolutely fine as long as the other two combination/sequences in your program don't have more than 2 listed jumps.
The good thing about 6.0 is that you can do sequences instead of combinations and get just as much credit for them!

[RachelSk8er]

A "(insert pretty much any jump here)-side hop-axel" and a "(insert single jump here)-half loop-flip" are both perfect examples of a 2-jump sequence, since neither the side toe tap nor the half loop count as jumps. Neither of these sequences would ever be counted as a combination, since the two listed jumps are connected by an unlisted jump or hop. If you add another listed jump at the end, as you did at Peach, it turns it into a 3-jump sequence, which is absolutely fine as long as the other two combination/sequences in your program don't have more than 2 listed jumps.
The good thing about 6.0 is that you can do sequences instead of combinations and get just as much credit for them!

Perfect! Thank you, that makes total sense now :) Just trying to figure out ways to maximize my program, and I'm a much better jumper than spinner (despite my lack of a clean axel), particularly when I do compete against people who are really good with spins because they can bend in all sorts of ways my body just won't go.

[doubletoe]

Perfect! Thank you, that makes total sense now :) Just trying to figure out ways to maximize my program, and I'm a much better jumper than spinner (despite my lack of a clean axel), particularly when I do compete against people who are really good with spins because they can bend in all sorts of ways my body just won't go.

You're welcome! And since sequences are as good as combinations under 6.0, you don't have to do both of your loop jumps as the 2nd or 3rd jump in a combination. If you do a listed jump-half loop-salchow or listed jump-half loop-flip instead of a listed jump-loop, that leaves you free to do a beautiful big solo loop by itself. I miss being able to do that. . .

[RachelSk8er]

You're welcome! And since sequences are as good as combinations under 6.0, you don't have to do both of your loop jumps as the 2nd or 3rd jump in a combination. If you do a listed jump-half loop-salchow or listed jump-half loop-flip instead of a listed jump-loop, that leaves you free to do a beautiful big solo loop by itself. I miss being able to do that. . .

That's exactly what I was trying to avoid getting rid of. I like leaving one of my solo jumps as a loop all by its lonesome because you can play around with turns before the entry. You lose that if you use them both up as the 2nd jump in a combo (I never really do them as the fist jump). Although half looping into solo jumps or 2 jump combos also opens up that option...

[doubletoe]

That's exactly what I was trying to avoid getting rid of. I like leaving one of my solo jumps as a loop all by its lonesome because you can play around with turns before the entry. You lose that if you use them both up as the 2nd jump in a combo (I never really do them as the fist jump). Although half looping into solo jumps or 2 jump combos also opens up that option...

Yep! I always loved doing a big RFO Ina Bauer, changing edge to RFI and going right up into a loop!

[RachelSk8er]

Yep! I always loved doing a big RFO Ina Bauer, changing edge to RFI and going right up into a loop!

My new mission is to get a wally down. I can wally the "wrong" way off of my L foot and rotate clockwise, that puts me on a LBO edge and I can go into a lutz. We have a few kids at my rink who do this, it looks so cool. Except of course they do a double lutz...

I think I'm also going to go back to working on a LFO-LBO rocker into my lutz. I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone do this, but I don't see why it can't be done if you can do a huge rocker with a lot of speed.

I started playing w/these last year but at the time, my lutz itself wasn't strong enough and I had some bad technique habits to break (still sort of do but not nearly as bad), so in my program I just spiraled into one and did footwork before the takeoff edge of the other.

[TreSk8sAZ]

I think I'm also going to go back to working on a LFO-LBO rocker into my lutz. I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone do this, but I don't see why it can't be done if you can do a huge rocker with a lot of speed.

.

That's how I've almost always done my lutz, until my most recent program we changed the entry. But that's the easiest way for me.

[doubletoe]

My new mission is to get a wally down. I can wally the "wrong" way off of my L foot and rotate clockwise, that puts me on a LBO edge and I can go into a lutz. We have a few kids at my rink who do this, it looks so cool. Except of course they do a double lutz...

I think I'm also going to go back to working on a LFO-LBO rocker into my lutz. I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone do this, but I don't see why it can't be done if you can do a huge rocker with a lot of speed.

I started playing w/these last year but at the time, my lutz itself wasn't strong enough and I had some bad technique habits to break (still sort of do but not nearly as bad), so in my program I just spiraled into one and did footwork before the takeoff edge of the other.

A CW walley would be amazing! I haven't tried LFO rocker to lutz but it seems like it would be a fun entrance so I wonder why we never see it? Have you tried a LFI bracket lutz entry? I've got one in my new program and it's working OK, but I still need to get more outflow on the landing.

[ibreakhearts66]

My new mission is to get a wally down. I can wally the "wrong" way off of my L foot and rotate clockwise, that puts me on a LBO edge and I can go into a lutz. We have a few kids at my rink who do this, it looks so cool. Except of course they do a double lutz...

I think I'm also going to go back to working on a LFO-LBO rocker into my lutz. I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone do this, but I don't see why it can't be done if you can do a huge rocker with a lot of speed.

I started playing w/these last year but at the time, my lutz itself wasn't strong enough and I had some bad technique habits to break (still sort of do but not nearly as bad), so in my program I just spiraled into one and did footwork before the takeoff edge of the other.

Hehe...first time I tried a walley, I jumped CW of my RBI edge and couldn't figure out what the the girl (who was doing them properly) was able to land on a RBO edge while I was on a RBI. I was doing a one-foot salchow in the opposite direction lol.

I love seeing walley sequences into lutzes or just traveling down the ice. I can do a CCW walley, but have never tried to even work on CW. I'm thinking I'll do that today :)

I THOUGHT Elene Gedevanishvili did the rocker entry, but she does the LFI bracket entry. I'm almost certain I've seen a high level skater do it and it looks great, but I cannot remember who. A few people at my rink do their lutzes that way sometimes. I can do it fine for a single, but have never gotten the rocker entry down for a double, even when I was landing them consistently otherwise.

A CW walley would be amazing! I haven't tried LFO rocker to lutz but it seems like it would be a fun entrance so I wonder why we never see it? Have you tried a LFI bracket lutz entry? I've got one in my new program and it's working OK, but I still need to get more outflow on the landing.

I think the reason we don't see them that often (but I HAVE seen it on a high level skater, I just can't remember who and it WILL drive me insane) is that it takes a slightly different type of control. When I do rockers, I either do swing rockers or "figure" rockers with the free leg scissoring. Either way, I find that I have to add a separate, specific moment of check before I can reach back and prepare to really jump. The timing and body placement of that check is what makes it difficult for me to do a double off of it.

[RachelSk8er]

Have you tried a LFI bracket lutz entry? I've got one in my new program and it's working OK, but I still need to get more outflow on the landing.

I've never tried this, never even thought of it. Porbably because I hate brackets and doing them with speed scares the living crap out of me. I never had to do the brackets on intermediate MIF so I never learned to do them properly (when I took intermediate, it was back when bracket-3-bracket was still on it and the current pattern didn't exist. Bracket-3-bracket doesn't teach brackets properly). I do actually have a bracket in my free program this year though, so I'm trying to turn over a new leaf. I should ask my coach to work with me on it though, it's probably not as horrid as it sounds, and probably easier than the rocker. I just hear bracket and cringe.

We have a set of twins at my rink who wally before their double lutzes. It's kind of cool, they jump and spin in opposite directions so in both cases, they are doing the wally the "wrong" way for them. All their spins and other jumps have neat entries too. I'd love to see them do a similar pairs or show routine together because they could do some really cool shadowing.

[NoVa Sk8r]

A CW walley would be amazing! I haven't tried LFO rocker to lutz but it seems like it would be a fun entrance so I wonder why we never see it? Have you tried a LFI bracket lutz entry? I've got one in my new program and it's working OK, but I still need to get more outflow on the landing.Or LFO counter into lutz! 8-)
I am desperately trying to get this as an entrance, but I am still too scared to do the forward counter with enough speed required to do a nice lutz.

[doubletoe]

Or LFO counter into lutz! 8-)
I am desperately trying to get this as an entrance, but I am still too scared to do the forward counter with enough speed required to do a nice lutz.

I'm with you on that one. Can't imagine doing a counter at speed! Fortunately for me, the LFI bracket was my best bracket on the Intermediate MIF so it's not quite as scary to do it from that entrance.

[RachelSk8er]

I'm with you on that one. Can't imagine doing a counter at speed! Fortunately for me, the LFI bracket was my best bracket on the Intermediate MIF so it's not quite as scary to do it from that entrance.

A counter would be cool since a lutz is really just a counter in the air. I think it's easier, at least for me, to barrel down the ice doing a rocker though (especially if you ice dance and jump R handed, it's the same rocker you'd have to master to pass the Rocker Foxtrot...it's a pretty big rocker and at a decent speed in that dance, particularly on the solo).

[doubletoe]

A counter would be cool since a lutz is really just a counter in the air. I think it's easier, at least for me, to barrel down the ice doing a rocker though (especially if you ice dance and jump R handed, it's the same rocker you'd have to master to pass the Rocker Foxtrot...it's a pretty big rocker and at a decent speed in that dance, particularly on the solo).

I agree! I love that LFO rocker so much I have two of them as transitions in my program, LOL! I do one of them as rocker-RBI3-chocktaw (like on the Novice MIF test).