Spin Technique Questions - Sit & change Foot

[katz in boots]

Different coaches seem to have very different ideas about correct technique.
I'm on my 4th coach (in almost 30 years) and accept the differences, but I'm curious what your coaches tell you to do in these spins:

When you go into a sit spin, do you go into it like a scratch but then drop after centring the spin? Or do you enter low like a lunge almost, then bob up slightly when bringing the free leg around and then settling down low?

Change foot spins. (My 2nd coach - a reasonably good skater though rather inexperienced as a coach - got us to simply put down one foot & lift the other, no push at all :lol:!)

Does your coach get you to make the skating foot describe a wider circle before placing the new foot down onto the spot where the first foot was.

Or to step to the new side to push into the backspin, so the tracings are not on the same spot?

[fsk8r]

Different coaches seem to have very different ideas about correct technique.
I'm on my 4th coach (in almost 30 years) and accept the differences, but I'm curious what your coaches tell you to do in these spins:

When you go into a sit spin, do you go into it like a scratch but then drop after centring the spin? Or do you enter low like a lunge almost, then bob up slightly when bringing the free leg around and then settling down low?

Change foot spins. (My 2nd coach - a reasonably good skater though rather inexperienced as a coach - got us to simply put down one foot & lift the other, no push at all :lol:!)

Does your coach get you to make the skating foot describe a wider circle before placing the new foot down onto the spot where the first foot was.

Or to step to the new side to push into the backspin, so the tracings are not on the same spot?

Not related to getting into the sit spin, but there seems to be some debate at my rink about what the correct free leg position in the sit spin is. Some teach it with the leg straight (like a shoot the duck / teapot) and others coach it with the free leg bent and wrapped around. The kids seem to be at the bent extreme and the struggling adults at the straight extreme. One coach came out with the statement that the knee should be "lightly flexed" which was a get out for saying that she doesn't want perfectly straight but doesn't want really wrapped either.
In terms of getting into the sit spin, I go in relatively low (deep knee bend) and then try and sink lower. Don't think I really bob up bringing the leg around (but I might just not be aware enough to notice).

For change foot, I generally step down and am meant to push into it. I've never seen anyone do the larger circle version.

[mintypoppet]

Sit spin
I've had three coaches:
- the first was English and wanted me to go into it low.
- the second was Russian, and wanted me to go into it like a scratch and then sit.
- my current coach is English and wants me to go into it low - she feels that it takes too long to get into the sit position from a scratch.

All of them want the free leg to be as straight as possible.

Change foot
So far, I've just been told to put the other foot down and not to push into it. However, my change foot is fairly fragile, so perhaps my coach is saving that advice for a later date!

[Isk8NYC]

Sit spin
I've had three coaches:
- the first was English and wanted me to go into it low.
- the second was Russian, and wanted me to go into it like a scratch and then sit.
- my current coach is English and wants me to go into it low - she feels that it takes too long to get into the sit position from a scratch.

All of them want the free leg to be as straight as possible.

Interesting - my old coach was German, and she wanted the entry to be high then drop. I still do it that way sometimes because it just feels so cool to have that control and power. All the American coaches I know look for the low entrance.


Change foot
So far, I've just been told to put the other foot down and not to push into it. However, my change foot is fairly fragile, so perhaps my coach is saving that advice for a later date!
I was taught to bring in the free foot and pigeon-toe push onto the new foot using the toepick, almost like a pivot start.

[CoachPA]

When you go into a sit spin, do you go into it like a scratch but then drop after centring the spin? Or do you enter low like a lunge almost, then bob up slightly when bringing the free leg around and then settling down low?

I teach a lower entrance that goes even lower for the spin after the free leg comes around with the heel leading in.

Change foot spins...Does your coach get you to make the skating foot describe a wider circle before placing the new foot down onto the spot where the first foot was.

Or to step to the new side to push into the backspin, so the tracings are not on the same spot?

I teach the same way Isk8NYC mentioned: I have my skaters place their inside big toe (toepick) in the ice slightly pigeon-toed and pivot from there while pushing so that the tracings are not directly over one another.

Not related to getting into the sit spin, but there seems to be some debate at my rink about what the correct free leg position in the sit spin is. Some teach it with the leg straight (like a shoot the duck / teapot) and others coach it with the free leg bent and wrapped around. The kids seem to be at the bent extreme and the struggling adults at the straight extreme.

The free leg position I teach is extended in front with the toe slightly opened to the side (slightly so as not to cause a drop in the free hip). I really do not like the look of the wrapped knee and do not see any real benefit to this on a basic sit spin. Variations of the sit spin (such as a pancake spin, etc.)--yes, but on a basic sit spin, I prefer as do the judges I've spoken with, an extended, stretched free leg with the toe slightly opened.

[Isk8NYC]

I teach a lower entrance that goes even lower for the spin after the free leg comes around with the heel leading in.
<snip>
The free leg position I teach is extended in front with the toe slightly opened to the side (slightly so as not to cause a drop in the free hip). I really do not like the look of the wrapped knee and do not see any real benefit to this on a basic sit spin. Variations of the sit spin (such as a pancake spin, etc.)--yes, but on a basic sit spin, I prefer as do the judges I've spoken with, an extended, stretched free leg with the toe slightly opened.
I think that the turn out of the free foot is more important than it seems. When you turn your foot (and knee) to point the toe AWAY from the spinning leg, it uses the inner thigh (adductor) muscles in addition to quadriceps in the front. I find the turnout makes it easier to lock the free leg into a closed position in front, giving the skater the ability to stretch forward more easily. Just mho from teaching sit spins, which are my all-time favorite spins.

That turnout also keeps the skater from spinning with the blade heel pointed straight down towards the ice. Asthetics aside, that's dangerous - you can spike your heel and hurt yourself. (I liken it to sticking a rod into a spinning wheel.) Plus, the skater is limited in how low they can go before whacking the heel into the ice.

As for bent or straight free knee, I think the straighter knee just looks nicer and is more difficult to achieve. The bent free knee ends up looking wrapped and the spin appears to be slower. (Could be an optical illusion, not sure)

<snip>I have my skaters place their inside big toe (toepick) in the ice slightly pigeon-toed and pivot from there while pushing so that the tracings are not directly over one another.
Just food for thought: a certain amount of "traveling" is allowed under the various rules. I tell my students it's (at max) two blade lengths. The ISI allows three blade lengths PER FOOT. If you're doing a change-foot, you can "move over" to get on the other foot.

The pigeon-toed pivot has to be done with the feet pretty close together, so there's very little travel once you get the hang of it. You do have to rise up a notch to get the pick in the ice, but it's easy enough to sit back down for the second half.
[/quote]

[RachelSk8er]

I teach a lower entrance that goes even lower for the spin after the free leg comes around with the heel leading in.



I teach the same way Isk8NYC mentioned: I have my skaters place their inside big toe (toepick) in the ice slightly pigeon-toed and pivot from there while pushing so that the tracings are not directly over one another.



The free leg position I teach is extended in front with the toe slightly opened to the side (slightly so as not to cause a drop in the free hip). I really do not like the look of the wrapped knee and do not see any real benefit to this on a basic sit spin. Variations of the sit spin (such as a pancake spin, etc.)--yes, but on a basic sit spin, I prefer as do the judges I've spoken with, an extended, stretched free leg with the toe slightly opened.

I've learned everything the same way from my current coach. Going into the sit, the free leg still swings up high and snaps around like for a scratch spin, but it happens as I'm going down (almost like I got punched in the stomach right as I stepped into the spin).

Don't quite remember how my first coach taught them, I was so young and you don't think about these things much, you just do what your coach says, then I quit freestyle for so long. I imagine I learned a sit spin from a low entrance because when I've had to do them for synchro, that's what I did. And I've never wrapped my leg.

I don't think the leg wrap thing is a good idea on a basic sit spin. I would think it would lead to a tendency to pull the free hip forward too much and pop it up, sending the spin traveling. Straight out with a turnout helps keep your hips level and pull them down/back more easily. Plus I just think it looks sloppy and awkward.

[Morgail]

Change foot - I remember when I first learned this (a zillion years ago), my coach taught me just to set the foot down and pick up the other foot. This resulted in an inside-edge backspin. My current coach teaches the pigeon-toed change, and it works like magic.

Sit spin - I used to go into it low, but I've changed to the scratch and then lower technique. I like it better because it gives me a second to center the spin before dropping. It does require more control, and I don't think I could've done it this way a couple years ago. As for free leg position, my coach wants the "slightly flexed" position.

[kayskate]

Sit spin:
Deep knee entrance. One full rev to get into position only. No upright position at all. Leg straight and toe turned out. My first coach did not count it if I did not sit all the way down. So I sat all the way down.

Change:
Pushed change. Push = about one full circle or less.

Kay

[doubletoe]

The way I was taught on both the sitspin and change foot are the same as Coach PA describes.

[katz in boots]

Thanks everyone, sounds like it does very much depend on the coach.

I have just thought of another question on change foot sit spins: does your coach get you to stay down for the change of foot, or come up to change then drop back down?

[RachelSk8er]

Thanks everyone, sounds like it does very much depend on the coach.

I have just thought of another question on change foot sit spins: does your coach get you to stay down for the change of foot, or come up to change then drop back down?

Well...on any spin (other than a sit spin where you stay down obviously) you need to start the spin with the knee bent in order to get into it and center it, and then gradually rise up. So to go from one foot to the other in a combination spin, you'd need to re-bend the knee entering the second spin and rise up again.

[Isk8NYC]

I have just thought of another question on change foot sit spins: does your coach get you to stay down for the change of foot, or come up to change then drop back down?If you're just switching feet without the pigeon-toed pivot push, you can stay at the same sitting level, more or less.

To catch the toepick for the pivot, it helps to come up on the skating knee an inch or so, then sit back down. Think about letting the new spinning knee "catch up" to the new free leg.