Difference between beginner and advanced crossovers?

[Kat12]

I've read about these in a couple books but I'm still not sure what the difference is (in one book it referred to "advanced crossovers" and in the other "progressive runs" but I assume they're the same thing, as far as I can tell?).

I've tried to search the web and Youtube videos to try to figure out the difference but I can't find anything with the two relating to each other, and in some sources I can't even see where it mentions two different levels.

As far as I can tell, in advanced crossovers you don't lift the outside foot to place it on the inside but sort of slide it forward to the front and inside? I haven't been able to achieve this yet so I want to check and make sure I've got the right idea before I teach myself to do the wrong thing!

[sk8ryellow]

Basically advanced crossovers are progressives and beginner crossovers are normal crossovers. Don't worry you'll learn when you get to the point that your coach wants you to do advanced crossovers. My coach did not tell me they were progressives I just learned that on my own.

[Clarice]

Progressives are what we use in ice dance. It's hard to explain the difference in words - it would make more sense if somebody could demonstrate for you. In dance, your feet always come together underneath you before you take the next step. So, you're right - the outside foot doesn't lift up and over the inside foot. The feel come together, and then the inside foot pushes under the outside foot. I think of them as "push unders", rather than "cross overs".

[dbny]

There is another type of advanced crossover, which looks almost like running on ice. These are quick short accelerating strokes. The power circles in Intermediate MIF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRK6GfEgAfY) and again in Junior MIF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n-P2Dt2QnE) are a good example of both types of advanced crossovers (although the slower ones are really not progressives, but progressive style crossovers).

[katz in boots]

I had to learn crossovers the 'advanced' way, right from the beginning, stepping over wasn't allowed. I was shocked on my return to skating after
20 years to find kids in skate school being taught to step over. These same kids then had to re-learn the correct way a few levels up and for some it wasn't an easy transition. We are now trying to phase out the step overs.

I agree with Clarice, crossovers and progressives or runs are different. I'm no expert, so feel free to correct my interpretation here.
My understanding of progressives (and their faster counterparts, runs), is that these are actually edges with a push under when transferring to the new skating foot. So a progressive might be eg LFO RFI LFO RFI .

Counter-clockwise crossovers are those edges too, however there are two pushes. One push would be from the right foot onto the LFO, then the right foot is placed on the ice and slides in front of the left foot and takes the weight while the left foot then pushes behind the right. That's my understanding anyway.

[Kat12]

Hrm. Might have to wait until I'm actually taking lessons to figure these out, but maybe if I search Youtube under "progressives" I can figure it out; the video was helpful. I can sort of picture them, but not quite. So if I'm going CCW, it looks like I'd still push off from the R foot and it would still lift off the ice during the LFO part, and then it comes back down still OUTSIDE of the L foot (next to it, or ahead of it?), then I slide it over to inside of the L foot and sort of push off the L foot as it's going under? Do I slide R foot to be next to L, or just a bit in front and it ends up next to it because of the forward travel? Does the L foot get lifted then still while I'm gliding on the RFI? I think this looks almost like what I'm naturally starting to do as my crossovers get better, so maybe it won't be as hard to figure out as I think. I've just got to get that outside foot contacting the ice as it goes around to the front.

Does this mean crossovers = always bad, or are they still used sometimes?

[Clarice]

Don't think about the outside foot going around to the front. It stays on its own track. The outside foot comes up next to the inside foot (not ahead of it) and then the inside foot pushes under. It only looks like the outside foot is going ahead - it really sets down right where it is, next to the other foot.

[doubletoe]

The most important thing to remember when doing advanced crossovers is to keep your KNEES DEEPLY BENT THE WHOLE TIME. It's easy to unconsciously stand up a little as you are crossing over (or under, as the case may be), but that brings your feet closer together, so you risk the "clink of death". The scar on my chin reminds me of this every day. :roll:

[dbny]

The most important thing to remember when doing advanced crossovers is to keep your KNEES DEEPLY BENT THE WHOLE TIME. It's easy to unconsciously stand up a little as you are crossing over (or under, as the case may be), but that brings your feet closer together, so you risk the "clink of death". The scar on my chin reminds me of this every day. :roll:

ITA. Very, very important to keep those knees deeply bent. I think you have the top honors, doubletoe, as I don't know anyone else with a badge of honor from the click of death. I also don't know anyone who is proficient at crossovers who has not experienced the click of death!

[londonicechamp]

Hi

Well I am no expert on advanced crossovers.

What my coach has recently got me to do is after my crossover, hold my right leg to the side, and then bring the left leg to a one foot glide position. She is still trying to get me out of the toepick.

Maybe you should ask your coach the question, the next time you have lesson with him or her.

Hope this helps.

londonicechamp

[Kat12]

^ I don't have a coach; I'm waiting for fall when Learn-To-Skate classes start back up. Although there's a session starting in a couple weeks that I might try for, I see...the rare summer session! In the meantime, I don't see a point in paying to learn the basics if I can do it on my own. There are some things, though, that I can tell are going to have to wait for a class and these might be one of them, just so someone can see if I'm doing it correctly and I don't end up teaching myself bad habits...

[kayskate]

^ There are some things, though, that I can tell are going to have to wait for a class and these might be one of them, just so someone can see if I'm doing it correctly and I don't end up teaching myself bad habits...

You will most likely not learn advanced moves of any sort in LTS unless your rink offers group FS. I am a LTS instructor. We teach the basic skills. Most students are beginners and are not ready for adv xovers. They have trouble w beginning xovers. I recommend learning all of your skills from an instructor to avoid bad habits. I spend months breaking students of toe pushing and trying to get them to bend their knees and position their arms/shoulders properly. If you can take classes or privates, please take them. You will save yourself time, $, and frustration in the future.

Kay

[Kat12]

Yeah, I'm just trying to learn what I can on my own. That way when I take classes I won't have to spend too much time in Basic 1. Although my guess is that no matter where I get placed I'll probably be one of, if not THE, only adult...oh well.

[dbny]

Yeah, I'm just trying to learn what I can on my own. That way when I take classes I won't have to spend too much time in Basic 1. Although my guess is that no matter where I get placed I'll probably be one of, if not THE, only adult...oh well.

What Kayskate said! Skaters who learn on their own inevitably pick up bad habits that are extremely difficult to break. Basically, you end up training yourself into doing things wrong and you feel comfortable doing them that way. The best thing you can do for your figure skating if you really can't afford a coach right now, is to put on a pair of roller blades and just stroke, stroke, stroke. I can always tell who has done roller blading because they don't toe push, and who wears heelies, because they can't glide with feet together (speaking of bad habits).

[NickiT]

This is quite interesting! I've been freeskating for quite a while, but hadn't realised to what extent I did beginner crossovers. I've now taken up ice dance and have mastered the progressives (advanced crossovers) but find it hard to incorporate them into my programme. It was only after having a couple of lessons with Skotnicky in Oberstdorf that it was evident I really would benefit from switching to more advanced crossovers for all of my skating. I've certainly learned that it's all in the knee bend. They're easy enough to do as long as I bend my knees deeply!

Nicki

[Kat12]

No, no, no...I'm new and not very good, but I don't toe push or any of that crap, oh my.

[dbny]

No, no, no...I'm new and not very good, but I don't toe push or any of that crap, oh my.

I'm glad you've avoided that particular pitfall, as it's a b!tch to break, but there are plenty of other bad habits that are easy to pick up when you learn without proper instruction. One of the simplest things a coach does is give you feedback, since you can't see yourself, and almost no one has perfect proprioception. If you can get a friend to video you, that would be a big help, in the absence of instruction.

[doubletoe]

ITA. Very, very important to keep those knees deeply bent. I think you have the top honors, doubletoe, as I don't know anyone else with a badge of honor from the click of death. I also don't know anyone who is proficient at crossovers who has not experienced the click of death!

LOL! Actually, I had just done two back clockwise crossovers and was stepping forward from a RBI edge to LFO edge. I unconsciously rose up a little too much and passed my left foot too close to my right foot as I brought it forward, and my left toepick caught the heel of my right blade. My face and torso were already turned to the left to face forward, so my left foot stayed right where it was and the first thing to hit the ice was my chin. The friend who saw me fall and then drove me to the hospital is still traumatized from seeing my chin bone, LOL! FWIW, the click of death on back crossovers is much less dangerous when you're still facing backwards and not trying to step forwards at the same time. You just slide on the ice for awhile and try to steer yourself so you don't hit anything/anyone!

[dbny]

LOL! Actually, I had just done two back clockwise crossovers and was stepping forward from a RBI edge to LFO edge. I unconsciously rose up a little too much and passed my left foot too close to my right foot as I brought it forward, and my left toepick caught the heel of my right blade. My face and torso were already turned to the left to face forward, so my left foot stayed right where it was and the first thing to hit the ice was my chin. The friend who saw me fall and then drove me to the hospital is still traumatized from seeing my chin bone, LOL!

8O:cry: As soon as I read "stepping forward from a RBI edge to LFO", I knew what was coming (except for the bare bone...barf). Such a simple move, yet fraught with potential for disaster. I once bailed in the middle of that little step forward (back when I was scared of Prelim power threes) and did a crazy windmilling fall. Now, cats would have no problem with it, being able to twist their bodies in halves in mid-air.