IJS Question: Basic spin position

[ibreakhearts66]

I just looked at TN 49 (http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/Technical_Notification_49.pdf), and have a quick question. Regarding a flying spin in one position, the clarification is as follows

C. Flying spin in one position
If a basic position is not attained, the skater shall receive no higher than a Level 1,
and variations shall not be awarded.

When they say a basic position, do they mean a plain sit or camel spin? Or, would a difficult variation IN the basic position (as in, for a sit spin at least, the butt is still lower than the knee) count as the basic position? Is this TN a matter of basic position vs variation or basic position vs intermediate position (like a sit spin that doesn't sit low enough).

Ah my brain is hurting trying to explain my question. I guess I'll just ask the question as it specifically pertains to me.

With this new clarification, can I do a flying sit and come down straight into a broken leg (butt lower than knee), or do I actually need to hit a plain sit spin before attempting any variations?

I'm sure this question would be better answered by a TS, but there aren't any at my rink and honestly, I don't know who in my area IS a TS.

[phoenix]

I'm pretty sure you have to hit the basic position first before switching to a variation. They talked about this stuff in a seminar at a competition a few weeks ago.

[CoachPA]

Yeah, I would agree that the basic position must first be attained, as if the skater goes right into the variation, he/she has not achieved the basic position. For instance, you can do a flying sit into a broken leg spin, but you may not be able to go straight into the broken leg spin even if your butt is lower than your skating knee.

Just my interpretation; however, I'd rely more on someone who can verify this before making any changes to a program or spin.

[doubletoe]

Yes, you can land and go immediately into a broken leg sit position without doing the regular sit position first. The definition of "basic position" in IJS terminology only means that the position meets the criteria to count as either (1) an upright spin, (2) a sitspin or (3) a camel spin. The only real requirement for a sitspin position is that the skating thigh be parallel to the ice, with the bottom of your butt no higher than the top of your knee. If you are fulfilling that criterion in the broken sit position, then you are executing a sitspin, which is one of the three "basic positions." If you had to first do the classic sit position with the free leg extended in front, nobody would ever get credit for going into a pancake sit position where they cross the free foot over the knee and then lower into the sit position. People would also get no credit for going directly into a tuck sit position from a camel (where the free leg stays in back as they go into the sit position). But of course they do get credit for these.

[ibreakhearts66]

OK, I think I'm going to try to find a TS to ask, because both doubletoe's answer and CoachPA/Pheonix's answer seem like reasonable answers. Because it's a new TN and refers specifically to the juvenile level, I'm inclined to think they want to see a plain sit or camel spin first, but I definitely want to make sure since flying sit into broken leg is much easier for me.

[sk8er1964]

OK, I think I'm going to try to find a TS to ask, because both doubletoe's answer and CoachPA/Pheonix's answer seem like reasonable answers. Because it's a new TN and refers specifically to the juvenile level, I'm inclined to think they want to see a plain sit or camel spin first, but I definitely want to make sure since flying sit into broken leg is much easier for me.

IIRC, William Brewster (senior men) did a flying broken leg several times. I would assume he got higher levels for them. You could check his video and protocols on Ice Network (assuming you have access).

[phoenix]

IIRC, William Brewster (senior men) did a flying broken leg several times. I would assume he got higher levels for them. You could check his video and protocols on Ice Network (assuming you have access).

The only caution here is, they keep changing/tweaking the rules every year. So just because something was fine one year, doesn't necessarily mean it's fine now. I'd contact USFS to see if they can direct you to a TS to get the question answered for sure.

[doubletoe]

The only caution here is, they keep changing/tweaking the rules every year. So just because something was fine one year, doesn't necessarily mean it's fine now. I'd contact USFS to see if they can direct you to a TS to get the question answered for sure.

Fortunately, the 2009-2010 season rule changes and clarifications are all out now (they are available on the USFSA website), and there hasn't been any change that would affect this particular spin, so it might be worthwhile to take a look at last year's Juvenile competition from Junior Nationals on IceNetwork (assuming it's still up) and see what flying spins the girls did and how they were scored. I'd be surprised if there wasn't someone who immediately went into a cannonball variation on a flying sit.

I think one reason these rules can be so confusing is the use of the terms "position" and "variation." In IJS-speak, "position" refers to any sit, upright or camel (or, if done as a single position spin, a layback), including all of its possible variations. "Variation" is the term used to refer to any of the acceptable variations of position within that basic position, i.e., a broken leg sit, a cannonball sit, a pancake sit, a tuck sit, etc. Whenever a variation is not allowed, that will be specified in the rules, using the term "variation" (for example, the 6-second hold feature on a spiral specifically says that no change in position or variation is allowed during that 6 second hold). So unless the rule specifically disallows variations or changes of variation, any sitspin variation you want to do should be acceptable. They just won't give you any credit for the variation if you don't achieve a low enough sit position.

[TreSk8sAZ]

We just held our annual competition and I saw quite a few girls at all different levels doing exactly what you are proposing: flying entry into a broken leg sit. I did not hear of anyone that was not given credit for the spin because they did not first go into an actual sit position.