Is skatingjumpsecrets.com correct?

[Query]

A coach at http://skatingjumpsecrets.com
(Use http://skatingjumpsecrets.com/blog/?page_id=2 to bypass the survey) makes some fairly strong claims:

He says that while the rule book implies otherwise, as jumps are actually judged (by TV level USFSA and ISU competition standards):

1. Edge jumps can take off from toe picks.

2. The first half revolution of a rotational jump may be on the ice.

3. The last quarter revolution may also be on the ice.

E.g., all single jumps other than axel only require 1/4 rotation in the air.

(Though he implies some jumps, like axels may be marked down this way.)

Can anyone (preferably a judge or judge in training) state whether his claims are correct? It would certainly make jumping easier for low level skaters like me.

If these things are correct, do they only apply to competitions, and not to tests?

[Clarice]

All jumps take off from the toe pick, in the sense that the toe pick is the last thing to leave the ice (and the first thing to return). On a takeoff, you push off by rolling through the rocker of your blade and pointing your toe. Your toe remains pointed in the air, and the pick is the first thing to return to the ice. Then you roll back down onto your landing edge.

According to my coach, who is a tech specialist, the part about rotation on the ice is also generally true, because of how the edge traces a curve. As you take off, you've already started the rotation because you're on an edge. Obviously, one can overexaggerate that. Look at the drawings of the various jumps in the rule book and it makes a little more sense.

This isn't really new stuff - it's how the technique works.

[liz_on_ice]

All jumps take off from the toe pick, in the sense that the toe pick is the last thing to leave the ice (and the first thing to return). On a takeoff, you push off by rolling through the rocker of your blade and pointing your toe. Your toe remains pointed in the air, and the pick is the first thing to return to the ice. Then you roll back down onto your landing edge.

According to my coach, who is a tech specialist, the part about rotation on the ice is also generally true, because of how the edge traces a curve. As you take off, you've already started the rotation because you're on an edge. Obviously, one can overexaggerate that. Look at the drawings of the various jumps in the rule book and it makes a little more sense.

This isn't really new stuff - it's how the technique works.

I suspect it is more true of multi-revolution jumps. Since more speed of rotation is required, more of the rotation is going to occur before the last part of the blade gets in the air. On a single you should be airborne before you get that far around.

[fsk8r]

I suspect it is more true of multi-revolution jumps. Since more speed of rotation is required, more of the rotation is going to occur before the last part of the blade gets in the air. On a single you should be airborne before you get that far around.

No, the technique part of turning on the ground before jumping is the same for multi-revolution or single jumps. The blade traces an edge starting the turn to forwards before you even jump.
I was clearly taught this when learning the loop jump and helped a friend who was struggling with it and this technique held true. He was jumping too early and couldn't rotate, no one had told him to hang on until the blade starts to turn. There's a timing to how much turn, but the blade must still turn.
Jumping up and creating rotation in the air is pretty difficult, starting the rotation as you leave the ice (but therefore when still on it) is easier. Try jumping up in the air and then turning or using your arms to start you turning as you jump. You don't need to be on the ice to do this. As Scottie would say, you canne change the laws of physics.

[Query]

Caution: Since looking at the website and filling out the survey with my correct email address, they have been sending me one email a day.

That's spam.

So if you look at it, give a fake email address.

[Query]

I have simplified what Coach Trevor (the site originator) said - in fairness one should listen to the videos on the site.

To the best of my knowledge the USFSA Basic Skills Instructor's Manual is the only official USFSA publication which includes definitions of most jumps and other common skating moves (other than ice dance moves, which are also in the rulebook), and it only goes through the level of single axels. I posted something on the site blog mentioning that.

(USFSA only lets USFSA Basic Skills (http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=47) program managers buy (http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/BS-orderform.pdf) that manual, not other skaters or coaches. I think those definitions, as well as definitions of the moves it doesn't define, should be easily available to all skaters and coaches, so they know what standards to obey. If this site and the opinions of above posters is correct, and even those standards aren't followed by judges, that is even worse. Keeping standards secret only hurts skaters, and violates the USFSA charter purpose, which is to do everything it can to make sure U.S. figure skaters win international competitions. But that was the subject of another rant - some other people felt written definitions confuse athletes.)

The manual includes these phrases in the glossary definition of the loop jump:

take off from a backward outside edge

rotating one full turn in the air

Elsewhere in that manual there is another definition tha includes

rotating one full turn in the air

Land on the take-off leg in a balanced and extended position.

If I read that right (I'm not a lawyer), a toe take-off or landing are illegal. The bit about rotating one full turn in the air is even more clear.

So, if the modifications discussed on the site are not new and are understood by most coaches and skaters, is there any place the USFSA (or ISU) publishes such information? Perhaps in the advice to judges?

[Clarice]

If I read that right (I'm not a lawyer), a toe take-off or landing are illegal. The bit about rotating one full turn in the air is even more clear.


I can't speak well to the rotation part, because I'm not experienced enough. But it sounds like you're misunderstanding the part about how one uses the toe pick on takeoffs and landings. When it says you take off from a back outside edge, it means that's the edge you're on when you initiate the jump. To actually take off, you must roll through the blade and the toe pick is the last thing to leave the ice. If you didn't do that, you'd be trying to jump flat-footed, and that just isn't effective, even in shoes. If you try to land flat-footed, the landing will be heavy, loud, and unattractive. Look at the way ballet dancers jump - they roll through the foot so that the pointed toe is the last thing to leave the floor and the first thing to return. That is what we are trying to approximate on the ice. They don't have to spell out every single little detail of the motion in the rule book. That's what coaches are for. If a coach doesn't understand that this is the way the blade works on a jump takeoff/landing, then they aren't a very good coach, imo. The judges all understand that this is what we do. We would be marked down for flat-footed takeoffs and landings.

[Query]

I asked a USFSA test judge today, who said doing any of the rotation on ice, or letting the toe pick touch are all considered cheating.

If I undestood her right, a 1/4 turn cheat might be tolerated, with a -3 Grade Of Execution deduction, but a toe touch that stopped the glide across the ice would be unacceptable.

Or maybe I misunderstood. She was in a hurry.

Peggy Flemming and Dick Button, NBC TV commentators at a recent competition, said over 1/4 turn would downgrade a jump by one revolution. As qualification, Peggy played a judge in Blades of Glory :roll:, but AFAIK neither ever was. (OK,:twisted:, they have other qualifications; both were olympic champion freestyle skaters a long time ago.)

[dbny]

You are confusing things. The important words are "stopped the glide across the ice", which does not happen in a proper jump take off even though the toe pick is the last to leave the ice. Watch some less than accomplished skaters and you will see plenty of large toe scrapes on jump take offs. Those are a no no, but the toe pick is the last part of the blade to touch the ice on every jump take off. Try a bunny hop without rolling up to the toe first, but be prepared to land on your butt very hard if you are even a tad too far back on the blade.

[Schmeck]

You misunderstood the judge on the toe pick issue. Watch some less than accomplished skaters and you will see plenty of large toe scrapes on jump take offs. Those are a no no, but the toe pick is the last part of the blade to touch the ice on every jump take off. Try a bunny hop without rolling up to the toe first, but be prepared to land on your butt very hard if you are even a tad too far back on the blade.

Wish I had landed on my butt when I did my infamous bunny hop, bunny flop combination years ago, LOL Missed that toe pick and went down flat on my chest. Bruised both knees, one hip, opposite elbow, and tore all the muscles in my chest. Owwwwie!

I believe the toepick part being discussed is the difference between using the first tiny bit of the toepick on the way up the blade to transfer the backwards motion into vertical motion compared using the main region of the toepick to vault/propel oneself into the jump.

I have a couple of great books that show the arc a proper skating jump should follow - I'll see if I can get a good diagram online, or at least use the description in it.

[katz in boots]

Wish I had landed on my butt when I did my infamous bunny hop, bunny flop combination years ago, LOL Missed that toe pick and went down flat on my chest. Bruised both knees, one hip, opposite elbow, and tore all the muscles in my chest. Owwwwie!

Owwwwie indeed! Ah, the mere mention of bunny hops is enough to send shivers down the spine :lol: Except mine was meant to be a bunny hop with 1/2 turn landing backwards (copying someone else) and I missed the pick altogether. One of those cartoon "all body suspended in mid-air" moments which ended with my landing on the back of my head. Concussion, no skating for 2 weeks, bad headache, couldn't find words, very irritable.

Is the toe-pick the last thing that leaves the ice? You bettacha!

[Tennisany1]

You are confusing things. The important words are "stopped the glide across the ice", which does not happen in a proper jump take off even though the toe pick is the last to leave the ice. Watch some less than accomplished skaters and you will see plenty of large toe scrapes on jump take offs. Those are a no no, but the toe pick is the last part of the blade to touch the ice on every jump take off. Try a bunny hop without rolling up to the toe first, but be prepared to land on your butt very hard if you are even a tad too far back on the blade.

ITA. I have spent A LOT of money on lessons to make sure my dd's axel lands first on the toe pick with a nice glide out the back, rather than that lovely slam down on the flat blade. I can assure you all that landing on a flat blade make a racket you can hear in the stands and looks just as bad. The take off, as someone mentioned above, is also a roll through the toe and off the pick. Jumping and landing flat footed not only doesn't work very well, it is very bad for the old body.

[SkatEn]

Landing flat vs landing on toe picks -> pretty much everyone knows it's the second one. If you jump, try landing on flat all the time. Your knees, hips, and back will NOT thank you for it. Land on toe pick and roll back onto the edge right? Right.

Now, what the web is on about is the timing of the take off. Is the skater facing forward? Is it considered forward? Is it technically not a one-revolution jump? It's all those stuff that most of us know what is right but can't put the words to it.

I know it's called a backwards take off, but I also know that it's not really backwards because from slow-mo video, you can tell you're already turning.

It's just part of the jump, in my opinion. Some stuff just happens that way. You can't do it without having it that way. No arguments. The website just simply put words to the slow motion videos and then everyone got all WOW-ed that it's like that.

We still know how tough it is to get the darned Axel, the first double, and so on. The web doesn't make it any easier. Just perhaps, makes it less intimidating.

Oh and about pre-rotations, I think that the TS can tell when are you just turning on the ice and when are you really jumping. Like Caroline Zhang's loop, while I will call it a technique that needs work, I don't know how to identify the take off edge. You need to know where is the take off edge to draw a line and see if the landing fulfills the rotation requirement. I'm not a judge/TS and I'm just a skater who does (or tries to) what her coach says.

One thing I'm very sure though. The TS told me that the only jump that can be penalised is the toe-axel. It's one thing that judges look out for.