POSTURE, in Upperbody control

[sk8joyful]

Hi,
Ok first-off, hopefully no-one will laugh at something so basic, but this "POSTURE, in Upperbody control", comes up lots in Skating-discussions, as it did again in the thread on "spins"

When first I started skating, i had significant health-challenges stacked against me as far as iceskating, but as I have persisted, my passion for skating has grown by leaps, and I have realized progress, where similar others just finally gave up altogether. - Yet others, especially skaters with sufficient $$-resources, have far FAR surpassed me, into Fun-programs, & (competitions - not interesting me).

Basically from coach, & many Skating-friends feedback: "you have Good balance!, amazingly :) so (as posture cont. way off :frus:), and
your knees are well-bent :) as you skate... just straightenUP your posture, & you're good to go... "

Skating-friends verbalized, & demonstrated the 'mental-tricks' re Correct skating-posture which I can return-demonstrate, for a few strokes that is, before it falls apart again, Grrr!
Has anyone else been stuck struggling over poor posture?, and if so,
what STEPS helped you change the most, so you were able to progress to other Fun-stuff on the ice :D

Thanks again! for your positive, constructive suggestions... :bow:
.

[phoenix]

My coach makes me do a lot of exercises with my arms either behind my back or held overhead (think ballet 5th postition). This forces you to stand up straight and keep your spine vertical. It's not as scary w/ arms overhead, I'd recommend that first.

Aside from that, it really does take years of very dedicated practice to develop really good posture. You have to constantly work on it.

[sk8joyful]

My coach makes me do
a lot of exercises with my arms either behind my back or
held overhead (think ballet 5th postition).
This forces you to stand up straight and keep your spine vertical.
It's not as scary w/ arms overhead, I'd recommend that first.

Thanks for your input!
So you suggest I skate... with my arms held overhead?, & later behind my back? -

How does this affect your overall Balance? :)


it really does take years of very dedicated practice to develop really good posture. You have to constantly work on it.

Also is the fact that just more recently, I am becoming more aware of what I feel, and where, as I skate. -
The coach, perplexed, used to say: "How can you skate :?:, when you don't know what you are feeling?" - Well, my preferred rep-system is VISUAL -> another reason why I resort to looking down on the ice, instead of UP :)

Too, I wonder how Individual this "posture"-skill really is,
as most of my Skating-friends during our practices together, aren't nearly as challenged by posture, as little me. <-- Maybe were I to stop thinking of myself as a skater of little skills, I might can skate, longer... with my head held high...? ;)

What do you all think?
.

[fsk8r]

You sound just like me with the poor posture. I can correct it slowly, on say one exercise but then forget to apply it in program or a different exercise. My coaches are generally fairly exasperated.
I've been threatened with holding an elastic band (like the champion cords) to try and get me to think about arms and body position, but I've so far refused (I am an adult!) and there's the old favourite of a hockey stick down the back (I'm sure that comes under child cruelty these days!).
Not sure if these would work for me.
I've just worked with a new coach on my program and she's put a few high arms in to help me look up at them, and stand up straight. This is her theory anyway, we'll see if it works. My regular coach likes putting hands on hips with thumbs backwards as it's pretty difficult to slouch then (I have managed it though!).
What is most weird about my posture is that one coach commented that I don't have a problem off the ice! I used to, so I think some of the constant nagging from skating has worn off and moved into my regular life.
But I'd love to hear people's suggestions on how to correct this. Habits are really hard to break but there must be a way to correct these things.

[sk8joyful]

Thanks for your "hands-on-hips" :) suggestion, too!

You sound just like me with the poor posture. I can correct it slowly,
on say one exercise, but then forget to apply it in program or a different exercise.

Well, you're much better than me, as at this point I'm good for maybe one length of the rink,
before it is back to failure' :cry:


I've been threatened, with holding an elastic band (like the champion cords)

No clue, what you meant


there's the old favourite of a hockey stick down the back
(I'm sure that comes under child cruelty these days!).
Not sure if these would work for me.

ooops, Not the best of ideas, as one could DIE 8O falling that way. - Lord, help me! I WANT to LIVE... ;)



My regular coach likes putting hands on hips with thumbs backwards
as it's pretty difficult to slouch then (I have managed it though!).

Yeah, that was actually mentioned a while back during practice,
by one of my best Skating-friends. Her coach suggested this. -

And me? I said "I'll hafta try this too, lol" - but I need constant reminders!! :oops:

[fsk8r]

Thanks for your "hands-on-hips" :) suggestion, too!


Well, you're much better than me, as at this point I'm good for maybe one length of the rink,
before it is back to failure' :cry:


No clue, what you meant


ooops, Not the best of ideas, as one could DIE 8O falling that way. - Lord, help me! I WANT to LIVE... ;)



Yeah, that was actually mentioned a while back during practice,
by one of my best Skating-friends. Her coach suggested this. -

And me? I said "I'll hafta try this too, lol" - but I need constant reminders!! :oops:

The elastic cord idea is so that you hold it taught with your arms out straight. It helps keeps your arms in the correct position to stop them flapping around. I've seem some kids holding it in front of them (for arm flapping purposes) and others with it going behind their bodies to help with posture.

I've discovered that horseriders sometimes use a "clavical brace" to help pull their shoulders back and train them into that position so they can get the nice straight back when doing dressage / show jumping. I've got one and tried it, and other than being a bit uncomfortable for extended wear it does help. But I normally forget to wear it.

I'm not sure there is an easy fix, but I'm figuring that constant nagging and reminders are the only way to get it trained in to the body to happen naturally.

Do you also have problems with posture off the ice? I'm trying to be more focussed about posture in general now (I've had really bad whiplash so it's kinda helped my recovery), but it normally goes out the window as soon as I start skating. But I can sit up straight at my desk now!

[Clarice]

I'm an adult skater, too, and I think Champion cords are a great tool. They really help you feel where your arms and legs are, and therefore improve your positioning. For basic stroking, I like to use 2, connecting each foot to the corresponding hand. Lately, I've been using one to help with my camel spin, where it connects the foot to the opposite hand. I certainly don't think that they're just for kids. For overall posture, though, I don't think anything beats ballet training.

[sk8joyful]

Then, from my earlier thread on "Encouraging beginners" (re FXO's), this:
Originally Posted by doubletoe:
"Look at the front skater (a speed skater) in this picture doing a Crossover.
Ignore the upper body position, which is not right for figure skating, but look at the legs."
whereupon I responded:
"Yes, I had a copy of this picture already; & this is a hoot!
as I'm about 1/2-way down there :oops:, like a SPEED-skater normally <-- I know
what I'm supposed to be doing posture-wise;
but not until I get comfy, do I actually manage to STRAIGHTEN-UP especially by LOOKing-UP!!! LOL"

This Posture-issue keeps biting me :roll:

The elastic cord idea is so that you hold it taught, with your arms out straight.
It helps keeps your arms in the correct position, to stop them flapping around.

Well, my arms don't "flap around"; so I'm good there! :)


I've discovered that horseriders sometimes use a "clavical brace" to help pull their shoulders back and train them into that position so they can get the nice straight back when doing dressage / show jumping. I've got one and tried it, and other than being a bit uncomfortable for extended wear it does help.

Funny you should mention that; as I started wearing stronger support-bras, thinking this would help.
Now,
it's been also recommended I try a "corset" :lol: do you think that would work?

(maybe in more ways than one (lol), as normally I weigh less than 110, & my waist is around 23 inches. -
Ahem,
now I'm dragging 9 extra-lbs. around my waist, which would leave asap, when I'm good... with walking... more.)

Prolly, what would help the most, is my being able to actually practice, 2-3x weekly... (with NO breaks);
but alas,
I'm forced to skip, often 2 months at a whack :cry: terribly horrible!)

THANKS! for your kind attention, again!
.

[Kat12]

I'm sure my posture sucks on-ice, and I'm sure it's because my posture sucks OFF-ice. I've always been a sloucher. Sitting up straight is actually uncomfortable for me (probably because it's not what I'm used to doing). And I can't even manage to train myself into good posture in the rest of my life...doing it on-ice is going to be a challenge!

[fsk8r]

Funny you should mention that; as I started wearing stronger support-bras, thinking this would help.
Now,
it's been also recommended I try a "corset" :lol: do you think that would work?

(maybe in more ways than one (lol), as normally I weigh less than 110, & my waist is around 23 inches. -
Ahem,
now I'm dragging 9 extra-lbs. around my waist, which would leave asap, when I'm good... with walking... more.)

Prolly, what would help the most, is my being able to actually practice, 2-3x weekly... (with NO breaks);
but alas,
I'm forced to skip, often 2 months at a whack :cry: terribly horrible!)

THANKS! for your kind attention, again!
.

I'm not sure a corset would necessarily help with the posture issue. It would hold everything in and possibly even stop you slouching your shoulders (not sure quite how these things work!), but I'd imagine that you'd still be able to break from the waist and lean forward.
I've had a coach working with me on the whole looking up thing recently. The idea being not to watch the ice at my feet, or even just in front of me (I'm always scanning for "little people" to trip over) but rather to be aiming to look up towards roof level (sort of where most rinks seem to hide clocks!). That seems to work when I remember to do it, and then you put people on the ice and I forget!

[Isk8NYC]

To improve posture overall, you have to practice it all the time.

That means sitting up straight in your desk chair, walking erect, etc.

Strengthening your core muscles and losing excess weight helps tremendously.

I use Champion cords to correct posture issues in skaters when I coach.
Run it from one wrist to the other, threading it across the skater's back, or even better, under their sweater.
I use the cords in front to stop the arm flapping on stroking and the "diving" into spirals.

One of the key things to think about is body alignment. In most skating, your chin should be over your bent skating knee, which should be bent over your skating toe. A lot of people stick out their chin on everything and that throws off balance and posture.

A few drills that help with specific skating skills:

. Back crossovers - look "down your (inside) arm" to keep your shoulders aligned properly.
. Back crossovers - keep the "inside" arm tucked behind your back. It pushes the shoulder into the right position.
. Forward crossovers - keep the waist twisted so the bellybutton is facing the center of the circle. I have the skaters do one-foot pumps in this position.
. Spins - many skaters twist while spinning. To correct this, have the CCW skater start the spin, then place their right hand on their stomach and their left hand behind. That position is almost impossible to do without squaring shoulders over hips.
. Spins - I just found another in-spin position that helps remove the twist - have the skater put their hands on their hips and keep their elbows out to the side. As a bonus, this forces two-foot spins to keep the pidgeon-toe position that's needed.

Not sure if this was mentioned, but doing School Figures is a great way to build proper posture.

[Skate@Delaware]

My coach has used Champion Cords with me and altho I balked at them (was afraid of getting all tangled up) I really liked how you get proprioceptive feedback from them---you actually feel more tension in your parts from using them from the extra resistance the cords provide.

Other tools used:
-holding gloves in my hand instead of wearing them. This gave me a visual clue of where my hands were.
-having my coach yell out tidbits "stop hunching" or "push your shoulders down" and the infamous one "point your toes"

On my own, I have held a piece of string in my hands while doing back crossovers, to remind myself to keep them UP and OUT

I do exercises off-ice to strengthen the upper back, subscapularis muscle and shoulders.

[Petlover]

Posture has been a huge work in progress over the past 12 years of my skating life. It improves very slowly, but it does improve.

Does your coach ever use a video camera so that you can see yourself? My coach brings hers in every couple of months so that she can have me see exactly what I am doing. Also, done on a regular basis, this does show what has improved and what still needs work.

I do agree that working on posture on the ice has significantly improved my posture off the ice.

Also, be aware of where your eyes are. I used to look down a lot and that threw my posture off big time. My coach wants me to look forward, and that also helps.

Good luck - posture always seems to be a work in progress and consistency is a great goal to reach for.

[rsk8d]

What will help you with postural control without having to think about it is strengthening the muscles that hold your shoulder blades back toward yor spine: the middle and lower traps, and rhomboids, as well as the serratus anterior muscle, which stabilizes the shoulder blades against the rib cage. These muscles will bring the shoulders back be stabilizing the shoulder blades. Once the brain has developed msucle memory, you won't have to think as much about keeping your posture correct: it will happen more naturally.

Many people become upper trap dominant, meaning that the muscle above the shoulder blades that attaches to your neck is overactive. This will cause the shoulder blades to tilt forward and cause you to hunch forward. This muscle should never be strengthened if you want good posture (unless your a swimmer...)

[fsk8r]

What will help you with postural control without having to think about it is strengthening the muscles that hold your shoulder blades back toward yor spine: the middle and lower traps, and rhomboids, as well as the serratus anterior muscle, which stabilizes the shoulder blades against the rib cage. These muscles will bring the shoulders back be stabilizing the shoulder blades. Once the brain has developed msucle memory, you won't have to think as much about keeping your posture correct: it will happen more naturally.

Many people become upper trap dominant, meaning that the muscle above the shoulder blades that attaches to your neck is overactive. This will cause the shoulder blades to tilt forward and cause you to hunch forward. This muscle should never be strengthened if you want good posture (unless your a swimmer...)

These are all the muscles which are giving me problems because of my whiplash. Do you know of any good exercises which help strengthen them? My physio has suggested ones where I pull back the shoulder blades and hold them in that position, but I find I can only do a couple of seconds in that position before the pain kicks in. There is admittedly more going on with my back than just this (rotational problems which are also pulling my shoulders out of alignment) but some simple exercises to work on the postural side of this, might help counteract some of the other ones.
I'm currently collecting exercises to help the back as I'm hoping that one of them might be the miracle cure to the problems!

[Mrs Redboots]

I struggle with posture, as age has rounded my shoulders and humped me over. But it can be improved, with exercise (weights help, I believe, or resistance training) and perseverance.

Someone give me some perseverance????

[luckykid]

So does that mean the upper body posture has more to do with the strength than anything else? I know my coach told me I didn't have strength.
And I don't have problem with posture off ice too. I'm doing ballet and I don't have problem with posture during ballet.
I tend to lean forward. If I'm to arch my back, I can't bend my knees. If I bend my knees, I'll lean forward. I have a problem with putting my weight back.

[rsk8d]

So does that mean the upper body posture has more to do with the strength than anything else? I know my coach told me I didn't have strength.
And I don't have problem with posture off ice too. I'm doing ballet and I don't have problem with posture during ballet.
I tend to lean forward. If I'm to arch my back, I can't bend my knees. If I bend my knees, I'll lean forward. I have a problem with putting my weight back.


Posture is affected by several things:
1) The genetic development of your spine. Some people are pre-disposed to having a more rounded thoracic (mid) spine, which causes the back to round.

2) Strength of the muscles I have mentioned before (rhomboids, middle and lower trap, serratus anterior)

3) Joint mobility of your spine and shoulder blades (the actual available movement in each joint)

4) Flexibility of the chest muscles (pecs)

5) Overdevelopment of the upper trap muscles. Many patients I see who have a desk job get very tight and forward because of overworked upper traps.

In regards to your specific problem, you may have tight hip flexors, which may be causing the issues with leaning forward/backward.