Heel height

[AgnesNitt]

Coach has convinced me to get custom boots made. "Dahlink, get the customes, zee boots vill last zee rest ov your life."

So I know exactly what I want except for one thing: heel height.
I'd like the heels to be low, 3/4 inch maybe. I have 'foot issues' with heels.

Is there any reason to stay with the normal 1 1/2?

[doubletoe]

Well, my understanding is that the heel height on skating boots is specifically designed to keep you balanced on the ball of your foot, so if you go with a lower heel, that will probably change where your weight is on the blade. It's a good question for your pro, or even the boot maker.

BTW, no boot should last you the rest of your life. If it's stiff enough to last you the rest of your life, it's going to be too stiff for you to ever bend your ankles! The only difference between custom boots and stock boots is that you can have them sized specifically for feet that are oddly shaped or difficult to fit, and you can choose some features that may not come on the stock boot.

[dbny]

BTW, no boot should last you the rest of your life.

Except that you have to factor in the level of the skater and how often she/he skates. For example, a low level skater who doesn't jump and skates once a week or less often, will have those boots a very, very long time. I know someone like that who is in the same custom boots for over 10 years and they still look like new.

[aussieskater]

I think that AgnesNitt does mostly traditional figures?

[AgnesNitt]

I think that AgnesNitt does mostly traditional figures?

That is correct, I am a non-jumping, non-spinning skater. I do not exceed 180 degrees of turn and at least one foot is on the ice at all times.

[NCSkater02]

I've had my Jackson Competitors for six years, and they still look pretty new except for the drag marks from lunges. For the majority of that time, I was skating 3x/week for at least an hour. (Life caught up with me in the form of job/school/sick boyfriend for the last year and a half). I'm thinking my next pair will be semi-customs just to get a schoosh wider in the ball/narrower in the heel. I am planning on sticking with Jacksons.

[dbny]

That is correct, I am a non-jumping, non-spinning skater. I do not exceed 180 degrees of turn and at least one foot is on the ice at all times.

I think your coach is right. You won't need another pair of boots. If you dance, that could make a difference, as the degree of knee bend required could affect the life of the boots.

[saras]

That is correct, I am a non-jumping, non-spinning skater. I do not exceed 180 degrees of turn and at least one foot is on the ice at all times.

no twizzles?

:lol:

[AgnesNitt]

no twizzles?

:lol:

Oh, honey, there are times I get dizzy doing 3 turns around the circle. :)

[doubletoe]

That is correct, I am a non-jumping, non-spinning skater. I do not exceed 180 degrees of turn and at least one foot is on the ice at all times.

Ah, got it! :)

[Query]

I don't know exactly how many hours I've put into my 8 or so year old Klingbeil Dance boots - maybe 2000 - 3000 hours.

I've mostly ice danced, and have largely stayed at the level of 1/2 rotation jumps. I lean fairly deep, and go pretty fast, but not as deep or fast as the really good ice dancers, so there just hasn't been much to break things down.

And that's in spite of the fact that until the last few years they were grossly misfit (which normally breaks boots down quickly), until I figured out ways of dealing with that.

The problem is, they never broke in on their own. They remained very stiff, though the inner foam eventually collapsed once (and was replaced by Klingbeil).

Eventually, one or two years ago, I used very active techniques (repeated heat molding, stretching, flexing the boot while still hot, using oil, water and alcohol, etc.) to break them in and soften the leather.

I have since undone some of the very small amount of breakdown crease formation that occurred from the misfit, by rewarming and reshaping the boots to get rid of the crease, and filling the extra space near the crease that started to form.

Originally they were extremely inflexible sideways. Like many ice dancers, I find it convenient to flex my ankle sideways to help get a deeper edge.

In addition, they are very, very heavy. Heavy enough that they probably tire me out a bit, because every time I pick the boots up off the ice it takes energy, and there is a fair amount of inertial "throw weight" resisting all motion.

It's nice that they last long, but I would prefer something lighter and softer. But since they haven't broken down (and if they ever do, I could get Klingbeil to replace the foam cheaply and keep on going), it is hard to justify buying something new.

I think most people should avoid getting something so high level the skates never break down. If you are taking private lessons at, $30-100 / week, it might make sense to spend a reasonable fraction of that on boots that don't last forever, because it will improve your performance and make skating more fun.

Then do what you need to, to make them fit perfectly, and the break down will still be fairly slow.

Just my opinion. You should do what you want.

----

On heel height. This is partly a matter of personal balance, flexibility and range of motionin various directions.

Try temporally adding padding inside your boot under or over the insole. If raising your toe, say 1/8" (no matter how comfortable that makes the fit) still lets go into all the desired skating positions without destroying your balance or over-stretching your muscles when you place both boots on the ice in all skating positions, then you can safely take 1/8" off the heel height. If the fit of your current boots is too tight for that, put the blades in plastic guards, and stick on tape to genuinely raise the toe to a desired test thickness.

Remember that the skating stride is way different than a walking stride. When you walk or run, your heel probably lands far in advance of your center of gravity, rolls through (probably with a bit of supination and pronation along the way), and takes off on the toe, and only a little sideways pushing. Maybe you even swing your hips around a bit so the feet stay almost in line with each other. Many people, like me, are comfortable walking or running with no elevated heel (or barefoot).

An elevated heel walking and running makes it hard reach forward with a heel strike, and tends to exaggerate the supination, pronation and sideways push phase, and for many people helps create (I don't fully know why) excess arch collapse and excess pronation or supination.

But when you skate stroke, your feet rarely stray far from being under your center of gravity - but they do push a lot sideways. In figure skating, you are not supposed to let your toepick touch when you stroke - which for most people requires the elevated heel, do to flexibility limits in places like the achiles tendon.

In addition the stiff boot and insole mostly immobilizes the foot, which tends to reduce excess pronation, supination and arch collapse (unless the boot was misfit - it basically forces your foot into whatever shape the inside of the boot takes). So this reduces the potential problems that come from the elevated heel that crazy toe pick and the rules against using it most of the time makes necessary.

On the other hand, if the heel is too high, it is hard to point, because of flexibility limits in the opposite direction, and you may have trouble coming off the heel. In extreme cases, it may cause you to overbalance and have to fight falling forward. (Up to that limit, it has the opposite effect, causing you to place more weight on the back, and balancing you back.)

So you need to experiment to figure out where your personal balance and flexibility limits lie.

So get out the plastic guards and the tape, and play.

Just my opinion there too. Again, do what you want.

[AgnesNitt]

Thanks for all the advice. I have a very common foot problem called Morton's foot, and I need a Morton's extension in the boot. This rotates my foot to the outside edge (so to speak) by raising the inside edge of the foot up about half an inch. That's too much for stock boots. I can't get all the angle I need to make my ankles straight and correct the pronation. Hence custom boots.

I thought that if I lowered the heel height, I'd get more power on the strike. I understand the concern about going up to the curve of the rocker and I think Query's idea of customizing in the boot by adding pads on the inside is good. Since I'm an engineer I'm interested in fooling around with different blades (second hand cheap on ebay or someone getting new) to see if I can find some I like (cause I don't like the ones I have now) My boots are my science project.

I should do a video.

[dbny]

Since I'm an engineer I'm interested in fooling around with different blades (second hand cheap on ebay or someone getting new) to see if I can find some I like (cause I don't like the ones I have now) My boots are my science project.


If you can use 9.5, I have a decent pair of Coronation Comets in that size that I got for a song and would gladly pass along at the same price plus actual shipping.

[Query]

Since you are a real engineer, ignore everything I said.

You can figure it out better than me.

[sk8lady]

Thanks for all the advice. I have a very common foot problem called Morton's foot, and I need a Morton's extension in the boot. This rotates my foot to the outside edge (so to speak) by raising the inside edge of the foot up about half an inch. That's too much for stock boots. I can't get all the angle I need to make my ankles straight and correct the pronation. Hence custom boots.



Do you have Morton's neuroma or is this something different?Is the extension something you can purchase or does it need to be built into the boot? I have Morton's neuroma so I got custom boots from Harlick because of the neuroma, and they gave me a giant painful callus on the ball of my left foot (and didn't help any with the neuroma). I eventually got an orthotic made so I could spin, even after Scott Cooke at Cooke's put a shim under the base of the blade on the right side of my foot. The neuroma still bothers me, but at least I can spin till my foot goes numb!! My coach told me to stop limping around and get new boots already. I think I'm going to look for the boot with the lowest possible heel height!!

[AgnesNitt]

Do you have Morton's neuroma or is this something different?Is the extension something you can purchase or does it need to be built into the boot? I have Morton's neuroma so I got custom boots from Harlick because of the neuroma, and they gave me a giant painful callus on the ball of my left foot (and didn't help any with the neuroma). I eventually got an orthotic made so I could spin, even after Scott Cooke at Cooke's put a shim under the base of the blade on the right side of my foot. The neuroma still bothers me, but at least I can spin till my foot goes numb!! My coach told me to stop limping around and get new boots already. I think I'm going to look for the boot with the lowest possible heel height!!

Nope, don't have Morton's neuroma. I've read about it, and it must be very painful.
Morton's foot is when the first metatarsal--the long bone supporting the big toe--is too short. When I stand with my feet flat my ankles fall inwards because the base of the big toe is not far enough out. Twenty five years ago I was lucky to see an orthopedic surgeon specializing in feet who was the foot ortho to the LA RAMs. That man knew feet. He diagnosed it and got me a custom othotic and told me 'lower heels help'.

Anyway, for Morton's foot, all you need is a wedge underneath the ball of your foot at the big toe (that's the mortons extension). I had a custom orthotic--I don't trust the ones on the internet. My experience with the custom one , was that it lifted my foot so much, I could no longer wear heels, slip ons, etc. I had to wear <shudder> lace ups....But it worked and I was pain free. I no longer wear orthotics every day, I just wear flats.

When I skate, I want my blades positioned so that they're directly underneath my ankles, and the ankles are directly underneath my knees. Can't do that without a wedge in the boot. I tried putting shims between the blade and the boot, but that wasn't enough, then I moved the blades in. I could skate better on them, but they're as far in as you can go without the base plate sticking out and I still don't think it's enough. I felt that unless I can skate on a neutral or nearly neutral ankle, I'd never make any progress.

My hockey playing podiatrist build an orthotic in my old boot, so I'm confident I can get my new ones where I want them.

(Anyway, if you're interested, here's a nice article on Morton's foot and how to make a home made shoe insert from a dance website (http://www.thebodyseries.com/newsletters/2004/04/04_30_2004.html))

Since you are a real engineer, ignore everything I said.

You can figure it out better than me.

Mitch I could not do it without you. I'm all half baked ideas and no direction. You're all experience and clarity of expression.

[sk8lady]

Kind of makes you wonder who Morton was, doesn't it?

[AgnesNitt]

Kind of makes you wonder who Morton was, doesn't it?

Wikipedia knows all:
"The name (Morton's Foot) derives from American orthopaedic surgeon Dudley Joy Morton (1884–1960), who originally described it as part of Morton's triad (a.k.a Morton's syndrome or Morton's foot syndrome): a congenital short first metatarsal bone, a hypermobile first metatarsal segment, and calluses under the second and third metatarsals."