Tricky Situation With Adult Skater

[dbny]

There's an adult skater who sometimes comes to the public sessions where I work. She's passed Adult Bronze MIF and is getting ready to take the FS. My issue is that she is going around helping kids, and spending more than just a few minutes doing it. She says that she just likes to help, and I know that's true, but one of the ways I get new students is doing the same thing (I do it anyway, but it does sometimes get me a new student). She told me that the people she helps ask her for lessons, and she tells them she's not a coach and that there are good coaches available at the rink. Nevertheless, I feel like she's possibly interfering with my potential business, because anyone she has worked with (she's spending 15 to 20 minutes per kid - 5 min wouldn't bother me), is getting for free what they would have to pay me for. I don't think I can discuss it with her because I know she is easily offended, and if the skating director is not there at the time, I don't think there is much he can do either. Suggestions?

[Skittl1321]

My first thought is that if you do it too, you can't complain when someone else does. You just need to get there first, I suppose.

My second is that if you want to try to scare her away, point out the liability she is incuring. If someone were to get fall/ gethurt while she was helping them, even though she is not a coach as an adult and a "skater with experience" I think someone could easily turn on her.

[MQSeries]

It's a tricky situation for you. I can understand how you feel, because teaching skating is your livelyhood, but at the same time I don't think you have a right to say to someone "You can't give people skating advices during public session, because it hurts my potential business". It's a public session. People socialize, do whatever.

[slusher]

Tell her that you are a coach and you're looking for new students, and wouldn't it be great that when you get some new students that maybe she could be your unpaid helper and start to learn what it's like to be a (real) coach?

I would never suggest that she solicit for you ;)

[RachelSk8er]

I would think she's doing you and other coaches a favor. By spending a little individual time working with kids and showing them a thing or two, she's hooking them on skating. But she's not teaching private lessons, so if they want real private lessons, they will have to look elsewhere.

Otherwise, if someone chooses to spend their time at the rink helping others, I don't think it's really anone else's place to stop them. She has every right to do that if it's what she enjoys doing.

[lskater]

I help kids all the time on public sessions, but when they ask for lessons, I always point them to the coaches list....if they ask me how to do something, I'm not going to ignore them, that would stink.

[Query]

I do it too. A lot of skaters love to show each other how they were taught to do things, and a lot of skaters approach other skaters to ask how to do something. It's one of the few social aspects of this sport.

You might be able to get a a rink to post a policy barring such things - would make the rink a lot less friendly to ordinary skaters.

Anyway, I think beginners have most of their trouble because they don't realize they should lace tighter. Rental counters should explain that.

Why not wear a jcaket with this on the back in big letters:
Skating Coach
New Students Welcome

Or would that look too desperate?

OTOH, if you as a certified coach helps someone without first checking they have no coach, aren't you violating "professional ethics" rules?

[Skate@Delaware]

We run into this at my rink as well. People are allowed to coach during publics and if money is exchanged, the rink gets their commission HOWEVER if people just ask for help (i.e. no money changes hands AND the person teaching disclaims that they are not coaching/i.e. "a coach") then there is no rule against it. I get asked all the time and usually don't mind (I let them know if I am busy, plus I tell them they can take lessons either public or private from the excellent staff in house).

You really can't stop people from doing that on publics if there is no policy banning it.

What you could try is approaching her and ask her to direct the parents to the counter to inquire about private lessons (just in general).

[CoachPA]

Although frustrating to you, I agree with the many of the other posters on this one.

As long as she's not soliciting students or claiming to be a coach, both of which you stated she's not doing, then I really don't see any harm in her helping.

[dbny]

First, thank you all for your thoughtful replies! I've decided to leave it alone. I much prefer good will and lack of conflict where I work. Maybe someone who doesn't know her will step in, or the skating director might see her if she comes early enough.

My first thought is that if you do it too, you can't complain when someone else does.

I'm allowed to do it, and have been encouraged to do it in the past! I'm on the skating school staff.

I don't think you have a right to say to someone "You can't give people skating advices during public session, because it hurts my potential business". It's a public session. People socialize, do whatever.

I agree. The thing that bothers me is that she spends so much time with a single skater, that it might as well be a paid private lesson. I'm not quibbling about 5 or even 10 minutes, but past that, I feel she's stepping on my toes.

Tell her that you are a coach and you're looking for new students, and wouldn't it be great that when you get some new students that maybe she could be your unpaid helper and start to learn what it's like to be a (real) coach?

I would never suggest that she solicit for you ;)

We have known each other for many years and she knows I'm a coach and on staff at that particluar rink. I couldn't take her on as a helper - too much to go into here and now, but I could not do that. I do my own soliciting :D. There's nothing wrong with soliciting unless it's someone else's student. I had a coach get pissy with me and cause no end of trouble at another rink (when I was on staff there) because she saw me give my card to an adult skater who had had a lesson with her. Yes, I did that - because the adult skater had her first ever lesson with me, had lost my card, and asked me for it when she saw me again. She doesn't have a coach - but has lessons with various coaches as the mood takes her. We don't own our students!

I would think she's doing you and other coaches a favor. By spending a little individual time working with kids and showing them a thing or two, she's hooking them on skating. But she's not teaching private lessons, so if they want real private lessons, they will have to look elsewhere.

I agree, except, as I said above, it's not a little time. That wouldn't bother me at all.

I help kids all the time on public sessions, but when they ask for lessons, I always point them to the coaches list....if they ask me how to do something, I'm not going to ignore them, that would stink.

And she does do that - that's one of the things that makes it difficult - she is only doing what she enjoys, and she is trying to do it right.

Why not wear a jcaket with this on the back in big letters:

Skating Coach
New Students Welcome

OTOH, if you as a certified coach helps someone without first checking they have no coach, aren't you violating "professional ethics" rules?

All staff coaches have to wear skating school jackets that ID us.
The people I approach are clearly not taking lessons.

Occasionally, I'll offer to help someone who looks like they've never skated before, and they'll tell me they had a lesson with "x", whereupon, I'll apologize and say what a great coach "x" is. If I offer advice to anyone who seems to have had lessons, I begin with "Are you taking lessons?" BTW, I just lost two students, sisters, to a coach who jumped in when I was running late. Even though their English was pretty good, and they liked me (per the parents, and their behavior), if I spoke Russian, I wouldn't have lost them. IMO, that coach should have politely refused to sub for me without my permission, but the skating director would not support that. I'm not about to generate bad feelings in the place I love over something like that.

[LWalsh]

I'm not sure if I agree with all of the posts here. The PSA is fairly clear on ethics and free lessons are one of the things that are a no no. Now if the rink offers up a coach (any coach and allows all rink coaches to participate) for a free 10 minute lesson, that's a different story and they encourage things like that. Do they just let all coaches run out onto public sessions and try to get students? Just seems a bit of a gray area.

She can't be your unpaid helper because that would be soliciting for a coach. But you said that's not an option anyway.

I think I might approch the adult from a standpoint of insurance. It's one thing to offer help to a public session kid but when the kid starts following directions from an uninsured, unqualified person, the rink and that person would end up with a liability if an accident occurs. She should be told that anyway. I've seen too many accidents where the parent sues everyone.

LW

[Skate@Delaware]

I'm not sure if I agree with all of the posts here. The PSA is fairly clear on ethics and free lessons are one of the things that are a no no. Now if the rink offers up a coach (any coach and allows all rink coaches to participate) for a free 10 minute lesson, that's a different story and they encourage things like that. Do they just let all coaches run out onto public sessions and try to get students? Just seems a bit of a gray area.

She can't be your unpaid helper because that would be soliciting for a coach. But you said that's not an option anyway.

I think I might approch the adult from a standpoint of insurance. It's one thing to offer help to a public session kid but when the kid starts following directions from an uninsured, unqualified person, the rink and that person would end up with a liability if an accident occurs. She should be told that anyway. I've seen too many accidents where the parent sues everyone.

LW

This is a HUGE gray area...if the rink permits it (from an insurance standpoint) then there is nothing that can be done to ban it unless the rink steps in.

I know a coach (credentialed from PSA) cannot "give away" free lessons. As far as I know there is nothing prohibiting the general public from doing this as long as the rink permits it.

When I am asked for help (and I never offer unless there is a safety problem), I always ask if they are taking privates or public lessons. I don't want to step on anyone's toes. If they are taking lessons, I ask what they have been taught, usually the child has forgotten something and needs something demonstrated (3-turn etc).

[peanutskates]

Deleted...

[Stormy]

In short, the woman is definitely old enough to know better. If she's difficult with complying with your request, an argument that will never fail is - "You're barely FS level, what makes you think you're competent to teach anyone?" etc etc until she gets the message.

That's an awful message to send to her and rude to boot. Bronze MIF and Free isn't "barely FS".

Honestly, if this woman is on a public session you really have no rights. Public ice is public ice. If it was a club's freestyle session that's completely different. But even if you're on staff at the skating school, it dosen't matter on public ice. Then someone from the rink would have to step in. But if they don't have a problem with it, you shouldn't either, no matter how long she's spending with anyone. I understand how you can see how she might be "poaching" your potential business, but I guess I agree with the poster that said you need to get there first.

[jazzpants]

dbny: I would leave it alone. I mean... I occasionally would help out a fellow beginning skater on a public session... especially if they come up to me and ask me for help and I'm not busy at the time. But I always tell them if they want to learn how to skate to go thru the skating school.

If you must act in some way, well... if there's some way of suggesting to this adult skater that she suggests to skaters and parents of skaters to going thru the skating school (which is NOT soliciting, BTW!!! It's a perfectly acceptable answer given that you're not soliciting for a specific coach...but for the school itself...)... well, would that be an acceptable solution?

[CoachPA]

If you must act in some way, well... if there's some way of suggesting to this adult skater that she suggests to skaters and parents of skaters to going thru the skating school (which is NOT soliciting, BTW!!! It's a perfectly acceptable answer given that you're not soliciting for a specific coach...but for the school itself...)... well, would that be an acceptable solution?

I don't think that encouraging skaters to check out the skating program is soliciting persay but rather a way of promoting all the great programs that the rink has to offer. If through these programs skaters find themselves a coach, whether that coach be you or someone else involved with the club, then that was entirely their own doing, which did not involve solicitation of any sort.

[dbny]

First, thank you all for your thoughtful replies! I've decided to leave it alone. I much prefer good will and lack of conflict where I work. Maybe someone who doesn't know her will step in, or the skating director might see her if she comes early enough.


You guys feel free to go on about this, but as I already said quite clearly above - I am leaving it alone. I'm done with it; it does not bother me anymore, since I've decided on what I think is the best course of action.

[sk8lady]

It's an interesting issue, though--I run into it all the time! There's a gal (adult) at my rink who is a bit "off" (and I don't mean just skating) and is at about a Basic 4 level and is constantly giving skating advice to others, including my students (and not in an exchanging ideas way--in a "you're doing that wrong, I will show you the right way" way). Because of her issues I don't want to tear her head off but I have had to say things like, "Did you know so-and-so was my student? I appreciate your trying to help her but it's very confusing to her to get two different sets of advice." If I see her talking to my students (or anyone else who starts looking stressed) I'll often go over and jump into the conversation and say, "Gee, I always teach it this way!" or something like that but I'm not really sure what to do when I see her doing the same thing to little kids or new adult skaters. It's a tough issue.

BTW, as far as I know, "giving away" lessons is discouraged by the PSA but I don't think it's forbidden under the ethics rules--in this economy I'm inclined to think of giving a couple minutes to a kid who asks how to spin as volunteer work which might encourage a kid to take group lessons!

[Skittl1321]

BTW, as far as I know, "giving away" lessons is discouraged by the PSA but I don't think it's forbidden under the ethics rules--in this economy I'm inclined to think of giving a couple minutes to a kid who asks how to spin as volunteer work which might encourage a kid to take group lessons!

It also only governors those who are IN the PSA (and to some extent skating coaches who are not, but whose skate schools who have asked for the same code). PSA ethics in no way at all govern the general public, so the woman from the original post isn't at all in any violation of them. It would be like if I walked around outside HR block asking people if they wanted me to do their taxes. The advice might not be as good, but it's cheaper... you decide.

[slusher]

I'm intrigued by the original situation, in that, the person receiving the free "lesson", do you think they realize what they're getting? Do they expect that when they show up to skate that someone is always going to help them?

It might be worthwhile to talk to your skating director and see if there is a way that the skaters could be refreshed on who are certified coaches of the rink and how it works to get a Lesson.

I giggled at the idea of skating around with a big flashing billboard of a coat that said COACH on the back, but there's a bit of truth in that, sometimes people just don't know what a lesson is, or what a coach does.

[Skate@Delaware]

This brings to mind an incident that happened about two weeks ago during a freestyle session at my rink. One young girl (about 8-9 years old) was skating and had asked me for advice on doing a 3-turn; she forgot how to do them. I asked her who her coach was. She said she was only in group lessons. I showed her then watched her struggle through it once then she proceed to work on her "jumps" (which were really something else KWIM?).... She then stated that "she was a really good skater and was now teaching her friends how to skate."

8O

I'm sure she is teaching them all of her bad habits as well.

[RachelSk8er]

Some of you may find what I'm about to say selfish, but the concept of people "helping" people (as in total strangers) on public sessions kind of does get on my nerves for one main reason.

My rink has public session basically all day, every day, as did the rink where I skated in grad school, and it's never crowded (and often you can even control the music). Some coaches give lessons on this time. I will not skate on this ice unless I'm in a pinch because I am ALWAYS approached by people, mostly kids and the occasional adult, who see that I'm a good skater, come up and talk to me, and expect me to spend my time teaching/showing them stuff because other adults have done it for them in the past. It's usually the same couple of kids and an adult at my current rink (the kids are home schooled and there ALL THE TIME), and I know the few adults who are around who they probably do get help from (they're mid level beginner-bronze or purely recreational skaters who are either retired, don't work during the day, skate during their lunch, or whatever). If I were just there on my free time, having a good time, there to exercise and socialize like many of our skaters around during the day, I wouldn't mind it. But for those of you who know me and know what my schedule is like, when I have time to make it to the rink, it is VERY limited. I am there for me and I am there to work, not socialize and mess around.

I don't like having to look like a mean person because I don't want to spend my very limited skating time (and the money I am spending to be on the ice) helping others. I don't mind other people doing this if that's what they enjoy doing while they are at the rink. But I think the fact that some adults at my rink do this has set the "expectation" to some kids (or other adults even) who regularly attend public sessions that any adult on the ice who knows how to skate will help them or their kid out for free.

[dbny]

I don't like having to look like a mean person because I don't want to spend my very limited skating time (and the money I am spending to be on the ice) helping others.

You don't have to be mean or even be perceived as mean. When I work the weekend sessions, there are always kids who come to me and ask for help. If I happen to be free for a few minutes, I do help them a bit, but most of the time I have to turn them down. If you do it nicely, with a brief explanation, there's no harm done. "I'm sorry, honey, I can't help you right now, I have to work/practice."

One reason I've decided to let this particular matter go, is that I love helping people learn to skate. I'm very lucky that I can coach and earn money doing it, and also that I work in a place that encourages picking up students on the public sessions. Many of the students that I've given a few lessons to have signed up for our LTS program, so what I'm doing is good for everyone's business. I know that the adult skater I've written about (complained about here) also loves to help. She does not want to be a coach and she truly means no harm. I would not want to be the one to deprive her of that pleasure. If I feel annoyed about it when it happens again (which it will), I'm just going to look the other way and remind myself that I like working in a pleasant environment.

[Skate@Delaware]

There is nothing mean about telling people that you are "training." If they get put off then that is their problem, not yours. I say it as well and I don't believe anyone has gotten huffy or ticked about it. I just say, "I'm sorry, I can't help you right now, I'm busy training for my next competition" and leave it at that. If they keep bugging me, I say it again, put my headphones on and ignore them.

[Query]

1. I had another reason for suggesting the SKATING COACH advertisement on the back of a jacket.

Many rinks ask coaches to wear a jacket distinctive to that rink - but new skaters don't realize that's what it is. Any of us who no longer stumble on every other step are sometimes asked by complete beginners if we are coaches.

2. For those who love teaching, there are many rinks that have volunteer programs where uncertified teachers can help. The one I volunteered with (Fort Dupont, DC http://fdia.org) is one of several in the DC/MD/VA that have such programs. Some of them (e.g., Cabin John, MD; Mount Vernon, VA) set up apprentice programs so the most promising volunteers can become real coaches at those rinks. Many provide training for the assistant instructors.

(Perhaps the O.P. could direct the helpful skater to such a program. Would get them out of the rink some of the time. But if they became a coach, they would still be competition. :lol:)

Even for those of us not good enough to become real coaches, teaching is a lot of fun. You also learn to deal with various disabilities and behavior patterns, and adapt to different learning styles. It may help decide whether teaching is something you'd like to do.

BTW, I've never tried it but most hockey coaches are uncertified or minimally certified volunteers. Becoming a certified hockey coach involves less time and money then a figure skating coach. Very few hockey coaches get paid, but if you love to teach, you can.

[jazzpants]

Well, when I was a returning skater, I was a very beginner skater and an ice guard helped me to skate. I took to him helping me okay. But eventually he suggested that I go to LTS to take lessons and I did. :)

These days I really don't have the time to help skaters to skate. I have found that a few times that I was approached, I had a very good way of telling the kid that I'm training.

Often when I'm doing public sessions, my primary coach is there and he's yelling at his students to do stuff (well the speakers are kinda loud but he's LOUDER!!! :twisted: :lol: ) So when I get approached, I nicely tell said kid "See that man over there with the big red jacket? That's my coach... and he's gonna yell at me like that if I don't keep practicing my jumps!!!" Gets them every time!!! (Actually, it's sorta the truth b/c primary coach has skated up to me a few times to tell me "Less talking, more skating!!!" Once stopped me from saying hello to an old friend too. :twisted: No, it's NOT during my lesson!!!)

I do enjoy my primary coach's company b/c he aspires me to skate but now I can say that he's also my blocker for those moments when I really have to practice!!! :bow: Also, these days I don't get approached as of late b/c I haven't been at the Monday night session. (B/c lately I have been taking lessons on MUCH saner Monday lunch time sessions!!!)

[RachelSk8er]

1. I had another reason for suggesting the SKATING COACH advertisement on the back of a jacket.

Many rinks ask coaches to wear a jacket distinctive to that rink - but new skaters don't realize that's what it is. Any of us who no longer stumble on every other step are sometimes asked by complete beginners if we are coaches.

2. For those who love teaching, there are many rinks that have volunteer programs where uncertified teachers can help. The one I volunteered with (Fort Dupont, DC http://fdia.org) is one of several in the DC/MD/VA that have such programs. Some of them (e.g., Cabin John, MD; Mount Vernon, VA) set up apprentice programs so the most promising volunteers can become real coaches at those rinks. Many provide training for the assistant instructors.

(Perhaps the O.P. could direct the helpful skater to such a program. Would get them out of the rink some of the time. But if they became a coach, they would still be competition. :lol:)

Even for those of us not good enough to become real coaches, teaching is a lot of fun. You also learn to deal with various disabilities and behavior patterns, and adapt to different learning styles. It may help decide whether teaching is something you'd like to do.

BTW, I've never tried it but most hockey coaches are uncertified or minimally certified volunteers. Becoming a certified hockey coach involves less time and money then a figure skating coach. Very few hockey coaches get paid, but if you love to teach, you can.

Special Olympics/Adaptive LTS programs are also always in need of volunteers. I did this a few years ago and it was fun (but unfortunately it now infringes on the only time I am able to skate for myself). I usually worked with the more advanced kids, some of whom were about pre-pre/prelim free and learning prelim and pre-bronze dances. But some of the kids with greater disabilities need their own individual volunteer/instructor to hold them up, push them around in these stands that almost looked like giant exer-saucers, or just be around them at all times. All these volunteers really need are basic skating abilities and in some cases don't even really need to "teach" but just be there for the kids.

[RoaringSkates]

1. I had another reason for suggesting the SKATING COACH advertisement on the back of a jacket.

Many rinks ask coaches to wear a jacket distinctive to that rink - but new skaters don't realize that's what it is. Any of us who no longer stumble on every other step are sometimes asked by complete beginners if we are coaches.

At one rink where I go for group lessons and a public session for my daughter, I know that many people there - including rink staff working the restaurant counter - think I'm on the staff. I can skate the basics, and I wear my "USFS" hoodie to the rink. Apparently, that's all it takes. ;)

The fact that all the staff people are wearing bright red jackets that say "staff" on the back, and I'm wearing a black hoodie, does not seem to matter.

[Skate@Delaware]

At one rink where I go for group lessons and a public session for my daughter, I know that many people there - including rink staff working the restaurant counter - think I'm on the staff. I can skate the basics, and I wear my "USFS" hoodie to the rink. Apparently, that's all it takes. ;)

The fact that all the staff people are wearing bright red jackets that say "staff" on the back, and I'm wearing a black hoodie, does not seem to matter.
Sometimes, all it takes is being a much better skater than everyone else!!!

[kayskate]

Just have to share a couple of experiences on this topic.

Before I turned pro, I helped ppl on the ice if they asked for it, but only for a few mins. At the time I was taking lessons. Often adult skaters helped each other even if we were taking from different coaches. I also helped kids I did not know.

Now that I am a coach, I am very careful. If anyone asks for help, I make a quick comment, very rarely more than a min or 2. If it seems appropriate (haven't seen the person w another coach or they say they don't have a coach) I give a card. In general, I try to avoid getting involved. if a person is not taking a lesson w me, I do not want to be responsible if the person gets hurt. Sorry if that sounds selfish. I carry insurance, which is req'd for my coaching. i never want anyone to get hurt, but it happens. I just don't want it to happen when I am not officially working.

Recently, I gave a single student a "group lesson". No one else showed up for the group, so she was alone. After I finished, another coach who had the same person for group lessons before, gave the student about 10 min of free instruction. I was furious. I had just worked w the student, who was in my class. Grp students tend to get passed from teacher to teacher throughout a season as scheduling demands. So this is probably a gray area. In any case, I was not sure what the rules are here, but I chose making a stink was not worth the trouble.

Kay

[dbny]

Recently, I gave a single student a "group lesson". No one else showed up for the group, so she was alone. After I finished, another coach who had the same person for group lessons before, gave the student about 10 min of free instruction. I was furious. I had just worked w the student, who was in my class. Grp students tend to get passed from teacher to teacher throughout a season as scheduling demands. So this is probably a gray area. In any case, I was not sure what the rules are here, but I chose making a stink was not worth the trouble.

Kay

I've been there too. Most of the time, it isn't worth the trouble, and long lasting ill feelings that can result too.

At my rink we teach a large groups of girls on Sun mornings, then they have half an hour of free time, during which we are allowed to give private lessons to those in the program. This program is in its third year, and a lot of the girls have been with it that long, so many of us know most of the girls. They always come over after class to ask for additional help, and I've had to start telling them I can't do more than a few minutes each, because then it would look like a private lesson. I wish some of the parents would up and pay already! Most of the girls are car pooled to the rink, so many of the parents are not there.

[kayskate]

I've been there too. Most of the time, it isn't worth the trouble, and long lasting ill feelings that can result too.


My thoughts exactly on that particular situation. However, had someone pulled something similar on that coach, she would have made a scene to that would have been remembered for a long time.

Kay